Pointman

The "guarantees" over the years add up to a colossal amount. This is a warning to us - governments should not run business. If the mines are nationalised then they will also be seeking "guarantees" every year.
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!!Sinudeity!!

Just privatise SAA already. This nationalised BS is costing us R5 BILLION every 3 years.
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!!Sinudeity!!

Im guessing as soon as the billion rand loan goes through, the management will pay themselves big bonusses for 'reaching their targets'.
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Shredder

How the hell did we get into this mess?? I wonder if we should blame this on apartheid.
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MorenaWaPolelo

Cheryl Carolus and her board failed dissmaly and the fired themselves before they were fired good for them they have cost the country 5 billion and the new boards will obviously cost the country 10 billion unless they know they prove me wrong. This SAA is a huge risk and a very costly entity perhaps they should consider a PPP or shut the d.amn thing, its ran by idiotts who care only about lining pockets and come with excuses like petrol price went up, we all knew that petrol is gonna go up how come they did not know?
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MorenaWaPolelo

Shredder
How the hell did we get into this mess?? I wonder if we should blame this on apartheid
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ITS BECAUSE OF APARTHEID COMRADE N PETROL PRICE IS ALSO BECAUSE OF APARTHEID HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA LOL..............
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!!Sinudeity!!

Based on the bailouts that SAA received in 3 years. R10 billion could have been paid off on the eToll loan if the money wasnt pumped into this waste of money.

Who even flies SAA anymore?
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Tronn

Morenapolela-the biggest joke is that SAA was profitable during Apartheid and the Education system and Health system was not in a crisis and unemployment was lower and the petrol price was lower etc etc etc ....need I go?
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Pointman

@Tronn - SAA was never profitable during apartheid. It received a bailout regularly. So did the farmers and Afrikaans owned banks.
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TrueSAN

I wonder if all of the idiots that called SAA a success story isgoing to detract their statements or still live with blinkers.
The reality people is that the goverment cannot even run an antfarm successfully. How the hell can people think they can run the mines. SAA is a small entity compared to the mining industry
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Shredder

@Pointman
@Tronn - SAA was never profitable during apartheid. It received a bailout regularly. So did the farmers and Afrikaans owned banks.
=========================================================================
I smell someone who worships failure.
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Tsar-Rasputin

Trevor Manuel is under utilised, appoint him as a board member, together with former President T Man as well as former Priemier of Gauteng Mbhazima and I guarantee you the SAA will turn around
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Shredder

@Tsar-Rasputin
Trevor Manuel is under utilised, appoint him as a board member, together with former President T Man as well as former Priemier of Gauteng Mbhazima and I guarantee you the SAA will turn around
===========================================================================
+1. Good thought.
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Mokwepa

lets talk about Khaya
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DJ-Winner

We are trying to nationalised, white people are crying for privatisation. Privatisation will not happen. About 60% of SA economy is already owned by Britain. Enough about colonization. White people must chill, privatisation will not happen....
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siya0505

AGAIN... Eskom needs a bail out, my taxes pay up.... SAA needs a bail out, my taxes pay up....when i need a bail out, court orders...judgements...blacklisting... Democracy is messed up!!
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LeparaThePresident

So, now we do not need any resignation and a hand shakes. You know this cadre deployment is hindering services,productions and profit. There is no SoE that is working on surplus profit. They are either in deficit or their operations are in a shamble.Take SABC for a case in point, lot of incompetent and unqualified managers are leading the Corporation including the clueless Chairman Dr Ben Ngubane and his vindictive GCEO.
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LeparaThePresident

@siya0505
AGAIN... Eskom needs a bail out, my taxes pay up.... SAA needs a bail out, my taxes pay up....when i need a bail out, court orders...judgements...blacklisting... Democracy is messed up!!
+++++++++++++++++++
True my brother.
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ShadesOfGrey

Don't blame democracy Siya, democracy works just fine - the people got exactly what and who they voted for. No political party in their right mind would rape and pillage their country in this way if they were at all unsure about getting elected next term.

However we don't really have a democracy, we effectively have a single party state, where the only problem for those in power is to grease the right palms to ensure that they can keep feeding at the trough and get fat from our tax rands.

So don't blame democracy, or apartheid or whatever, blame those who are actually responsible - the voters who keep on voting the same and yet expect things to be different. According to some that is the very definition of madness.
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cocolucho

@sin
Was that really mac's number from yesterday cos I've been really tempted to give him a piece of my mind,but didn't fearing the consequences.
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MommaC

Pointman

Yes, SAA has always been a burden to taxpayers but the farmers weren't 'bailed out'. They got low interest loans but the government never actually saved any of them if they were failing.
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P4T

Government should stop peddling this same lies year in and year out. The truth is that SAA's business model was never designed to make sustainable profits. This airline will forever be needing bailouts from Treasury. Even Treasury knows this, hence there is always a funding provision for SAA, Denel, and other loss making parastatals in every Treasury's MTEF's budget vote.

The changing of board members is just a smoke screen. Its just there to make the looting legitimate.

Government, ain't all taxpayers that are fools ok? Just so you know.
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The-Vince

They should just sell SAA to me...! will show dem how shey should have runned da damn thang. they always get bailouts for miss managing the funds. Clearly this SAA is not profitable at all. The repercussions of hiring incompetent staff.
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Tasto

R20billion parked @IMF
Zuma wants R2billion
Every new president bails out SAA?

Damn ppl flying low cost airline be very scared of the government, first it was Nationwide engine falling-off in flite 1time engine failing in air everytime SAA is in trouble!!
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Lehido

SAA, SABC,TRANSNET........The list goes ON.....I think some people are using this parastatals to laundre money, i maybe wrong but I have a strong feeling.....This companies always needs bail outs, but yet they make profits with their operations......

Why is it that other government departments dont need bail-outs?, Yet they are not in the business of making profit....they even under-spent their budgets sometimes........
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!!Sinudeity!!

cocolucho - Its the number I found from the government listing. Havent tried it myself. But his email addie definiltey works. Give him a call from a payphone, or gmail (If you have credits loaded).

Cell: 079 879 3203
E-mail: mac@po.gov.za
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Danielrjvvuren

How on earth? R5 Billion with a B right? So then you get all these people who cry fowl when their is no service delivery and no RDP housing and such but they keep on forking money into a model that clearly doesn't work and then quintessentially they turn to the citizen to help bail them out. If this is the situation each tax paying individual should get subsidized flights. A perfect example of state not able to run a very lucrative business and running it into degradation.
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Dzel

To all those that are argue SAA needs to be privatised you need to understand the strategic importance of a national carrier to South Africa. SAA is the gateway to our country, through SAA were are able to ferry people in and out of the country for various reasons including but not limited to business, sport and tourism. At the back of these activities we facilitate new business ventures, explore opportunities, bring tourists to our country that in turn will spend money in our economy and support local business activity.

