candilious

There is more to come . So why can't you respect the peoples believes, you went and bought food for you couldyou not find a spot to enjoy your Garam in peace naai man julle lyk van niks a blerrie issue maak man K@K i wish the KFC closes then what

The companies which own KFC follow Islamic practices:- What is so hard to understand jireeeee
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Papage

It is time KFC that side of the country employ only muslims to stop this nonsense of theirs. It is crazy, maybe we should stop buying KFC until they sort their problems, people please buy only Nandos, it is much safer and healthier than oil fried KFC.
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candilious

@Papage -Is it so hard to respect someone elses Religion? i mean really now
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Voetzek

you come to KFC with Mopani worms and expect them to give you freedom to eat all over the palce? go hang urself
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BRA-MAFUTHA

Nandos should do an advert about KFC and their halaal food
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MommaC

Why doesn't KFC just make it known that they will only employ and serve sighted Muslim people and be done with it?
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MamaNeo

@MommaC or offer free lunch to their employees though eating KFC everyday won't be ayoba!
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golly459

@Voetzek
you come to KFC with Mopani worms and expect them to give you freedom to eat all over the palce? go hang urself
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provide place of hide where we can go and eat during lunch then,and if i enjoyed Mopani worms who are they to judge me. LOL

Halaall!! Halaal my foot?
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Mfen'iyavova

@Candilicious,they must only employ their fellow muslims.Besides, I don't like KFC neither eat it bcoz it so oily,Sies.
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Chichi7

I do not like people that want me to change to suit their needs and neither do I like people that think they are holier than thou.
Having said that, there needs to be mutual respect between the employers and employees irrespective of what religion they belong to than try and change people to suit their needs.
If Halaal employers do not feed their employees and neither do they want them to bring their own, then in future, they must employ only Muslim believers.
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Solm

Not this again please Sowetan.We had enough of this busterdisation of Islam.
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MommaC

Voetzek

LOL
Now there is an interesting conundrum. Fish are always Halal as they are cold blooded and worms are not exactly warm blooded (actually they aren't blooded at all) so would that make Mopani worms halal?
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Gusheshe

@Tumzangwana

Take it easy babes. thats aparteid u cnt force someone to eat what he/she doesnt like and i guess more employees are still to come forward with their cases
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smomondini

what is ds halaal crap?? someone pls help me understand
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mfula

Mxm m seek and tired of these Muslims. I think these companies should just change the name to MFC (Muslim Fried Chicken). Serious this is boring, coz even the milk that we buy has this Muslim thing. Mxm. Chistian stand up and open the bible.
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Popeye

KFC…Koran Fried Chicken.
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mfula

they will have a chance to employ muslim ppl, eat muslim food and close the shop at 13H00 and make funny and boring noises.
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Mellow

Is KFC HALAAL? Pls someone anyone help me understand how is KENTUCKY DEEP FRIED HELPLESS K.ILLED CHICKEN HALAAL?
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golezwa

On Friday, KFC lost a case of unfair dismissal against an employee who took phuthu (maize porridge) and bean curry to work at the Empangeni Village branch of KFC.
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please guys help me understand here, does it mean he was dismissed for his lunch box aka skaftin not being halaal? if thats the case does it mean when you working at KFC you can only eat halaal prepared food?
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Solm

@Mellow

Is KFC HALAAL? Pls someone anyone help me understand how is KENTUCKY DEEP FRIED HELPLESS K.ILLED CHICKEN HALAAL?
=================
This is what is infuriating.KFC can never be halaal, its toxic actually.This is about the mafia Indian scholars who gang up with KFC franchise to sell this to the public and Islam get the backlash.This is about money, it has nothing to do with Islam.
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Kenthotsabatho

They are still using cheap labour. They will never employ their 'own' muslims. It will 'compromise their profits, because they have to pay them a living wage, and not the pittance they pay the current employees.....
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Mellow

@Solm I was hoping you'll respond cause I know we went through this kfc sagga last time really its crazy right given the fact that kfc is the most filthiest crap one can ever label as halaal, so what are you guys planning to do about this matter cause I think they are tarnishing your*muslims* image
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Solm

@Mellow

There is nothing with can do really, these deals between these halaal authorities and KFC are done without our knowledge or consent.Its about money at the end of the day.I dont mind they selling their KFC, just dont label it halaal because once you do that then the meaning of halaal is lost.This is corruption.People mustnt buy KFC period.Lets see whose money they will skin with this fraud.
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Solm

@ Popeye

KFC…Koran Fried Chicken.
================
Lets not get carried away now.The Qur'an has nothing to do with this.
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Mellow

Kenthotsabatho
They are still using cheap labour. They will never employ their 'own' muslims. It will 'compromise their profits, because they have to pay them a living wage, and not the pittance they pay the current employees.....
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True and sad as if their current employees arent working in a $hitty environment as it is and being underpaid now they are trying to fire all of them cause they wont stomach that filthy crap, I rather take a lunch box to work elke dag

@Solm Guess the only solution is to stop buying kfc nothing else am not sure what they are really trying to achieve considering the fact that they are firing the only ppl who are willing to settle for their nonsense
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tumzangwana

Gusheshe

my brother if this KFC doesnt want employees to bring non Halaal foods to work why dont they provide them with Halaal lunches then? batho ba ba tletse matlakala fela, thats all there is to it.
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PiPi-Liyasha!

just because of her LUNCHBOX!!!!! so if i come with my nandos meal and order maybe let say a folder over, will i be chased out?

This is nonsense.....so they must also HALAAL the COKE in the fridge as well then

i wish these reporters can stop trying to translate something they dont understand. uPhuthu is uPhuthu (maize porridge my foot)
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Shredder

Maybe this food outlet should be boycotted and serve "Halaal KFC" to muslims only.
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MommaC

Solm

The Halal Association is regulated by the Islamic Board and the Islamic Board is presided over by the Imams. The money collected for halal certification goes to the Islamic Board so don't say that they have nothing to do with each other. It is the number one money making scheme for the whole bunch of them.
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jabutt

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was inventing religion.
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Shredder

@Solm
Not this again please Sowetan.We had enough of this busterdisation of Islam.
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O tshaba Mzabalazo? :-D
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Mellow

@Shredder LOL you nasty didnt know you such a drama king hahahahahha
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Solm

@MommaC

Solm

The Halal Association is regulated by the Islamic Board and the Islamic Board is presided over by the Imams. The money collected for halal certification goes to the Islamic Board so don't say that they have nothing to do with each other. It is the number one money making scheme for the whole bunch of them.
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The so-called halaal authorities have nothing to do with Muslim communities, they not appointed by them neither are they accountable to them.When I say Muslim community has nothing to do with this scam I mean just that.They handle this whole industry like mafia, its filled with secrecy and underhand deals.I dont mind them making their deals.They just mustnt use Islam as cover for their underhand deals.This I have a big problem with.
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MommaC

Solm

Oh, I see, you are a garage Muslim who has nothing to do with any Mosque but is an expert on what happens in them.
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Solm

@Shredder

O tshaba Mzabalazo? :-D
====================
No chief, its not about Mzabalazo.Its about these mafia Imams dragging the name of Islam in the mud.Mzabalazo has half-baked second hand information on Islam.I cant be scared by someone like that.I have seen and faced much heavier opponents than Mzabalazo.Half knowledge is sometimes more dangerous than no knowledge at all.In this case I agree that ignorance is bliss.
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ThePeople

KFC has a serious problem. Everyday customers enter KFC with their groceries and plastics full of food. Does this mean that if i have rolls, I cant go inside kfc and buy (takeaway) streetwise2. Must i leave my rolls outside? must i leave my grocery outside?
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Solm

@MommaC

Solm

Oh, I see, you are a garage Muslim who has nothing to do with any Mosque but is an expert on what happens in them.
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Wait a munite, you think the money gotten from these deals filters down to the mosques?LOL.Would you mind sharing with us where you got this from?
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WomanOfGOd9

its a gud thng tht i buy fried meet at hungry lion, i wnt buy kfc again, those muslim must go to hell where they belong, nxa
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Shredder

@Mellow
@Shredder LOL you nasty didnt know you such a drama king hahahahahha
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I was sitting at the far corner laughing. Even when I got home I switched on the computer and notice that the debate continued until later than 16:30. Actually, I think it was a good thing that Mzabalazo stepped on Solm's toes a little bit. ;-D Reading from Solm answers, I realised that muslims are using almost the same approach with the Christian proper way of reading the Bible. There are a lot of thieves out there who are twisting bible scriptures, taking them out of context to suit their own pockets.
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MommaC

Solm

So you do go to mosque?
Does your mosque not recognise the Imams?
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Shredder

@Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Shredder

O tshaba Mzabalazo? :-D
====================
No chief, its not about Mzabalazo.Its about these mafia Imams dragging the name of Islam in the mud.Mzabalazo has half-baked second hand information on Islam.I cant be scared by someone like that.I have seen and faced much heavier opponents than Mzabalazo.
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Heavier opponents? Mzabalazo o tla go ngamola tlhogo. I was reading your debate. Hihihiihi. Ja nee.
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Solm

@MommaC

Solm

So you do go to mosque?
Does your mosque not recognise the Imams?
==========================
The question is which Mosque recognise these Imams? Even in Cape Town after that 3rd degree expose on the Orion debacle.Cape Muslims were so upset that they called for the reform of the MJC.Its being reformed as we speak.When I say these halaal authorities are mafias I mean it.But Cape Muslims are unlike Indian ones or blacks who just accept everything done in their name.Maybe when the MJC is straightened out, others will follow but I wouldnt put my money on it.

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Gusheshe

Sometimes i get confused. Halal is not an afrikaans word for take away?
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Solm

@Shredder

Heavier opponents? Mzabalazo o tla go ngamola tlhogo. I was reading your debate. Hihihiihi. Ja nee.
========================
LOL.Never.I have been on this road for a very long time ntate.I have seen and met different opponents.I can handle all sorts of them Alhamdulillah.I just got tired of how Mzabalazo was dissing Islam.I really had to come out and set the record straight.However I consider her like a sister, I hope she learnt something from the debate.Things are much more complicated than simply black and white.Apparently she has build quite a reputation for a herself.lol
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Shredder

Solm
But Cape Muslims are unlike Indian ones or blacks who just accept everything done in their name.Maybe when the MJC is straightened out, others will follow but I wouldnt put my money on it.
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The spiritual weapons are better than the carnal ones. When you start to sort out people you are already being judgmental. Why throw stones when your garage is not clean? I didn't see that 3rd degree expose, what happened?
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Shredder

@Gusheshe
Sometimes i get confused. Halal is not an afrikaans word for take away?
========================================================
LOL. Not really, but sometimes it can work in Afrikaans for take all.
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Moffdat

No Gusheshe hallal is a phrase coined by rappers requesting the crowds response when they perform!
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MommaC

Solm

Wow. Isn't that taking racism and bigotry a bit far?

All modern structured religions are 'mafias'.
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Tsatsatsa

You cannot expect people to eat KFC everyday. If umuntu efuna ukuphatha uphuthu lakhe...let them be it a free country. Why should people respect Muslim if they don't respect their basic right to eat whatever they want. There are more cases coming watch the space.....
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Solm

@ Shredder

Sowetan is blocking my reply now.LOL.I think they tired of me talking now.
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Solm

@MommaC

Solm

Wow. Isn't that taking racism and bigotry a bit far?

All modern structured religions are 'mafias'.
==================
Whats racist about me saying Cape Muslims dont tolerate nonsense?
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Solm

Just google Orion and MJC.You should be able to get something chief.I had a long explanation for you mara Sowetan is blocking me.
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Shredder

@Solm
@ Shredder

Sowetan is blocking my reply now.LOL.I think they tired of me talking now.
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Sowetan's filter stinks. At least if they could use their previous method of flagging the words that they consider offensive. Now you just can't write anything in some instances.
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Shredder

@Solm
Just google Orion and MJC.You should be able to get something chief.I had a long explanation for you mara Sowetan is blocking me.
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Long explanation? That's a problem. There is that one little word that they don't like. I know a word like buy used to be a problem.
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Solm

@Gusheshe

LOL.Halaal simply means it permissible.It depends in what context you using the word.If you talking about food, then it means that food what slaughterd according to the rites stipulated in Islam.For a sheep to be halaal, it would have to be prayed for before slaughtering, the animal must have bled completely, the knife used must be sharp so the animal doesnt suffer unncessary pain during slaughter.These are more or less the guidelines to follow when slaughtering.
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Shredder

@Solm
@Gusheshe

LOL.Halaal simply means it permissible.It depends in what context you using the word.If you talking about food, then it means that food what slaughterd according to the rites stipulated in Islam.For a sheep to be halaal, it would have to be prayed for before slaughtering, the animal must have bled completely, the knife used must be sharp so the animal doesnt suffer unncessary pain during slaughter.These are more or less the guidelines to follow when slaughtering.
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This is exactly what I don't like about halaal food. One can never be sure until he slaughters an animal himself. Ok, maybe it might work to a certain degree if you exclusively buy your food from muslim stores.
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Solm

@Shredder

This is exactly what I don't like about halaal food. One can never be sure until he slaughters an animal himself. Ok, maybe it might work to a certain degree if you exclusively buy your food from muslim stores
==============
People put too much emphises on the food at the expense of other aspects.I have seen people who are strict with the food they eat but are now treating their fellow men with kindness and love.People have become too dogmatic or formalistic in the way they approach religion.They overlook the essence of what religion is suppose to do.How you deal with people on a daily basis is very important.In fact that what you must work towards, being helpful to humanity.You need a soft heart that only produces good deeds.Thats the whole point.As Jesus said, a good tree produces a good fruit.Prophet Mohammed said there is one muscle in the body that if its straight or clean, every action the person does are clean or straight, and that is the heart.You dont get to that point by only eating halaal food.You need to humble yourself and be on the same level as other people.Never be arrogance and proud.These are deseases of the heart that can be cured by halaal food.Thats why Jesus said its not what goes in the mouth that defiles man, but that which comes out of it, because its from him heart.Thats why even with pork, you allowed to eat it if you have no other halaal options.The point is not the food per se, the point is being good to humanity.

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Mellow

Dear Sowetan looks like the only way you think of controlling unruly behaviour on your site is by blocking comments for particular stories how sad is that? Why publish them if you just gonna limit people if you do not like it or find some comments unacceptable just block the user not the whole story for comments and why your moderators are even allowing the comment to go through in the first place just baffles me. I suggest you start using an improved more secured registration method now you busy filtering comments and blocking stories if only you had an efficient working system in place hey. Deregister all users and lets start the registration process again we can always use our twitter or facebook accounts and well your moderator we’ll have to reject or submit the comment. In the meantime some of us we’ll just continue commenting on other serious online papers until you sort yourselves out
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Shredder

@solm - "Thats why even with pork, you allowed to eat it if you have no other halaal options.The point is not the food per se, the point is being good to humanity. "
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I am flabbergasted :-D
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Mzabalazo

Solm
I have learned how to debate, thus I have asked you If you say God is not to be blamed for ushering the command that it is ok for a Moslem men to sleep with his slave woman, then who should I blame , as you know very well the claims of Quran ie. it is a message from Allah through Gabriel to Mohammed, how can I not blame him when he supported such a heinous act, I can understand if you agree that you see nothing wrong with such an act but to say I should not blame the God who sent such a decree, who should I blame, men , it's not men who passed such a law but God. So you cannot say I cannot debate as you never made sense to me on why should god not take responsibility on his own holy words. That my friend is a debate, verses were on that matter were put on the table no rumours, but words from the Koran.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

A debate is a two way thing, you stuck on the points I exhaustively responded to.That is not debate but saber rattling.You cant debate with yourself you know that right?You cant press one issue, when its responded to, because you dont like the answer you keep pressing on it.lol Thats is not a debate my sister.
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Mzabalazo

I am just reading what others are posting I did not intend to participate on this debate and disturb others as if I want to steal the show, I just want to continue to read your debates as that also makes one to grow, just by listening to others and I am enjoying that, I just had to respond to Solm 's claims about me, I wish to continued and read, I am enjoying your argument folks.
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Gusheshe

@Solm and Shredder

Thanks very much for the info guys i was so confused

Report Abuse

Shredder

Go tla nkga go sa bola. Show down in little Tokyo
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Shredder

@Mzabalazo
I am just reading what others are posting I did not intend to participate on this debate and disturb others as if I want to steal the show, I just want to continue to read your debates as that also makes one to grow, just by listening to others and I am enjoying that, I just had to respond to Solm 's claims about me, I wish to continued and read, I am enjoying your argument folks.
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No, no, no. We are going home. You two can go ahead:-D
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Solm

@ Gusheshe

Thanks very much for the info guys i was so confused
======================
I dont blame you.You know when someone wants to knock you, they complicate simple things.I prefer things simple and straightfoward and accessible.Once they develop into a convolusion, then you must know something is not right.


Report Abuse

Mzabalazo

Solm
Your problem is one, you do not want to accept that we are not going to agree on this, which I accept. And I am not going to accept your excuses for such an act, your last answer on this issue was that People could not understand the dynamics of Islam thus they were allowed to keep slavery ( and the Quran even went a step further to say they should sleep with their women slaves) My argument on that was that, this ubsurd because there Arabs were worshiping Gods and when they were told to stop that and worship Allah they did, they could understand that part of the Islam dynamics but not the one on slaves, therefore they were told to do as they please se#xually with woman slaves. Yes I cannot get pass that points with such a lame excuse.

Like I said let me leave you guys enjoy your debate as bad language and curses will spew, I enjoy reading what you are debating about, not to say I agree with many points put upfront but it wise not keep quite at times, I hold my peace.
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Mzabalazo

Shredder
What I meant was that I have been following this debate since it started and just wanted to learn from others and just read, I did not want tonreond to Solm, but I felt his putting one side of the story thus I responded, that's all folks.
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Pee-Pee-Liyasha

just testing testing yet another new account as sowetan seems to block all others.......yerr your service sux sowetan
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

I think you and I have discussed all the issues you raised.Im not going to start all over again repreating myself.You made your case and I have made mine.I just wanted to balance things.Unless there is something new you want to discuss, Im game.
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Nyongoyamavenda

@Solm
Does islam recognize Jesus as a Son of Man?
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Solm

@ Nyongoyamavenda

Islam recognises Jesus as a Messiah, the Messenger of God.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
I never said we should discuss, get this, you were accusing me of not knowing how to debate , then I had to defend myself and prove to you that to you a debate means that as long as a person gives an answer no matter how weak or irrelevant the answer is one must accept it and move to another subject. I could not just let you say anything about me when you know very well why I am not accepting your argument. I will not let you give your version only, my side of the story should be heard too.
Like I said I am not intending to continue unless my word is drag on this topic I will.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Just curious.What do you believe in.I can see you itching for a discussion.Lets talk about Mzabalazo now.Lets hear what Mzabalazo is all about.
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Mzabalazo

Meant to say unless my name is drag into this topic I will.(not my word). This is really now getting to bore me. I am not suppose to respond, allow people to say anything they want about me. Not every answer is acceptable, even in the court of law, excuses are sifted from answers , why should I not, Just because I am an infidel? Infidels in this country have rights.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
You not reading my posts, you not, I do not wish to debate with you because you are want me to accept what is not acceptable. All I was doing was to defend myself from your lies that I do not know how to debate, so I have said my peace. We will discuss another time on another topic, I am not going let you determine what we should or not discuss about. You are content that you gave an answer yet when that answer has holes you rush to say you are not prepared to discuss about, you cannot even identify who is itching here, it's you. I was responding to your half truths about our discussions.
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Nyongoyamavenda

i was askin cos the reason cited for many of christaian killed** in many Muslim dominated countries is that to them Jesus is the son God and not a prophet
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Nyongoyamavenda

and that irks Muslim and develop deadly hatred towards christians
Report Abuse

Solm

@Mzabalazo

My answers to you had no holes.You have opinions on Islam, which are based on very skewed information.You think what you know about Islam is all there is to know.You cant accept anything else.When we reached the point where you stuck on one issue, then I knew its the end.To you Islam is evil, its responsible for all the bad things humanity ever done.When you told me Islam coming up with ways to liberate slaves, you tell me thats cosmetic.Then I knew that no matter what, Islam is doomed in your eyes.So its really pointless to have any discussions.We reached the end.
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

Christians have much bigger theological problems than what you mentioning here.Whoever was telling you about differences between Muslims and Christians was understating the issues.There is a whole lot they left out.Before Muslims came along, they had the same issues with Jews and they killed eachother over it.I dont know how much you know of that history.
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Shredder

Go shota dzel
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Solm

@Shredder

I thought you went home.
Report Abuse

Mzabalazo

Solm
How is liberating slaves when the Quran says that a man who owns a slave can sleep with a woman slave? That is a hole
Hewn you say I should not blame Allah for telling the angel to tell Mohammed to write that it is ok for a man to sleep with a woman slave, you say I should not blame Allah, then I ask you who then told Mohammed to write that information , you do not answer, that is a hole
if slavery is wrong now it was never right then, it was the most evil thing that any human can do to another, even apartheid as bad as it was its nowhere near slavery and that I cannot accept hat Allah is Merciful when he told told the angel to tell Mohammed that the already tormented slaves can be used by their owners to relief themselves, that is not love, that is evil and that later on Allah sees it fit to do away with slavery when so many lives have been lost and traumatized, that to me is not on, and I will never accept your argument. As I said Sowetan has a way of making us debate, we will I am always on his blog, at times I do not post but read and some people think I am now saved or I have run away, so we will discuss, for now we have reached a stale mate, we will again reach another stale mate do not worry.
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Nyongoyamavenda

my coments are just disapearing
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Mellow

Nyongoyamavenda
my coments are just disapearing
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Sowetan for you they are becoming like our current Gov. protecting criminals

@Shredder LOL I take it back I mean me calling you a drama king haai now I see what you meant

@Solm Thanks for free education about Muslim culture very informative I must say
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Nyongoyamavenda

Christains but Muslim seem to be completely intolerant* of christian as they attack** ed and murdere***d in many Muslim countries like Egypyt, Pakistan,Nigeria Saudi Arabia and many muslim countries for no apparent reason or provocation while Muslims are free in all Christian dominated countries. in short Muslims are very intolerant, are very quick to resort to violence as for theological problem im not sure what you refering to
Report Abuse

Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
How is liberating slaves when the Quran says that a man who owns a slave can sleep with a woman slave? That is a hole
==========================
No its not.What happened after that Mzabalazo?You not telling the whole story.This is my problem with your knowledge and the way you think.You are a butcher.

