Religious tolerance its a foreign word to the Muslim community they think their religion is better than others.. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mellow
The Empangeni branch of KFC provided employees with two chicken pieces a day, but Cele said he did not enjoy chicken and had the right to eat his own food at work
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And it makes fatty KFC halaal how exactly?! He is right he cant be forced to eat that crap rather pap and chakalaka struus it sounds so halaal it fits in they are crazy thank goodness your job is safe Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Shredder
@LostGuy - Religious tolerance its a foreign word to the Muslim community they think their religion is better than others..
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Sometimes I do think like that too. Shuuu!! And they are mushrooming like nobody's business in the townships. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Kaylae
good that he has been reinstated continue boss eating your non-halaal Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Dzel
Well done CCMA for clarifying the obvious.
In their reply to me KFC said his dismissal was according to Labour Relations Act but of course this is rubbish and the CCMA has just validated this.
We need to stand up to abuse, those of us not directly affected need to start ad-hoc lobby groups and pressure companies that do not respect our labour laws to conform. KFC makes the bulk of its profits from black customers, it is about time they feel our collective power.
Hence they employ people like that poor guy to work for them, since you work under their roof then you must eat halaal jeeerrrr crap. You have a right to eat whateva u feel like boss papa ka mogodu Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Keafixa
this means KFC employees earn R2600 per month........this is serious underpayment. Report Abuse
Muslims need to start learning to respect other religions other than them thinking that they are holier than thou.
Why must someone eat your food when you do not eat theirs? Why must you think you are clean when others are not clean in your eyes?
That is just taking the love of God out of context and yet they are trigger happy 24/7 Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Religion, aag man! I wonder what is really important, to keep Ramadan or not to be a pedophile, as we speak in many Arab countries old people are marrying under age girls, because the old prophet Mohammad married a 9 year old girl. I wonder did Allah not see that what this old man was doing was unspeakable. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Papage
Do we have halaal Maize and Halaal beans? I thought halaal only implies to the way the animals are slaughtered, does it apply to the way maise and beans are cultivated? interesting lessons everyday. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
iPhone4
Tjo a salary bakithi they must pay him the interest Report Abuse
@Chichi7 - Muslims need to start learning to respect other religions other than them thinking that they are holier than thou.
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That is why I chucked something(food) into the rubbish bin that one muslim gave to me. He doesn't eat my food but he wants me to eat his food. :-D Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Papage
Do we have halaal Maize and Halaal beans? I thought halaal only implies to the way the animals are slaughtered, does it apply to the way maise and beans are cultivated? interesting lessons everyday.
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Yes every food should be hallalled, except for fish, or anything from the sea is automatically hallaled. The name of Allah should be called before you slaughter an animal. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
I dont know whats more tragic here between these Indians who have diluted Islam with their culture or self-appointed armchair critics of Islam like Mzabalazo.We have anaother blog on the same issue where I explained that there is nothing haraam with pap and beans.Just because its not eating in the Indian culture it doesnt make it not halaal.Of course these ignorant acts by Indian Muslims provide armchair critics with an opportunity to bash Islam.The ignorance on both sides is beyond description. Report Abuse
Nope. The most tragic of all this is the people who allow their faith to be trampled on like this but go all fatwa if someone draws a picture. That isn't only tragic but pathetic too. Report Abuse
They can mushroom any way they can but they are not going to force their religion into our throats. Ask the people in Dlamini,Soweto, regarding the mosque, no more screaming at 17.00 and 05.00 though they were good alarms in the morning. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Chichi7
Muslims need to start learning to respect other religions other than them thinking that they are holier than thou.
Why must someone eat your food when you do not eat theirs? Why must you think you are clean when others are not clean in your eyes?
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How can you expect tolarence from Islam when the Koran teaches the opposite ? Check this out:
Koran IX/123 o ye who believe! Fight those of disbelievers who are near you and let them find harshness in you and know Allah is with those keep their duty unto him
IX/29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the jiziya(poll tax) with the hand of humility
Sura 8:40 Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of God
Sura 8:9 Make war upon such of those whom the Scrpture been given as believe not in God, or in the last days...
Sura 25:52 Give not way to the infidels, but by means of this Koran fight against them with a might strife.
Sura 48(1) Medina- 29 verses: it shall be no crime on the part of the blind, the lame and the sick, if they go not to the fight....
To understand whats happening with Muslims today you need to know the situation at the time of Jesus.He was fighting the same mentality of reducing religion to formalistic practice, Muslims have lost, just like Jews then, the meaning of things.You have cartels or mafias, like the Pharisees, made out of 'scholars' or rabbis who have established a power-base in their communities as the only authority in matters religious.Ordinary Muslims rely on these mafias to give fatwas or religious decrees that are often reasoned very poorly.These mafias have convinced ordinary Muslims that they cant do anything without their ok.This is the problem here.These mafias have appointed themselves as community leaders which is also problematic as Islam has no glergy.This is the general problem.With regard to this halaal issue.Its a hot potatoe even among Muslims.This industry has been turned into a multi-million rand business.Its no longer about looking after the well being of Muslims.It all about how much money can be made.Its the rot that has unfortunately left people who dont know whats happening thoroughly confused.So nobody is keeping quite.There is a surge of a different kind of thinking that is challenging this 'orthodox' interpretation and application of Islam.There is a lot happening, its just that you not aware of it. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Solm
I dont know whats more tragic here between these Indians who have diluted Islam with their culture or self-appointed armchair critics of Islam like Mzabalazo.We have anaother blog on the same issue where I explained that there is nothing haraam with pap and beans.Just because its not eating in the Indian culture it doesnt make it not halaal.Of course these ignorant acts by Indian Muslims provide armchair critics with an opportunity to bash Islam.The ignorance on both sides is beyond description.
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Solm
I am sorry to hurt your feelings no punt intended, but Islam as religion has brought more harm than good, especially to our people,MIT made us slaves and as we speak it still encourages slavery. It encourage race superiority , I cannot not be a Moslem without adopting an Arabic name, what is wrong with my name, Allah cannot accept it, why should he only accept me when I have an Arabic name amongst other things?