Whilst it is true there are private and national carriers servicing major routes these are in it for profit so the number of seats available per route will be determined by the profitability and demand in a particular route and prices subject to laws of supply and demand plus the cost to income ratios. If a route is not profitable enough private airlines will not be keen to service that route. If that is the case then we would be cut off from that market, a market which may be strategic for other reasons be they economic or political in nature.

We as a country need to ensure stable point of entry and means to get to and fro South Africa. It is a mistake to look at SAA’s Profit $ Loss or its Balance Sheet without understanding or appreciating its strategic importance. I am glad SA Airlink operates throughout Africa because we cannot call ourselves a successful country if we are closed off to the rest of the world particularly Africa and to be honest Africa needs and deserves safe and reliable airlines and not the death traps that have become a regular feature on our skies.

Whatever it takes and however much is needed to keep SAA flying it is a worthy investments because it connects us to the world and keeps our economy and tourism sectors going. We make far more in revenue than the R 5bn bailout going to SAA.

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LeparaThePresident

@Lehido
SAA, SABC,TRANSNET........The list goes ON.....I think some people are using this parastatals to laundre money, i maybe wrong but I have a strong feeling.....This companies always needs bail outs, but yet they make profits with their operations......

Why is it that other government departments dont need bail-outs?, Yet they are not in the business of making profit....they even under-spent their budgets sometimes........
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Few goverment depts are of strategic operations like Public Works & Treasury, they controls most of the fiscus allocated to other dept including SoE, so, when operations cost is low and they seem to be making profit, it is not profit as such, its just rollback of funds so that expenditures and cost can look to be balanced on the statement of financial status of those company. The truth is they are violating the very own rules they set. PFMA and Treasury Act alway not complied to.

Most of bail out loans comes from DTI and Goverment Pension Fund, they chase Brian Molefe the former CEO of Pension Fund cause he knows his fudiriary responsebility when coming to PF money.
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MommaC

In all fairness, there isn't a single National carrier that is a profitable operation, They are status symbols, not money generators
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DA-DBN-GUY

DJ-Winner
We are trying to nationalised, white people are crying for privatisation. Privatisation will not happen. About 60% of SA economy is already owned by Britain. Enough about colonization. White people must chill, privatisation will not happen

You dim wit!! This is what will continually happen with nationalisation or havent you noticed yet. SAA gets bailed out every fukken year with OUR tax money while the governmnet fills positions in state owned enterprises with incompetent, crooked cadres. I think you will probably find 60% of our economy is owned by China. You need a serious wake call buddy!!! The anc cant control SAA and now you want them to take over the mines that have a direct impact on our economy. You went to school in Limpopo didnt you. DUM @ss
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LeparaThePresident

@Dzel, Are you saying its ok or its a good strategy to operate a business on a loss? The point you are making are fairly understandable, but the core to every business is the bottom line. Be it NGO or what ever business. SAA is operating base on the Capital it has, that means these capital must inturn bring something back. It does not help to connect ourself strategically to all strategic places be it in Africa or abroad Africa. The problem here Dzel is the Human Capita these Strategic Operations that is SAA,Transnet,Eskom,Denel etc has. If there would be a competent human capita that understand the basic simple principle of business, " That when you put in capital in business as investment there are two risks associated with it, either you make profit or loss. So, the human capita that are asigned those strategic post are just plain useless and seem to not care whether business is going forward or not. Lets change the mind set of these people first then we can have a mandate that these SoE are suppose to be doing.

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DA-DBN-GUY

DZEL

I disagree strongly with your logic. Yes SAA is our national carrier but what good is having an airline that cannot sustain itself and load the board of directors with incompetent cardes out to make money for themselves? Every single government owned enterprise has to be bailed out every year with our tax money. How does this seem to make sense to you? A bail out implies that the company is running at a huge loss and needs more than it currently makes to function?
This is what is on the cards should mines be nationalised. How will that benefit this country? How do you reckon by throwing money at these state enterprises that we are going to "facilitate new business ventures, explore opportunities, bring tourists to our country that in turn will spend money in our economy and support local business activity" Surely by spending billions on the different enterprises we are losing more opportunitities than we will ever gain? What of our image abroad? Constantly bailing out state enterprises is not good for a countries image. And you cant put a price on image.


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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

The problem comes that when you are faced with costing your private flights. SAA's rates are so high to accommodate their already flailing strategy, when there are so many cheaper options to choose from. We live in a society that is not closed to the rest of the world. Even British Airways is cheaper to fly from DBN to JHB than our own SAA and that should not be the case.

If we are to invest they must make the investment worth while. Why do you think they are in such deficits? Why is no one investing in SAA? Simply because they are a sinking ship and no sane investor will put money close to them because it seems at face value there is no return on investment.
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Pointman

@MommaC - Yes, SAA has always been a burden to taxpayers but the farmers weren't 'bailed out'. They got low interest loans but the government never actually saved any of them if they were failing.

What happened is that the farmers were given low interest loans to capitalise. When it came to election time, the loans were written off by the National Party. They got their farms and operating capital for free. Bail out or sop - same thing.
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Fred55

Gigaba is a Zooma man, he is stuffing the board with Zooma men. Watch and see how they find ways to rape the R5 billion loan, which is our tax payers money.
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LeparaThePresident

@MommaC
In all fairness, there isn't a single National carrier that is a profitable operation, They are status symbols, not money generators
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but @MommaC even though they are not money generator, they are not suppose to operate on huge loss. They should understand that the money they are given its TAX PAYERS 's and should be treated as such. That means PFMA and Treasury Act should at all cost be an oversight to measure themselves.
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Dzel

DA-DBN-GUY

SAA gets bailed out every fukken year with OUR tax money while the governmnet fills positions in state owned enterprises with incompetent, crooked cadres. ....The anc cant control SAA and now you want them to take over the mines that have a direct impact on our economy.
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Cool down, take a pause.

You are confusing two different industries with totally different fundamentals here. Firstly I have just explained why we need SAA from a strategic point of view but you also have to understand why the airline industry is a tough industry to be in. Costs tend to be high and volatile in this industry; fuel ids the biggest contributor to costs. You will know the fuel industry is volatile and subject to fluctuations so keeping a lid on costs is tough as drivers are largely imported, a bomb goes off in Lybia and fuel costs sky rocket. Then there are associated costs like landing costs, parking costs and others so it becomes a game of balancing many factors which gets more difficult because your revenue is determined by the number of bums on seats, the fewer passengers you have.

We’ve seen low cost carriers come into the market and vanish quicker than you can say Velvet Sky because striking that balance is not easy at all. Internationally you have times when everyone goes through a tough time and only those operators that are well geared survive. Coleman Andrews led SAA through relative profitable times but his success was at the back of selling off assets so naturally P&L looked good but assets in the BS were shrinking so that success was artificial, it does not take a genius to figure out what the impact was going to be when you have fewer planes under your name.