Hewn you say I should not blame Allah for telling the angel to tell Mohammed to write that it is ok for a man to sleep with a woman slave, you say I should not blame Allah, then I ask you who then told Mohammed to write that information , you do not answer, that is a hole

Slavery wasnt started by God, you cant hold Him accountable, neither was it started by Mohammed.This is the underhand you trying to pull.You cant hold Islam responsible for the practice of sleeping with slaves.This is absurd, I made the point to you using the cigarette example.But you dont want to hear anything.I answered this, its not true that I didnt answer.You wish I didnt answer.

if slavery is wrong now it was never right then, it was the most evil thing that any human can do to another, even apartheid as bad as it was its nowhere near slavery and that I cannot accept hat Allah is Merciful when he told told the angel to tell Mohammed that the already tormented slaves can be used by their owners to relief themselves, that is not love, that is evil and that later on Allah sees it fit to do away with slavery when so many lives have been lost and traumatized, that to me is not on, and I will never accept your argument.
=======================
Again, the ptactice of slave owners sleeping with their slave was NOT initiated by Islam.It was there already.Stop trying to twist things.Which lives have been lost?The female slaves were already sleeping with their owners.This practice goes back thousands of years before Islam.You cant pin that on Islam my sister.Sorry.Somehow you trying to create an impression that Islam WORSENED the position of the slaves.This is NOT true, it did the opposite.Islam worked up ways to free these slaves.It might be cosmetics in your eyes, the bottom line here is that slaves you were life-bound to their Masters were not having options to be free.This is the part you conviniently chuck out because it doesnt suite your skewed opinion on Islam.This is the hole in you, not Islam.

As I said Sowetan has a way of making us debate, we will I am always on his blog, at times I do not post but read and some people think I am now saved or I have run away, so we will discuss, for now we have reached a stale mate, we will again reach another stale mate do not worry.
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I dont mind debates in good faith.



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Nyongoyamavenda

@Mellow
You need to dig deeper than that no religion has kille**d so many many peolpe in the name of allah like the muslims,they have words to do it like jihad,mtyrs etc it is very difficult to see God in Islum
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Shredder

Mellow
@Shredder LOL I take it back I mean me calling you a drama king haai now I see what you meant
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Ahaa, I knew you were too slow LOL
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

Christains but Muslim seem to be completely intolerant* of christian as they attack** ed and murdere***d in many Muslim countries like Egypyt, Pakistan,Nigeria Saudi Arabia and many muslim countries for no apparent reason or provocation while Muslims are free in all Christian dominated countries. in short Muslims are very intolerant, are very quick to resort to violence as for theological problem im not sure what you refering to
=========================
Muslims and Christian history didnt start on Sept 11.It goes as far back as almost 1500 years ago.You need to start the story from the begining and follow it all the way here.There is a very long history between these two religions.In all these countries you mentioned, the Christian West has a hand in it.In Egypt, America installed Mubarak and gave him weapons to silence the Muslim population.Egypt is the second country after Israel that recieves American aid.WHy do you think that is?Pakistan has issues with India.India wants to annex Pakistan as it was before 1948, when Pakistan declared independence.America is using this Pakistan-India tension, to blackmail Pakistan into doing whatever America wants.Like when America wanted to attack Afghanistan, Pakistan was given little choice but to provide America with a base.Saudi Arabia has a mornachy that was installed by Britain was WW2, America took over Britain and supported the mornachy there which is very respressive to Muslims.America has military bases all around Saudi Arabia, do you know why?So that none even think of deposing the Saudi mornachy.All of these things and more created a resentment on Muslims about the Christian West.

The theological issues Im talking about started with the Council in Nicea.Have you ever heard of this Council?
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Mellow

Nyongoyamavenda
@Mellow
You need to dig deeper than that no religion has kille**d so many many peolpe in the name of allah like the muslims,they have words to do it like jihad,mtyrs etc it is very difficult to see God in Islum
.........................................................................................................................................
I know I do and am not disputing the fact that they are kind of aggressive and very intolerant of others well actually thats all I knew about them so with all this information presented sure it makes me curious and atleast when I dig I'll know which direction to take and what to search ...thanks to Mzabalazo and Solm
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Solm

@Mellow

@Solm Thanks for free education about Muslim culture very informative I must say
=================
The pleasure is all mine.I know Islam is like a mystry to many people.I want to try and demystify it.
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Solm

@ Nyongoyamavenda

You need to dig deeper than that no religion has kille**d so many many peolpe in the name of allah like the muslims,they have words to do it like jihad,mtyrs etc it is very difficult to see God in Islum
================
Its very difficult to see anything good about Islam the way its presented.Muslims are presented as these crazy nuts who just want to k#ill everybody and blow things up.There is a lot the media is leaving out, deliberately leaving out.However Im here and you here, lets talk.
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Nyongoyamavenda

@Solm
When you believe in God simplicity makes the differenc between you and politicians,to me you are defending theses atrocities like a politician,Mubarak is a Muslim,Saudi mornachs are muslims,pakistan and india issue is a border dispute that has remained unresolved not a religous issue.Amareica has nothing to do with Mulims bombing churches,draging christian out of churches and killi**ng,,them ,Nigeria is flowing with blood as i speak with you, almost all terrorist organisation are muslim aligned ,i think it is a character of your religion to ki**l and silence hence Mzabalazo revelations that it stated with Mohaned himself
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Shredder

Nyongoyamavenda
Christains but Muslim seem to be completely intolerant* of christian as they attack** ed and murdere***d in many Muslim countries like Egypyt, Pakistan,Nigeria Saudi Arabia and many muslim countries for no apparent reason or provocation while Muslims are free in all Christian dominated countries. in short Muslims are very intolerant, are very quick to resort to violence as for theological problem im not sure what you refering to
========================================================================
I have muslim friends. Some are very nice and friendlier than some Christians I know :-D. My main problem with them is this thing of food sharing. They can be generous with food, but when you try to do the same they reject it.

Oh! Coming back to this thing of food, one muslim frined of mine told me that a pie is halaal and Solm today said they do eat a swine when they are out of options. I am still flabbergasted :-D. Anyway, "It is not what goes into the belly that defiles a man". By the way, I don't like eating a swine either :-D
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Nyongoyamavenda

Solm
@ Nyongoyamavenda

You need to dig deeper than that no religion has kille**d so many many peolpe in the name of allah like the muslims,they have words to do it like jihad,mtyrs etc it is very difficult to see God in Islum
================
Its very difficult to see anything good about Islam the way its presented.Muslims are presented as these crazy nuts who just want to k#ill everybody and blow things up.There is a lot the media is leaving out, deliberately leaving out.However Im here and you here, lets talk
====================
i have done a lot of research about muslim countries its not about media ,its christian networks who asks us to pray for them in these countries for they die any time
Tell me about satanic verses
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Shredder

frined = friend
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Mellow

@Shredder Does being nice means one is tolerant? I mean am sure most of them arent heartless beings but there's that intolerance factor with them and yes like most Christians of course
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Nyongoyamavenda

Shredder
Nyongoyamavenda
Christains but Muslim seem to be completely intolerant* of christian as they attack** ed and murdere***d in many Muslim countries like Egypyt, Pakistan,Nigeria Saudi Arabia and many muslim countries for no apparent reason or provocation while Muslims are free in all Christian dominated countries. in short Muslims are very intolerant, are very quick to resort to violence as for theological problem im not sure what you refering to
========================================================================
I have muslim friends. Some are very nice and friendlier than some Christians I know :-D. My main problem with them is this thing of food sharing. They can be generous with food, but when you try to do the same they reject it.

Oh! Coming back to this thing of food, one muslim frined of mine told me that a pie is halaal and Solm today said they do eat a swine when they are out of options. I am still flabbergasted :-D. Anyway, "It is not what goes into the belly that defiles a man". By the way, I
===================
i am not saying personally i cant have a muslim friend but i am raising facts here which cannot be denied as you see their intolerance on halaal food here its worse when you have to be a christian in a muslim dominated country you pay with your blood.,,Just ask yourself how many countries have been bombed or destabilise by thes muslim organisation or terroris groups the list is endless,kenya america ,nigeria,dont forget pagad here at home in cape town. the truth is there is more blood on muslim hand than any other religion
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Shredder

Mellow
@Shredder Does being nice means one is tolerant? I mean am sure most of them arent heartless beings but there's that intolerance factor with them and yes like most Christians of course
==========================================================================
On a personal level yes they are friendly(some who i am close to). I don't know what would happen if we can cross swords and they practice the Koran on me of killing an infidel(me who does not share the same faith with them) :-D
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

When you believe in God simplicity makes the differenc between you and politicians,to me you are defending theses atrocities like a politician,Mubarak is a Muslim,Saudi mornachs are muslims
=================
The problem is that there is a very thin line in Islam between religion per se and politics.Politics fall within the umbrella of Islam.We dont have a secular approach to religion like Christians.A muslim leader has to be just, righteous and look after the interest of Muslims.This leader has to be appointed by Muslims.You cant have a leader imposed from outside.This is the cause of all the problems.However there is a bigger picture here, the West has to keep an eye on Muslims the way they are.They cant have Muslims uniting under a single global government as it happened before.That kind of Muslims challenged the West internationally.This is the big reason why the West has to ensure that Muslims are pinned down.They do that by installing all these marnachies in the middle east.The only two countries in the middle east not under Western influence are Syria and Iran.Already there is trouble in Syria, they trying to remove Assad using rebels.Another country is Iran, which is probably next in line if Syria falls.The point is to level all Muslim countries are turn them to American stooges and make them friendly to Israel.

Amareica has nothing to do with Mulims bombing churches,draging christian out of churches and killi**ng,,them ,Nigeria is flowing with blood as i speak with you
==========================
Nigerians Muslim and Christians have had issues going back longer than Boko Haram.Both sides have killed and burnt churches and mosques.Why is it not terrorism when Christians do the killing and bombing in Nigeria? Or terrorism is the term only reserved for Muslims?

almost all terrorist organisation are muslim aligned ,i think it is a character of your religion to ki**l and silence hence Mzabalazo revelations that it stated with Mohaned himself
======================
First of all tell me what you mean by the term terrorism organisation.This is important to define and understand before we carry on further.
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Shredder

@Nyongoyamavenda - i am not saying personally i cant have a muslim friend but i am raising facts here which cannot be denied as you see their intolerance on halaal food here its worse when you have to be a christian in a muslim dominated country you pay with your blood.,,Just ask yourself how many countries have been bombed or destabilise by thes muslim organisation or terroris groups the list is endless,kenya america ,nigeria,dont forget pagad here at home in cape town. the truth is there is more blood on muslim hand than any other religion
========================================================================
What do you think is the root cause of all these?
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

i have done a lot of research about muslim countries its not about media ,its christian networks who asks us to pray for them in these countries for they die any time
=================
It is about the media.Where did you do your research? Dont tell me in the media

Tell me about satanic verses
====================
Satanic verses is a book written by Salman Rishdie, an Indian author who wrote a novel about this Prophet that was tricked by the devil to include verses from the devil in his book.Obviously the reference was about Islam.

I asked you about the Council of Nicea
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

i am not saying personally i cant have a muslim friend but i am raising facts here which cannot be denied as you see their intolerance on halaal food here its worse when you have to be a christian in a muslim dominated country you pay with your blood.,,Just ask yourself how many countries have been bombed or destabilise by thes muslim organisation or terroris groups the list is endless,kenya america ,nigeria,dont forget pagad here at home in cape town. the truth is there is more blood on muslim hand than any other religion
========================
Im not sure that is correct.How many crimes England committed under the cross?I told you history doesnt begin now, it goes a long way.How many crimes did the Roman Empire commit? How about the Church and the Spanish Inquisition? How about the role of the Church both in world war 1 and 2. Nobody in the entire history of religion has as much blood as Christians.You need to do rearch on the Church first before Islam.
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Nyongoyamavenda

@Solm
i completely fail to understand you when you bring this American thin,are muslims not accountable to Allah, are they not obeying his rules so not be pushed by americans to do what is against God, does it means if americans are are wronging you then you must forget about Allah or braek his rules and murder** innocent people in the name of jihad, remember we had umkhonto wesizwe her which avoid attacking innocent civillians including those who were voting for apartheid regime,how do you justify killi**ng of peolpe like sep 11 ,as being pushed by americans,where is your allah conciuos in that
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Nyongoyamavenda

Shredder
@Nyongoyamavenda - i am not saying personally i cant have a muslim friend but i am raising facts here which cannot be denied as you see their intolerance on halaal food here its worse when you have to be a christian in a muslim dominated country you pay with your blood.,,Just ask yourself how many countries have been bombed or destabilise by thes muslim organisation or terroris groups the list is endless,kenya america ,nigeria,dont forget pagad here at home in cape town. the truth is there is more blood on muslim hand than any other religion
========================================================================
What do you think is the root cause of all these
======================
i cant say but my personal prejudice says muslim is anti christ,that was proffesied in the bible
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Solm

@Shredder

On a personal level yes they are friendly(some who i am close to). I don't know what would happen if we can cross swords and they practice the Koran on me of killing an infidel(me who does not share the same faith with them) :-D
=============================
Nobody will k#ill you for not being Muslim.Muslims are almost 2 billion in the whole world, if it was about us k#lling non-Muslims, the wont be anyone left.You shouldnt be affraid of Muslims
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

i cant say but my personal prejudice says muslim is anti christ,that was proffesied in the bible
===================
How can we be anti-Christ when we waiting for Jesus to come and solve the problems of the world? I have read the Bible many times, where does it say Muslims are anti-Chrrist?On the contrary, do you know who the Bible calls an anti-Christ?The bible spoke and warned about anti-Christ many times.Did you read that part?
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Nyongoyamavenda

Solm
@Nyongoyamavenda

i am not saying personally i cant have a muslim friend but i am raising facts here which cannot be denied as you see their intolerance on halaal food here its worse when you have to be a christian in a muslim dominated country you pay with your blood.,,Just ask yourself how many countries have been bombed or destabilise by thes muslim organisation or terroris groups the list is endless,kenya america ,nigeria,dont forget pagad here at home in cape town. the truth is there is more blood on muslim hand than any other religion
========================
Im not sure that is correct.How many crimes England committed under the cross?I told you history doesnt begin now, it goes a long way.How many crimes did the Roman Empire commit? How about the Church and the Spanish Inquisition? How about the role of the Church both in world war 1 and 2. Nobody in the entire history of religion has as much blood as Christians.You need to do rearch on the Church first before Islam.
===============
what crimes in england. lets leav history cos that was happening to both sides, i am talking about present situation where muslim have becom so notorious for mass murder** and bombings
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Nyongoyamavenda

Solm
@Nyongoyamavenda

i cant say but my personal prejudice says muslim is anti christ,that was proffesied in the bible
===================
How can we be anti-Christ when we waiting for Jesus to come and solve the problems of the world? I have read the Bible many times, where does it say Muslims are anti-Chrrist?On the contrary, do you know who the Bible calls an anti-Christ?The bible spoke and warned about anti-Christ many times.Did you read that part
==============
one of the diciples asked how are we going to see anti christ Jesus replied and said by his deeds,he asked can a fig tree bear an apple fruit,likewise a child of God will bear fruits of peace love and tolerance
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Nyongoyamavenda

Solm
@Shredder

On a personal level yes they are friendly(some who i am close to). I don't know what would happen if we can cross swords and they practice the Koran on me of killing an infidel(me who does not share the same faith with them) :-D
=============================
Nobody will k#ill you for not being Muslim.Muslims are almost 2 billion in the whole world, if it was about us k#lling non-Muslims, the wont be anyone left.You shouldnt be affraid of Muslims
==============
i am talking about things you know very well, facts that are there for all of us ,i am not attacking islam but telling the truth,well dont forget christian out number muslims double portion if not more
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

@Solm
i completely fail to understand you when you bring this American thin
================
Do you know why the American thing is important to us? Its because of the anti-Christ.Do you remember why Jesus was telling his disciples about the end of times and his coming back?Do you remember what he instructed them?

are muslims not accountable to Allah, are they not obeying his rules so not be pushed by americans to do what is against God, does it means if americans are are wronging you then you must forget about Allah or braek his rules
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Yes Muslims are accountable to Allah, this is what makes us to be on the collision cause with America.We not breaking Allah's rules when we oppose America.

murder** innocent people in the name of jihad
=================
Its against Islam to murder innocent people.Islam is very specific about that.

remember we had umkhonto wesizwe her which avoid attacking innocent civillians including those who were voting for apartheid regime,how do you justify killi**ng of peolpe like sep 11 ,
=======================
First of all, nobody knows who committed 9/11.America told us its Bin Laden, who was trained by America to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.There is no justification for k#illing civilians.I have my doubt about 9/11, together with many Americans.The story we were told is not all there is to it.There are many Americans questioning the official version of 9/11.Only God and those responsible for that crimes knows what really happen.

as being pushed by americans,where is your allah conciuos in that
==================
What would you have us do chief? Must we just roll over and play dead?