I have worked with Arabs from Egypt,Saudi, Tunusia and Lybia they as racist as those Indians they treat us just as bad,never worse, purchase Ayaan's book and findout how African Moslems are treated in Saudi. Hypocracy of religion should be expose . Again I am so sorry to have hit the nerve Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
I know your type, you just quote verses out of context to feed your twisted arvesion of Islam.Besides, the Qur'an is not like the Bible, its not narrative in its approach, its instructive.You cant quote verses like you do here, in a cut and paste manner, and post them here.You need to provide the people you posting to the context of each verse.To give an interpretation of Qur'an, you need to know the sciences of interpreting it.It takes 4 years to study the sciences of interpreting it.You cant cut and paste verses here.Your approach is wrong. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Islam lost from its formation as it reduced women into properties of the male( I am sure that is not the problem as you are male) .To say Islam was trying to fix the problems of the past that is not true, robbing caravans of " infidels" how was it fixing things, reducing women to perpertual servitude and promoting slavery, how was it helping correct the past corruption? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
You havent hit any nerve, it takes far more that what you said to hurt my feelings.None of what you said here is true.You dont have to change your name to be Muslim.Islam is the one that abolished slavery.Islam doesnt encourage race superiority.None of what you saying here is actually correct.Saudis are Zionists, they are the last people you should consider as examples of Islam, and so are the Egyptians and many Arabs.This people have committed serious crimes Islamically and they will pay for it.They have done far more damage than America dropping bombs.They have destroyed Islam from the inside.I dont like the way Indians treat blacks here, I hate it.But dont confuse Indian culture which is racist to the core, with Islam.This two are NOT inter-changeable.Indians have issues among themselves, far bigger issues.They are messed up on their own.I dont condone what they do, especially when they use Islam as cover.That is unaceeptable.On the other hand, we as blacks need to wake up.Why are we always the doormat of every race under the sun?When are we going to wake up and stop blaming other and take responsibility for ourselves?Why do we allow to be used or abused?I think this has a lot to do with us sleeping than Indians or Arabs or whites.Aso long as we keep sleeping and not taking responsibility for our actions in our own country, strangers from far away places will come exploit us.The way we are, we are soo inviting even to people who come soo far away.All we want to do is blame blame blame.When are we going to wake up? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Narrative or not theirs religion has created more harm on this planet, we have Jihadist using the same claimed narratives verse. Read these verses and explain the context to us, if you think they cannot be explained:
Quran
XXIV/6-7 As for those who accuse their wives (wife) but have no witness except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...
II/223 Your women are a tilth for you to cultivate. so go to your tilth as ye will..
I'V/15 If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ... Confine them until death claims them.
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This is self explanatory you can make any intellectual excuses teaches that women should be treated inferior than men, why should one man's witness be so powerful and yet when you read the text where the case is a male against a male more witnesses are needed. Make excuses right.
You throwing everything in one go now.Show me how does Islam reduce woman into properties.Please show me.Dont tell me about Indian culture or Arab culture.Tell me how ISLAM reduce woman into property.Show me where Islam perpertuate slavery?Dont tell me Arabs do this and that, tell me how Islam does that.As for robbing caravans, really now that stooping very low.I dont know how you studied Islam really, Im begining to doubt you know anything here.The raiding of caravans was done because Muslims were is a state of war with the Quraish. It was practice then and still is now, countries at war do raid the enemy camp and loot it.Have you heard the saying ' to the voctor belongs the spoils'? Where do you think its coming from?What do you think it means? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Can you please quote a scripture in the Koran where it says Moslems should not own slaves, please do not tell me about the civilized people who fought for the abolishment of slavery. And please show me any narrative scripture that says a woman should be treated an equal, I have posted the scriptures that you claim are out of context. Yes I will paste and post as I am not born with knowledge like everyone else, except you who have the natural intelligence, cut and paste is not illegal and it similar to quoting a book, you cannot know algebra from birth so why worry when I paste the truth Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Is-it-just-me???
Mzabalazo what u r doing is foreign to Islam .
Quoting verses and throwing them like stones at others is foreign to us.
There are many people in this forum who are Muslims but won't comment because they know that "its a waste of time to argue with certain kinds of people".
Solm
Millions of all races have embraced Islam(Male,Female,poor,rich,scientists,dr's).That alone is proof . Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
The verses are posted above I will cut and paste
AUG 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Narrative or not theirs religion has created more harm on this planet, we have Jihadist using the same claimed narratives verse. Read these verses and explain the context to us, if you think they cannot be explained:
Quran
XXIV/6-7 As for those who accuse their wives (wife) but have no witness except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...
II/223 Your women are a tilth for you to cultivate. so go to your tilth as ye will..
I'V/15 If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ... Confine them until death claims them.
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This is self explanatory you can make any intellectual excuses teaches that women should be treated inferior than men, why should one man's witness be so powerful and yet when you read the text where the case is a male against a male more witnesses are needed. Make excuses right.
Mzabalazo enough about Islam.Everyone has read or heard about what the religion stands for.They have a choice to embrace it or reject it.
How about you.What do you stand for? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Sasafrican
@Dzel,thanks bro,how can one reach you,i have another confusing one here regarding the LRA,these companies are really messing us up Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
You and bin laden are the same.Him and him gang hand pick verses and butcher people, you hand-pick verses to butcher Islam.Both of you are bed fellows.
Man and woman NOT the same.They will NEVER be the same, you can protest all you want kicking and screaming, NOTHING will change that. This is a biological, psychological and emotional difference between man and woman.Nothing can change this FACT.That being said, Islam recognises this difference and grants male and females DIFFERENT but COMPLIMENTARY roles.A male has his rights and obligations, the same with woman. The reason why in the court of law, the woman testimony has a higher acceptance ratio, is that woman generally are emotional creatures.They were naturally made that way.Being emotional turns to cloud one's judgment.Im not saying man are not emotional, they are, but far less than woman.Now justice in Islam is very important value.Nothing is allowed to stand in the way of justice, not emotionalism, not subjectivity.This is the reason.It has nothing to do with enslaving or oppressing or making woman be property.It has everything to do with the natural fact that woman are emotional beings and emotions are not part of an Islamic court of law. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Is-it-just-me???
Uputhu and beans are Halaal.even better than oily chicken. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You want more?
Quotes from Hadith Tirmzi
If a woman's conduct is mischievous or immodest, the husband has the right to beat her up but must not break her bones
A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers(NAFAL) or observe fasting ( other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ is-it-just-me
I have tolerated Mzabalazo's butchering of Islam for a while now.It reaches a point where you just have to say something.Not for the sake of Mzabalazo alone but for the sake of those other readers who make opinions on Islam based on what Mzabalazo says.I dont mind criticism on Islam, but it has to be fair and factual.Dont make up things or twist things just so you can have a go at Islam.Its not fair. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Afrojoy
Why are we going bananas on this forum...even Woolies food is Halaal. Deal with it. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
LOL.Now you outdoing yourself.A woman is forbidden to make prayers without the permission of her husband?Where do you come up with all this stuff? A prayer is between a human being and God ALONE.None needs permission from any human being to pray.This is rubbish.Tell whoever was teaching you Islam they dont know it themselves.Listen to me, the Prophet never lifted a finger to harm any woman ALL his life.Why dont you judge Islam based on him? That Hadith you claim to be from Timidi, please give me reference for it. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Stop playing tricks, you said I should provide with verses reduces women to male chauvinst property, I gave them to you , now you understand them you needed no context as you claimed narrative blah blah , now you agree with the Koran that women should be the property of males, they should beat them, they should detain then,methyl should ask permission from male chauvinst to worship Allah.
No one said male and women are the same, infant even the children are not the same with women or children, but we cannot justify child abuse based on that,mas you justify women abuse, forgetting that your mother is a woman, your sisters are women and they deserve respect. This is pathetic coming from an an intelligent men like you. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Shredder
@Solm
I have tolerated Mzabalazo's butchering of Islam for a while now.