One needs to judge SAA from a sober position, immediately assuming poor management is to blame is not wise but yes Khaya Nqula wasted money and he has been removed as a consequence and is now facing legal action for his misappropriation of funds but we also have to be objective on this one.

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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

Your argument again is flawed. There is no strategic value from keeping around a dead horse. If a horse can not plow my fields anymore because it has no front legs is there any strategic reason to keep it? What else but poor management can be blamed here? How can the other providers be profitable. If it was situational like you suggest it would in the end affect all the airlines not just one. Poor management is the main cause. You claim sobriety but it seems you argument is off track.
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WarrenG

South Africa cannot afford to keep throwing $$$ at such a poorly run business. Govt must cut them free. Next time...
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DA-DBN-GUY

DZEL

Objective HOW exactly. A bail out is a bail out is a bail out. SAA just happens to take the biggest chunk. I understand the importance of an airline but you cannot justify yearly bail outs. The SAA board was told they would not receive a bail out until such time as they gave Treasury a plan on how they plan to turn around the airline. To my knowledge this hasnt been done and a large number of the board has resigned. You contradict yourself by saying you cant blame the management but then sya re-appointing Khaya was not a good choice given his track record. Where is the turn around plan? Rather get a board who know what they are doing and have the airline at heart instead of appointing memebers with dubious pasts.SAA has been going through a tough time since 1994 dude.
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LeparaThePresident

@Dzel
You are confusing two different industries with totally different fundamentals here. Firstly I have just explained why we need SAA from a strategic point of view but you also have to understand why the airline industry is a tough industry to be in. Costs tend to be high and volatile in this industry; fuel ids the biggest contributor to costs. You will know the fuel industry is volatile and subject to fluctuations so keeping a lid on costs is tough as drivers are largely imported, a bomb goes off in Lybia and fuel costs sky rocket. Then there are associated costs like landing costs, parking costs and others so it becomes a game of balancing many factors which gets more difficult because your revenue is determined by the number of bums on seats, the fewer passengers you have.
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Dzel my brother you are totally wrong. First every business when it starts there is what we call a business plan. In this business plan which if often called the blue print of buisness all the costs, be it salary,associative cost, skunk cost, fluctuations as variable cost are discusssed and assessed. Then there a plan to get what capital to balance those cost. The point we are making here Dzel is why can't SAA sustain itself, not necessarilly make a huge profit of R500 million. But the sustaninability of it. Any business Dzel that it cannot self sustain whether its a national symbol, strategic, should be deemed unfit to operate and close shops. Plain and simple. No excuse.
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MommaC

Pointman

????? when did that happen ????
All my life there were farmers losing their farms in the Northern Transvaal area. My uncle's farm never had a 'writeoff' either. He came really close to losing the farm when they had foot 'n mouth in the 1970s but all he got from the government of the time was a payout which covered farm salaries for two months.
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Danielrjvvuren

DZEL

I think you use the word strategic but do not comprehend its true implications so let us take the easiest model to explain Porters 5 forces model. It is a model that looks at the strategic development of a industry using as the name sugest5 forces namely

1- rivals
2- bargaining power of suppliers
3- bargaining power of buyers
4- new entry threats
5- substitute products

Again there are many better ways but this is the easiest so let us see strategically what SAA is doing or not doing. Let us debate strategy on these lines then.


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MommaC

LeparaThePresident

I'm not so happy about it myself but it is the truth. All the national carriers of the world are regularly bailed out by their governments. It has always been like that. It dates back to the early days of commercial flights when having a fleet of airplanes was a big deal for a country - a pride thing
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LeparaThePresident

@DA-DBN-GUY
DZEL

Objective HOW exactly. A bail out is a bail out is a bail out. SAA just happens to take the biggest chunk. I understand the importance of an airline but you cannot justify yearly bail outs. The SAA board was told they would not receive a bail out until such time as they gave Treasury a plan on how they plan to turn around the airline. To my knowledge this hasnt been done and a large number of the board has resigned. You contradict yourself by saying you cant blame the management but then sya re-appointing Khaya was not a good choice given his track record. Where is the turn around plan? Rather get a board who know what they are doing and have the airline at heart instead of appointing memebers with dubious pasts.SAA has been going through a tough time since 1994 dude. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

True my brother Dzel is not understanding the intrinsic value of a " Sustainable Business" we are not asking for exponential profit but a simple balance statement of finacial position and the status of its balance sheet. That is all, we do not want to dwell of who misuses what?

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Dzel

LeparaThePresident

@Dzel, Are you saying its ok or its a good strategy to operate a business on a loss?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not necessarily a good strategy but sometimes you have to balance key performance measures which cannot be always quantified in Rands and cents or maybe quantifying derived benefit is not as straight forward as you guys want it to be. Tourism for example tends to be tail heavy with businesses that benefit more being hotels, restaurants, tour operators, etc so when you look at the accumulated benefit it far outweighs the cost. With business operations not only are we looking at money in the till but we are talking business opportunity, employment opportunities etc so it may cost us R 1,000 per head to bring a tourist in over and above the cost of the ticket but if that tourist pours R 20,000 into the economy then surely that is a win. If the tourist does not come to our country because we do not have a cost effective national carrier that is a nett of R 19,000 we are losing out on. Do the math guys.

Of course you’d want self-sustainable enterprises that is why we need to recoup as much as we can as at the end of the day this is not a charity but a business. To that effect SAA is strong in key markets and charges the going rate in line with other carries but you also need to understand the airline business is one that is driven by volumes, volumes drives profit. What I am saying though is it is in the nature of the industry that some years you will make a profit and some years you make a loss, a loss that is incurred even when the most prudent principles are applied and when this happens government has to inject cash to SAA otherwise it will eventually go bust; the question we should be asking is does a bankrupt and out of business SAA serve our interests better and if this is the case who will fill in the void left by SAA?

Which is the better of the two evils?

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MissBhakajuju

Can all S.A citizens get a R2000 once off Cheque-nyana this coming December.... just to console them... Please Government !!!! South African only !!!!
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LeparaThePresident

@MommaC
LeparaThePresident

I'm not so happy about it myself but it is the truth. All the national carriers of the world are regularly bailed out by their governments. It has always been like that. It dates back to the early days of commercial flights when having a fleet of airplanes was a big deal for a country - a pride thing

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Then if the status quo is never gonna change , why are people so miffed about Malema wanting to President of SA. One size fits all criterion.