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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

one of the diciples asked how are we going to see anti christ Jesus replied and said by his deeds,he asked can a fig tree bear an apple fruit,likewise a child of God will bear fruits of peace love and tolerance
=====================
Very good.Im glad you know your scripture.Before that,what did Jesus say is the sign in the holy land that when the disciples see they must run to the mountains and not come back untill he comes again? Do you remember that sign?
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Mellow

@Solm what do you think of Eric Allen Bell? Im reading an interesting piece but we'll talk bout it sometime comments on that blog are just hectic

Guys seriously now dont tell me you not married its late tjooo come now logoff and give your lovely wives attention haaibo

Nyt yáll
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

what crimes in england. lets leav history cos that was happening to both sides, i am talking about present situation where muslim have becom so notorious for mass murder** and bombings
===================
How are you going to understand what happening now without history?You cant leave history out.Its the series of events that lead to present situation.We didnt just end up here chief.Events happened before that brought about the present situation.History explains everything.Is it just Muslims doing the mass murder and bombings?
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Nyongoyamavenda

i respect your choice of religion and you will account to only God Jehova on that day,but your reply add more questions than answers,you seem to be dancing to americans than applying your religous laws ,americas are having you on their palms of their hands and in all of that to us you appear worse than them
i have listed so many attrocities in different countries commited by muslim aligned organisation is it really a coincidence,so many times ,your seem to belive that it is the americans who are making you to do that including attacking synagogues and churches, surely quran must be useless it teaches that you must always watch and react against americans,it is manual for responding to americans,Allah must be an evil angel for americans
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Solm

@Mellow

@Solm what do you think of Eric Allen Bell? Im reading an interesting piece but we'll talk bout it sometime comments on that blog are just hectic
=================
I know that guy, the Jihad watch dude.I know about him, lets talk some other time about him

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Nyongoyamavenda

Mellow
@Solm what do you think of Eric Allen Bell? Im reading an interesting piece but we'll talk bout it sometime comments on that blog are just hectic

Guys seriously now dont tell me you not married its late tjooo come now logoff and give your lovely wives attention haaibo

Nyt yáll
=========
sure love seeing that you are stil here ,are you single
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Mzabalazo

Solm
Now you are really changing your spots, do you want to tell me that the scriptures in the Quran that I have qouted in the previous post are not the teachings of Islam, how a slave should be treated, how a a wife should not be against a Moslem husband when they choose to sleep with a woman slave? You call that good faith when you duck and dive, wait I will be at home in 3 hrs, I will post back that argument, I have saved it, right now I am in a meeting I cannot entertain a debate. Check this side , Iam going to copy and paste our conversation.( we had on the hallal issue and compare what you are saying now to all the answers you gave me. ) thanks
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

i respect your choice of religion and you will account to only God Jehova on that day,but your reply add more questions than answers,you seem to be dancing to americans than applying your religous laws ,americas are having you on their palms of their hands and in all of that to us you appear worse than them
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Why do you think applying our religious laws is contrary to our battle with America?I dont think you understand whats happening here.What is happening is very serious.Im waiting for you to tell me what Jesus said so I can link everything up together for you.

i have listed so many attrocities in different countries commited by muslim aligned organisation is it really a coincidence,so many times ,your seem to belive that it is the americans who are making you to do that including attacking synagogues and churches,
=======================
Yes you have listed atrocities that you claim are committed by Muslims, while you selectively want to forget others.Where did Muslims attack synagogues?

surely quran must be useless it teaches that you must always watch and react against americans,it is manual for responding to americans,Allah must be an evil angel for americans
========================
If it was uselss we would all roll over and play dead.We would all let the West some rape Muslim countries oil and we do nothing.We cant do that.Our God is a God of justice.For there to be peace in the world, we need to all work for justice.Its not justice when you have a bully trying to push around everybody and steal their own.Thats corruption.Its not justice that these people came to this country and oppressed us for hundreds of years, exploited us, raped the minerals of this country, took over the most fertile land.They messed us up.Im talking about you and I now.Is that right?Was that fine? Is it ok that we still have people living in shacks without drinking water and basic necessities?Are we not proof enough for you that we suffered the corruption of these people?
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

I will be waiting.
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Nyongoyamavenda

@Solm
ok my brother lets leav it here cos you are each you answer you raise more question and deviate from the real issue i thought we are talking about islam ans christianity but its all americans and now shacks tjo!!! i pray that you recieve Jesus so you can have peace, freedom and give a damn to americans for He will set you free phycologically,spiritually and everyway
just one point of correction americans have never colonised any country,
lets talk tomorrow
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Solm

@ Nyongoyamavenda

Please go open your Bible and read about the sign and come back here so that we can analyse it.That sign is very very important.I need to sleep now.Cheers
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Solm

@Nyongoyamavenda

ok my brother lets leav it here cos you are each you answer you raise more question and deviate from the real issue i thought we are talking about islam ans christianity but its all americans and now shacks tjo!!!
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You know what?Lets leave talking about far away places because you wont understand whats happening there.Lets talk about here in South Africa.In your clean and peaceful Christian world, how do you suppose blacks in this country ended up where they are toda?How did our people end up n shacks brother?Was is not the people of the cross, Christians, who came all the way from England and Netherlands to this country and found our people here?As they were passing by the Cape they liked the place and started settling here.What did they bring us?They brought us the Bible and we had land.After the colinisation of our country, we had the Bible and they had the land.Is it not what happened?They they not then oppress us for over 300 years?Did they not exploit us for over 300 years?In this 300 years, this they not rape the minerals of this country?What do you call all this? Preaching the gospel and spreading the holy spirit?This is the rotten history in our country that you cant look at.You rather confine yourself into this abstract and imaginary peaceful world that only exist in your heads.You cant face reality, you cant handle the truth.And you have the nerve to tell us that the Qur'an is useless because it tells us to resist this corruption of the earth by the anti-Christ.What does your useful Bible say?Did it help us against this trauma and robbery that we suffered for over 300 years?The answer is NO!Instead it was used as an instrument to rob and oppress us.The anti-Christ taught us the Bible stories, how we must forget the politics because its diry and from the devil and how we must just love and focuss on Jesus who will be our gateway for us to enter Paradise.In other words we must forget the raping and oppression taking place, we must worry and think of Paradise.Is itnt wonderful.When all this is happening, we must recluse ourselves into the wonderful land of milk and honey.Well you have been duped.While our country was physically raped, the Bible was raping our people psychologically.Thats why its useful is it not?Its telling us to do things that people who brought it here are not doing.Shouldnt that tell you something?Who was the Bible useful for?Not us that I can tell you.It wasnt us brother.This is a fact you need to wake up to.After all these years, you still singing the same tune that was used to colonise us?Who is not in their minds here me or you?You cant solve your problems when you living in this imaginary recluse.You need to snap out of it.This is how we ended up in shacks.This is the link between the shacks and what caused this whole mess in this country.This is the link you cant see because you busy in your recluse.Because you busy erasing history and want to deal with here and now things.You have a problem not me.Your Bible didnt help us.

i pray that you recieve Jesus so you can have peace, freedom and give a damn to americans for He will set you free phycologically,spiritually and everyway
==================================
Didnt you do the same thing in the last 300 years of this country?What happened?Where was Jesus when this country was raped?When was he when we were oppressed?Where was he?Wasnt all this done in his name?Whose side was he with?The oppressor or oppressed?Well if he was involved in this whole process then he wasnt with us because we victims here.He certainly didnt take our side.I dont live in your recluse world.What you telling me didnt help you, why would it help me?The standard defining of insanity is repeating the same action over and over again and expecting different results.Did Jesus set us free pschologically,spiritually and everyway when all this happened?Answer me that question first.

just one point of correction americans have never colonised any country
=================================
Hahaha thats the joke of the century.The very place called America, do you think it grew from the ground like a tree or there were Red Indians staing there and they founders of America exterminated them.You not living in the real world chief.Snap our of your imaginary world and come level with me in the real one.


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Mzabalazo

Solm I will start with the permission by Quran for husbands to beat their wives and check your answers:
AUG 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
The verses are posted above I will cut and paste

AUG 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Narrative or not theirs religion has created more harm on this planet, we have Jihadist using the same claimed narratives verse. Read these verses and explain the context to us, if you think they cannot be explained:

Quran
XXIV/6-7 As for those who accuse their wives (wife) but have no witness except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...

II/223 Your women are a tilth for you to cultivate. so go to your tilth as ye will..

I'V/15 If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ... Confine them until death claims them.
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This is self explanatory you can make any intellectual excuses teaches that women should be treated inferior than men, why should one man's witness be so powerful and yet when you read the text where the case is a male against a male more witnesses are needed. Make excuses right.

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Mzabalazo

Solm
Your answer was that these verses are self explainatory ,which agree, but after. Saying I was reading them out of context, but the point is that if God says a woman who happens to be an adult should be beaten that is abuse, that is mistreatment of a woman
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Mzabalazo

AUG 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo

I gave you the situation those verses are dealing with.What more you want from me? Where did I say woman should be property of males? You not only putting words on Islam, you putting words on me now.What is the matter with you? Are you even listening to what Im saying or you having this conversation with yourself?have you heard anything I have told you? Show me the abuse that Islam is doing on woman.Im waiting for that one.
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Solm if you allowed to beat your wife, and confine them until death, then they are no longer your equals, they are your property, that is if you have the absolute power over a person and you can do as you please, something you cannot do to another, they are reduced to a property, yes the Koran does not say they are your property per se, but at the end tha is that.
///:::::////:::://
When you allow others to beat other adults, you take away the most part of their rights and dignity, I guess that too is not a teaching of Islam yet it is from the book of Islam.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
Check what you you asked me in defense of your religion and then compare it with the next answer which is different from this one and contradictory to this:

AUG 13, 2012
Solm
Mzabalazo

Nowhere did I say Mohammad lifted a hand for her wives, I have quoted from the Koran what it says on how treat a woman and these are just a few verses about how women are treated, sleeping with slaves by force and the Koran saying a man kcal sleep with a slave child as long as they never brast feeded by the man's wife. How often can a master's wife can breast feed a slave child?
========================================================

I asked you to show me where the Qur'an abuses woman.Instead you telling us about some hadith from Tirmidi.Common now. Where does the Qur'an say Muslims must sleep with slaves by force? Slave child? Where did you get that? You are soo confused.I will give you my email address and I will take you step by step explaining things to you.You mixing too many issue and confusing yourself.

I never said Muhammad beat his wives , but the Koran says you can beat your wife, and you said I can cry and scream but women and men will never be the same, that too surprised me as I never claimed that we will ever be the same,.
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I made the point about kicking and screaming when I was explaining the witness issue, not about beating woman.You see why I say you confusing yourself?
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Mzabalazo

Solm

Now check your next answer to the same issue, now all of a sudden the scripture exists and scholars have an argument about what this permission of beating wives is referring which fault a woman has committed. Which to me is still senseless to beat an adult:


AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo

You are not discussing out of good faith, what is the use of me posting Koran scriptures and then after that you do not attend to them instead you telli us that I am hand- picking verses , if not saying I am taking them out of context, I asked you to put the verses I have quoted in context you did not, instead I am the only one here doing the bending, you ask me to bring a qoute and I do but you do not even try to do a little bending, is because you are a male or what?
==============================

The difficulty here Mzabalazo is that you want me to discuss something with you when you dont have all the information you need to interpret a verse.This is the point I have been making.You need to learn the tools of interpretation first.

Now promise me that when I post the verse you will put in context and explain how wrong I was for qouting
=============================

Ok but I wont be able to do that now.You want me to do a commentary on the verse, you looking at 3-5 pages.That I cant do here.Thats why I offered that I give you my email so I can hve time to address your concerns in full.You dont deal with Qur'an like that.

Let's start with this qouation from Koran I V/15 if any woman is guilty of lewdness... Confine them until death claims them
======================================

There is a difference of opinion on what this verse is dealing with.Other scholars argue that its talking about adultry or fornication.Other scholars argue that it doesnt deal with those cases because already the punishment for adultry is prescribed.These scholars argue that the verse is talking about crimes committed between woman.I would think its female to female interrcourse as the wording is structured to address two female subjects.What the verse is saying is that if there is a claim of such a nature against a woman, a trial has to be conducted and witness presented.If she is found guilty, they have to be confined to a particular place untill death claim them or God decide some punishment for them.Few things to consider here.Crimes done in public are punishable under Shariah, there are prescribed punishment for them.The reason for this is that Shariah discourages public commission of sins or crimes. Such a crime or sin harms the community as a whole.This is why its punished, it has a deterant purpose punishing for crimes in public.Those committed in private, as it appears to be the case with this verse you quote, Shariah doesnt concern itself about UNLESS they spill over into the public domain.If they are private, then its for God to punish on Judgment Day.If they spill over to the public than they punisheable.I will research for you the circumstance leading to the revelation of this verse.By the way, the first that this verse particularly addresses woman, it doesnt mean the man guilty of the same crimes cant be punished in a similar manner.I will find out the details for you.

XXIV/6-7 as for those who accuse their wives but have n witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies
=========================================
This is about legalities, about evidence.Whats your problem with this?
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Mzabalazo

Solm
You started by saying , "where does the Quran says beat your wife until death?" Now without realizing you somersault , to "it could be that they should be confine for committing same se#x act," to me it does not matter what is the reason, that is inhumane and guess what the very same Quran has a bias ruling on males who commit that, they can be brought back if they repent because Allah is merciful. Look I do not want to post that scripture as it will not near any thing to you. Anyway I am not. Starting a new discussion I am posting so as you can see who is not discussing in good faith here, and why I cannot accept excuses as answers. Mind you I have not yet posted on the issue of slavery yet.
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Mzabalazo

Solm

Let's look at the slavery , now check what you said:

AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
I hold Islam for it responsible for and I have stated it clearly and I did not leave any stone unturned, I held all the Monotheist religion accountable for their bits I even includes Hinduism, Iam the one who qouted the Crusade wars that was started by the church, I am the one who qouted Sarajevo Kosovo which was fuelled by Christians don't try and pull hare on the hat for me.
=========================
How can you hold Islam responsible when it BOUGHT slaves to free them?What sense does that make?Im going to stop soon, this is not getting anywhere really.I was hoping for some intelligent debate from you but the standard of this discussion of getting lower and lower.Im going to stop soon.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
If Moslems were purchasing slaves in order to free them then why is thi scripture telling us about slaves the Moslem had?

Check this out : Sura 24 :30 Speak unto the believing women that they refrain their eyes and observe continence; and that they display not their ornaments , except those which are external, and that they throw their veils over their blossoms and display not their ornaments except to their fathers or their husbands or their sons...or their slaves, or male domestic who have no natural force...

Who is discussing out of good faith here



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Mzabalazo

AUG 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo

Solm
Why did Mohammed say it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with a woman slave.? Let's deal that, why should it be ok to do that?
=========================
These were new Muslims Mzabalazo, they got into Islam much later when Islam was already 15 years.I dont think you understand the difficulty of administering this.These people had no knowledge of the fundamentals of Islam, they still had to be taught.This situation applies to those people, not everybody.Not every Muslims had slaves, not every new Muslim had slaves.The application of these temporal verses applied to specific people.People came into Islam with gabbage, there had to be a filtering process while they are taught the fundamentals.Its easy for you sitting in the 21st century to make abstract judgments on this issue.When you there dealing with all the dynamics at the same time, its a completely different situation.Its not right to sleep with anyone you not married to.But the reality is that you dealing with people who did far worse things than you make noise about.Such people had to be fixed, and fixing them needed a method.
///////::::::::://////////:::::::::://////////:::::::::////////
Now you want me to swallow this excuse about your explaination of such a heinous act.
This issue was not as difficult and complicated as worshipping many Gods amongst tha Arabs, yet there was no compromise, it was said it is wrong take it or leave it, there was no advice given that because there were lot of dynamics we are dealing with, people can pray to their djinns one a month and as long as the keep RAMADAN and whatever it's ok, we will phase it out later. No but the slave issue people can sleep with them as long as they own them, and that is the advice, from whom, Allah or Mohammed? I have never heard of the Quran having Allah's words and Mohammed at the same time.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm I will start with the permission by Quran for husbands to beat their wives and check your answers:
AUG 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
The verses are posted above I will cut and paste
===================================
You forgot forgot the verses my sister.There are no verses posted above.


This is self explanatory you can make any intellectual excuses teaches that women should be treated inferior than men, why should one man's witness be so powerful and yet when you read the text where the case is a male against a male more witnesses are needed. Make excuses right.
=========================
This is going to be a long day.You throwing in many things here.The verses you hand picked are talking about different situations.Verse 24:6-7 talks about single witness evidence.I dont know why you brought this here.It about the law of evidence.Verse 2:224 uses a figure of speech when refering to women.Woman are likened to the soil that a farmer calvitates to bring vegitation, which is the offspring in this case.Whats the problem with this?Verse 4:15 talks about the punishment for an act of homosexual behaviour.I dont know why you lumping all these verse in one go.I have no idea.I dont even know if you read the verses before you cut and paste.This we discussed at length, I dont know why I should start the same discussion all over again.I cant do that.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
Your answer was that these verses are self explainatory ,which agree, but after. Saying I was reading them out of context, but the point is that if God says a woman who happens to be an adult should be beaten that is abuse, that is mistreatment of a woman
=======================
I said the verse about a single witness was self explanatory.I didnt say the verse about beatening woman is self explanatory.I dont believe you actually read my replies.I dont see any evidence of that.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
This is but a few of things that shows that you do not debate out of good faith, first you completely deny that Moslems owned slaves, you claim that they purchased the slave to f#ree them, and the verses do not say that. Secondly you concur in a very tricky way, you say Mohammed or who else I don't not because you do not come clearly, we're advising people who came for advice about having s#ex with their slaves, which is very contradictory as they were purchasing slaves to f#ree them.
1) there is slave issue in Islam
2) they b#uy to free
3) they were told they can sleep with their woman slaves because they were seeking advice and there were lot of dynamics involved
4) Islam does not support slavery
5) Quran is a holy book fro Allah through Gabriel to Mohammed
6) the slave issue at hand is an advice from someone, I suspect Mohammed not God, but is it from the Quran which is message from Allah
All this discussion is revolving on basically these six issue and I should be satisfied with your answers, how can one be?


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Solm

@Mzabalazo

When you allow others to beat other adults, you take away the most part of their rights and dignity, I guess that too is not a teaching of Islam yet it is from the book of Islam.
========================
Where is the verse about the beating of woman?None of the verses you brought here talks about beating of woman.Stop cutting and pasting and talk to me please.I want you to apply your mind and talk to me.Otherwise there is no point in this discussion, you going to raise an issue and I respond to it but you not going to apply your mind to my reply you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.Then Im talking to myself.I cant talk to myself sister.You cant parrot things like a broken record.You working yourself up into a fenzy with your repeated subjects and verses.You need to calm down, break your issues down.Lets deal with them one at the time.Dont throw me to legal verses, to punishment verse, to slavery verses, to Sunni-Shia issues.This is a product of a very confused mind.You have a Qur'an, go back and read it properly.List all the issues you uncomfortable with HAVING READ ALL the verses in the Qur'an dealing with that issue.Then come and lets talk.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
You started by saying , "where does the Quran says beat your wife until death?" Now without realizing you somersault , to "it could be that they should be confine for committing same se#x act," to me it does not matter what is the reason, that is inhumane and guess what the very same Quran has a bias ruling on males who commit that, they can be brought back if they repent because Allah is merciful. Look I do not want to post that scripture as it will not near any thing to you. Anyway I am not. Starting a new discussion I am posting so as you can see who is not discussing in good faith here, and why I cannot accept excuses as answers. Mind you I have not yet posted on the issue of slavery yet.
==========================
LOL.This is why Im saying Im talking to myself here.I asked you to show me the verse which says woman must be beaten to death as you sensationalised the issue.You didnt give me any verses which says woman must be beaten to death.You taking chances.Yet you telling me Im not debating in good faith.This is the irony here.I never summersaulted because I know what Im talking about.Where does the Qur'an say makle committing the same crime shouldnt be punished if they repent?This again is another fabrication.Im begining to build a profile on you.I know who uses all the tricks you using, they are not original to you.You just reharshing them.Thats why you cant think beyond them.Even though you dont want to come clean about what you believe in, you duck and dive.I come clean with my belief.Im not ashamed of it.


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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm

Let's look at the slavery , now check what you said:
================
I dont need to check what I said, I know what I said.

Solm
If Moslems were purchasing slaves in order to free them then why is thi scripture telling us about slaves the Moslem had?
===================
The first encounter of Islam with slavery was in Makkah.Bilaal, an Abyssinian slave was bought by one of the companions of the Prophet, Abu Bakr.The Prophet told him to free him by buying him from his owner.This was long before the verses on slavery were revealed.In Makkah Muslims didnt own slaves, none of the companions of the Prophets in Makkah owned slaves.The case of Muslims owning slaves was in Medina, years after that.When the new converts came into Islam who owned slaves.This was the FIRST time there was a case of Muslims owning slaves.Islam dealt with slavery from there.These new converts had slaves before becoming Muslims already.When they became Muslim, they 'officially' brought the issue of slavery.If you did your proper reading on Islam, without cutting and pasting.You would have known this.But you have a sinister agenda, the agenda of hand picking verses to suit your opinions of Islam.From the information you throwing around, I can tell that you didnt do any reading of you own on Islam.Otherwise you wouldnt be making such horrible blunders.

Check this out : Sura 24 :30 Speak unto the believing women that they refrain their eyes and observe continence; and that they display not their ornaments , except those which are external, and that they throw their veils over their blossoms and display not their ornaments except to their fathers or their husbands or their sons...or their slaves, or male domestic who have no natural force...
================================
This verse deals with veiling.Muslim woman are not allowed to display their private areas in the public.There are specifications for both man and woman, in terms of what they allowed to show in public.I dont know wy this is here.
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Mzabalazo

Solm

You are really funny, you responded to that verse remember, I have already posted your response, you said the scholar argue on what it referred to, so how did you know that the verse was debated by scholars
Let me jog your memory:

Koran
I'V/ 15 if any one of your women is guilty of lewdness...confine them until death claims them
Funny how men who do the same are treated. I'V/ 16If two men among you commit indecency(sodomy) punish them. If they repend and med their wats, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful. But women should be confined to death

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Mzabalazo

Solm
Here it is:
AUG 14, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Now I am tired with your lies check this and stop lying,:

Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so? If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives. Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also? I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many. Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter.

Praise be to Allaah.  
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married. 

A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage. 

This is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and this was done by the Prophets. Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) took Haajar as a concubine and she bore him Ismaa’eel (may peace be upon them all). 

Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars. 