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Hihihihihihi. I wanted to see how much farther you could go. Hihihihihi. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm I copy and paste from the English version of the Koran, given to me by a good Moslem friend of mine from Bahrain
You said I should show I am showing you now you feel the evidence is too much to handle and you have to keep quite for the sake of others. I can take that, it's okay. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Afrojoy
What Mzabalazo is saying is not only true representation of the quotes as they are from the Quran, but also a true account of what happens in most of the Islam community. Solm, Is-It-Just-Me maybe can explain why death and killing and butchering lies at the heart of Islam belief and practice? Why is the Boko Haram butchering people? Why Al Qaeda...why London bombings against innocent souls? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
I gave you the situation those verses are dealing with.What more you want from me? Where did I say woman should be property of males? You not only putting words on Islam, you putting words on me now.What is the matter with you? Are you even listening to what Im saying or you having this conversation with yourself?have you heard anything I have told you? Show me the abuse that Islam is doing on woman.Im waiting for that one. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Dear, you dont read verses that way.Did your good Muslim friend not tell you HOW to read those verses?Is he or she did that then its a great disservice.You dont do what you doing.Otherwise you become bin laden of Islam. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
LOL.Now you outdoing yourself.A woman is forbidden to make prayers without the permission of her husband?Where do you come up with all this stuff? A prayer is between a human being and God ALONE.None needs permission from any human being to pray.This is rubbish.Tell whoever was teaching you Islam they dont know it themselves.Listen to me, the Prophet never lifted a finger to harm any woman ALL his life.Why dont you judge Islam based on him? That Hadith you claim to be from Timidi, please give me reference for it.
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Nowhere did I say Mohammad lifted a hand for her wives, I have quoted from the Koran what it says on how treat a woman and these are just a few verses about how women are treated, sleeping with slaves by force and the Koran saying a man kcal sleep with a slave child as long as they never brast feeded by the man's wife. How often can a master's wife can breast feed a slave child?
I never said Muhammad beat his wives , but the Koran says you can beat your wife, and you said I can cry and scream but women and men will never be the same, that too surprised me as I never claimed that we will ever be the same,. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
I gave you the situation those verses are dealing with.What more you want from me? Where did I say woman should be property of males? You not only putting words on Islam, you putting words on me now.What is the matter with you? Are you even listening to what Im saying or you having this conversation with yourself?have you heard anything I have told you? Show me the abuse that Islam is doing on woman.Im waiting for that one.
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Solm if you allowed to beat your wife, and confine them until death, then they are no longer your equals, they are your property, that is if you have the absolute power over a person and you can do as you please, something you cannot do to another, they are reduced to a property, yes the Koran does not say they are your property per se, but at the end tha is that. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ afrojoy
What Al Qaida is doing has NOTHING to do with Islam, what Boko Harram is doing in Nigeria has NOTHING to do with Islam.All these groups from Nigeria to the Philliphines, they do what Mzabalazo is doing, hand-pick verses and 'apply' them.This is why there are sciences of interpreting Qur'an.You need to learn the tools of interpretaion first before doing it. There is what we call asbab an nuzzul or reasons for the revelation of verses.You cant cut and paste verses without knowing the reasons for their revelation.This is very important.Verses were revealed to respond to a particular situation that has arisen at the time of the Prophet. How are you going to understand the point of the verse without knowing the set of facts that necessitated the revelation of that verse? Asbab an nuzzul is just one of many sciences of interpreting verses.There are many other that I dont have time to go into now. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You also misquoting wheat is written it says a woman should ask for her husband's permission to nmake an extra NAFAL , it does not say he is forbidden to make NAFAL, so do not change what is written. In short a man can make an extra NAFAL they need no one's permission but a woman has to get a permission to make an EXTRA NAFAL . That is wrong and unfair to the core Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
Mzabalazo
Nowhere did I say Mohammad lifted a hand for her wives, I have quoted from the Koran what it says on how treat a woman and these are just a few verses about how women are treated, sleeping with slaves by force and the Koran saying a man kcal sleep with a slave child as long as they never brast feeded by the man's wife. How often can a master's wife can breast feed a slave child?
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I asked you to show me where the Qur'an abuses woman.Instead you telling us about some hadith from Tirmidi.Common now. Where does the Qur'an say Muslims must sleep with slaves by force? Slave child? Where did you get that? You are soo confused.I will give you my email address and I will take you step by step explaining things to you.You mixing too many issue and confusing yourself.
I never said Muhammad beat his wives , but the Koran says you can beat your wife, and you said I can cry and scream but women and men will never be the same, that too surprised me as I never claimed that we will ever be the same,.
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I made the point about kicking and screaming when I was explaining the witness issue, not about beating woman.You see why I say you confusing yourself? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You can say all that , do you not pick a certain verse when you eat, when you observe RAMADAN,? RAMADAN is not in the all the verses, when you separate men from women in worship aren't you guys hand picking one verse,. Do not try some religious acrobatics as if when you practice a certain service it is written in all the KORAN, when you take off your shoes when you enter the Mosque that is hand picking one verse. So it is right when you do that but we must not do that. Hypocrisy at its best. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm if you allowed to beat your wife, and confine them until death, then they are no longer your equals, they are your property, that is if you have the absolute power over a person and you can do as you please, something you cannot do to another, they are reduced to a property, yes the Koran does not say they are your property per se, but at the end tha is that.
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Who said woman should be beaten until death?What are you talking about? How can God adviocate something like that? The husbans doesnt have absolute right to the wife, God does. The wife is allowed to play her role as a wife in a marriage provided the husband fulfills his Islamic role.Please get this out of you mind....nowhere does the Qur'an say a husband can beat the wife to death,This is NOT true! Woman and man are equal in Islam spiritually, there is no defference made.However physically there are DIFFERENT, as such they have DIFFERENT roles.Can you understand that? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You are not discussing out of good faith, what is the use of me posting Koran scriptures and then after that you do not attend to them instead you telli us that I am hand- picking verses , if not saying I am taking them out of context, I asked you to put the verses I have quoted in context you did not, instead I am the only one here doing the bending, you ask me to bring a qoute and I do but you do not even try to do a little bending, is because you are a male or what?
Now promise me that when I post the verse you will put in context and explain how wrong I was for qouting
Let's start with this qouation from Koran I V/15 if any woman is guilty of lewdness... Confine them until death claims them
XXIV/6-7 as for those who accuse their wives but have n witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
You can say all that , do you not pick a certain verse when you eat, when you observe RAMADAN,? RAMADAN is not in the all the verses, when you separate men from women in worship aren't you guys hand picking one verse,. Do not try some religious acrobatics as if when you practice a certain service it is written in all the KORAN, when you take off your shoes when you enter the Mosque that is hand picking one verse. So it is right when you do that but we must not do that. Hypocrisy at its best.