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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel
On Strategy:
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/you-keep-using-those-words.jpg
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MommaC

LeparaThePresident

I'm sorry but what the hell does the podgy purple pedi have to do with SAA?
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Danielrjvvuren

"Not necessarily a good strategy but sometimes you have to balance key performance measures which cannot be always quantified in Rands and cents or maybe quantifying derived benefit is not as straight forward as you guys want it to be"

Ok Ok OK hold up there. So Business should not be Quantified(counted being the root word) in the amount of money it makes but the what then? Because then we are moving to Qualitative(quality being the root word). What BUSINESS strategy would not be quantified in the turn over or even just the sustainable profit it makes? Thats no strategy at all.
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DA-DBN-GUY

Dzel

You are basing your argument on IF's and not realities. You also have to realise that tourists come to this country via their own National Carriers and not necessarily SAA. You injecting R5billion into an airline that is in reality the only airline bringing in tourists. IF that were the case I doubt i would have a problem. All the SAA flights I have ever been on have NEVER been full. Why? Bcos they are expensive and as pointed out by another blogger BA flights are cheaper than SAA. Dont you think SAA should also mayber consolidate flights and get butts in seats by being competitive? The operate Mango as well which is really not as cheap as Kulula or 1Time. Your management will dictate how the company is run and as we can see the SAA management has not had their hands on the reins in quite a while and it is those who cannot afford to fly nor reap the benefits of tourist spending that end up bailing out the airline. Is that fair or right?
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Dzel

DA-DBN-GUY

I disagree strongly with your logic. Yes SAA is our national carrier but what good is having an airline that cannot sustain itself and load the board of directors with incompetent cardes out to make money for themselves? Every single government owned enterprise has to be bailed out every year with our tax money.
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No, not all state enterprises. Eskom is a strategic operation so one needs to balance profits with accessibility and affordability. Denel is a waste of state funds and should be sold off. SABC is a tricky one in that you need a platform on which government communicates with its electorate but politicians tend to turn public broadcasters into their personal mouth piece. I could go on and list all enterprises but the point is with each enterprise you have to look at merits and demerits of each case before making a call.

I am all for privatisation where it makes sense but we need to be wary of the logic and motivation for each case. Take Sasol for example; should we privatise our energy needs?

How about Iscor, we privatised that and are now held hostage by the Mittals of this world in the market place. We saw what the impact of that privatisation was when we needed to build stadia.

The there is mining where the word nationalisation is used loosely therefore the logic gets lost in translation. I’d like to think of equity sharing as a better term. Mineral resources are capital to the mining houses without which there can never be profits, government hold these on our behalf therefore they should be considered as capital contribution to operations so a stake in the companies is warranted and dividends should be payable to rightful owners of this capital which are citizens of the nation.

Back to SAA; you speak of cadres who are enriching themselves, care to name them and what their transgressions are so we know what we are talking about?

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KAWUKHONJWA

SAA's financial crisis since begun to be published as earlier as our democracy inception up to date still is unfinished story.One wouldn't say the Apartheid GOVT was running the SAA successfully as it was non-transperant government. Also the regime generated its revenue from many injustice tax practices,like hut tax and hunting dogs taxes only from the blacks to fund its institutions, organizations and evil practices. I believe our GOVT needs to be realistically and skillfully running especial the commercial organizations, like SAA. However our GOVT needs trustworthy, experienced and skilled candidates to run the commercial organizations and its still needs a consistency of monitoring and evaluation of performances. The cricis of the SAA is long overdue and it must be dealt with thouroughly.
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Danielrjvvuren

Am I talking to a wall? I make valid points and they be ignored?
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The-Rothschilds

I don't agree with failing enterprises, but SAA is our national flag.

Whether its running at a loss or not, we need SAA to promote tourism in our country. We need a airline to conveniently bring tourists to our country, since tourism is a growing industry in our country and could become one of my major contributors to GDP within the next 50 years.

All airline are struggling. Oil is expensive. It is our responsibility as tax payers to keep our national flag afloat. In the name of defending our tourism industry.
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Dzel

DA BBN GUY

On mining;

1. Do you agree that natural resources are a key asset in the mining operation as equally important if not more important that capital from mining houses in the form of cash and / or other assets?

2. If we agree they are capital in the strict definition of the word don’t you think this warrants a stake be given to the holders of the this capital,

3. Does government not hold natural resources on behalf of its people,

4. If we agree on above points do you not agree that we as a nation are entitled – a strong word but one that is used deliberately – to profits generated or derived from mining operations?

Lets debate underlying principles first before moving on to how this is best achieved or which model makes the best sense.

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Danielrjvvuren

The-Rothschilds

Not you too... So we must pay the deficit funds to keep our pride? I would rather keep it in my wallet. Tourist to SA fly BA or Emirates then use cheap airlines to move between provinses. Never have I seen SAA promote tourism or a package deal to tourist. We can not keep it up out of pride that is just not sustainable. I have more pride in Mango then I do SAA.
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Danielrjvvuren

*provinces
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The-Rothschilds

Danielrjvvuren
The-Rothschilds

Not you too... So we must pay the deficit funds to keep our pride? I would rather keep it in my wallet. Tourist to SA fly BA or Emirates then use cheap airlines to move between provinses. Never have I seen SAA promote tourism or a package deal to tourist. We can not keep it up out of pride that is just not sustainable. I have more pride in Mango then I do SAA.
=======================================================================================

Alot of tourists fly SAA. trust me
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DA-DBN-GUY

DZEL

How about Khaya Nqula for a st art?

Hey if it works dont fix it but if it doesnt and costs us all money then it must be fixed. Again a bail out is a bail out no ma tter what enterprise. The fact is the government should be lo oking at why they need to be bailed out and re ctify the pr oblem.
ESKOM are incre asing ta rrifs annu ally and we still have load shredding, "tra nsformers and sub st ations bl ow ing up" So how do you justify inc reasing tarr ifs when custo mers are not rec eiving the ser vice they are paying for? then there is the theft of elec tricity that gets wri tten off, which we pay for with the in crease in tarr ifs. How do you ju stify that?
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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren

The problem comes that when you are faced with costing your private flights. SAA's rates are so high to accommodate their already flailing strategy, when there are so many cheaper options to choose from. We live in a society that is not closed to the rest of the world. Even British Airways is cheaper to fly from DBN to JHB than our own SAA and that should not be the case.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why not?

You are approaching this debate from a completely wrong angle therefore you’ll struggle to reach the right conclusion. SAA has to make its profits where it can. JHB to DBN is an important and profitable route with a high demand so pricing has to be determined by a number of factors including profit margins. British Airways may decide to take a knock on this route with a view of making up lost profits on other routes so if you can under-cut pricing on domestic routes (connecting flights) but that allows you to make up the profit on international flights then you do that.

Until we can see the cost breakdown it is difficult to assess why they are cheaper but that they are cheaper does not make SAA a crappy airline. That SAA is a national carrier should not mean they should be the cheapest on that route; that logic is fundamentally flawed.

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DA-DBN-GUY

Sowetan

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? M A T T E R IS AN OFFENSIVE WORD? REALLY???
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Danielrjvvuren

The-Rothschilds

You have not lead me astray before so I shall believe you just do not see it as feasible to pay for pride. Or to that extent,
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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren

Your argument again is flawed. There is no strategic value from keeping around a dead horse. If a horse can not plow my fields anymore because it has no front legs is there any strategic reason to keep it? What else but poor management can be blamed here? How can the other providers be profitable
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The problem i you make a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions like other carriers are more profitable all things being the same, what do you base this assumption on?