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”

[al-Nisa’ 4:3] 

What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave women whom you own. 
And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Ahzaab 33:50] 

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.

But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-31] 

Al-Tabari said:  

Allaah says, “And those who guard their chastity” i.e., protect their private parts from doing everything that Allaah has forbidden, but they are not to blame if they do not guard their chastity from their wives or from the female slaves whom their rights hands possess. 

Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84 

Ibn Katheer said: 

Taking a concubine as well as a wife is permissible according to the law of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him). Ibraaheem did that with Haajar, when he took her as a concubine when he was married to Saarah. 

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/383 

And Ibn Katheer also said: 

The phrase “and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you” [al-Ahzaab 33:50] means, it is permissible for you take concubines from among those whom you seized as war booty. He took possession of Safiyyah and Juwayriyah and he freed them and married them; he took possession of Rayhaanah bint Sham’oon al-Nadariyyah and Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibraaheem (peace be upon them both), and they were among his concubines, may Allaah be pleased with them both. 

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/500 

The scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible. 

Ibn Qudaamah said: 

There is no dispute (among the scholars) that it is permissible to take concubines and to have intercourse with one's slave woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):  

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”

[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30] 

Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah was the umm walad (a slave woman who bore her master a child) of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and she was the mother of Ibraaheem, the son of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), of whom he said, “Her son set her free.” Haajar, the mother of Isma’eel (peace be upon him), was the concubine of Ibraaheem the close friend (khaleel) of the Most Merciful (peace be upon him). ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) had a number of slave women who bore him children, to each of whom he left four hundred in his will. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) had slave women who bore him children, as did many of the Sahaabah. ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn, al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad and Saalim ibn ‘Abd-Allaah were all born from slave mothers 

Al-Mughni, 10/441 

Al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: 

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”

[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30] 

The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (women slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses. 

Al-Umm, 5/43. 

The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them. 

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

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Mzabalazo

Solm
Yet you claim that Mohammed never had slaves so how he have a sariyyah, this was from a well versed Moslem, he did not deny that Moslems owned slaves and they slept with them if they so wish.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Now you want me to swallow this excuse about your explaination of such a heinous act.
This issue was not as difficult and complicated as worshipping many Gods amongst tha Arabs, yet there was no compromise, it was said it is wrong take it or leave it, there was no advice given that because there were lot of dynamics we are dealing with, people can pray to their djinns one a month and as long as the keep RAMADAN and whatever it's ok, we will phase it out later. No but the slave issue people can sleep with them as long as they own them, and that is the advice, from whom, Allah or Mohammed? I have never heard of the Quran having Allah's words and Mohammed at the same time.
========================
My dear sister.There are two acts in Islam.The first one deal with aqeedah or belief system, a relationship between God and man.This deals with worship.Islam doesnt compromise on this.Secondly, there are acts between man and man.This deals with legalities and social conduct.This is where Islam allows flexibility.This is not because God changes His mind, no.This is simply because you now dealing with habits and relationships people have established between eachother for years.When you dealing with this part, you need to be systematic and realistic in how you deal with it.Slaverly falls into this catergory.Habits people have been doing for years, its not realistic to suddenly tell them to drop it.If you take that route, they just wont change.I told you about human psychology, it just doesnt work that way.If you aiming for a particular end, you need to have a filtering process that 'cleans' people's behaviour to achieve what you aiming for.This is not an excuse as you simplistically put it.Its a realistic, practical methodology.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
I do not dispute that you answered me, but your answers have many many holes and at time you flip- flop and do back somersault in one issu, if you can honestly take time and review your different answers to one issue you may see that.
Some of your answers are just excuses really.
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Mzabalazo

Solm

This a good example of what I am talking about, I will re- copy and paste this one from you :

AUG 17, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo

Solm
You started by saying , "where does the Quran says beat your wife until death?" Now without realizing you somersault , to "it could be that they should be confine for committing same se#x act," to me it does not matter what is the reason, that is inhumane and guess what the very same Quran has a bias ruling on males who commit that, they can be brought back if they repent because Allah is merciful. Look I do not want to post that scripture as it will not near any thing to you. Anyway I am not. Starting a new discussion I am posting so as you can see who is not discussing in good faith here, and why I cannot accept excuses as answers. Mind you I have not yet posted on the issue of slavery yet.
==========================
LOL.This is why Im saying Im talking to myself here.I asked you to show me the verse which says woman must be beaten to death as you sensationalised the issue.You didnt give me any verses which says woman must be beaten to death.You taking chances.Yet you telling me Im not debating in good faith.This is the irony here.I never summersaulted because I know what Im talking about.Where does the Qur'an say makle committing the same crime shouldnt be punished if they repent?This again is another fabrication.Im begining to build a profile on you.I know who uses all the tricks you using, they are not original to you.You just reharshing them.Thats why you cant think beyond them.Even though you dont want to come clean about what you believe in, you duck and dive.I come clean with my belief.Im not ashamed of it.


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Mzabalazo

Solm
The verse was posted:
AUG 17, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm

You are really funny, you responded to that verse remember, I have already posted your response, you said the scholar argue on what it referred to, so how did you know that the verse was debated by scholars
Let me jog your memory:

Koran
I'V/ 15 if any one of your women is guilty of lewdness...confine them until death claims them
Funny how men who do the same are treated. I'V/

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Mzabalazo

Solm:

Hope you are going to be honest in dealing with this:


Welcome to Submission (Islam)

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Does Submission (Islam) allow wife beating?

Some ‘Muslim’ men think that their religion supports them in abusing women. Not only by beating them, also by denying them equal rights at best, giving them little to no rights at all far too often.

Sincere students of the Quran know that this does not in any way represent the system God has decreed for His worshippers. Just as everything is open for abuse, the verse decreed to actually protect women against the violent tendencies in men has also been abused. Submission (Islam) prohibits all forms of oppression, including spousal abuse.

The verse:

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

This is another Q&A for Moslems.

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Solm



The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."  Allah telling Job to beat his wife.
 

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@Mzabalazo

Solm

You are really funny, you responded to that verse remember, I have already posted your response, you said the scholar argue on what it referred to, so how did you know that the verse was debated by scholars
=======================
That verse in not about beating a woman to death.I want a verse which says man can beat they wife to death.Please show me that verse.

Let me jog your memory:

Koran
I'V/ 15 if any one of your women is guilty of lewdness...confine them until death claims them
Funny how men who do the same are treated. I'V/ 16If two men among you commit indecency(sodomy) punish them. If they repend and med their wats, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful. But women should be confined to death
=============================
You playing your tricks again.The point of the two verses is made on the following verse 4:17, which is that God accepts repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon thereafter. This is the point.This door of repentance is open to EVERYBODY.Now what is repentance?Repentance in Islam has requirements, you need to acknowledge the wrong, rectify it (if a need be) and undertake not to repeat the same wrong again.These are the 3 requirements of repentance in Islam.It has nothing to do with mle or female.Now lets get back to your gripe.Repentance has to be soon after the commission of the wrong for it to be valid.In verse 4:15, the point is where a person doesnt repent.In this case that person doesnt acknowledge the wrong, the matter goes to court and such such a person is found guilty.Thats a prescribed punishment for that person.it doesnt matter if they male or female.Verse 4:16, deals with a person who commits a wrong and immediately repent.In other words this person immediately does the 3 requirements.In this case there is no trial.This is the point of the 3 verses.It has nothing to do with what you going on about.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
Yes I agree that it not about beating a woman to death, I concur, on that , but it does not change the encouragement of woman abuse, beating a woman Solm is abuse, and your Quran give that permission, women can be beaten according to Allah' holy book, beating a woman is not a nice thing it is bullying
, power abuse and demeaning, that is very wrong , I cannot agree with such teachings, they bad today and they were bad than. Your religion is perpetuating woman abuse.
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Mzabalazo

Solm

That is an excuse the verse say confine the woman until death claims him, and on the issue of males ,punish them and if they repent let them be. Stop doctoring the scriptures to fit your argument
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Mzabalazo

Solm
A creator, Allah says women should be beaten, is that right, I am glad that I was not born in the Islamic world where such atrocities are promoted by Allah, Allah encourages violence against weaker species in masculity. That is not going to change, it is WRONG, and that is what ISLAM is preaching about women, submit, respect your husbands o edsel a green brush is awaiting you.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.
========================
Ohh I was waiting for this verse.Its the darling of the feminists and armchair critics of Islam.They love it to bit.Im not surprised you also have it in your arsenal.Congratulations.You know whats the problem with the approach of the feminists regarding this verse? They dont know the context of it.Before this verse, man used to beat their woman to a pulp.This verse brought a method of resolving this.If the husband has issues with his wife, he must first talk to her.This is a first step. If talking doesnt yield results, the man can do the next step, which is to impose bedroom sanctions for a lack of a better word.If still that doesnt work, man are told to beat them.But, and a very big but, the Prophet said if it comes to that.The husband must not beat her its going to be visible, never beat her to leave a mark.This made it virtually impossible to do.You cant beat someone and not leave a mark, its impossible.There are books written on this verse, piles and piles of books. The point of the verse was to restrict the man who were soo eager to beat their wives by let them follow the steps than beating woman.Even the beating it was qulified.If you did your research on the verse, you would have known this too.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
Yes I agree that it not about beating a woman to death, I concur, on that , but it does not change the encouragement of woman abuse, beating a woman Solm is abuse, and your Quran give that permission, women can be beaten according to Allah' holy book, beating a woman is not a nice thing it is bullying
, power abuse and demeaning, that is very wrong , I cannot agree with such teachings, they bad today and they were bad than. Your religion is perpetuating woman abuse.
==========================
Please read my reply on that verse
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
I do not dispute that you answered me, but your answers have many many holes and at time you flip- flop and do back somersault in one issu, if you can honestly take time and review your different answers to one issue you may see that.
Some of your answers are just excuses really.
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You not really looking for answers Mzabalazo, your carrying on your agenda.You dont accept anything other than what you already believe is what Islam is.Im pointing out to you that you making uninformed huge jumps on your way to formulating your opinions.Your thought process was flawed.I have NEVER somersaulted on not even ONE issue.This is not true.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
Watch the scholar trying to lighten the issue of woman abuse by saying: beat them slightly, check this out:

Does Islam allow wife beating?

Respected scholars! Does Islam allow wife beating? Some husbands are violent and they say that the Qur'an allows them to beat their wives. Is there any logical explanation given regarding men being allowed to beat their wives, as stated in surat An-Nisa', verse 34?

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

The verse you mention has been greatly misconceived by many people who focus merely on its surface meaning, taking it to allow wife beating. When the setting is not taken into account, it isolates the words in a way that distorts or falsifies the original meaning. Before dealing with the issue of wife-battering in the perspective of Islam, we should keep in mind that the original Arabic wording of the Qur'an is the only authentic source of meaning. If one relies on the translation alone, one is likely to misunderstand it.

Commenting on this issue, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America, states:

"According to the Qur'an the relationship between the husband and wife should be based on mutual love and kindness. Allah says: "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (Ar-Rum: 21)

The Qur'an urges husbands to treat their wives with kindness. [In the event of a family dispute, the Qur'an exhorts the husband to treat his wife kindly and not to overlook her positive aspects]. Allah Almighty says: “Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.” (An-Nisa’: 19)

It is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband in the house. He is the head of the household, and she is supposed to listen to him. But the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife. If there arises any disagreement or dispute among them, then it should be resolved in a peaceful manner. Spouses should seek the counsel of their elders and other respectable family members and friends to batch up the rift and solve the differences.

However, in some cases a husband may use some light disciplinary action in order to correct the moral infraction of his wife, but this is only applicable in extreme cases and it should be resorted to if one is sure it would improve the situation. However, if there is a fear that it might worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then he should avoid it completely.

The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."

Dr. Jamal Badawi, professor at Saint Mary's University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, and a cross-appointed faculty member in the Departments of Religious Studies and Management, adds:

"If the problem relates to the wife's behavior, the husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem persists, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases, however, in which a wife persists in bad habits and showing contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but never on the face, making it more of a symbolic measure than a punitive one.

Even here, that maximum measure is limited by the following:

a. It must be seen as a rare exception to the repeated exhortation of mutual respect, kindness and good treatment. Based on the Qur'an and Hadith, this measure may be used in the cases of lewdness on the part of the wife or extreme refraction and rejection of the husband's reasonable requests on a consistent basis (nushuz). Even then, other measures, such as exhortation, should be tried first.

b. As defined by Hadith, it is not permissible to strike anyone's face, cause any bodily harm or even be harsh. What the Hadith qualifies as "dharban ghayra mubarrih", or light striking, was interpreted by early jurists as a (symbolic) use of siwak! They further qualified permissible "striking" as that which leaves no mark on the body. It is interesting that this latter fourteen-centuries-old qualifier is the criterion used in contemporary American law to separate a light and harmless tap or strike from "abuse" in the legal sense. This makes it clear that even this extreme, last resort, and "lesser of the two evils" measure that may save a marriage does not meet the definitions of "physical abuse," "family violence, " or "wife battering" in the 20th century law in liberal democracies, where such extremes are so commonplace that they are seen as national concerns.

c. The permissibility of such symbolic expression of the seriousness of continued refraction does not imply its desirability. In several hadiths, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) discouraged this measure. Here are some of his sayings in this regard:

"Do not beat the female servants of Allah";

"Some (women) visited my family complaining about their husbands (beating them). These (husbands) are not the best of you."

In another hadith the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: “How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?”

d. True following of the Sunnah is to follow the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who never resorted to that measure, regardless of the circumstances.

e. Islamic teachings are universal in nature. They respond to the needs and circumstances of diverse times, cultures and circumstances. Some measures may work in some cases and cultures or with certain persons but may not be effective in others. By definition, a "permissible" act is neither required, encouraged or forbidden. In fact it may be to spell out the extent of permissibility, such as in the issue at hand, rather than leaving it unrestricted or unqualified, or ignoring it all together. In the absence of strict qualifiers, persons may interpret the matter in their own way, which can lead to excesses and real abuse.

f. Any excess, cruelty, family violence, or abuse committed by any "Muslim" can never be traced, honestly, to any revelatory text (Qur'an or Hadith). Such excesses and violations are to be blamed on the person(s) himself, as it shows that they are paying lip service to Islamic teachings and injunctions and failing to follow the true Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)."


You can also read: Islamic Guidance on Treating Wives Read also: Islam & Wife Beating (Special Folder)

Allah Almighty knows best.

 

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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm

That is an excuse the verse say confine the woman until death claims him, and on the issue of males ,punish them and if they repent let them be. Stop doctoring the scriptures to fit your argument
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Instead of imposing your views on what verses say.Is it not better that hear us Muslims, who have studied this Qur'an and know what it is all about rather than you telling us?I think we have more authority on the Qur'an than you.You should be listening to us instead of us listening to you.We should tell you what it says and means instead of you telling us what it says and means.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
This is the part I am talking about from the scholar:

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
A light tap which leaves no marks... Is no more than a light touch by siwak or toothbrush .

This is unbelievable, people who believe in something wil take every step in defending the undefendable.
If you the Quran teaches not to be violent to women why it bother to teach to almost violent to women, as this scholar puts it , a light touch, something close to violence but not violence.

I really wish you good luck with your found faith.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
Watch the scholar trying to lighten the issue of woman abuse by saying: beat them slightly, check this out
===================
Its not the scholar, the Prophet qualified the beating.I told you Im here to defend what the Qur'an says and what the Prophet did.You cant beat a woman.This is the whole point of that verse, to restrict such a behaviour.The scholar is telling you exactly what I told you.He is not downplaying it, he is giving you the true meaning of that verse.Man abuse woman for all sorts of reasons, it has nothing to do with this verse.The man who use this verse are not any different from the feminist who want to condemn this verse for their feminist causes.Both of them are abusing this verse.They both equally guilty of giving their OWN interpretation of the verse.This is wrong.The problem I have with feminists who want to create an impression that the abuse of woman is due to this verse, they forget that the are males who are not Muslim who beat their wives.They have never seen this verse and they still abuse.So its very sinister to attribute abuse to this verse, its wicked.


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Mzabalazo

Solm
AUG 17, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo

Solm

That is an excuse the verse say confine the woman until death claims him, and on the issue of males ,punish them and if they repent let them be. Stop doctoring the scriptures to fit your argument
===================
Instead of imposing your views on what verses say.Is it not better that hear us Muslims, who have studied this Qur'an and know what it is all about rather than you telling us?I think we have more authority on the Qur'an than you.You should be listening to us instead of us listening to you.We should tell you what it says and means instead of you telling us what it says and means.
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We can go on and on but thanks I have heard all your excuses . Solm I do concur when I did wrong it is not that I am closing my ears, Indo listen , for example I concurred that there is no verse that says beat a woman to the death, but each abpnd every clear and precise verse I post you doctor it tu suit your reasoning, well that is not really strange as you are a law student. The verse said confine a woman to death , you claim it says both males and females should be pardoned when they repent when in actual fact the verse. Speaks sorely on the males, that is doctoring at its best. You. Know what I, know that you know that is not true, we all have conscience and it tells us when we are defending just for the sake of not wanting to loose faith. And danial can also be at play here, I will let you be.
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Mzabalazo

Solm

There is no toothbrush on this verse, read it in the Quran, the person doctoring the scripture is not Mohammed, he died long time ago, the guy it using the toothbrush as an example, or do you want to tell me that the person talking about the toothbrush is Mohammed?
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
A light tap which leaves no marks... Is no more than a light touch by siwak or toothbrush .

This is unbelievable, people who believe in something wil take every step in defending the undefendable.
If you the Quran teaches not to be violent to women why it bother to teach to almost violent to women, as this scholar puts it , a light touch, something close to violence but not violence.
=========================
The point is not violence to woman or almost violence, the point is to RESTRICT violent man.Why are you ignoring that part?The feminists and the violent man are two sides of the same coin.They are the same.Both of them commit excesses which the Qur'an expressly prohibits.

I really wish you good luck with your found faith
==================
I dont really need luck but thank you anyway.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
The prophet qualified violence against women so that is wrong, if it is right to you then that is very unfortunate and we do have a law against that in this corrupt country.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm

There is no toothbrush on this verse, read it in the Quran, the person doctoring the scripture is not Mohammed, he died long time ago, the guy it using the toothbrush as an example, or do you want to tell me that the person talking about the toothbrush is Mohammed?
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Do you know the Arabic word used in the verse? There is a hadith about this verse, which qualifies it.The Prophet made an example of a miswak ( its like a toothbrush used to clean teeth that time).This argument about this verse is nothing new, it goes back years.Thats why I told you there are books of this, thesis done by both Muslims are non-Muslims.Its an old topic that keeps resurfacing and disappearing and resurfacing.There is nothing new here.Im happy that this verse is here, it serves many purposes.It makes clear the position of Islam on abuse.Its not open season beating of woman.Im glad its there.
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Mzabalazo

Solm

restrict violent men by tempting them to continue been voilent. In any addiction treatment Solm you do not encourage people to associate with anything that will trigger the use of an illicit,drug or alcohol.

You are do not sieze to amaze me with your vague excuses
Take this: what about a person who is a Moslem who has an issue with alcohol , why not introduce the same rule, RESTRICT them by lallowing them to drink one part of alcohol in every drink they take?

This is what I call excuses , you throw lame excuses to me and you expect me accept them as answer.
Dude that is the worst excuse I have ever heard in my life ( lol).
Like I said this is what you call a debate.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
The prophet qualified violence against women so that is wrong, if it is right to you then that is very unfortunate and we do have a law against that in this corrupt country.
====================
Its wrong for the Prophet to restrict violent man? Should he let them beat woman? This country has bigger problems than this verse.The abuse is not only on woman, kids as young as a year are raped, granmothers are raped, husbands shoot and k#ill their wives and kids.There isnt an abuse under the sun that is not in this country.If blaming this verse is your way of coping with all these abuses in this country, knock yourself out.
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Mzabalazo

Solm

I don't care , you explained them very well to understand, you said " almost beating a woman " is a RESTRICTION to women bashers, that scientifically doesn't hold water, whether I understand Arabic or not, you who understand Abic has interpreted well enough for me to understand that it still isn't right.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
AUG 17, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo

Solm
The prophet qualified violence against women so that is wrong, if it is right to you then that is very unfortunate and we do have a law against that in this corrupt country.
====================
Its wrong for the Prophet to restrict violent man? Should he let them beat woman? This country has bigger problems than this verse.The abuse is not only on woman, kids as young as a year are raped, granmothers are raped, husbands shoot and k#ill their wives and kids.There isnt an abuse under the sun that is not in this country.If blaming this verse is your way of coping with all these abuses in this country, knock yourself out.
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First of my argument is not perpertuating child abuse, or crime, my argument isn't about which crime is better as they are all the same. So I do not understand what you are on about , as if agreeing with the bashing of women by Quran will tone down the violence in this country. Solm you like it or not we have good and bad people in any religion, it is a fallacy to believe that a certain religion or not been religious produces better people, that is a fact and it is evident in every country and people. So do not know what you are on about? It wrong for Allah to allow women bashers to almost beat their wives ( this is a compromise I make to pretend I agree with you in this lame excuse of RESTRICTION as I have pointed that you do not temp people with their addiction)

You see how you fly around and then claim I do not debate in good faith.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm

restrict violent men by tempting them to continue been voilent. In any addiction treatment Solm you do not encourage people to associate with anything that will trigger the use of an illicit,drug or alcohol.
==================
Beating a wife is not an addiction, it anger management. person like that is a time bomb waiting to explode not only on the wife but anybody who presses his bottons wrong.Your example is not fitting.Im amazed at how you ignore the different steps prescribe here.You only want to focus on the beating part.Thats your only fascination.