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No I dont pick a certain verse when I eat or fast in Ramadaan.You need to know the basics of Islam first Mzabalazo before you comment about anything really.The Qur'an rarely goes into details.I tells us to fast but not the details of fasting.You get the details from the Sunnah or practice of the Prophet. This is why you cant cut and paste verses here. The separation of women from man in the mosque is debatable.At the time of the Prophet women prayed with men but at the back but now some mosques are not even allowing women inside them.This is not how things should be done.Thats why Im saying there is a lot of cultural things people imported into Islam that dont belong there.This are issues Muslims debate among themselves a lot. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You do not read your Koran that is why you get so flabbergasted when I qoute Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Let's start with this qouation from Koran I V/15 if any woman is guilty of lewdness... Confine them until death claims them
XXIV/6-7 as for those who accuse their wives but have n witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies
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Solm be practical take your Koran and read these verse and put them in a context, do not say you cannot do this and that, just prove me wrong put them in a context make them say something else other than what I say they mean
explain them the way they are explained, or the way you understand them. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Use the practice of The prophet in explaining these scriptures, I don't care how you do it, explain them, give us what they mean Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Sold
Can you put us at rest, explain to us what these scriptures mean, before I post the slave ones, because I find it very daring to be told one and the same thing, so please give us the explaination Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Sold
Can you put us at rest, explain to us what these scriptures mean, before I post the slave ones, because I find it very daring to be told one and the same thing, so please give us the explaination
@ Solm sorry for misspelling your name
I am waiting for a right way of reading the Koran, up have read it many a times than me and you understand and know it, so please explain what the above verses mean, you cannot say I am qouating them wrongly and not show us how to use them, explain to us what do they mean when they say a man's witness should be as strong as four witnesses against his wive, bear that in mind that I know what Muhammad said on witness and disputes, which is different for women. Please I beg you. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
You are not discussing out of good faith, what is the use of me posting Koran scriptures and then after that you do not attend to them instead you telli us that I am hand- picking verses , if not saying I am taking them out of context, I asked you to put the verses I have quoted in context you did not, instead I am the only one here doing the bending, you ask me to bring a qoute and I do but you do not even try to do a little bending, is because you are a male or what?
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The difficulty here Mzabalazo is that you want me to discuss something with you when you dont have all the information you need to interpret a verse.This is the point I have been making.You need to learn the tools of interpretation first.
Now promise me that when I post the verse you will put in context and explain how wrong I was for qouting
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Ok but I wont be able to do that now.You want me to do a commentary on the verse, you looking at 3-5 pages.That I cant do here.Thats why I offered that I give you my email so I can hve time to address your concerns in full.You dont deal with Qur'an like that.
Let's start with this qouation from Koran I V/15 if any woman is guilty of lewdness... Confine them until death claims them
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There is a difference of opinion on what this verse is dealing with.Other scholars argue that its talking about adultry or fornication.Other scholars argue that it doesnt deal with those cases because already the punishment for adultry is prescribed.These scholars argue that the verse is talking about crimes committed between woman.I would think its female to female interrcourse as the wording is structured to address two female subjects.What the verse is saying is that if there is a claim of such a nature against a woman, a trial has to be conducted and witness presented.If she is found guilty, they have to be confined to a particular place untill death claim them or God decide some punishment for them.Few things to consider here.Crimes done in public are punishable under Shariah, there are prescribed punishment for them.The reason for this is that Shariah discourages public commission of sins or crimes. Such a crime or sin harms the community as a whole.This is why its punished, it has a deterant purpose punishing for crimes in public.Those committed in private, as it appears to be the case with this verse you quote, Shariah doesnt concern itself about UNLESS they spill over into the public domain.If they are private, then its for God to punish on Judgment Day.If they spill over to the public than they punisheable.I will research for you the circumstance leading to the revelation of this verse.By the way, the first that this verse particularly addresses woman, it doesnt mean the man guilty of the same crimes cant be punished in a similar manner.I will find out the details for you.
XXIV/6-7 as for those who accuse their wives but have n witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies
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This is about legalities, about evidence.Whats your problem with this? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Good, very good now.You separating issues and mentioning one thing at the time.You doing much better now.I need to get ready to break my fast in 30 mins or so.Im going to ask you to release me soon. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
I am waiting for a right way of reading the Koran, up have read it many a times than me and you understand and know it, so please explain what the above verses mean, you cannot say I am qouating them wrongly and not show us how to use them, explain to us what do they mean when they say a man's witness should be as strong as four witnesses against his wive, bear that in mind that I know what Muhammad said on witness and disputes, which is different for women. Please I beg you.
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I didnt say you quoting them wrongly, I said your APPROACH to them is wrong.I made this point soo many times already.Dont make me repeat it please Im the one begging you now. About the reason why it says a man's testimony four times.I studies Law myself,even in our courts, there is scepticism about a single witness evidence.For example, if you married and you husband says Mzabalazo my wife did XYZ in an Islamic court.Because he doesnt have evidence other than his testimony.The verse makes him take an aoth by God 4 times, before his testimony can be entertained.This is to avoid condemning a wife to a punishment when there is no evidence convicting her.This is why the 4 times.This is about fiqh or Islamic jurisprudence.Like I told you, Islam places greater emphasis on justice.It doesnt compromise on justify.Therefore Muslim judges are very cautious with a single witness evidence. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
I need to prepare to break my fast now.Feel free to email me sydm76@gmail.com.You can email me anytime on anything about Islam, you or anyone here. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
To the supporters of Solm
You can defend Islam that is your constitutional rights but it is also my constitutional right to criticize responsibly. Solm wants me to write all the pages of Koran, and not qoute a single verse relevant to what I am presenting, and he uses the old trick in the book that the Koran is so special it cannot be understood until you understand the concept Koran, that is ridiculous and absurd. I write the whole Suravand it will not change anything, when you reach the verses I have quoted they will the same. This is the old trick in the book, this is not a book of recipe whereby you need to read from the start in order to get the recipe, the fight,k#ill infidels won't change just because I have written the whole Koran, they won't. He doesn't even attempt to explain how he understand these verse linked to the whole context, why just because there is no whole context. You can support him alright and I am cool with it.
There we go I will just write one page of Sura 25-al Furkan Mecca-77verses: and see if we will unlock the "mystery of the context" :
In the name of God all compassionate, the Merciful
Blessed be who hath sent down Al Fulkan on his servant, that to all creatures he may be a Warner , His the Kingdom of the Heavens and of the earth! No son hath he begotten!........ They have adopted gods besides him which have created nothing..... Say: he hath sent it down who know etch the secrets of the Heavens and of the earth. He truly is Gracious the Merciful..... Had we pleased, we had raised up a Warner in every city. Give not way therefore to the infidels,but by means of this Koran fight against them with a might strife. And He it is is who hath let loose the two seas, the one sweet, fresh and the other salt, bitter and hath put an interspace between them, and the barrier that cannot be passed, And He who hath created man of water, and established them between them ties of kindness and affinity: and potent is thy Lord.Yet beside God they worship what can neither help nor hurt them: And the Infidel is Satan's helper against his Lord...
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I can go on and on but each verse does not change any verse nor does it makes the other lighter or stronger, we read words we speak words and both spoken they translate the emotions, feelings and ideas of the writer or the speaker, no word changes anything. There is context missed if you doubt that please purchase your own Koran and read every Sura. I rest my case for now.