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THEmadame2B-BBEE

WTF, SAA has a policy, now we will be charged according to ha many bags you carry with you, how facken nonsense is that, they will still be making money from foreigners, jerrrr, why should we bail them out with our money, some ppl pay so much tax they have never had the privileged of travelling around the world like the madame, even worse never had set foot at OR tambo
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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

Think of SAA as advertising. That is, essentially, what they are. Their presence on the departure boards in various countries and their standing in aviation circles, makes them a kind of ambassador for SA.

Yes, I agree that sound business principles should be forced on them and their extravagant spending should be curtailed, but privatising them or doing away with them wouldn't be good for the image of the country or do our international trade any good
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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

"SAA has to make its profits where it can"
- Clearly and quite obviously they are not so this again points to their STRATEGY being off.

"HB to DBN is an important and profitable route with a high demand so pricing has to be determined by a number of factors including profit margins"
- Being South African Airways should offer in our competitive market a cheaper rate to fly between these points then British owned or privately owned airlines and thus would push up their profit margin instead of forcing customers to use cheaper alternatives leading to the bail out

You misunderstand my angle. I do not say SAA is a bad airline I say it is a badly run airline. Regardless of cost structure if it was up to unchangeable factors like fuel ALL airlines would be affected and not just the one. The bail out itself speaks volumes.

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DA-DBN-GUY

Dzel
DA BBN GUY

On mining;

1. Do you agree that natural resources are a key asset in the mining operation as equally important if not more important that capital from mining houses in the form of cash and / or other assets? AGREED

2. If we agree they are capital in the strict definition of the word don’t you think this warrants a stake be given to the holders of the this capital, THESE MINING HOUSES BRING IN FOREIGN INVESTMENT, PAY HUGE TAXES, EMPLOY THE POPULATION, PROVIDED ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE, TRAINING SO SHOULD THAT JUST BE GIVEN OVER TO INCOMPETENT GOVERNMENTS?

3. Does government not hold natural resources on behalf of its people, ONLY IN AN IDEAL WORLD. ZIM BEHOLDS IT ON BEHALF ON THEMSELVES AND THIS GOVENRMENTS TRACK RECORD SUGGESTS THE SAME WILL HAPPEN

4. If we agree on above points do you not agree that we as a nation are entitled – a strong word but one that is used deliberately – to profits generated or derived from mining operations? THEN BY DEFINITION I SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO FLY FREE ON SAA AS MY MONEY IS HELPING TO BAIL THEM OUT EVERY YEAR. AS WELL AS GETTING A CHEQUE EVERY MONTH FROM ALL OTHER STATE OWNED COMPANIES THAT MY MONEY HELPS BAIL OUT. BUT DONT WE ALREADY BENEFIT FORM THE TAXES PAID BY THESE MINES? OH WAIT THE GOVERNMENT IS LOSING R30BILLION EVERY YEAR.

Lets debate underlying principles first before moving on to how this is best achieved or which model makes the best sense.

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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel
The problem i you make a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions like other carriers are more profitable all things being the same, what do you base this assumption on?

The assumption that the other airlines do not require large moats of cash to be thrust their way annually to stay afloat does say that they tend to be more profitable. It is common deduction it doesn't take a lot of brain power to puzzle it together.
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The-Rothschilds

Danielrjvvuren
The-Rothschilds

You have not lead me astray before so I shall believe you just do not see it as feasible to pay for pride. Or to that extent,
=======================================================================================

It has more to do with the tourism industry than national pride.

For our tourism to flourish, we need a airline. That is a fact. We are becoming a tourism driven country.


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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC

From a marketing perspective I understand the pivital role that SAA plays but if the advertising does not yield any returns it must be reevaluated and or be relaunched in a manner that is profitable or loose it all together. It seems that we are not getting the return on marketing investment that we need clearly by just looking at the losses they sustain marketing is then failing and would further substantiate the need to let it go.
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC

From a marketing perspective I understand the pivitol role that SAA plays but if the @dvertising does not y1eld any re-turns it must be re-evalu@ted and or be rel@unched in a m@nner that is profit@ble or lo0se it all together. It seems that we are not getting the return on m@rketing 1nvestment that we need clearly by just looking at the losses they sust@in m@rketing is then f@iling and would further substanti@te the need to let it go.
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Dzel

DA-DBN-GUY

A bail out is a bail out is a bail out. SAA just happens to take the biggest chunk. I understand the importance of an airline but you cannot justify yearly bail outs. The SAA board was told they would not receive a bail out until such time as they gave Treasury a plan on how they plan to turn around the airline.
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I am not contradicting myself, I get the sense people want to blame cadre deployment for all SAA’s ills when there are other factors that drive profitability like keeping costs in check. Khaya is the opposite in that he did the opposite, he used SAA as his personal piggy bank and is being held accountable for that.

I am saying let us look at the bigger picture, let us understand firstly the role played by SAA and then let us unpack reasons for poor management and we need to be honest when we do that. I have a feeling that we tend to politicise everything even when it is not necessary and doing so takes us away from objective analysis.

I mentioned Coleman Andrews for a reason as his performance was artificial in nature and it had a disastrous impact in the years that follows; see if you understand that you’d understand why it is dangerous to say Coleman was successful and those that came after him useless. I want us to debate at this level where we debate honestly and take into account all material factor including the unstable cost of fuel etc.

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Danielrjvvuren

Guys understand this I am not debating this from any political angle but purely SAA as a business and on that basis and business that can not sustain itself must be cut. Its like carrying around a typewriter there is not use for things in business that does not add to the value and in the end profit.
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maditaba

@Tronn. The education & health system was not in crisis where it was catering for white communities. Mankweng hospital in Limpopo has long been nicknamed ' Re boile fela' by the community since it was built in the community.

As far as the textbook saga is concerned, there would not have been a saga under apartheid because our parents were buying all books for us.
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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

that is the problem with areas such as marketing, their quantitative values are very hard to determine. I agree that the organisation has to be brought up to modern business standards but be able to retain the 'prestige' factor. That isn't in question. I don't, however, think that doing away with it is a good idea. That would be throwing the baby out with the bath water
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Danielrjvvuren

And if it is a South African marketing ploy then I as a South African do not want to be associated with clear failure. Anyone can see the SAA is getting a bailout now do we want to be marketed with such?
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Dzel

DA-DBN-GUY

How about Khaya Nqula for a st art?

Hey if it works dont fix it but if it doesnt and costs us all money then it must be fixed. Again a bail out is a bail out no ma tter what enterprise. The fact is the government should be lo oking at why they need to be bailed out and re ctify the pr oblem.
ESKOM are incre asing ta rrifs annu ally and we still have load shredding, "tra nsformers and sub st ations bl ow ing up" So how do you justify inc reasing tarr ifs when custo mers are not rec eiving the ser vice they are paying for? then there is the theft of elec tricity that gets wri tten off, which we pay for with the in crease in tarr ifs. How do you ju stify that?
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I trust I’ve addressed the issue of Khaya Nqula.