You are do not sieze to amaze me with your vague excuses
Take this: what about a person who is a Moslem who has an issue with alcohol , why not introduce the same rule, RESTRICT them by lallowing them to drink one part of alcohol in every drink they take?
====================
Are you really comparing a drunkard with a violent man?Look two look the same in your eyes?

This is what I call excuses , you throw lame excuses to me and you expect me accept them as answer.
Dude that is the worst excuse I have ever heard in my life ( lol).
Like I said this is what you call a debate.
====================
Excuses is what feminists and violent man do to this verse, not what Im telling you. Yes a debate is between two people, not one person reharshing the same things over and over again.
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Solm

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Solm

I don't care , you explained them very well to understand, you said " almost beating a woman " is a RESTRICTION to women bashers, that scientifically doesn't hold water, whether I understand Arabic or not, you who understand Abic has interpreted well enough for me to understand that it still isn't right.
===========================
This 'almost beating a woman' was your words. I was using your terminology.The Arabic term used of course is a different story. I didnt say 'almost beating a woman' is a restriction.I said following the steps that you ignore, is restricting violent man.Thats why Im saying t time I feel like Im talking to myself.You not only read verses selectively, the manner is which you recieve my posts is also selective.
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Solm

I need to go now.Cheers
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Mzabalazo

Solm

The scholar says this means a light beating , a touch similar to using a tooth brush, that is almost beating, that is from the scholar explaination , I had to coin it that because in his argument , you have read it he denies that it is beating, here I am dealing with two Moslem interpretation of this verse , you and the scholar who is responding to a question from a Moslem.

To expand a bit your answer is as worse as this guy's. Check this, let us make sense of your answer: say there are two Moslem addicted to two different behaviors, one is a woman basher and the other is an alcoholic, so you say to a woman basher in order to RESTRICT him from beating a woman, beat your woman slightly, after you have tried such and such and she is not obeying. Why not say the same to an alcohol addict in order to RESTRICT him from been drunk, mix one part of alcohol in each and every drink you take.

This Solm in a nut shell this shows that you are making excuses about this unbecoming behaviour of the prophet, of encouraging violence against women.
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Solm
There people who are addicted to violence, addiction is not about drugs only. Theses s# ex addiction gambling addiction as well as people who are addicted to abusing women, they do dot beat them out of anger , but they are sadist, to them a woman should be made to feel inferior and they get a kick and sexu# al arousal from beating women,that. Is different from people who cannot manager anger, that is another subject.
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Mzabalazo

AUG 17, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.
========================
Ohh I was waiting for this verse.Its the darling of the feminists and armchair critics of Islam.They love it to bit.Im not surprised you also have it in your arsenal.Congratulations.You know whats the problem with the approach of the feminists regarding this verse? They dont know the context of it.Before this verse, man used to beat their woman to a pulp.This verse brought a method of resolving this.If the husband has issues with his wife, he must first talk to her.This is a first step. If talking doesnt yield results, the man can do the next step, which is to impose bedroom sanctions for a lack of a better word.If still that doesnt work, man are told to beat them.But, and a very big but, the Prophet said if it comes to that.The husband must not beat her its going to be visible, never beat her to leave a mark.This made it virtually impossible to do.You cant beat someone and not leave a mark, its impossible.There are books written on this verse, piles and piles of books. The point of the verse was to restrict the man who were soo eager to beat their wives by let them follow the steps than beating woman.Even the beating it was qulified.If you did your research on the verse, you would have known this too.
Repo


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This is exactly what I am talking about worshipping many gods is a habit, and deep rooted practice, yet it can be dealt with abruptly because some dictator in paradise cannot compromise on that and when it comes to miseries that people come across day to day, like slavery Islam allows for a compromise, I cannot get it. When you yourself was preaching about humanity, practicing religion that benefit people, yet slavery as inhumane as it is it secondary, where is humanity in all that?

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Mzabalazo

Solm

You are a real lawyer , I doesn't matter who initiated slavery here, all that matters is that the Quran perpertuate that, sleeping with a slave woman is fine in the eyes of the Quran, the verses say so , that is the bone of contention ( not who invented slavery, why should Quran support something that is wrong , just because it was never initiated by Islam, this is what all your answer are about, I am no arguing about who initiated first slavery) .
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Mzabalazo

AUG 17, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 17, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.
========================
Ohh I was waiting for this verse.Its the darling of the feminists and armchair critics of Islam.They love it to bit.Im not surprised you also have it in your arsenal.Congratulations.You know whats the problem with the approach of the feminists regarding this verse? They dont know the context of it.Before this verse, man used to beat their woman to a pulp.This verse brought a method of resolving this.If the husband has issues with his wife, he must first talk to her.This is a first step. If talking doesnt yield results, the man can do the next step, which is to impose bedroom sanctions for a lack of a better word.If still that doesnt work, man are told to beat them.But, and a very big but, the Prophet said if it comes to that.The husband must not beat her its going to be visible, never beat her to leave a mark.This made it virtually impossible to do.You cant beat someone and not leave a mark, its impossible.There are books written on this verse, piles and piles of books. The point of the verse was to restrict the man who were soo eager to beat their wives by let them follow the steps than beating woman.Even the beating it was qulified.If you did your research on the verse, you would have known this too.
Repo


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The prophet said they can beat a woman and leave no mark which is impossible to do that is as stupid as saying steal but do not get caught, do you think that should deter thieves , Solm
cheers take care.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

First of my argument is not perpertuating child abuse, or crime, my argument isn't about which crime is better as they are all the same. So I do not understand what you are on about , as if agreeing with the bashing of women by Quran will tone down the violence in this country
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You brought this up, why dont you tell me what you on about? Oww I see now its gone to 'bashing'? Why dont you translate the verse as 'knock out' while you at it.Just get it over and done with.

Solm you like it or not we have good and bad people in any religion, it is a fallacy to believe that a certain religion or not been religious produces better people, that is a fact and it is evident in every country and people.
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You opened this door here, it wasnt me.I know there are different people in every religion.Thats why Im telling you that Im here to defend only what the Qur'an says and what the Prophet did.Im not here to defend any other behaviour from anyone.Each person is accountable to God for their actions.I wasnt saying Muslims are saint, far from it.I dont like pointing fingers and discussing the faults of other people, I have my own and they enough to pre-occupy me.I was just amazed tht you said this country is better than what is discussed by this verse.You brought this up my sister.

It wrong for Allah to allow women bashers to almost beat their wives ( this is a compromise I make to pretend I agree with you in this lame excuse of RESTRICTION as I have pointed that you do not temp people with their addiction)
=========================
How is telling a hot head to first talk to the wife, then impose sanctions and 'bash' her ( to borrow from you or should I say knoch out?) tempting?These three are completely different actions, they not related to eachother at all.I dont understand how you could say these actions are tempting the guy.Never, his being moved from one different step to another is teaching him self-control.Its therapy for him. If the steps were ukukhomba kuqala, then umsikaze mawuhluleka bese uyamshaya kancane.I would agree with you.Manje the actions are different.What I take from the verse and what the Prophet said is that, ideally to solve problems is by talking.Sometimes a simple communication does the work.Dont pile up grudges on top of one another.Just talking to the better half works.On the other hand, there are woman who are also wild.Its not fair to deal with this soo one sided as if there are no violent woman.The truth is that there are.So we need to be level in how we deal with this.Other woman bashaya kuqala.Then you just dont know how to talk to someone like that.You must also consider that side.

You see how you fly around and then claim I do not debate in good faith
=======================
I fly around manje?Cool it with the drama.As nyongoyevenda says 'tjoo'.lol
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm

The scholar says this means a light beating , a touch similar to using a tooth brush, that is almost beating, that is from the scholar explaination , I had to coin it that because in his argument , you have read it he denies that it is beating, here I am dealing with two Moslem interpretation of this verse , you and the scholar who is responding to a question from a Moslem.
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Its not really a beating, also it not not a beating.Its somewhere in between, in other words its impossible to do.Which is the point of the verse, you cant do the impossible.Meaning dont do it.I know there are abuse cases among Muslims.These abuses are based on cultural reasons than this verse.They have nothing to do with the verse.

To expand a bit your answer is as worse as this guy's. Check this, let us make sense of your answer: say there are two Moslem addicted to two different behaviors, one is a woman basher and the other is an alcoholic, so you say to a woman basher in order to RESTRICT him from beating a woman, beat your woman slightly, after you have tried such and such and she is not obeying. Why not say the same to an alcohol addict in order to RESTRICT him from been drunk, mix one part of alcohol in each and every drink you take.
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No no no I dont classify bashing woman as an addiction.This is bordering on justifying it.Im surprised that YOU will use that kind of reasoning.Its not me, its you doing that.As for the alcohol example, this is exactly how Islam approached it.The drunkards were first told not to come for prayers drunk, thereafter you had verse with a message that drinking is really not a good idea, after that you had very firm verses prohibiting it and classifying it together with gambling as abominations of the devil.This is how Islam deals with addiction.

This Solm in a nut shell this shows that you are making excuses about this unbecoming behaviour of the prophet, of encouraging violence against women.
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You built this argument not me.I disagree strongly with half your argument, you cant drag me into that conclusion.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
There people who are addicted to violence, addiction is not about drugs only.
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Hmm this one is a hard selll. I wont lie to you.Its really about being unable to manage your anger then you explode.You going to have to do much better than that to sell violence as an addiction.

Theses s# ex addiction gambling addiction as well as people who are addicted to abusing women, they do dot beat them out of anger , but they are sadist, to them a woman should be made to feel inferior and they get a kick and sexu# al arousal from beating women,that.
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I agree about sex addiction and gambling, thats as far as I go with you.To me it sounds like you describing kinky stuff going on behind closed doors.No comment.

Is different from people who cannot manager anger, that is another subject.
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How is it different?Make your case and convince me.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

This is exactly what I am talking about worshipping many gods is a habit, and deep rooted practice, yet it can be dealt with abruptly because some dictator in paradise cannot compromise on that and when it comes to miseries that people come across day to day, like slavery Islam allows for a compromise, I cannot get it. When you yourself was preaching about humanity, practicing religion that benefit people, yet slavery as inhumane as it is it secondary, where is humanity in all that?
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Your addiction basket is very big or unlimited, you throw everything inside.Worshipping many gods is idolatry, a very big deal.That Oneness of God resonates all the way from the Old Testament to the Qur'an.That why I separated action belonging to God, which is worship and those between fellow man.You cant get it because of your basket that mixes too many different things and make them one.This is the problem.Yes the essence of it or the point is to show humanity to fellow man.This is the goal.But to get people from different backgrounds to this goal is a very bing ask.Mind you that you dealing with human beings here.You need to look at it this way, a believer with bad habits is more important in the eyes of God than a disbeliever with good habits.Let me explain to you why.Because every action is judged by intention, a believer does things to please God and awaits God's reward either in this world or the next.Meanwhile someone who disbelieves doesnt have this motivation, they have not expactations from anybody for any good they do.God says on the Day of Judgment, He will ONLY reward those who believed in Him and did good things with FAITH in Him that He will reward.This is very important to understand.God says in the Qur'an many people will come to Him on the Day of Judgement with good deeds as big as mountains.But because these deeds were not done to please Him, He will crush them to dust.This could be because those people made their deeds so that others can say look at so and so how generous or giving he is.This is because the person did good with the expectation of getting the praise from others, with him subsequently getting the praise.Thats all the reward he is getting and will recieve nothing on the Day of Judgement.Therefore the underlying determining factor with every action is intention.Thats why every deed will be rewarded according to intention.This is a very important principle in Islam, it runs through everything.Thats why there is a relationship between actions and spirituality.Coming to the issue you raised, somebody who gets on the road to the goal of serving humanity with the intention of reaching the goal, will be rewarded not for the action he did along the way to this goal, but for his intentions.This is how you must look at this.God condemns oppression because its unjust, slavery is oppression.Therefore fro those Muslims who owned slaves, who had to gradually 'upgrade' their treatment , while getting the fundamentals of Islam in place will get the reward of the goal.Why do you need the fundamentals first?Because the fundamentals give you a spiritual framework from which to operate.You must not only understand why to free a slave but you must also understand the spiritual impact of that.Every action has both the physical dimension and the spiritual one.If you are slave and you worked through the hardship of being free.You will also be rewarded for physically working towards justice and for the spiritual side.The spiritual aspect on the slave is the he or she must know that he or she no longer works to please the owner, but he or she works to please God and ONLY God.I hope you understand now.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm

You are a real lawyer , I doesn't matter who initiated slavery here
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Of course it does.Justice demands that it does matter.

all that matters is that the Quran perpertuate that, sleeping with a slave woman is fine in the eyes of the Quran, the verses say so , that is the bone of contention
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This where your logic has cracks.You cant let the person who started this terrible practice off and hold accountable someone who is coming to remove the practice.This is ungratefulness.Dont make judgement based on the method, make judgement based on the objective.In other words, judge the action not by the method but by intention.I understand the impatience of wanting out of slavery immediately.Like I side, inside the horrible act of slavery there are lessons to be learnt by both the owner and the slave.There is wisdom in that 'delay'.You need to know not only the physical freedom but the spiritual side too.That takes time.You need to understand this to understand how God operates.

( not who invented slavery, why should Quran support something that is wrong , just because it was never initiated by Islam, this is what all your answer are about, I am no arguing about who initiated first slavery) .
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You cant say Qur'an supported something wrong when it worked to abolish the same thing.This is why its not right to judge things by the method used.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

The prophet said they can beat a woman and leave no mark which is impossible to do that is as stupid as saying steal but do not get caught, do you think that should deter thieves , Solm
cheers take care.
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Precisely, you almost there.Its impossible to do.Thats the point.You cant do the impossible, therefore you cant beat the wife.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
You are something else mate, that is a lame excuse, Mohhammed did know to say you don't beat woman, that is in the Arabic vocabulary, your seem not to know that you can beat a person under their feet and leave no bruises. But what I would like to raise is that. You Moslems interpret this scripture differently, some of your scholars say yes you can beat a woman but light. That is what I have posted, the scholar says you can use a tooth brush( I have posted that it's in front of your eyes but yui will ignore it) and you say this scripture says means do not beat a woman as you cannot do that with leaving bruises, the other scholar ( I will cut and paste for you in the morning says the word that is translated from the Arabic word as beat means avoid, not beat and do not leave bruises. I repeat the word translated beat is wrongly translated as beat in English , so can you see that there are many versions of explaining this word by Moslems, this is really hopeless . Guys you are joking.
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Mzabalazo

AUG 17, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo

The prophet said they can beat a woman and leave no mark which is impossible to do that is as stupid as saying steal but do not get caught, do you think that should deter thieves , Solm
cheers take care.
=================================
Precisely, you almost there.Its impossible to do.Thats the point.You cant do the impossible, therefore you cant beat the wife.
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 Solm you are a pathetic liar, here is the explaination from a scholar , you totally contradict it, how is it impossible to beat a woman when a scholar says you can a use a tooth brush to beat a woman.
my friend you really something else, and you do not shy away from cooking up stories.

Question:
Does Islam permit a man to hit his wife?
 


Summary Answer:
Yes, but only if she doesn't do as he asks.  The beating must cease if the woman complies with her husband's demands.  Beating is also intended to be the last resort of coercing submission, behind verbal abuse and abandonment.

According her testimony in the Hadith, Muhammad, physically struck his favorite wife for leaving the house without his permission.  It is not known how he treated his less-favored wives.
 


The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."  Allah telling Job to beat his wife.
 


From the Hadith:

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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
You are something else mate, that is a lame excuse, Mohhammed did know to say you don't beat woman, that is in the Arabic vocabulary, your seem not to know that you can beat a person under their feet and leave no bruises
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Sometines I cant help laughing at your posts.You take comlicated things very lightly, you make them simple.Dont you think these violent man themselves dont know that beating woman is not right?Do you think it never dawned on them that? You think a few word phrase 'dont beat your wife' will solve this situation? Get a grip and wake up.You not being realistic.Such a person needs far more than that.If you have something better than these 3 steps, lets hear it.I want something practical and realistic in dealing with the situation.You just making noise and you have no solution to this.

But what I would like to raise is that. You Moslems interpret this scripture differently, some of your scholars say yes you can beat a woman but light. That is what I have posted, the scholar says you can use a tooth brush( I have posted that it's in front of your eyes but yui will ignore it) and you say this scripture says means do not beat a woman as you cannot do that with leaving bruises, the other scholar ( I will cut and paste for you in the morning says the word that is translated from the Arabic word as beat means avoid, not beat and do not leave bruises. I repeat the word translated beat is wrongly translated as beat in English , so can you see that there are many versions of explaining this word by Moslems, this is really hopeless . Guys you are joking
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Its not about different interpretations, its about understanding the purpose of the verse as opposed to fiddling with a word.This fiddling with the word of the verse is the games feminists and violent man are playing.They both want to stretch the meaning of the word to accommodate their extreme views.In so doing they want to drag scholars and everybody into this playing with the word contest they doing and forget the purpose of the whole verse, the point of the whole thing.The devil is in the details.Both you and your violent guys counterpart can knock yourself out playing that game.Im not joining that game.


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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm you are a pathetic liar, here is the explaination from a scholar , you totally contradict it, how is it impossible to beat a woman when a scholar says you can a use a tooth brush to beat a woman.
my friend you really something else, and you do not shy away from cooking up stories.
==========================
Oh no dont drag me into this mess.Im not in favour of violent behaviour to woman, neither am I in favour of you.I dont support extremists on either sides,you guys can have at it until kingdom come.As I said, to me both of you are two sides of the same coin.Knock yourself out with the ping pong game with your counterparts.I told you where I stand on this issue.

Summary Answer:
Yes, but only if she doesn't do as he asks. The beating must cease if the woman complies with her husband's demands. Beating is also intended to be the last resort of coercing submission, behind verbal abuse and abandonment.
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Wait where is this coming from now?This is not from the above Q&A.When I look the games you people play.It amazes me that you and people like you want to go hard on the violent guys to crucify them using this word in a verse, and ignore, completely ignore the role a woman plays in escalating the situation to this level.You want to strangle the violent guys and forget your contribution in the conflict, the violent guys want to strangle you and not manage their anger.You lot are the same, you can have at it.

According her testimony in the Hadith, Muhammad, physically struck his favorite wife for leaving the house without his permission. It is not known how he treated his less-favored wives.
====================
The Prophet never lifted a finger on any of his wives.You posting this and say Im cooking stories? This is the danger of the game you play, because neither the verse or word completely satisfies your extreme views, you resort to naking up things. This is inevitable exercise because of the route you taking.

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
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Why is this here again?

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife.
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Whose translation are you using of the Qur'an? The word in NOT green branch, this is an exageration, the correct word is green GRASS.Job was one of the most patient of the Prophets of God, his wife was unsettling him in his patience.So God gave him permission to strike her with GRASS so she could stop unsettling him.Even then God tells him not to break his oath, meaning he must not be excessive.Now you going after Job, who persistantly tolerated his wife that was consistantly cursing and complaining to him.You want to completely ignore the role she consistantly plays in unsettling Job, a very good guy.This is what is devilish with your ways.