Solm
That is not justice if one person's witness is as 4 people, that is unfair, justice is as it is practice in our world one witness equals one witness that is why in some cases it becomes "your word against mine" that is unless there is no other witness or evidence to support your argument the case cannot be judged in favour of of the plaintif. Thus if there was any justice at all in this principle we would be using it. No one whatsoever , and this a specially made for wives accessed by their husband. Swearing in the holy book is not the proof that one is telling the truth, we see that happening all the time, it can only help in punishing the liar if and only if they are discovered lying. So that does not hold the water. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Good, very good now.You separating issues and mentioning one thing at the time.You doing much better now.I need to get ready to break my fast in 30 mins or so.Im going to ask you to release me soon.
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Another strategy, you are trying to says I was mixing things , why have I managed to address your concerns without waiting for you to separate things,myou just patronizing me. There is no mixing of issues, if you were honest you would have addressed all the issues raised , again they are not many . You would have said this scripture is this way and that is this way and so on. And again your explaination is your own interpretation trying to defend the undefendable, if that is what Muhammad meant we would have just written so, you are no different from Christians, you cannot change what is written for an example Muhammad. Can speak for himself he does not need a lawyer to interpret for his. Check this out : Sura 24 :30 Speak unto the believing women that they refrain their eyes and observe continence; and that they display not their ornaments , except those which are external, and that they throw their veils over their blossoms and display not their ornaments except to their fathers or their husbands or their sons...or their slaves, or male domestic who have no natural force... This is as clear as the other scripture that I have quoted , you cannot add it to suit your explaination it is self- explanatory just as the scripture to have tried so much to decorate in order to hide male chauvinism that it displays. These scriptures are self - explanatory stop doctoring them.
To the supporters of Solm
You can defend Islam that is your constitutional rights but it is also my constitutional right to criticize responsibly.
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What is responsible with your criticism here? You have made up stuff and cut and pasted verses to feed your pre-existing mentality.That is nothing response about that. I dont mind you being critical of Islam, thats welcome.However distortion is something else.Islam doesnt axcept its followers to just accept things, it asks us to reflect and ponder.Im more than happy to entertain a debate with you or anyone on Islam.
Solm wants me to write all the pages of Koran, and not qoute a single verse relevant to what I am presenting, and he uses the old trick in the book that the Koran is so special it cannot be understood until you understand the concept Koran, that is ridiculous and absurd.
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To make you aware of the sciences of interpreting the Qur' an is NOT a trick.People take 4 full years to study this and you want to overlook it and treat the Qur' an the way YOU want it to be.It doesnt work that way dear.Well claerly you dont understand it and I have trying to help you the whole time.I didnt say understand the concept of Qur'an.I said you need to know the tools of interpreting it.Why is this difficult to sink in your mind? You have made a mistake of having a misinformed opinion of Qur'an, you have drawn your own skewed conclusions.You dont understand ONE science, I have been repaeting it over and over and over again and still you dont get it.What about the rest? You and Al qaeda are cut from the same cloth.You both have twisted minds.
I write the whole Suravand it will not change anything, when you reach the verses I have quoted they will the same. This is the old trick in the book, this is not a book of recipe whereby you need to read from the start in order to get the recipe, the fight,k#ill infidels won't change just because I have written the whole Koran, they won't.
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Do you know the people that verse you quoting is referring to?This is what Im telling you but Im not succeding. Qur'an NEVER says Muslims must initiate fights with infedils ( who were Quraish), this is self-defence.But you dont tell the people you posting for this.Why?Even when Muslims are given permission to fight in self-defence.The Qur'an cautions against being excessive in your retaliation.It says God doesnt like excesses.This again you intentionally leave out.Why?
He doesn't even attempt to explain how he understand these verse linked to the whole context, why just because there is no whole context. You can support him alright and I am cool with it.
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LOL.I did that already.Just because you dont like the answer it doesnt mean I didnt give you one.By the way if you want to know the meaning of a verse, dont use translations.Arabic is a very rich laguage and its a great disservice to use English to translate it.English is weak and shallow.Its really not the correct medium to understand issues in the Qur'an.Yes they will give you an IDEA but never the same thing.Every verse has a context.
There we go I will just write one page of Sura 25-al Furkan Mecca-77verses: and see if we will unlock the "mystery of the context" :
In the name of God all compassionate, the Merciful
Blessed be who hath sent down Al Fulkan on his servant, that to all creatures he may be a Warner , His the Kingdom of the Heavens and of the earth! No son hath he begotten!........ They have adopted gods besides him which have created nothing..... Say: he hath sent it down who know etch the secrets of the Heavens and of the earth. He truly is Gracious the Merciful..... Had we pleased, we had raised up a Warner in every city. Give not way therefore to the infidels,but by means of this Koran fight against them with a might strife. And He it is is who hath let loose the two seas, the one sweet, fresh and the other salt, bitter and hath put an interspace between them, and the barrier that cannot be passed, And He who hath created man of water, and established them between them ties of kindness and affinity: and potent is thy Lord.Yet beside God they worship what can neither help nor hurt them: And the Infidel is Satan's helper against his Lord...
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Do you know what the verse mean when it talks about the meeting of the two seas? Whats the point of quoting this verse by the way?
I can go on and on but each verse does not change any verse nor does it makes the other lighter or stronger, we read words we speak words and both spoken they translate the emotions, feelings and ideas of the writer or the speaker, no word changes anything. There is context missed if you doubt that please purchase your own Koran and read every Sura. I rest my case for now.
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There are verses that change others.Becareful uttering things you know nothing about, thread very very carefully. You cant get the emotions or feelings with English translation, the translations water down points being made.However if you want to hold your own opinions on Islam, regardless of the things brought before you.There is little I can do about it.
Solm
I do not need to know what the meetings of the seas as it is not relevant to my life, what I was dining was to simply show you that your 4 years of study does change what we read, you studied what you wanted to believe what you wanted so, those studies you are doing does not even change tha fact that Islam is divided into Sunni and Shi'a worship and all of you study for 4 year and come as divided as ever in your interpretation and practices so your study won't change the words and in the Koran. So it does serve me any better your studying of religious dogma. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm
That is not justice if one person's witness is as 4 people, that is unfair, justice is as it is practice in our world one witness equals one witness that is why in some cases it becomes "your word against mine" that is unless there is no other witness or evidence to support your argument the case cannot be judged in favour of of the plaintif. Thus if there was any justice at all in this principle we would be using it. No one whatsoever , and this a specially made for wives accessed by their husband. Swearing in the holy book is not the proof that one is telling the truth, we see that happening all the time, it can only help in punishing the liar if and only if they are discovered lying. So that does not hold the water.
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The verse says if a husband accuses the wife of something and ALL he has is his word and NO EVIDENCE.It says the husband must bear witness 4 times over for his testimony to be accepted this is NOT to say its the only consideration when convicting her.This is about the law of evidence, what evidence can be ADMISSABLE in court.Admitting evidence is NOT the same as convicting.That eveidence or testimony has to be tested against the wife's version and her evidence of she has any.This is what the verse is dealing with.It sound fair and just to me.What is your problem with this? Guess what? We do have single witness evidence rule in our law. Swearing on the Qur'an or bearing false witness is a very serious sin in Islam.Its one of the major sins. I dont think you understand what this verse or me what Im saying.