Again you are off on a tangent with Eskom. Firstly power outages are a function of demand on the grid so if the grid is overly burdened it is when outages will occur. Eskom was very clear when they sought higher than usual tariff increases, the money will go towards building more power stations, more power stations mean more power can be generated which in turn reduces the load on existing power and will eventually lead to less outages and allow for growth in the user base.

To ask why we still have outages indicates a misunderstanding of the challenge at hand and measures to correct this. It takes years from the commissioning of a project to build a plant to the time it becomes operational.

By the way I believe load shedding was staged so that we did not have an option but to agree to Eskom’s demand but that is just my personal opinion.

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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC

Being the marketing student I can tell you that using SAA as a marketing stunt is not viable. I understand what you are trying to say but the bad publicity surrounding SAA would be detrimental to the brand South Africa more so than showing us in a good light. Merging or integration into another more profitable airline could be an option but this bailout strategy does not work in the long run. Not for the image of the airline or our international brand.
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LeparaThePresident

@MommaC
LeparaThePresident

I'm sorry but what the hell does the podgy purple pedi have to do with SAA?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The purple pedi will make the status quo remain.
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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren

You misunderstand my angle. I do not say SAA is a bad airline I say it is a badly run airline. Regardless of cost structure if it was up to unchangeable factors like fuel ALL airlines would be affected and not just the one. The bail out itself speaks volumes.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But then you assume SAA is alone in relying on government and other operators run successful and profitable operations which I don’t think is true. Remember post-911 days when everyone was bleeding money; I think I recall a number of airlines receiving bailouts and I stand corrected in saying SAA is not unique in getting bailouts.

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Danielrjvvuren

The main "Marketing structure" for SA is not SAA but is Brand South Africa so loosing a failing airline would not hurt our tourism so much.
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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

I do not assume any such thing, We have many airlines now why could the others stay profitable after 911 ,as you would imply that being the main focal point of bail out activity, but SAA needs one annually? SAA is unique in that it needs it so frequently that obviously points to a mismanagement of funds and a failing strategy.
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Dzel

DA-DBN-GUY

On mining;

1. Do you agree that natural resources are a key asset in the mining operation as equally important if not more important that capital from mining houses in the form of cash and / or other assets? AGREED

2. If we agree they are capital in the strict definition of the word don’t you think this warrants a stake be given to the holders of the this capital, THESE MINING HOUSES BRING IN FOREIGN INVESTMENT, PAY HUGE TAXES, EMPLOY THE POPULATION, PROVIDED ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE, TRAINING SO SHOULD THAT JUST BE GIVEN OVER TO INCOMPETENT GOVERNMENTS?

You are not answering the question. The question is given you agree our government is contributing a portion of the capital which entitles them to a state in the mining company or local operations at the very least.

3. Does government not hold natural resources on behalf of its people, ONLY IN AN IDEAL WORLD. ZIM BEHOLDS IT ON BEHALF ON THEMSELVES AND THIS GOVENRMENTS TRACK RECORD SUGGESTS THE SAME WILL HAPPEN

Why is the ideal world, this is a business question and not a political one. Try again please.

4. If we agree on above points do you not agree that we as a nation are entitled – a strong word but one that is used deliberately – to profits generated or derived from mining operations? THEN BY DEFINITION I SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO FLY FREE ON SAA AS MY MONEY IS HELPING TO BAIL THEM OUT EVERY YEAR. AS WELL AS GETTING A CHEQUE EVERY MONTH FROM ALL OTHER STATE OWNED COMPANIES THAT MY MONEY HELPS BAIL OUT. BUT DONT WE ALREADY BENEFIT FORM THE TAXES PAID BY THESE MINES? OH WAIT THE GOVERNMENT IS LOSING R30BILLION EVERY YEAR.

Perhaps you misunderstand the definition of equity and what rights an equity holder has in a company.

Taxes serve a different purpose, if you can’t differentiate between dividends and taxes this is going to be a long debate. Try again.

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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren


From a marketing perspective I understand the pivital role that SAA plays but if the advertising does not yield any returns it must be reevaluated and or be relaunched in a manner that is profitable or loose it all together. It seems that we are not getting the return on marketing investment that we need clearly by just looking at the losses they sustain marketing is then failing and would further substantiate the need to let it go.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But your definition of returns is simplistic and narrow hence you miss the point.

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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

To portray the country as being to broke to sustain an airline, would do us a lot of harm. You also have to look at how it would affect tourism as it is unlikely that other airlines would take up all of the slack
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General-mahambayedwa2010

Now, Let us nationalize the mines so we can have more money to bail out SAA, SABC, Transnet and Eskom. Viva Julius Malema and his fellow comrades Viva!!! We need to make sure that our children don't get text books at schools so we can always have a high level of illiteracy. By so doing we will be able to Govern until "THE SON OF A MAN" came back.
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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren

Being the marketing student I can tell you that using SAA as a marketing stunt is not viable. I understand what you are trying to say but the bad publicity surrounding SAA would be detrimental to the brand South Africa more so than showing us in a good light. Merging or integration into another more profitable airline could be an option but this bailout strategy does not work in the long run. Not for the image of the airline or our international brand.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And as a marketing student you may be missing the point on what marketing is which should not be confused with advertising. Take Community Social Investment as an example; a company goes into a poor community, they build a crèche worth R 5m for example and don’t get a direct return from that community but because they have put up a board and it is well published that company X sponsored the construction their profile increases within this community – this is what marketing is about – and perhaps so will their visibility and hopefully penetration.

You line of argument says R 5m spent, no income received then that is a poor marketing exercise but is it really?

Let’s assume Company X is a bank, subsequent to this event the municipality accounts is up for tender. Company X bids for the account and on the back of their CSI investment they win the tender and it is through this tender real profits are realised do you still say that initial investment was a waste of time?

Think broader Daniel and maybe you will get it this time; like I said your line of argument is too simplistic and does not take all material factors into account.

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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

My definition of Returns is just what it implies as Returns imply getting something from your investment or has my now 5th year in a business school been teaching me the wrong thing? You are implying the value of a service given and not the return of said investment thus you miss the point of business itself. Why else would anyone go into a market if it is not to make a profit? Do you work for a pat on the back or for money? You miss the point of RETURN...
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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

You misunderstand the difference between marketing and advertising being a subset of marketing and CSR where organizations build schools for a corporate image dude I'm done with you we are going to debate in circles with no one giving ground and you obviously do not grasp business...
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General-mahambayedwa2010

After the nationalization of mines our fellow comrades will be appointed to the CEO positions. They will mismanage funds and get suspended with full pay. And many people working in mines will have to go unpaid if the mini9ng companies become bankrupt just like in the case of Aurora. Our government is doing great with our hospitals and schools. We really need nationalization in this country.