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Mzabalazo

Solm

You guys you need to make up your minds about your story on this matter:



This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
The neutrality of this article is disputed. (May 2012)
The examples and perspective in this article may not include all significant viewpoints. (May 2012)
An editor has expressed a concern that this article lends undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, controversies or matters relative to the article subject as a whole. (May 2012)
This is a sub-article of an-Nisa
The Quran, chapter 4 (An-Nisa), verse 34:
“ Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).— translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
Transliteration: Arrijalu qawwamoonaAAala annisa-i bima faddalaAllahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabimaanfaqoo min amwalihim fassalihatu qanitatunhafithatun lilghaybi bima hafithaAllahu wallatee takhafoonanushoozahunna faAAithoohunna wahjuroohunnafee almadajiAAi wadriboohunna fa-in ataAAnakumfala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kanaAAaliyyan kabeera
”
Part of a series on the
Quran

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List of translations · English translations
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v t e
In the Qur'an, verse 34 of Surah an-Nisa (abbreviated as 4:34) concerns the issue of marital relations in Islam. This verse is interpreted by some Muslims as giving women complete control over their own income and property, while obliging men to be responsible for maintaining their female relatives.[1] Some Muslim scholars admit that the word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.[2][3][4][5] Some Muslims, such as Islamic feminist groups, argue that Muslim men use the text as an excuse for domestic violence.[6] However, some have translated "beat" as "separate", as Arabic in its nature is multi-meaning language, and as such no word has a fixed sole meaning.[7]
There have been several fatwas against domestic violence.[8][9][10]
Ibn Abbas, a companion of the Muhammed, wrote the earliest commentary on the Quran, and to this part he himself said this is only a light tap.[11]
Egyptian Cleric Galal Al-Khatib explained, “Maybe a light slap on her shoulder, or maybe a not-so-light pinch, or a kind of gentle shove. He should make her feel that he wants to reform her, and let her know that he is displeased with her. It is like saying: None of the measures that work with sensitive people work with you. A word would be enough for any wife with lofty morals, but with you, words do not help.”[12]
Ibn Kathir commented in his tafsir, “(If the man asks his wife to come to his bed and she declines, the angels will keep cursing her until the morning.) Muslim recorded it with the wording,
(If the wife goes to sleep while ignoring her husband's bed, the angels will keep cursing her until the morning.)
[...](beat them) means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj”[13]
Al-Nawawi explicated in Reliance of the Traveller, “if keeping from her is ineffectual, it is permissible for him to hit her if he believes that hitting her will bring her back to the right path, though if he does not think so, it is not permissible. His hitting her may not be in a way that injures her, and is his last recourse to save the family.”[14]
Contents  [hide] 
1 Other translation of the Verse 4:34
1.1 Context of the verse
2 Background on the roles of men and women in Islam
3 Ideas detailed in An-Nisa, 34
3.1 Qanitat
3.2 Nushûz
4 Debates and discussion about the text
4.1 Admonishing and separation in bed
4.2 iḍribūhunna
4.3 Other perspectives on idribihûnna
5 In popular culture
6 See also
7 References
8 External links
[edit]Other translation of the Verse 4:34

“ Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.[15] ”
- as translated in Sahih International, at Quran.com
“ "Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great.[16] ”
- Translation by Dr. Ahmad Shafaat
“ Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.[17] ”
- Translation by Muhsin Khan
[edit]Context of the verse
The late Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad Hussein Tabataba'i provides the following exegesis on 4:34 from both Sunni and Shi'ite sources in his Mizan:
Ibn Abi Hatim has narrated through Ash’ath ibn ‘Abdil-Malik from al-Hasan that he said: “A woman came to the Prophet complaining against her husband that he had slapped her. The Messenger of Allah said: “Retribution”. Then Allah revealed the verse, “Men are maintainers of women… (4:34); so the woman returned without retribution [ad-Durr 'l-munthur, as-Suyuti]. [as-Suyuti] has narrated it from the Prophet through other chains too. Some of them say that the Messenger of Allah said: “I wanted one thing (retribution), but Allah decided otherwise"...there were some instances where Allah had amended some prophetic orders by adding to or deleting from it, but it was only in his administrative order, not in matters of the law ordained by him for his people, otherwise it would have been an invalid nullification...the Messenger of Allah used to wonder aloud: "How can you embrace the woman with a hand you had hit her with?". It is narrated also in al-Kafi through his chain from Abu Maryam from Abu Ja’far (Imam Muhammad al-Baqir) that he said: “The Messenger of Allah said: “What! Does one of you hit his wife, and then attempt to embrace her?". Countless such statements are found in the traditions; and one may understand from them the Islamic views on this subject.[18]
[edit]Background on the roles of men and women in Islam

Further information: Namus and Women in Islam
The Qur'an states that men are the guardians of women, and thus responsible for earning livelihood for the family and female relatives. Women, however, are given complete control over their own income and property.[1] Nevertheless, they are responsible for educating the children, as God has given the one preference over the other. Man is also considered to be the head of the family.[19] The Qur'an recommends that wives be obedient and adaptable to their husbands. Wives should also keep the secrets of their husbands and protect their honor and integrity. Islamic scholars consider this important in running a smooth family system.[20]
Iranian feminists have concentrated on one particular verse of the Qur'an ([Quran 4:34]), part of which reads `Men are the protectors of and maintainers of women because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means’. Feminist theologians in Iran argue that as the only distinction made between Muslims in the Qur'an is that between the pious and the impious ([Quran 49:13]), the word taken to mean `protectors and providers’ in the verse above is more appropriately interpreted as initiator in affairs’.[1]
For both men and women, zulm- known in English as actions of 'cruelty' against someone- is explicitly prohibited.[6]
[edit]Ideas detailed in An-Nisa, 34

[edit]Qanitat
The verse commands women to be qanitat. The term has been used in Quran 33:35 to refer to men and women alike, who are obedient to God. Some commentators use the term to mean obedience to the husband, while others assert that it means obedience to God. Some "scholars" agree that the husband does not have absolute control over his wife, and her first loyalty is to God.[21]
[edit]Nushûz
The term "nushûz" (نُشُوز) is translated as "disloyalty and ill-conduct" by Yusuf Ali, "rebellion" by Pickthall and "desertion" by Shakir. Other scholars have drawn on hadiths to interpret the meaning of the word.
Ahmad Shafaat, a 21st century Sunni Islamic scholar says:
“ The literal meaning of the word is "rebellion". But rebellion against whom and in what sense? We should certainly not think of this in terms the rebellion of the ruled against a ruler in a sultanate or dictatorship and conclude that it consists of the wife disobeying some of the husband's commands. This is because the same word nushuz is used in case of a husband in verse 128 of the same surah 4, where it is said: "If a woman fears nushuz on her husband's part..." So nushûz is something that can be feared by the husband on the wife's part or by the wife on her husband's part. It cannot therefore be understood in terms of the ruler-ruled relationship. To correctly understand the meaning of the word, it must be noted that both in the verse under consideration and in verse 128 the reference to nushuz is followed by a reference to the break-up of the marriage (see vv. 35, 130). If this context is kept in mind, then it becomes evident that nushuz means the type of behavior on the part of the husband or the wife which is so disturbing for the other that their living together becomes difficult. ...In short, nushûz is a behavior on the part of one marriage partner which comes out of ill-will and seriously disturbs the other partner.[22] ”
Muhammad Asad notes that Muhammad stipulated in The Farewell Sermon that "beating should be resorted to only if the wife 'has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct'.[23][page needed]
[edit]Debates and discussion about the text

In response to nushûz, admonishment, leaving wives in their beds and idribihunna are permitted. Islamic scholars agree such actions can not be undertaken for any reason other than those mentioned in the Qur'an (see nushûz).[24] Muslim scholars also hold that this response is only permitted only if the husband has fulfilled his obligations, both those required of him by the Quran and those in stipulated in the marriage contract.[25]
[edit]Admonishing and separation in bed
The first response to nushuz is wā'z (‘وَعَظ’), meaning to first admonish or scold the wife of her behaviour.[20] There is strong agreement amongst Muslim scholars that this admonishment must be conducted in a spirit of reconciliation. Should the nushuz continue, the next step is to refuse to share the bed with the wife. Again Muslim scholars emphasize on the spirit of healing while conducting this action.[25]
Interpretations of the Qur'an also reflect the order of the actions prescribed in 4:34:[26][27][28]
As to those women on whose part you see ill conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, God is Ever Most High, Most Great."[29]
[edit]iḍribūhunna
The word iḍribūhunna comes from the root ḍaraba (Arabic: ضرب). The word has been used many times in the Quran to mean: to hit, to travel the earth, to set up, to condemn and to give examples. Thus scholars interpret iḍribūhunna differently. Whereas many interpret it to mean "to strike", others hold that the term means "to separate".[25] Such an action is to be administered only if neither the husband nor the wife are willing to divorce.[30] In the context of this verse, iḍribūhunna has also been interpreted to mean "go to bed with them",[31] the Arabic root word "daraba" being taken from the prosaic example "the stud-camel covered the she-camel".[32]
Muslim scholars who permit hitting, emphasize that it must not be harsh,[30][33][34] but rather light.[35][36][37][38] Muslim men are never to hit their spouse's face, nor to hit them in such a way as would leave marks on their body. Scholars suggest that the response administered should be in proportion to the fault committed.[39] Traditionally the idea of beating was "with a toothbrush"[40][41][42] or "with a folded handkerchief."[43]
Many jurists interpret iḍribūhunna as "more or less symbolic."[23][44] Others, however, argue that a mere symbolic administration would be pointless and rather should be an "energetic demonstration" of the love of the husband. But it is agreed that the demonstration should not seriously hurt the wife.[30]
The 2007 translation The Sublime Quran by Laleh Bakhtiar translates iḍribūhunna not as 'beat them' but as 'go away from them'. The introduction to her translation discusses the linguistic and shari‘ah reasons in Arabic for understanding this verb in context. The Prophet never beat his wives, and his example from the Sunnah informs the interpretation of this verse. This interpretation is supported by the fact that some other verses, such as 4:101 which contains word darabtum (derivation from daraba), demonstrate also the interpretation of Arabic word daraba to have meaning 'going' or 'moving'.
The book Woman in the Shade of Islam by Saudi scholar Abdul Rahman al-Sheha stated that a man may "beat" his wife only if it occurs without "hurting, breaking a bone, leaving blue or black marks on the body and avoiding hitting the face, at any cost." American Muslim preacher Yusuf Estes has stated that men can give "a crack" used by things such as a yardstick or a rolled up newspaper.[6]
A widely used 1930 English translation of the Koran by British Muslim scholar Marmaduke Pickthall determined the verse to mean that, as a last resort, men can "scourge" their wives. He did not view a form physical contact as the correct understanding of the text.[6]
[edit]Other perspectives on idribihûnna
Some jurists argue that even when hitting is acceptable under the Qur'an, it is still discountenanced.[45][46][47] Furthermore, the Qur'an commands husbands to be kind to their wives.[48]
Furthermore, some jurists argue, the woman is not required to accept her husband's punishment, and the wife can divorce anytime. The wife can also take the husband to court, should he abuse her. If the case is decided in her favor, she has the right to retaliate against her husband.[30]
In his book No god but God, University of Southern California scholar Reza Aslan, stated that false interpretations of the text have occurred because Koranic commentary "has been the exclusive domain of Muslim men."[6]
The Islamic prophet Mohammed himself, according to Islamic tradition, never once struck a woman in argument. This fact is sometimes cited in debates about the text.[6]
Muslim feminist writer Asra Q. Nomani has argued:
Indeed, Muslim scholars and leaders have long been doing what I call "the 4:34 dance" -- they reject outright violence against women but accept a level of aggression that fits contemporary definitions of domestic violence.[6]
[edit]In popular culture

The controversial 11-minute film Submission, directed by Theo van Gogh, depicts a beaten Muslim woman with her naked body painted with this verse on her back.[49]
[edit]See also

Islam and domestic violence
Criticism of the Qur'an
Women and Islam
Female figures in the Qur'an
[edit]References

^ a b c Iman Hashim, Reconciling Islam and feminism, Gender & Development, 1999, vol. 7, issue 1, p 7, ISSN 13552074
^ http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/family/marital-relationships/450026-wife-beating-in-islam.html
^ http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/family/marital-relationships/174868.html
^ http://islamqa.info/en/ref/482/wife%20beating
^ http://www.islamicfinder.org/articles/article.php?id=307
^ a b c d e f g Nomani, Asra Q. (October 22, 2006). "Clothes Aren't the Issue". Washington Post.
^ cf. Ahmed Ali's translation
^ http://allahcentric.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/muslim-scholars-on-spousal-abuse-under-islamic-law-it-is-absolutely-unlawful-to-abuse-a-wife-injure-her-or-insult-her-dignity
^ http://www.canadiancouncilofimams.com/pages/EFkFEEAkEuvurqQPyi.shtml
^ http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/fatwa-honour-killings-misogyny-domestic-violence.pdf
^ http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=34&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
^ Excerpts from a sermon by Egyptian cleric Galal Al-Khatib, which aired on Al-Rahma TV on December 24, 2008. [memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP222909 "Egyptian Cleric Galal Al-Khatib Explains Wife-Beating in Islam"]. MEMRI TV. Retrieved 31 July 2012.
^ "Dealing with the Wife's Ill-Conduct". Tafsir Ibn Kathir. Quran Tafsir. Retrieved 31 July 2012.
^ Ahmad, Misri (1994). “Reliance of the Traveler”. Beltsville, MD: Amana.
^ http://quran.com/4/34
^ http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran-4-34.htm
^ "Read Quran (An-Nisa)". The Qur'an. Search The Truth. Retrieved 31 July 2012.
^ Tafsir al-Mizan, by al-Allamah as-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba-i, translated by Sayyid Saeed Akhtar Rizvi. V. 8, p.217,220
^ Amin Ahsan Islahi, Tadabbur-i-Qur'an, 2nd ed., vol. 2, (Lahore: Faran Foundation, 1986), p. 278
^ a b Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, Mizan, Chapter:The Social Law of Islam
^ Ali, Kecia (2006). "Marriage". In Leaman, Oliver. The Qur'an: an encyclopedia. Great Britain: Routeledge. pp. 389–392 (look at 392)
^ Tafseer of Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 34
^ a b Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Qur'an (his translation of the Qur'an).
^ Saleem Shahzad, Can a Husband force his Wife to wear the Hijab?, Renaissance - Monthly Islamic Journal, 11(11), November 2001.
^ a b c Ammar, Nawal H. (May 2007). "Wife Battery in Islam: A Comprehensive Understanding of Interpretations". Violence Against Women 13 (5): 519–523. doi:10.1177/1077801207300658. PMID 17478676.
^ Abdullah Yusuf Ali in his Quranic commentary states that: "In case of family jars four steps are mentioned, to be taken in that order. (1) Perhaps verbal advice or admonition may be sufficient; (2) if not, sex relations may be suspended; (3) if this is not sufficient, some slight physical correction may be administered; but Imam Shafi'i considers this inadvisable, though permissible, and all authorities are unanimous in deprecating any sort of cruelty, even of the nagging kind, as mentioned in the next clause; (4) if all this fails, a family council is recommended in 4:35 below." Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary (commentary on 4:34), Amana Corporation, Brentwood, MD, 1989. ISBN 0-915957-03-5.
^ Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, says that "If the husband senses that feelings of disobedience and rebelliousness are rising against him in his wife, he should try his best to rectify her attitude by kind words, gentle persuasion, and reasoning with her. If this is not helpful, he should sleep apart from her, trying to awaken her agreeable feminine nature so that serenity may be restored, and she may respond to him in a harmonious fashion. If this approach fails, it is permissible for him to beat her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive parts. [1].[2]
^ Ibn Kathir writes that in case of rebellious behaviour, the husband is asked to urge his wife to mend her ways, then to refuse to share their beds, and as the last resort, husbands are allowed to admonish their wives by beating. Ibn Kathir, “Tafsir of Ibn Kathir”, Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 2000, 50-53
^ USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
^ a b c d Ahmad Shafaat, Tafseer of Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 34, Islamic Perspectives. August 10, 2005
^ Al-Qur'an: a Contemporary Translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1993
^ Raghib, Al-Mufridat fi Gharib Al-Qur'an
^ Shaikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, says that "It is permissible for him to beat her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive parts. In no case should he resort to using a stick or any other instrument that might cause pain and injury."[3]
^ Ibn Kathir Ad-Damishqee records in his Tafsir Al-Qur'an Al-Azim that "Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe."
^ Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Ibn Kathir
^ "The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary", Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Amana Corporation, Brentwood, MD, 1989. ISBN 0-915957-03-5, passage was quoted from commentary on 4:34
^ Kathir, Ibn, “Tafsir of Ibn Kathir”, Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 2000, 50-53
^ M.A.S Abdel Haleem Understanding the Qur'an 46-54
^ "Towards Understanding the Qur'an" Translation by Zafar I. Ansari from "Tafheem Al-Qur'an" by Syed Abul-A'ala Mawdudi, Islamic Foundation, Leicester, England. Passage was quoted from commentary on 4:34.
^ Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Qur'an (his translation of the Qur'an), citing Tabari who "quot[es] the views of scholars of the earliest times."
^ Is wife beating allowed in Islam?
^ The concept of a beating with a toothbrush comes from Muhammad's statement to a disobedient maid-servant that "If it were not for the fear of retaliation on the Day of Resurrection, I would have beaten you with this miswak (tooth-cleaning twig)" [as reported by Ibn Majah, by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih, and by Ibn Sa`d in his Tabaqat]. Cited by Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research at [4][5]
^ Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Qur'an (his translation of the Qur'an), citing Razi.
^ One such authority is the earliest hafiz, Ibn Abbas.[6]
^ Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi comments that "Whenever the Prophet (peace be on him) permitted a man to administer corporal punishment to his wife, he did so with reluctance, and continued to express his distaste for it. And even in cases where it is necessary, the Prophet (peace be on him) directed men not to hit across the face, nor to beat severely nor to use anything that might leave marks on the body." "Towards Understanding the Qur'an" Translation by Zafar I. Ansari from "Tafheem Al-Qur'an" (specifically, commentary on 4:34) by Syed Abul-A'ala Mawdudi, Islamic Foundation, Leicester, England.
^ The medieval jurist ash-Shafi'i, founder of one of the main schools of fiqh, commented on this verse that "hitting is permitted, but not hitting is preferable."
^ "[S]ome of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem." Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Qur'an (his translation of the Qur'an).
^ "On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike a thing and God brings about through it a great deal of good." [Quran 4:19]
^ http://www.religionnewsblog.com/9287/watch-the-film-theo-van-gogh-was-murdered-for
[edit]External links

Exegesis by Ahmad Shafaat
Comprehensive study of evidence FOR and AGAINST wife beating in Islam
QuranicPath | The Myth that Women have to "Obey" their Husbands (Analysis of 4:34)
QuranicPath | Collection of 4:34 Translations which do not use "beat/scourge/hit" (violence)

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Mzabalazo

Solm
Check this: The point I want you to make peace with is that, you guys do have different interpretation and what I find funny is that you do not address each other on this matter as if it only us the INFIDEL who do not read this the way you Moslem read it, you do not,I repeat you do not interpret this scripture in the same, can you tell us why, as you are all versed in Arabic. ( I know what you are going to do, you are going to focus on the site that provided this information rather than talk about why Moslems who are versed in Arabic interpret this scripture differently)



TheReligionofPeace.com
Guide to Understanding Islam
 
 


Additional Notes:
 
Some contemporary Muslim apologists often squirm over this relatively straightforward verse from the Qur'an (4:34) - which actually give men the right to beat their wives if they even have a "fear" of disloyalty or disobedience.  Their masterful aerobics of denial inspired us to write a separate article:
 
Wife Beating- Good Enough for Muhammad, Good Enough for You
 
Others are not nearly as squeamish.  Sheikh Yousef al-Qaradhawi, one of the most respected Muslim clerics in the world, once made the famous (and somewhat ridiculous statement) that "It is forbidden to beat the woman, unless it is necessary."  He also went on to say that "one may beat only to safeguard Islamic behavior," leaving no doubt that wife-beating is a matter of religious sanction.  (source)
 
Dr. Muzammil Saddiqi, the former president of ISNA (the Islamic Society of North America), a mainstream Muslim organization, says it is important that a wife "recognizes the authority of her husband in the house" and that he may use physical force if he is "sure it would improve the situation."  (source)
 
Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Muhammad Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, the head of Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam's most prestigious institution says that "light beatings" and "punching" are part of a program to "reform the wife" (source). 
 
Dr. Jamal Badawi endorses corporal punishment as "another measure that may save the marriage" (source).   He isn't clear on how striking a woman will make her more inclined toward staying with her assailant, unless the implication is fear of a more serious beating if she leaves.
 
During Ramadan of 2010, another cleric named Sa'd Arafat actually said the woman is "honored" by the beating (source).  No one else seemed terribly surprised by this.
 
An undercover report from progressive Sweden in 2012 found that 60% of mosques there actually advised beaten women not to report the abuse to the police.  These women were also told that they must submit to non-consensual 'sex' with their husbands.  (source)
 
According to Islamic law, a husband may strike his wife for any one of the following four reasons:
- She does not attempt to make herself beautiful for him (ie. "let's herself go")
- She refuses to meet his sexual demands
- She leaves the house without his permission or for a "legitimate reason"
- She neglects her religious duties
Any of these are also sufficient grounds for divorce.
 