Solm
I can see the emotions and feelings from Moslem, veiled women, separate worship, men given the upper hand to dominate women just like all the the 3 Abrahamic religions Hebrew/ Jewish religion, Christainity and Islam, I can see the emotion and feeling from the division of Islam just like ZCC having the bird and the star, so you have displayed the emotions and feeling good enough that I do not even want to find myself on such an environment. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Provide the evidence that backs your statement that there is also an evidence required , base your argument with an evidence from Koran,mod not just throw words that are not there in the scripture at hand, provide your support from the Koran, I cannot allow you you come up with un substinciated statements., provide a scripture as this verse does not anything like that.,maybe you got that from another verse provide it Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm
I do not need to know what the meetings of the seas as it is not relevant to my life, what I was dining was to simply show you that your 4 years of study does change what we read, you studied what you wanted to believe what you wanted so, those studies you are doing does not even change tha fact that Islam is divided into Sunni and Shi'a worship and all of you study for 4 year and come as divided as ever in your interpretation and practices so your study won't change the words and in the Koran. So it does serve me any better your studying of religious dogma
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If you think its not relevant then you missed the point.Studying the sciences changes many things.Now you bringing the Sunni and Shia issue.You see what Im saying about you throwing everytihng to me?LOL.I dont know what you are trying to do.We were talking about interpretation but now you jumping to Shia and Sunni pilitics.Its fine I will indulge you.The Sunni and Shia issue is NOT theological, they have political differences.There is nothing wrong with having differences of opinions. It doesnt serve you better? You cant understand ONE science but you want to take a swipe at all the scinces.LOL.Whatever makes you sleep Mzabalazo. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm
I can see the emotions and feelings from Moslem, veiled women, separate worship, men given the upper hand to dominate women just like all the the 3 Abrahamic religions Hebrew/ Jewish religion, Christainity and Islam, I can see the emotion and feeling from the division of Islam just like ZCC having the bird and the star, so you have displayed the emotions and feeling good enough that I do not even want to find myself on such an environment.
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You underlooking one thing.Before Islam women were treated as sub-humans that couldnt own property.Girls were burried alive because families feared the burden of having to bring up a girl child who has no benefit to them.Islam changed all this by lifting up the status of woman and granting them rights.Islam shunned the practice of burrying girls alive by outlawing this practice.When you want to measure the status of woman in Islam, do so against the pre- Islamic period.Dont use the 21st century norms to judge the status of woman 1500 years ago.Islam doesnt oppress woman, it treats them differently as they are different.This is not necessarily unfair.Woman enjoy far more rights than man in certain issues.For example. if Im married, as a husband I dont have any claim to what my wife owns.What she acquires is hers and hers alone.What I acquire as a husband she has a claim in.SHe can even charge me for breasfeeding our child.This is how far this favours woman.You dont hear man making noise about this.
Islam has divisions.However dont judge Islam by Muslims, it wont be the accurate reflection of Islam.Thats why I asked you to use the model of the Prophe if you want to measure Islam.He was the perfect example of what it means to be the best Muslim.Muslims have issues, some serious others not, but if we all had to model our behaviour according to the Prophet, all these differences will disappear. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Swearing in a bible is a major sin if you are lying and I do not know that you know what that involves, so it is no different, but people do that all the time and they getaway with . That is why people's hands are cut in Saudi but not all of them are caught some getaway with it in all religions, if not so we wouldn't be having prisons filled with Moslems in Moslem countries and Christians in secular countries and Jewish as in worship in ISrael, as a person who is studying law that fact cannot elude you. Lawyers have helped Christians, Moslems and Jewish as in religion, getaway with crime, and some innocent people in all these religions have been wrongly punished that is the fact of life that no religion can dispute so do not tell me that how serious it is to swear falsely, people do that all the time, it doesn't matter whether it is the secular courts or religious courts, that is why we have people bombing others and shooting others at scholols, religion with its dogma has failed to make people better citizens instead the religion has fuelled the skirmishes, CHRISTIANS AGAINST CHRISTIANS, MOSLEMS AGAINST MOSLEMS, CHRISTIANS AGAINST MOSLEMS ANS VICA VERSA, MOSLEMS AGAINST BUDDHIST HINDUS AGAINST MOSLEMS. So I don't purchase the swearing on an religious book it hold sno water. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm
Provide the evidence that backs your statement that there is also an evidence required , base your argument with an evidence from Koran,mod not just throw words that are not there in the scripture at hand, provide your support from the Koran, I cannot allow you you come up with un substinciated statements., provide a scripture as this verse does not anything like that.,maybe you got that from another verse provide it
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Evidence required from whom? The wife or husband? What you also need to know here is that there are 4 sources of Islamic law.1) Qur'an, 2) Sunnah ( there is difference of opinion here whether its Sunnah of the Prophet or community) or mannerism, 3) Ijma or consensus of the scholars, 4) Ijtihad or analogical deductions. I can go into details in each one of these if you want.But all these constitute the body of Islamic jusrisprudence or fiqh. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Do not play that trick on me I have verses right now that show how the Muhammad in the Koran says how the wealth should be divided, women a given less, and if a woman is the only one left to inherit her fathers' property she get far much less, what is that? You call that treating women better, in my father' s will everything is divided evenly amongst two girls and two boys , if my father was the Prophet me and my younger sister were going to get less. Veiling women just because men cannot be faithful, we have to cover even the hands for what? Islam is not liberating women no religion is doing that, have you read the restrictions given to women, I don't think you have, if you did you wouldn't not praise Islam as the liberator of women. You yourself were shouting just 3 hours ago that men and women are not the same and will never be the same , just because a woman exposed the unjust scripture to woman. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
As long as there is a difference of opinion that shows that your laws just like the Christain ones are man made, why should Allah allow for a difference of opinions in the execution of his commands. That is hallow. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm
Swearing in a bible is a major sin if you are lying and I do not know that you know what that involves, so it is no different, but people do that all the time and they getaway with .
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An Islamic court has to hear BOTH side of the story before convicting.It can never convict only based on a husband's version of events. This will be the travesty of justice.The fact that as a husband my evidence is admitted, it doesnt mean its the end of the story.It simply means it passed the REQUIREMENT test to be PRESENTED in court.Please understand this, it doesnt mean a conviction right away.
That is why people's hands are cut in Saudi but not all of them are caught some getaway with it in all religions, if not so we wouldn't be having prisons filled with Moslems in Moslem countries and Christians in secular countries and Jewish as in worship in ISrael, as a person who is studying law that fact cannot elude you
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Saudi only practises 'Shariah" law to poor people.Those fat corrupt Kings are NOT subject to Shariah, they do as they please.Also when Muslim countries say they practice 100% Shariah, what this means is SHariah will be used as a political tool to silince dissent.So you need to know these things first before getting carried away with all the Shariah hype.Those fat corrupt Kings do far more harm in Muslim communities than people they cut hands or behead.If there is anyone worth beheading, its them, not the poor people.