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MommaC

Just checked and SAA is ranked 25th out of 100 airlines of the world. That is up on last year.
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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

You are stretching basic definitions to suit your means and then misunderstand the conceptual ideology of business.. Tell me do you have a BA? You sound like a person who studied feelings and not facts. Not that it is wrong but I will have to change my debate style if you have a degree that is based on opinion.
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!!Sinudeity!!

In the past 3 years, SAA has required R6.6 billion in bailout money.

Almost a 3rd of the debt on the eToll's.
Or 23,000 RDP houses (R200,000 per house).
Or 2% of the national debt (R381 billion)
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LeparaThePresident

@Dzel
Which is the better of the two evils
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I hear your explaination loud and clear, but how do you recoup markets levies/tarriffs and charges costs on bail out? The example you gave of tourism is crystal clear, but does it fits the bail out situation? I know that the bail is not necessarily for the salaries of executives and employees its for expansion purposes. But how do expand when you do not have a feasible turnaround strategy in place? It is what i said earlier, the human capita in most SoE, are so inmcompetend that the fail decimally if not exponentially to attest themselves to the basic simple business practise.

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Danielrjvvuren

LeparaThePresident

Amen dude! Just amen!
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Bizzabo

MommaC
Just checked and SAA is ranked 25th out of 100 airlines of the world. That is up on last year.


on what? service? financial performance or what MC?
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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren

My definition of Returns is just what it implies as Returns imply getting something from your investment or has my now 5th year in a business school been teaching me the wrong thing? You are implying the value of a service given and not the return of said investment thus you miss the point of business itself. Why else would anyone go into a market if it is not to make a profit? Do you work for a pat on the back or for money? You miss the point of RETURN..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In the CSI investment example how would you classify and quantify the return?

In the airlines business let’s take the following example:

Passenger comes in to South Africa; it costs R 10,000 to bring him or her in. Because of poor demand not all seats are taken and apportioning costs per passenger leads to an 80% recovery rate or R8,000 per passenger meaning on that flight on that day SAA lost R 2,000 per passenger.

He then comes into the country and spends R 50,000 in total of which R 12,500 is taxable revenue so then nett effect is the fiscus gains R 10,500 from his visit.

How do you define the return in this example assuming there would not have been an alternative in this market to come in to the country and the said passenger would have gone to competing markets where access would not have been an issue?

Do you understand by taking a knock in one area we gain in others and the nett effect justifies the knock taken earlier?

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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren

You misunderstand the difference between marketing and advertising being a subset of marketing and CSR where organizations build schools for a corporate image dude I'm done with you we are going to debate in circles with no one giving ground and you obviously do not grasp business...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your lecturer needs to give you a lecture on how CSI can be used as an effective marketing tool or strategy, you don’t get it do you?

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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

Read the Mail+Guardian article. We are all being played by the tabloid called Sowetan again.

"The airline was angling for a guarantee of between R4-billion and R6-billion over five years for operational costs, growth strategy and new fleet. While SAA posted a R782-million profit at the end of the 2010/11 financial year and R442-million profit during the 2009/10 period, its operating margin fell to 4.24% in 2011. The airline wants to buy 20 new Airbus between this year and 2017 and is looking to expand across the African continent in order to boost its flailing profits"
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HORATIO7

well thats what happens when the incompetent people is given such a huge responsibility.

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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

You are broadening it passed the scope of the issue beyond the returns that SAA will realize. How much money in your example will SAA see? The issue here is not that they will spend money in SA but the RETURN that SAA will get. SAA is not linked to the hotels and restaurants and shops that that tourist will spend money in that is not their market so the they make a loss. You are taking the implications way beyond the business we are discussing and debating falacies... It is not I who am too narrow it is you going beyond the scope of the discussion
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Danielrjvvuren

Dzel

I get all you are saying but it is so far off base that it is actually laughable....
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Danielrjvvuren

I'm done guys I'm just not getting anywhere and it is not worth my time to debate scenarios so guys have a good day I have to go study cheers
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P4T

Folks would be pullin their hairs out about SAA's business. Ain't no business over der and ain't no strategic asset either. It's just there as a honey pot for ANC cadres to chow taxpayer's moneys. Ya'll wake up! Some of us taxpayers are in the know.
Report Abuse

LeparaThePresident

@General-mahambayedwa2010
Now, Let us nationalize the mines so we can have more money to bail out SAA, SABC, Transnet and Eskom. Viva Julius Malema and his fellow comrades Viva!!! We need to make sure that our children don't get text books at schools so we can always have a high level of illiteracy. By so doing we will be able to Govern until "THE SON OF A MAN" came back.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cdr General, remember last year when Juju and his entourage wlaked from JHB to PTA, some of us had the luck to mingle with the massess of people who sweat it out to advance their gaol. We also asked some of them, to find out what exactely do they know about Nationalization and Economic Freedom. Like their master Sello Juju Malema, no one could event try to project a simple prototype and model of the two , nationalization and economic freedom that will suit or benefit the guy on the corner of the street selling sweets and a guy in the urban / rural area with a matric/ diploma/bachelor degree. Could you Cdr General inlighten me on these?

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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren

You are stretching basic definitions to suit your means and then misunderstand the conceptual ideology of business.. Tell me do you have a BA? You sound like a person who studied feelings and not facts. Not that it is wrong but I will have to change my debate style if you have a degree that is based on opinion.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wo.rd of adv.ice; debate to exchange id.eas and le.arn from the conv.ersation. You are deb.ating from a th.eory and I am tel.ling you how it wor.ks in pra.ctice and how mar.keting is appr.oached from a corp.orate lev.el, the leas.t you can do is go to your lect.urer and po.se que.stions on iss.ues discu.ssed here so you can better unde.rstand what we are disc.ussing.

I can tell you what qua.lifications I have but that would be stoo.ping down and red.ucing this debate to a “my peni(s) is bigger than yours” debate which takes us away from the su.bject m.atter. You can keep on rep.eating what you’ve lea.rned from a te.xtbook and und.erstood wit.hout the necessary co.ntext or you can le.arn on how marke.ting prin.ciples are appl.ied in the r.eal world and how to tie mark.eting spend back to your P&L. The choice is yours.

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Dzel

Danielrjvvuren

I get all you are saying but it is so far off base that it is actually laughable....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Of course it would be because you are driven by ego instead of listening and understanding what is being said.

Playing the man does not amount to a debate and not every debate should be about winning. If you disagree with me tell me what you disagree with so we can trash that point out until we reach an agreement or compromise. Telling me my debate is laughable or that I have a BA is playing the man and you are bringing your ego to the fore.

Let some humility while debating.

Report Abuse

LeparaThePresident

@MommaC
Danielrjvvuren

Read the Mail+Guardian article. We are all being played by the tabloid called Sowetan again.