Respected Quran scholars from the past interpreted verse 4:34 with impressive candor.  Tabari said that it means to "admonish them, but if they refused to repent, then tie them up in their homes and beat them until they obey Allah’s commands toward you."  Qurtubi told wife-beaters to try to avoid breaking bones, but added that "it is not a crime if it leads to death." (source)
 
Muslim apologists sometimes say that Muhammad ordered that women not be harmed, but they are actually basing this on what he said before or during battle, such as in Bukhari (59:447), when Muhammad issued a command for all the men of Quraiza be killed and the women and children taken as slaves.  (Having your husband murdered and being forced into sexual slavery apparently doesn't qualify as "harm" under the Islamic model).
 
But, in fact, there are a number of cases in which Muhammad did have women killed in the most brutal fashion.  One was Asma bint Marwan, a mother or five, who wrote a poem criticizing the Medinans for accepting Muhammad after he had ordered the murder of an elderly man.  In this case, the prophet's assassins literally pulled a sleeping infant from her breast and stabbed her to death.
 
After taking Mecca in 630, Muhammad also ordered the murder of a slave girl who had merely made up songs mocking him.  The Hadith are rife as well with accounts of women planted in the ground on Muhammad's command and pelted to death with stones for sexual immorality - yet the prophet of Islam actually encouraged his own men to rape women captured in battle (Abu Dawood 2150, Muslim 3433) and did not punish them for killing non-Muslim women (as Khalid ibn Walid did on several occasions - see Ibn Ishaq 838 and 856).
 
In summary, according to the Qur'an, Hadith and Islamic law, a woman may indeed have physical harm done to her if the circumstances warrant, with one such allowance being in the case of disobedience.  This certainly does not mean that all Muslim men beat their wives, only that Islam permits them to do so.
 
 
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© 2006-2012 TheReligionofPeace.com. All rights reserved.
 
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Mzabalazo

Solm

Who came with the toothbrush beating, Infidels or Imam?:

All agree that the Koran instructs men to beat their wives in Qur'an 4:34
But you must beat her with a "miswak" (a small natural toothbrush)
Islam is split on the subject, those in Muslim controlled countries are more likely to take the Koran at face value, the way it reads, while those living in the West world tend to say it is a symbolic stroke with a toothbrush. What we are pointing out here, is that the Koran, instructs men to beat their wives. Regardless of how you interpret this verse in "Allah's holy book", we must say that such a verse is shocking and unprecedented in the Bible.



Islam: Truth or Myth? start page

 

 

Wife beating in Islam today:

A Pakistan Muslim Imam wrote a book called, "Tufat-ul-Nisa" ("Gift to Women") teaches that a husband should physically beat his wife just as the Koran says.
In Spain, an Islamic leader named, Muhammad Kamal Mustafa, who functions as an Imam for a mosque and is viewed as a scholar, wrote a book called, "Women in Islam", which openly instructs how a man should beat his wife. The BBC reports that Muhammad Kamal Mustafa "recommends verbal correction followed by a period of sexual abstinence as the best punishment for a wife, but does not rule out a beating as long as it is kept within strict guidelines... to avoid serious damage, a husband should never hit his wife in a state of extreme or blind anger. He should never hit sensitive parts of the body such as the face, head, breasts or stomach. He should only hit the hands or feet using a rod that is thin and light so that it does not leave scars or bruises on the body. The husband's aim, the writer said, should be to cause psychological suffering and not to humiliate or physically abuse his wife ('Spanish Women's Fury at Islamic Advice', BBC, 24, July 2000). Of course the woman of Spain were outraged!
 Six translations of Qur'an 4:34 The "word of Allah" in the Koran is clear and unmistakable! Exactly mirroring all legal systems that administer increasingly harsher penalties for continued wrongdoing, the Koran says the Husband should first verbally admonish her, next ground her to the bedroom like a child, and finally when all else fails, to beat her. We must say that such a verse is shocking.

 Documentation from Muslim scholars who specifically mention the toothbrush (miswak) We are not making up the "toothbrush". The idea originated with Islamic scholars who set the maximum size of the wife beating stick to be no larger than a "miswak" (a small natural toothbrush). Of course, this is only one of many interpretations of Koran 4:34. No Muslim denies that the Koran says a man can beat his wife, they merely argue among themselves as to how large the stick is. Some Islamic countries actually legislate the size of the stick!

 What the Hadith says about wife beating . The hadith are Islamic historical documents, though not considered the word of Allah, are used by all Muslims as a reference for their religion. These Hadith give us glimpses of early Islamic life. They show us how women were thought of, and how they were treated. Later Islamic scholars were able to draw from these stories and develop an Islamic system of life. But, what the scholars, and Muslim leaders did was accurate, based upon the Hadith. If wives were beaten with Muhammad's approval, then that practice should continue today.

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Mzabalazo

Solm

Can you address the issue why you guys have multiple explaination on this issue
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Mzabalazo

Solm

This article is from News Max, please focus on the writer of the controversial book who happens to be a Moslem and see the damage caused by Mohammed by failing to say in this verse "do not beat your wives rather than what you try to explain, saying Mohammed made it impossible for husbands to beat their wives, here is your Moslem brother giving a recipe:

A popular marriage guide that has sold out in one Toronto bookstore is gaining media attention because of the book's controversial focus—how to beat and control your wife.

The book, titled "A Gift for the Muslim Couple," is written by Hazrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi, who, according to the book's foreword, is a "prolific writer on almost every topic of Islamic learning."

In the book's opening, Thanvi writes that "It might be necessary to restrain her [one's wife] with strength or even to threaten her."

Later, Thanvi enumerates the rights of the husband, which include forbidding his wife to leave "his house without his permission," having his wife "fulfill his desires," and insisting that he "not allow herself to be untidy . . . but should beautify herself for him."

Even more controversial are the measures available to a husband if his wife is disobedient. Fortunately, the book notes that a husband should "refrain from beating her excessively," but he is permitted to "beat by hand or stick," "pull [her] by the ears," verbally scold her, or withhold money.

The Toronto Sun wrote about the book after a reader stumbled into it while browsing in a local shop.

The popularity of this book, which is also available on online Islamic bookstores and eBay, is all the more troubling in light of the many cases of Muslim honor killings and assaults that have surfaced recently.

In January, Mohammad Shafia, 59, his second wife, Tooba Yahya, 42, and their son, Hamed, 21, were each convicted in an Ontario court on four counts of first-degree murder for drowning four female family members in what was considered an honor killing for disobedience. The victims included Shafia's three daughters and his first wife.

In another case, presented in a U.K. court in January, 18-year-old Shamima Akhtar was kidnapped, beaten, and imprisoned in her home by her two older sisters and brother after she was caught kissing a white man. Prosecutor Peter Asteris told the court that this case is "about honor-based domestic violence."

An Iraqi family in Phoenix was also taken into custody Feb. 15 for allegedly beating a 19-year-old family member for resisting an arranged marriage with a 38-year-old man and for talking to another man outside school.

The defendants — the victims' mother, father, and sister — stand accused of burning the victim with a spoon on the face and chest, threatening her life, cutting her neck with a knife, and tying her to her bed overnight with a rope and padlock. The victim is epileptic and has a learning disability.

The victim's mother, Yusra Farhan, told police that it was against Iraqi culture to have boyfriends.

With all these seemingly honor-related cases making headlines in the last few months alone, the prominent marriage book seems to be only adding fuel to the fire.

"I wouldn't say it's hate, but it is inciting men to hit women," said Tarek Fatah, a Muslim who argues the bookstore owner should be charged for selling the marriage guide.

"This is new to you, but the Muslim community knows that this is widespread, that a woman can be beaten. Muslim leaders will deny this," Fatah added.

Steven Emerson is executive director of The Investigative Project on Terrorism. Emerson was a correspondent for CNN and a senior editor at U.S. News and World Report. Read more reports from Steve Emerson — Click Here Now.







© 2012 Newsmax. All rights reserved.



Read more on Newsmax.com: Muslim Marriage
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Mzabalazo

Solm

With this heaps of evidence I have exposed your lies. Here I have posted information that shows that most Moslem cleric say it is possible to beat a woman without leaving bruises, recipes given ranges from using a natural toothbrush , rolled news paper, pinching, knotted handkerchief and all that jazz.
Your lies that Mohammed made it impossible to beat a woman(wife) has just flown out of the window.

This is what we call a debate, supporting your argument with evidence .
The Quran permits husbands to beat heir wives. All your doctoring of this scripture is not helping. I have posted interpretations of different Imams and clerics who are well versed in Arabic, which you tried to use an excuse( that my intepretation was flawed because I do not know Arabic and the context of what this verse is about. These Moslems disagree with you, they say yes Allah permit the beating of wives)
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Pardon me for being away for 2 days, I was celebrating Eid yesterday.I was soo busy I didnt have time to actually read or respond to your post.Im here now.Lets rock and roll.
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm

You guys you need to make up your minds about your story on this matter:
==========================
Because Mzabalazo says so?Muslims are not homogeneous, they vary.You find them in all shapes and sizes.There is a Yemini saying, which says put 2 Muslims in one room, you will have 3 different opinions.This is because from the begining Islam was embedded in the grassroot.Its the grassroot that give is interpretation.This grassroot is people from all walks of life.We dont have clergy in Islam, a body that is gives a singular view of issues, like the Pope.The absence of the clergy gives direct access to people the message of God, they dont need to jump hoops to access it.Islam is a movement that grew from the ground up, not top down.This ensured that the power of the message of God remained with the people always until the end of time.The second reason is that Arabic itself is very rich as I told you.One word has many meanings, therefore when a word is used.You need to know far more than that word.You need to know the root of the word and contexted in which its used.This is why there is an array of opinions.However God didnt just drop Qur'an on humanity without someone giving meaning to it.This is the purpose of the Prophets in general, and Mohammad in particular when it comes to Qur'an.He is there to explain many things, to re-inforce of concept of God, tawheed or Oneness of God, to reform our decaying moral, political and social lives, to explain the fate of humanity, the significance of Judgment Day and other things.For us to establish a meaning of a particular verse or word used in the Qur'an, we need to know the sciences of interpreting Qur'an.You cant remove the sciences if you studying Qur'an.The sciences are not absolute, they simply provide a framework or tools.

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
The neutrality of this article is disputed. (May 2012)
The examples and perspective in this article may not include all significant viewpoints. (May 2012)
An editor has expressed a concern that this article lends undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, controversies or matters relative to the article subject as a whole. (May 2012)
This is a sub-article of an-Nisa
The Quran, chapter 4 (An-Nisa), verse 34:
“ Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).— translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
Transliteration: Arrijalu qawwamoonaAAala annisa-i bima faddalaAllahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabimaanfaqoo min amwalihim fassalihatu qanitatunhafithatun lilghaybi bima hafithaAllahu wallatee takhafoonanushoozahunna faAAithoohunna wahjuroohunnafee almadajiAAi wadriboohunna fa-in ataAAnakumfala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kanaAAaliyyan kabeera
”
Part of a series on the
Quran

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v t e
In the Qur'an, verse 34 of Surah an-Nisa (abbreviated as 4:34) concerns the issue of marital relations in Islam. This verse is interpreted by some Muslims as giving women complete control over their own income and property, while obliging men to be responsible for maintaining their female relatives.[1] Some Muslim scholars admit that the word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.[2][3][4][5] Some Muslims, such as Islamic feminist groups, argue that Muslim men use the text as an excuse for domestic violence.[6] However, some have translated "beat" as "separate", as Arabic in its nature is multi-meaning language, and as such no word has a fixed sole meaning.[7]
There have been several fatwas against domestic violence.[8][9][10]
Ibn Abbas, a companion of the Muhammed, wrote the earliest commentary on the Quran, and to this part he himself said this is only a light tap.[11]
Egyptian Cleric Galal Al-Khatib explained, “Maybe a light slap on her shoulder, or maybe a not-so-light pinch, or a kind of gentle shove. He should make her feel that he wants to reform her, and let her know that he is displeased with her. It is like saying: None of the measures that work with sensitive people work with you. A word would be enough for any wife with lofty morals, but with you, words do not help.”[12]
Ibn Kathir commented in his tafsir, “(If the man asks his wife to come to his bed and she declines, the angels will keep cursing her until the morning.) Muslim recorded it with the wording,
(If the wife goes to sleep while ignoring her husband's bed, the angels will keep cursing her until the morning.)
[...](beat them) means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj”[13]
Al-Nawawi explicated in Reliance of the Traveller, “if keeping from her is ineffectual, it is permissible for him to hit her if he believes that hitting her will bring her back to the right path, though if he does not think so, it is not permissible. His hitting her may not be in a way that injures her, and is his last recourse to save the family.”[14]
Contents [hide]
1 Other translation of the Verse 4:34
1.1 Context of the verse
2 Background on the roles of men and women in Islam
3 Ideas detailed in An-Nisa, 34
3.1 Qanitat
3.2 Nushûz
4 Debates and discussion about the text
4.1 Admonishing and separation in bed
4.2 iḍribūhunna
4.3 Other perspectives on idribihûnna
5 In popular culture
6 See also
7 References
8 External links
[edit]Other translation of the Verse 4:34

“ Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.[15] ”
- as translated in Sahih International, at Quran.com
“ "Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great.[16] ”
- Translation by Dr. Ahmad Shafaat
“ Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.[17] ”
- Translation by Muhsin Khan
[edit]Context of the verse
The late Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad Hussein Tabataba'i provides the following exegesis on 4:34 from both Sunni and Shi'ite sources in his Mizan:
Ibn Abi Hatim has narrated through Ash’ath ibn ‘Abdil-Malik from al-Hasan that he said: “A woman came to the Prophet complaining against her husband that he had slapped her. The Messenger of Allah said: “Retribution”. Then Allah revealed the verse, “Men are maintainers of women… (4:34); so the woman returned without retribution [ad-Durr 'l-munthur, as-Suyuti]. [as-Suyuti] has narrated it from the Prophet through other chains too. Some of them say that the Messenger of Allah said: “I wanted one thing (retribution), but Allah decided otherwise"...there were some instances where Allah had amended some prophetic orders by adding to or deleting from it, but it was only in his administrative order, not in matters of the law ordained by him for his people, otherwise it would have been an invalid nullification...the Messenger of Allah used to wonder aloud: "How can you embrace the woman with a hand you had hit her with?". It is narrated also in al-Kafi through his chain from Abu Maryam from Abu Ja’far (Imam Muhammad al-Baqir) that he said: “The Messenger of Allah said: “What! Does one of you hit his wife, and then attempt to embrace her?". Countless such statements are found in the traditions; and one may understand from them the Islamic views on this subject.[18]
[edit]Background on the roles of men and women in Islam

Further information: Namus and Women in Islam
The Qur'an states that men are the guardians of women, and thus responsible for earning livelihood for the family and female relatives. Women, however, are given complete control over their own income and property.[1] Nevertheless, they are responsible for educating the children, as God has given the one preference over the other. Man is also considered to be the head of the family.[19] The Qur'an recommends that wives be obedient and adaptable to their husbands. Wives should also keep the secrets of their husbands and protect their honor and integrity. Islamic scholars consider this important in running a smooth family system.[20]
Iranian feminists have concentrated on one particular verse of the Qur'an ([Quran 4:34]), part of which reads `Men are the protectors of and maintainers of women because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means’. Feminist theologians in Iran argue that as the only distinction made between Muslims in the Qur'an is that between the pious and the impious ([Quran 49:13]), the word taken to mean `protectors and providers’ in the verse above is more appropriately interpreted as initiator in affairs’.[1]
For both men and women, zulm- known in English as actions of 'cruelty' against someone- is explicitly prohibited.[6]
[edit]Ideas detailed in An-Nisa, 34

[edit]Qanitat
The verse commands women to be qanitat. The term has been used in Quran 33:35 to refer to men and women alike, who are obedient to God. Some commentators use the term to mean obedience to the husband, while others assert that it means obedience to God. Some "scholars" agree that the husband does not have absolute control over his wife, and her first loyalty is to God.[21]
[edit]Nushûz
The term "nushûz" (نُشُوز) is translated as "disloyalty and ill-conduct" by Yusuf Ali, "rebellion" by Pickthall and "desertion" by Shakir. Other scholars have drawn on hadiths to interpret the meaning of the word.
Ahmad Shafaat, a 21st century Sunni Islamic scholar says:
“ The literal meaning of the word is "rebellion". But rebellion against whom and in what sense? We should certainly not think of this in terms the rebellion of the ruled against a ruler in a sultanate or dictatorship and conclude that it consists of the wife disobeying some of the husband's commands. This is because the same word nushuz is used in case of a husband in verse 128 of the same surah 4, where it is said: "If a woman fears nushuz on her husband's part..." So nushûz is something that can be feared by the husband on the wife's part or by the wife on her husband's part. It cannot therefore be understood in terms of the ruler-ruled relationship. To correctly understand the meaning of the word, it must be noted that both in the verse under consideration and in verse 128 the reference to nushuz is followed by a reference to the break-up of the marriage (see vv. 35, 130). If this context is kept in mind, then it becomes evident that nushuz means the type of behavior on the part of the husband or the wife which is so disturbing for the other that their living together becomes difficult. ...In short, nushûz is a behavior on the part of one marriage partner which comes out of ill-will and seriously disturbs the other partner.[22] ”
Muhammad Asad notes that Muhammad stipulated in The Farewell Sermon that "beating should be resorted to only if the wife 'has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct'.[23][page needed]
[edit]Debates and discussion about the text

In response to nushûz, admonishment, leaving wives in their beds and idribihunna are permitted. Islamic scholars agree such actions can not be undertaken for any reason other than those mentioned in the Qur'an (see nushûz).[24] Muslim scholars also hold that this response is only permitted only if the husband has fulfilled his obligations, both those required of him by the Quran and those in stipulated in the marriage contract.[25]
[edit]Admonishing and separation in bed
The first response to nushuz is wā'z (‘وَعَظ’), meaning to first admonish or scold the wife of her behaviour.[20] There is strong agreement amongst Muslim scholars that this admonishment must be conducted in a spirit of reconciliation. Should the nushuz continue, the next step is to refuse to share the bed with the wife. Again Muslim scholars emphasize on the spirit of healing while conducting this action.[25]
Interpretations of the Qur'an also reflect the order of the actions prescribed in 4:34:[26][27][28]
As to those women on whose part you see ill conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, God is Ever Most High, Most Great."[29]
[edit]iḍribūhunna
The word iḍribūhunna comes from the root ḍaraba (Arabic: ضرب). The word has been used many times in the Quran to mean: to hit, to travel the earth, to set up, to condemn and to give examples. Thus scholars interpret iḍribūhunna differently. Whereas many interpret it to mean "to strike", others hold that the term means "to separate".[25] Such an action is to be administered only if neither the husband nor the wife are willing to divorce.[30] In the context of this verse, iḍribūhunna has also been interpreted to mean "go to bed with them",[31] the Arabic root word "daraba" being taken from the prosaic example "the stud-camel covered the she-camel".[32]
Muslim scholars who permit hitting, emphasize that it must not be harsh,[30][33][34] but rather light.[35][36][37][38] Muslim men are never to hit their spouse's face, nor to hit them in such a way as would leave marks on their body. Scholars suggest that the response administered should be in proportion to the fault committed.[39] Traditionally the idea of beating was "with a toothbrush"[40][41][42] or "with a folded handkerchief."[43]
Many jurists interpret iḍribūhunna as "more or less symbolic."[23][44] Others, however, argue that a mere symbolic administration would be pointless and rather should be an "energetic demonstration" of the love of the husband. But it is agreed that the demonstration should not seriously hurt the wife.[30]
The 2007 translation The Sublime Quran by Laleh Bakhtiar translates iḍribūhunna not as 'beat them' but as 'go away from them'. The introduction to her translation discusses the linguistic and shari‘ah reasons in Arabic for understanding this verb in context. The Prophet never beat his wives, and his example from the Sunnah informs the interpretation of this verse. This interpretation is supported by the fact that some other verses, such as 4:101 which contains word darabtum (derivation from daraba), demonstrate also the interpretation of Arabic word daraba to have meaning 'going' or 'moving'.
The book Woman in the Shade of Islam by Saudi scholar Abdul Rahman al-Sheha stated that a man may "beat" his wife only if it occurs without "hurting, breaking a bone, leaving blue or black marks on the body and avoiding hitting the face, at any cost." American Muslim preacher Yusuf Estes has stated that men can give "a crack" used by things such as a yardstick or a rolled up newspaper.[6]
A widely used 1930 English translation of the Koran by British Muslim scholar Marmaduke Pickthall determined the verse to mean that, as a last resort, men can "scourge" their wives. He did not view a form physical contact as the correct understanding of the text.[6]
[edit]Other perspectives on idribihûnna
Some jurists argue that even when hitting is acceptable under the Qur'an, it is still discountenanced.[45][46][47] Furthermore, the Qur'an commands husbands to be kind to their wives.[48]
Furthermore, some jurists argue, the woman is not required to accept her husband's punishment, and the wife can divorce anytime. The wife can also take the husband to court, should he abuse her. If the case is decided in her favor, she has the right to retaliate against her husband.[30]
In his book No god but God, University of Southern California scholar Reza Aslan, stated that false interpretations of the text have occurred because Koranic commentary "has been the exclusive domain of Muslim men."[6]
The Islamic prophet Mohammed himself, according to Islamic tradition, never once struck a woman in argument. This fact is sometimes cited in debates about the text.[6]
Muslim feminist writer Asra Q. Nomani has argued:
Indeed, Muslim scholars and leaders have long been doing what I call "the 4:34 dance" -- they reject outright violence against women but accept a level of aggression that fits contemporary definitions of domestic violence.[6]
[edit]In popular culture