Lawyers have helped Christians, Moslems and Jewish as in religion, getaway with crime, and some innocent people in all these religions have been wrongly punished that is the fact of life that no religion can dispute so do not tell me that how serious it is to swear falsely, people do that all the time, it doesn't matter whether it is the secular courts or religious courts, that is why we have people bombing others and shooting others at scholols, religion with its dogma has failed to make people better citizens instead the religion has fuelled the skirmishes, CHRISTIANS AGAINST CHRISTIANS, MOSLEMS AGAINST MOSLEMS, CHRISTIANS AGAINST MOSLEMS ANS VICA VERSA, MOSLEMS AGAINST BUDDHIST HINDUS AGAINST MOSLEMS. So I don't purchase the swearing on an religious book it hold sno water
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The system starts to breakdown if its used subjectively for political reasons.In most cases religion has little to do with skirmishes,especially in Muslim countries. The collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WW1 caused a lot of chaos and vacuum in Muslim countries.Thats why you see groups either kidnapping or pirating or indiscriminately killing people.This is all because of the absence of authority.In a proper Muslim system, swearing on a Qur'an is a very serious business.Then again, as I explained, swearing in is not equal to conviction. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm at al
Koran 4:11 Allah directs you as regards your children's inheritance : to a male a portion equal that of two females, if only daughters two or more, their share is two thirds of the inheritance. If only one daughter her share is only half. What a so called better treatment of women
Koran 4:176... If a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: if there are two sisters , they shall have two thirds of the inheritance, if there ate brothers and sisters the males takes twice the shares of females.
That is not making a woman's life better at all. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Croatia was fuelled by religious in tolarence of Christians against Moslems, the b#ombing of Buddhist relics was by the Taliban was religious fuelled, the attack of The USA and Britian was fuelled by religious fa#natics who happen to associate themselves with Islam religion. The attacks of caravans by Muhammed was fuelled by religion as he states it clearly in the Koran that the unbelievers should be attacked and spoils be shared, one of Muhammed's wife was a spoil of an attacked caravan. You cannot take religion out of the equation. Because today Palestinian are struggling because of a religious claim by Isreali , always religion has a bigger role in wars. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm
Do not play that trick on me I have verses right now that show how the Muhammad in the Koran says how the wealth should be divided, women a given less, and if a woman is the only one left to inherit her fathers' property she get far much less, what is that?
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Im not playing tricks on you, you just dont have enough information to go by understanding the meaning of those verses.This is why its not making sense to you.Let me explain.As I said both male and females have different roles in Islam.A husband has his own rights and obligation, so is the wife. One of the primary responsibilities of a husband or male is to provide for the wife or female. The responsibility of providing is squarely on the husband.This is why husbands or males are ENTRUSTED with a bigger share because they provide.This doesnt mean the male or husband gets a bigger share and thats it.No.It means after taking a bigger share he has an OBLIGATION to look after or provide for the female.This is the part you missing.Woman have no responsibility to provide, thats why they can a smaller share.The share they get is theirs and ONLY theirs.Do you understand?
You call that treating women better, in my father' s will everything is divided evenly amongst two girls and two boys , if my father was the Prophet me and my younger sister were going to get less.
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I explained this already.
Veiling women just because men cannot be faithful, we have to cover even the hands for what? Islam is not liberating women no religion is doing that, have you read the restrictions given to women, I don't think you have, if you did you wouldn't not praise Islam as the liberator of women. You yourself were shouting just 3 hours ago that men and women are not the same and will never be the same , just because a woman exposed the unjust scripture to woman.
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Covering serves many purposes in both sides.Who said woman must cover hands? Islam only require woman to cover their aurah or private areas: this is the hair, neck all the way down and not wear tight clothes.We man have roving eyes, this is a natural fact.When we see something unbecoming we cant control our gazes.This is disruptive.If a lady is covered properly, there is no show and no disturbance.On the other hand, as a lady.Would you rather have men drooling over you for your looks or character?Would you rather be reduced to a physical object of attraction or you want something depper than that.Lets be honest now.Muslim man have taken this covering far beyond whats required Islamically, they have taken it to meet their cultural expectations.This is where the problem comes in.Islam has its own culture, it doesnt need to be supplemented with other cultures.
You yourself were shouting just 3 hours ago that men and women are not the same and will never be the same , just because a woman exposed the unjust scripture to woman.
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There is nothing unjust.Where is injustice?
Solm
This proves that religion be it Christianity or Islam not forgetting Hindusm, is not a solution, it does not bring peace and infant it can be manipulated to serve the rich, establish corrupt government. There is country that put religion upfront that upholds human justice. USA under G.Bush was fuelled by religion and greed (axis of evil) in attacking Iraq, Saddam could not be made a better ruler by religion, so what is all the fuss with religion be it Islam or Christianity making the lives of people better? Nothing all is just a pipe dream based on Middle easterners claiming they were given revelation, others been the Messiah and others claiming they are the chosen nations all this not on. Because non of these religions made life better, instead we Africans were taken as slaves and forced to convert by both Islam and Christainity,ntoday we have Arabs occupying Egypt,Tunisia, Mali, Sudan, Morocco,Mauritania,Chad and Lybia instead of Africans, they maimed Africans and sold most as slaves, the few remaining there are subjugated it does not matter even if they are Moslems they are treated as inferior . Christianity did the same to us.bwhat was the use of Muhammed receiving the prophecy went it never helped the destitute infidels who had to subjugated until they pay tax later on lost their land, where was the All Merciful Allah? I do not purchase what you guys are giving us, religion is hipocracybat it's best, the real culprit in our misery. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Croatia was fuelled by religious in tolarence of Christians against Moslems, the b#ombing of Buddhist relics was by the Taliban was religious fuelled, the attack of The USA and Britian was fuelled by religious fa#natics who happen to associate themselves with Islam religion.
You mixing too many dissimilar issues now. We dont know who attacked America on 9/11 do you? Neither do we know who attacked Britain.There are much more sinister forces at play here than what you read on the media.Personally Im not convinced that a group of guys in a cave can pull off an organised attacke like that.There was just too many things that had to be aggreeable with those attacks to be done by Bin Laden and comp.I just dont buy that.The same with Britain. As for Taliban I can accept that the dustruction of that Buddha statue was religously motivated.Afghanistan is a Muslim country, overwhelmingly Muslim country and idolarty is forbidden in Islam.I can understand why the Taliban destroyed it.
The attacks of caravans by Muhammed was fuelled by religion as he states it clearly in the Koran that the unbelievers should be attacked and spoils be shared, one of Muhammed's wife was a spoil of an attacked caravan. You cannot take religion out of the equation. Because today Palestinian are struggling because of a religious claim by Isreali , always religion has a bigger role in wars.