"The airline was angling for a guarantee of between R4-billion and R6-billion over five years for operational costs, growth strategy and new fleet. While SAA posted a R782-million profit at the end of the 2010/11 financial year and R442-million profit during the 2009/10 period, its operating margin fell to 4.24% in 2011. The airline wants to buy 20 new Airbus between this year and 2017 and is looking to expand across the African continent in order to boost its flailing profits"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I know MommaC that the bail was just a collateral, but why cann't they make their own collateral. At the end we will have a collateral damage. What is the CEO 's key performance area if he cannot bring shareholders money?
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cornelius

Believe me, the mines will require far more bailing out from us ( taxpayers) if they should be nationalised.
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MommaC

LeparaThePresident

It is not a bailout
The government has agreed to sign as guarantor for a LOAN. That will allow SAA to get the loan at the same rates as the government can get them at. The interest rates that the government gets is much lower than SAA could have gotten if it didn't have the guarantee from treasury.

Of course that means that IF they don't pay off then we (the taxpayer) are liable but I doubt that Pravin would have signed off on it if it wasnt likely to work
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Dzel

LeparaThePresident


I hear your explaination loud and clear, but how do you recoup markets levies/tarriffs and charges costs on bail out? The example you gave of tourism is crystal clear, but does it fits the bail out situation? I know that the bail is not necessarily for the salaries of executives and employees its for expansion purposes. But how do expand when you do not have a feasible turnaround strategy in place?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Turn around strategies usually involve either an increase in your profit base or reducing costs. Most costs factors are imported or fixed in nature so you have little control over these. The next level would be relooking at your size which means “right sizing”, we know this translates to retirements and cutting down “on the fat”. Do you not risk under sizing your operations, etc, etc , etc. Efficiencies need to be relooked at but answers you come up with may lead to other problems. Do you sacrifice important routes because you want to right-size?

I am not against your point, in fact it is valid but it may not be as straight forward as you make it sound. I am not in SAA so this is a difficult point to address from where I am sitting.

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General-mahambayedwa2010

@Cde, President, please visit my latest post on this issue, I am sure it will leave you enlightened enough as far as the nationalization of mines policy is concerned. Viva Cde Juju on Prez Mothlanthe's corner Viva!!!!!!!!!!!
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!!Sinudeity!!

Not even a day later, and it seems folks have forgotten about jacob and his R200 million upgrades already. No national outrage, no protests outside parliament...
Report Abuse

Dzel

cornelius
Believe me, the mines will require far more bailing out from us ( taxpayers) if they should be nationalised.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nationalisation is not the right word; equity sharing is more like it. If we can successful separate the question of ownership from one of operational control we would have won the battle. Nationalisation assumes government taking control of the latter, which would e a big mistake and a recipe for disaster.

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!!Sinudeity!!

General-mahambayedwa2010 - I dont know if you are sarcastic or serious.
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!!Sinudeity!!

And in michigan state university, a super-bacteria was developed that can organically create gold.
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Dzel

Thanks for that explanation and refer MommaC, it certainly clarifies an important point which has been misunderstood here.

I agree about the reporting standards here or using terms that do not fully explain what the article is really about.

I hope the everyone understands the nature of the assistance now but the debate remains valid nonetheless.
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SimoneNaWaNthataNa?

Hawo! SAA ena yona ha e etse profit athe na?
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spatch

Struggling Malema's Mines get R500bn state's bailout
03 Oct 2021 | Sapa

Malema's nationalized mines have been given a R500-billion guarantee by the government, the National Treasury said.

Presidebt Cmd Malema was quoted as saying, "Eish! it hard make um money digging dirt."
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LeparaThePresident

Dzel
LeparaThePresident


I hear your explaination loud and clear, but how do you recoup markets levies/tarriffs and charges costs on bail out? The example you gave of tourism is crystal clear, but does it fits the bail out situation? I know that the bail is not necessarily for the salaries of executives and employees its for expansion purposes. But how do expand when you do not have a feasible turnaround strategy in place?
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Turn around strategies usually involve either an increase in your profit base or reducing costs. Most costs factors are imported or fixed in nature so you have little control over these. The next level would be relooking at your size which means “right sizing”, we know this translates to retirements and cutting down “on the fat”. Do you not risk under sizing your operations, etc, etc , etc. Efficiencies need to be relooked at but answers you come up with may lead to other problems. Do you sacrifice important routes because you want to right-size?

I am not against your point, in fact it is valid but it may not be as straight forward as you make it sound. I am not in SAA so this is a difficult point to address from where I am sitting
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Correct, i see your point of view. Though i think cost factors as import cost are the one that are not controllable due to varaying nature of markets and business units as reflective in exchange rates/tarriffs. As for efficiencies, this is mother of bottlenecks(Constraints), see/read a book called The Goal(Theory of Contraints) by Eliyahu M Goldratt.
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LeparaThePresident

@spatch
Struggling Malema's Mines get R500bn state's bailout
03 Oct 2021 | Sapa

Malema's nationalized mines have been given a R500-billion guarantee by the government, the National Treasury said.

Presidebt Cmd Malema was quoted as saying, "Eish! it hard make um money digging dirt."
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nice one TKK( Tshega kudu kudu) = LOL
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Dzel

LeparaThePresident

Correct, i see your point of view. Though i think cost factors as import cost are the one that are not controllable due to varaying nature of markets and business units as reflective in exchange rates/tarriffs. As for efficiencies, this is mother of bottlenecks(Constraints), see/read a book called The Goal(Theory of Contraints) by Eliyahu M Goldratt.
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Will do, thanks.
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!!Sinudeity!!

With the recessions true impact not yet affecting South Africa, and with the amount of air travelers set to dwindle, how wise is it to start buying new jets and equipment at this stage?
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!!Sinudeity!!

Relevant article in the Times magazine this week about the US (and the worlds) struggling airlines. The price of jet fuel has increased from 72c (US) to $3.20 per gallon in the space of 3 years.

It seems that airlines are scrapping the larger, inefficient jets in favour of smaller 50 seaters.
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spatch

The airline wants to buy 20 new Airbus between this year and 2017 and is looking for their anc bribe to be paid into their overseas Swiss bank account.

I thank you.
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MommaC

!!Siinudeity!!

With the increase in business through Africa and fewer airlines traveling in Africa along with a the fear factor related to flying on small carriers, it could be a massively lucrative gamble. Especially in Northern and North Eastern Africa, where we aren't involved in their internal politics, the ability to fly on a respected airline could increase SAA's market share quite dramatically. Its not like road or rail travel is a viable alternative to get to most major cities in Africa.
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nghunghunyane

o tinega mo SA waetsi, so its better they clean us dry with tollgates but there is money for this airline which tax payers dont even afford, the only people benefiting its people in parliament, i think its time we as south africans stop voting with our hearts, cum2014
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BraSipho

Stop appointing ANC cadres as the CEO!
They should have consequences to thier failed management style!
Appoint Cheryl Caroles or Maria Ramos!

Of course it is the fault of apartheid, that is when planes were brought here and they started SAA!
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