The controversial 11-minute film Submission, directed by Theo van Gogh, depicts a beaten Muslim woman with her naked body painted with this verse on her back.[49]
[edit]See also

Islam and domestic violence
Criticism of the Qur'an
Women and Islam
Female figures in the Qur'an
[edit]References

^ a b c Iman Hashim, Reconciling Islam and feminism, Gender & Development, 1999, vol. 7, issue 1, p 7, ISSN 13552074
^ http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/family/marital-relationships/450026-wife-beating-in-islam.html
^ http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/family/marital-relationships/174868.html
^ http://islamqa.info/en/ref/482/wife%20beating
^ http://www.islamicfinder.org/articles/article.php?id=307
^ a b c d e f g Nomani, Asra Q. (October 22, 2006). "Clothes Aren't the Issue". Washington Post.
^ cf. Ahmed Ali's translation
^ http://allahcentric.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/muslim-scholars-on-spousal-abuse-under-islamic-law-it-is-absolutely-unlawful-to-abuse-a-wife-injure-her-or-insult-her-dignity
^ http://www.canadiancouncilofimams.com/pages/EFkFEEAkEuvurqQPyi.shtml
^ http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/fatwa-honour-killings-misogyny-domestic-violence.pdf
^ http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=34&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
^ Excerpts from a sermon by Egyptian cleric Galal Al-Khatib, which aired on Al-Rahma TV on December 24, 2008. [memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP222909 "Egyptian Cleric Galal Al-Khatib Explains Wife-Beating in Islam"]. MEMRI TV. Retrieved 31 July 2012.
^ "Dealing with the Wife's Ill-Conduct". Tafsir Ibn Kathir. Quran Tafsir. Retrieved 31 July 2012.
^ Ahmad, Misri (1994). “Reliance of the Traveler”. Beltsville, MD: Amana.
^ http://quran.com/4/34
^ http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran-4-34.htm
^ "Read Quran (An-Nisa)". The Qur'an. Search The Truth. Retrieved 31 July 2012.
^ Tafsir al-Mizan, by al-Allamah as-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba-i, translated by Sayyid Saeed Akhtar Rizvi. V. 8, p.217,220
^ Amin Ahsan Islahi, Tadabbur-i-Qur'an, 2nd ed., vol. 2, (Lahore: Faran Foundation, 1986), p. 278
^ a b Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, Mizan, Chapter:The Social Law of Islam
^ Ali, Kecia (2006). "Marriage". In Leaman, Oliver. The Qur'an: an encyclopedia. Great Britain: Routeledge. pp. 389–392 (look at 392)
^ Tafseer of Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 34
^ a b Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Qur'an (his translation of the Qur'an).
^ Saleem Shahzad, Can a Husband force his Wife to wear the Hijab?, Renaissance - Monthly Islamic Journal, 11(11), November 2001.
^ a b c Ammar, Nawal H. (May 2007). "Wife Battery in Islam: A Comprehensive Understanding of Interpretations". Violence Against Women 13 (5): 519–523. doi:10.1177/1077801207300658. PMID 17478676.
^ Abdullah Yusuf Ali in his Quranic commentary states that: "In case of family jars four steps are mentioned, to be taken in that order. (1) Perhaps verbal advice or admonition may be sufficient; (2) if not, sex relations may be suspended; (3) if this is not sufficient, some slight physical correction may be administered; but Imam Shafi'i considers this inadvisable, though permissible, and all authorities are unanimous in deprecating any sort of cruelty, even of the nagging kind, as mentioned in the next clause; (4) if all this fails, a family council is recommended in 4:35 below." Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary (commentary on 4:34), Amana Corporation, Brentwood, MD, 1989. ISBN 0-915957-03-5.
^ Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, says that "If the husband senses that feelings of disobedience and rebelliousness are rising against him in his wife, he should try his best to rectify her attitude by kind words, gentle persuasion, and reasoning with her. If this is not helpful, he should sleep apart from her, trying to awaken her agreeable feminine nature so that serenity may be restored, and she may respond to him in a harmonious fashion. If this approach fails, it is permissible for him to beat her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive parts. [1].[2]
^ Ibn Kathir writes that in case of rebellious behaviour, the husband is asked to urge his wife to mend her ways, then to refuse to share their beds, and as the last resort, husbands are allowed to admonish their wives by beating. Ibn Kathir, “Tafsir of Ibn Kathir”, Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 2000, 50-53
^ USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
^ a b c d Ahmad Shafaat, Tafseer of Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 34, Islamic Perspectives. August 10, 2005
^ Al-Qur'an: a Contemporary Translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1993
^ Raghib, Al-Mufridat fi Gharib Al-Qur'an
^ Shaikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, says that "It is permissible for him to beat her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive parts. In no case should he resort to using a stick or any other instrument that might cause pain and injury."[3]
^ Ibn Kathir Ad-Damishqee records in his Tafsir Al-Qur'an Al-Azim that "Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe."
^ Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Ibn Kathir
^ "The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary", Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Amana Corporation, Brentwood, MD, 1989. ISBN 0-915957-03-5, passage was quoted from commentary on 4:34
^ Kathir, Ibn, “Tafsir of Ibn Kathir”, Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 2000, 50-53
^ M.A.S Abdel Haleem Understanding the Qur'an 46-54
^ "Towards Understanding the Qur'an" Translation by Zafar I. Ansari from "Tafheem Al-Qur'an" by Syed Abul-A'ala Mawdudi, Islamic Foundation, Leicester, England. Passage was quoted from commentary on 4:34.
^ Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Qur'an (his translation of the Qur'an), citing Tabari who "quot[es] the views of scholars of the earliest times."
^ Is wife beating allowed in Islam?
^ The concept of a beating with a toothbrush comes from Muhammad's statement to a disobedient maid-servant that "If it were not for the fear of retaliation on the Day of Resurrection, I would have beaten you with this miswak (tooth-cleaning twig)" [as reported by Ibn Majah, by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih, and by Ibn Sa`d in his Tabaqat]. Cited by Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research at [4][5]
^ Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Qur'an (his translation of the Qur'an), citing Razi.
^ One such authority is the earliest hafiz, Ibn Abbas.[6]
^ Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi comments that "Whenever the Prophet (peace be on him) permitted a man to administer corporal punishment to his wife, he did so with reluctance, and continued to express his distaste for it. And even in cases where it is necessary, the Prophet (peace be on him) directed men not to hit across the face, nor to beat severely nor to use anything that might leave marks on the body." "Towards Understanding the Qur'an" Translation by Zafar I. Ansari from "Tafheem Al-Qur'an" (specifically, commentary on 4:34) by Syed Abul-A'ala Mawdudi, Islamic Foundation, Leicester, England.
^ The medieval jurist ash-Shafi'i, founder of one of the main schools of fiqh, commented on this verse that "hitting is permitted, but not hitting is preferable."
^ "[S]ome of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem." Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Qur'an (his translation of the Qur'an).
^ "On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike a thing and God brings about through it a great deal of good." [Quran 4:19]
^ http://www.religionnewsblog.com/9287/watch-the-film-theo-van-gogh-was-murdered-for
[edit]External links

Exegesis by Ahmad Shafaat
Comprehensive study of evidence FOR and AGAINST wife beating in Islam
QuranicPath | The Myth that Women have to "Obey" their Husbands (Analysis of 4:34)
QuranicPath | Collection of 4:34 Translations which do not use "beat/scourge/hit" (violence)
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You cut and paste soo much but you not saying anything here.I know all the things you posted here.I have studied the stuff, I know all the arguments on this issue.You reharshing them to me is not adding anything to the value of this debate.Make an argument, talk to me for goodness sake.I dont want to know what other people's opinions are on this issue, I want to know what YOU thinking.I want to hear YOUR arguments informing your position.

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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Solm
Check this: The point I want you to make peace with is that, you guys do have different interpretation and what I find funny is that you do not address each other on this matter as if it only us the INFIDEL who do not read this the way you Moslem read it, you do not,I repeat you do not interpret this scripture in the same, can you tell us why, as you are all versed in Arabic. ( I know what you are going to do, you are going to focus on the site that provided this information rather than talk about why Moslems who are versed in Arabic interpret this scripture differently)
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LOL.Who said we need to have one opinion on the meaning of this word iḍribūhunna? Because it comes down to that issue.This whole feminist and Western argument is premised on this word, not the verse, the word.In your eyes the whole of Islam stands or falls by this word.This is the game being played here.This game sets up YOUR agenda, not Islam's.The poor scholars are being dragged into this game unaware what is actually taking place here.They unaware that they are falling into this trap.In so doing, they take part in throwing away there rest of the verse, the rest of the PURPOSE of the verse.I dont have time for that game.I stand by the WHOLE verse, I stand by the PURPOSE of the verse.

According to Islamic law, a husband may strike his wife for any one of the following four reasons:
- She does not attempt to make herself beautiful for him (ie. "let's herself go")
- She refuses to meet his sexual demands
- She leaves the house without his permission or for a "legitimate reason"
- She neglects her religious duties
Any of these are also sufficient grounds for divorce.
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LOL.Which Islamic Law?This is junk, a whole lot of rubbish.Its absolute rubbish.

But, in fact, there are a number of cases in which Muhammad did have women killed in the most brutal fashion. One was Asma bint Marwan, a mother or five, who wrote a poem criticizing the Medinans for accepting Muhammad after he had ordered the murder of an elderly man. In this case, the prophet's assassins literally pulled a sleeping infant from her breast and stabbed her to death.
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All this is not true.

After taking Mecca in 630, Muhammad also ordered the murder of a slave girl who had merely made up songs mocking him. The Hadith are rife as well with accounts of women planted in the ground on Muhammad's command and pelted to death with stones for sexual immorality - yet the prophet of Islam actually encouraged his own men to rape women captured in battle (Abu Dawood 2150, Muslim 3433) and did not punish them for killing non-Muslim women (as Khalid ibn Walid did on several occasions - see Ibn Ishaq 838 and 856).
==============================
Not true.

In summary, according to the Qur'an, Hadith and Islamic law, a woman may indeed have physical harm done to her if the circumstances warrant, with one such allowance being in the case of disobedience. This certainly does not mean that all Muslim men beat their wives, only that Islam permits them to do so.
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Under no circumstances can a woman be harmed under Islamic Law.This is a feminist hogwash.I dont beat my wife, Im not less of s Muslim by doing that.The Prophet never beat his also, it doesnt make him less of a Muslim.The Islamic Law that allows any of the above as this article states, doesnt exist, its all made up to rally support of the people to have an adverse opnion of Islam.In today's terminology, its called propaganda.The showdown between the West and Muslims is coming, its around the corner.They rallying support for that showdown and desensitising people for that showdown.This is the point of all of this.
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Solm

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Solm

Who came with the toothbrush beating, Infidels or Imam?:

All agree that the Koran instructs men to beat their wives in Qur'an 4:34
But you must beat her with a "miswak" (a small natural toothbrush)
Islam is split on the subject, those in Muslim controlled countries are more likely to take the Koran at face value, the way it reads, while those living in the West world tend to say it is a symbolic stroke with a toothbrush. What we are pointing out here, is that the Koran, instructs men to beat their wives. Regardless of how you interpret this verse in "Allah's holy book", we must say that such a verse is shocking and unprecedented in the Bible.
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Those people in Muslim countries who beat their woman do so for cultural reasons than this verse.Even Muslim feminists only theorise the issue.The truth here is that none of the beatings are as a result of the verse.The overwhelming majority of Muslims in Muslim countries dont even know the verse exists.I dont know why Islam is on trial here.Forget Muslim countries, you have none Muslim countries with very high rate of woman abuse, who do so for cultural reasons too, yet they dont count.None of that matters.The point people must remember always is that woman abuse=Islamic Law.Thats it.It doesnt matter whether its true or not, this must be the outcome here.The irony of this whole thing is that the West exploits woman is any manner possible for money, from adverts to prostitution.All this is fine and its legal.On the other hand you have Islam which forbids this exploitation of woman and its the one on trial here.How are they bringing Islam to trial, they bring the verse 4:34, not even the verse, the word iḍribūhunna.Who are they fooling exactly these agents of the devil?
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Solm

@Mzabalazo

Wife beating in Islam today:

A Pakistan Muslim Imam wrote a book called, "Tufat-ul-Nisa" ("Gift to Women") teaches that a husband should physically beat his wife just as the Koran says.
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Since when is Pakistan and Islam interchangeable?

In Spain, an Islamic leader named, Muhammad Kamal Mustafa, who functions as an Imam for a mosque and is viewed as a scholar, wrote a book called, "Women in Islam", which openly instructs how a man should beat his wife. The BBC reports that Muhammad Kamal Mustafa "recommends verbal correction followed by a period of sexual abstinence as the best punishment for a wife, but does not rule out a beating as long as it is kept within strict guidelines... to avoid serious damage, a husband should never hit his wife in a state of extreme or blind anger. He should never hit sensitive parts of the body such as the face, head, breasts or stomach. He should only hit the hands or feet using a rod that is thin and light so that it does not leave scars or bruises on the body. The husband's aim, the writer said, should be to cause psychological suffering and not to humiliate or physically abuse his wife ('Spanish Women's Fury at Islamic Advice', BBC, 24, July 2000). Of course the woman of Spain were outraged!
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Is there no cases of woman abuse in Spain unrelated to Muslims?

Six translations of Qur'an 4:34 The "word of Allah" in the Koran is clear and unmistakable! Exactly mirroring all legal systems that administer increasingly harsher penalties for continued wrongdoing, the Koran says the Husband should first verbally admonish her, next ground her to the bedroom like a child, and finally when all else fails, to beat her. We must say that such a verse is shocking.
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I had no idea the verse talks about grounding a wife like a child.We learn something new everyday.I must also say that its shocking.

Documentation from Muslim scholars who specifically mention the toothbrush (miswak) We are not making up the "toothbrush". The idea originated with Islamic scholars who set the maximum size of the wife beating stick to be no larger than a "miswak" (a small natural toothbrush). Of course, this is only one of many interpretations of Koran 4:34. No Muslim denies that the Koran says a man can beat his wife, they merely argue among themselves as to how large the stick is. Some Islamic countries actually legislate the size of the stick!
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The world today has man beating their woman to a pulp with their fists, which jamboks, they k#ill their wives.We mustnt worry about all that.The big issue here is a miswak.There is no amount of abuse as great as beating your wife with a miswak, it is such a terrrible thing!It makes headlines.

What the Hadith says about wife beating . The hadith are Islamic historical documents, though not considered the word of Allah, are used by all Muslims as a reference for their religion. These Hadith give us glimpses of early Islamic life. They show us how women were thought of, and how they were treated. Later Islamic scholars were able to draw from these stories and develop an Islamic system of life. But, what the scholars, and Muslim leaders did was accurate, based upon the Hadith. If wives were beaten with Muhammad's approval, then that practice should continue today.
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The Prophet never approved the beating or any woman in any manner.He never exploited woman for money, he never raped woman like Western soldiers did in Iraq, he never preached systematic of rape of woman as its done in Congo.Yet he is such a bad person.He has an atrocious record of treating woman.No one even comes close to him.


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Mzabalazo

Solm

That Pakistani Imam is a Moslem, the people who use the toothbrush bashing are Moslems and hey do not beat women because of their culture , but they do that because they intepret what your Prophet said. you said my intepretation was flawed because I did not know the Arabic vocabulary. These guys are scholars, Imams and others have Phd and you try. To hide by the thumb. Solm these guys have never claim that they beat women because their culture demand, they say that Mohammed commanded. You are very hopeless in debate, you even change the evidence posted. Continue with making excuses for your faith I do not care but I have posted evidence, which you may deny it but it will not disappear , everyone can see how you defend the undefendable you deny , you lie , and make excuses in the name of debate.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
Who said we must not worry when the world is beating women? Like I said you fly all over, yes we worry about hat, Nat is why we question a scriptures that exhonorate woman bashing, which you so much defend with all lies. Solm you said Mohammed made it impossible for women to be beaten , I provided the evidence of recipe created by Moslem cleric, who justify beating of women, you failed to address that instead you claim we keep quite when the women a bashed by sticks. That is a defense tactic you are using to avoid conceding that your Prophet failed to protect women by saying men can beat their women. Scream as much as you can the evidence Solm is in front of everyone to see. You lied when you said my intepretation of this scripture was wrong, many clerics are using this scripture to bash their wives, some are using that scripture to make them inferior by giving their wives slight beating, they are preaching that message in the Mosque, not in their cultural gathering, right in the house of worship. Some wrote books on that subject. Solm you cannot deny he evidence. Scream all you like the evidence will not change.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
What you are doing is to compare who did what as if I am saying that Congo rapist are ok, USA rapist, South African rapist and women basher are ok. this is not what we are talking about and those atrocities committed to women all over the world will not be exhonorated by the verses in Quran hat permits men to beat heir women nor will this scripture be made less important by this acts. You are really unable to hold a debate, you sound so reasonable when you think people know less when you are overwhelmed by the evidence you begin to show your true colours.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
"is there no cases of women abuses unrelated to women"
That is a duck and dive at its best, there are lot you know that, the evidence posted is not saying only Moslems are beating or abusing women, the evidence here is not saying every Moslem beat women, the evidence points to my argument that you Moslems do not intepret this verse the same way, some letarally understand it as I do, that it permit men to beat women. That you ignore. The next issue that this evidence proves is that it is not true what you said , that this scripture makes it impossible for Moslem men to beat women, that was a pure lie, if you knew that I would go to this extend you wouldn't have given such a lame answer. How can it be impossible to beat a women when some Imams with a following teach that a woman should be beaten , using the same verses you claim they prevent women to be beaten. Some Moslems are writing books that advice how a man can beat a woman, hese are not Americans INFIDELS but are people who have SUBMITTED like you, so do not play mables with me, if you do not want to address your fellow men who preach violence based on this scripture then do not blame the world on this matter. You can criticize women abuse. If you are against women abuse you can come straight and criticize it, but do not defend he actions of your fellow Imams who preach that women should beaten, you should bind all of hem together and as well as admit that this scripture did not make hings better for women ,as some Moslem cleric uses these verses in order to perpetuate women abuse, maybe they do not understand the dynamics as those who were allowed sleep with their women slaves by Mohammed, you need to deal with your buddies rather than underplaying their actions by telling us what is happening in Congo, failing to name Yemen , Somali,Chad,Mali,Sudan and many more Islamic states where people die like flies, pretending that bad hings happens in Africa and the West , your silence is queite deafening about the atrocities committed by Moslems in Libya Syria, Bahrain and Saudi, do not act as if Moslem have made this planet a better place, they are as bad as everyone else on this planet, stop alluding yourself.
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Mzabalazo

Solm
Wanted to quote what you said " so there are no cases of women abuse unrelated to Moslem in Spain"
above and wrote instead so there are no cases of women abuses unrelated to woman".
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Mzabalazo

Solm
Truth hurts but it will set you free .
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DinuZulu

I sued to care about people from different religions then mine and actually have a Koran at a point until i met the Moslems in the Western Cape. This place is filled with Gangsters "depending where you live" and they are all Muslims and even at work during the most spiritual time of fasting the slamse here treat others with such disrespect and rudeness especially the women.

As a Nguni man and one of South Africa's native people I don’t walk around demanding respect but these people are taking it over board. The native people of South Africa are "Qhoi Qhoin, Qhoi San, Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, Shangaane, Phuti, Hlubi, Swati, Ngwane, Thembu, Zizi, Bhele, Mpondo, Bhaca, Mpondomise, Mfengu to menstion the least.

This is not sadiarabia, these people came to our land with Engelish Slave ships by the name of Jintu and today are acting like we owe them something. I say F*ck off back to where you basterds come from...

Kind Regards

X Muslim respecter but that was changed by the rude Muslims i work with at work!

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