The attacks of caravans by Muhammed was fuelled by religion as he states it clearly in the Koran that the unbelievers should be attacked and spoils be shared, one of Muhammed's wife was a spoil of an attacked caravan. You cannot take religion out of the equation
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What Im objecting to is you ignoring the context of the caravan raiding. The Quraish oppressed Muslims for 13 years in Makkah and Muslims persevered because God hadnt given them a command to retaliate.So they had to escape to Ethopia some of them under very harsh conditions.They rest had to immigrate to Medina when the hardship were becaming unbearable.Only when Muslims had established a base in Medina were they commanded to fight.Also the fighting was not just for the sake of fighting, it was to liberate Makkah and destroy all the idolators that were being worshipped in the Kabah.This is what you missing.The raiding of caravans was an attempt to economically cripple the Quraish. The same way America is imposing sanctions on countries it disagrees with.This is the context you missing.When Makkah was liberated, there were no more raiding of caravans belonging to Quraish.I dont know how much Muslim history you know.
Because today Palestinian are struggling because of a religious claim by Isreali , always religion has a bigger role in wars.
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This is a different issue all together.Palestine is occupied by Zionists not because of Judaism.Judaism is against Zionism. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
That is real male chauvinism, what would happen if the woman gets an equal share? Women for years have been looking after the family, why should a male be given more to look after a woman, that is male chauvinist, and never ever say I do not understand, I understand alright it I didn't I would have agreed with male chauvinism of Quran /Koran, we women we are not disabled we can take care of ourselves, we're kept into lower positions by you males for centuries and we were told lies that we cannot take care of ourselves, Shaka was raised by a single woman Nandi after Senzangakhona chased them away from his kraal even the relatives of Nandi did not want her back, we had heroines like Mkabayi ka Jama and Manthatise of Lesotho and Joan of Arc in France, I detest when a civilized man like you still perpertuate male chauvinism with scriptures thta devalue women's gains. We are never going back there only those women who still kept in religious yolk will satisfy you're religious male ego, our constitution is not purchasing all that we're free. Now and we will keep making those gains, poor women with veils I pity them, they take that nonsense. I understand female oppression because I am a female and therefore I do understand scripture s that perpertuate inequalities amongst sex#es Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Your argument is that skirmishes have little to do with religion . I was giving you the evidence thata religion have more to do with skirmishes that you thought, that is why I quoted Judaism, Christainity !Hinduism and Islam. The stopping of attacking caravans happened too late for the innocent people who were ki#lled and if Allah was really mercifully he wouldn't have let is prophet, a holy man k#ill people and loot their belongings including wives and children in the first place, just because they hold a different religious view. That was unspeakable it is similar to what some of ou Caucasian countrymen saying to us stop holding on apartheid crimes they are long gone. Muhammed and his band of religious people committed injustices to others, if there is hell as the Koran preaches why then they did wait the creators of these infidels to k#ill them himself instead of doing that themselves, this is travesty at its best Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm
This proves that religion be it Christianity or Islam not forgetting Hindusm, is not a solution, it does not bring peace and infant it can be manipulated to serve the rich, establish corrupt government. There is country that put religion upfront that upholds human justice.
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This is not entirely true.Jews and Muslims co-existed in Spain for 400 years peacefully. When Muslims were kicked out of Spain by Christians, Jews chose to leave with Muslims.They didnt want to stay under Christian rule.So religion didnt do that bad up untill 100 years or so.Therefore Im not going to use the history of the last 1000 years to judge religion, history didnt start in the last 100 years.I cant ignore the history spanning over 1400 years.That wouldnt be fair.Religion is a solution to many ills suffered bu humanity.Jews and Muslims co-existed in Palestine for an even longer period.
USA under G.Bush was fuelled by religion and greed (axis of evil) in attacking Iraq, Saddam could not be made a better ruler by religion, so what is all the fuss with religion be it Islam or Christianity making the lives of people better?
==================================
Saddam was removed for oil.It had nothing to do with religion.This is the danger of how you deal with things.You make judgment calls based on limited information and this is where you make mistakes.There is always a bigger picture.
Nothing all is just a pipe dream based on Middle easterners claiming they were given revelation, others been the Messiah and others claiming they are the chosen nations all this not on. Because non of these religions made life better, instead we Africans were taken as slaves and forced to convert by both Islam and Christainity,ntoday we have Arabs occupying Egypt,Tunisia, Mali, Sudan, Morocco,Mauritania,Chad and Lybia instead of Africans, they maimed Africans and sold most as slaves, the few remaining there are subjugated it does not matter even if they are Moslems they are treated as inferior .
===============================
There is truth in religion.There is a purpose religion serves.It not as simple as you making it out to be.If you want to talk about slavery, start with the African chiefs who were SELLING their brethen to Portugeese first.Thats where the slave thing started.Nobody came here to took Africans by force, people came here to BUY slaves from chiefs.Read your history carefully.Why are you overlooking the role your chiefs played?
Christianity did the same to us.bwhat was the use of Muhammed receiving the prophecy went it never helped the destitute infidels who had to subjugated until they pay tax later on lost their land, where was the All Merciful Allah?
================================
This is not correct.Muslims bought African slaves who were Muslims, Bilaal from Abyssinia is a good example.The lady that brought the Prophet up Umm Khulthum was an African woman.She took care of him and looked after him and he referred to her as 'my mother'. Allah is Merciful to those that take Him as their Lord.Those who reject and dont accept Him, what difference is the Mercy of Allah making to them.They dont recognise Him anyway.
I do not purchase what you guys are giving us, religion is hipocracybat it's best, the real culprit in our misery.
============================
Again that is an over simplification of things.
Report Abuse Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Your argument is that skirmishes have little to do with religion . I was giving you the evidence that religion have more to do with skirmishes that you thought, that is why I quoted Judaism, Christainity !Hinduism and Islam. The stopping of attacking caravans happened too late for the innocent people who were ki#lled. And if Allah was really mercifully he wouldn't have let his prophet, a holy man k#ill people and loot their belongings including wi#ves and children in the first place, just because they hold a different religious view. That was unspeakable it is similar to what some of our Caucasian countrymen saying to us stop holding on apartheid crimes they are long gone. Muhammed and his band of religious people committed injustices to others, if there is h#ell as the Koran preaches why then they did wait the creators of these infidels to k#ill them himself instead of doing that themselves, this is travesty at its best Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
Islam as a religion has produced so many murders*** under the many names which are all fighting a certain kind of jihad but they always tend to attack innocent civilians,in many countries where Islam is majority Christian are bombed and massacred** just for being christians.i therfore trully believe that Islam is anti-Christ and has nothing to do with God Jehova but everything to do with god Lucifer Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
This is a joke you qoute one woman maybe ten or hundred, how many African people suffered under the banner of Kafir or infidels. You are over simplifying yourself, evenness during the apartheid times the Africans who were taken care of by South African caucasians, eg Donald Woods made sure that the story of Biko gets justice outside the country, Hellen Zille made sure that she accompany Nontsikelelo Biko as her madam to the morgue and took pictures of my hero. But that does not I repeat that does not mean that The marjority of the SA caucasians did not treated us badly, sh#ot at our uncles and aunts, arrested our parents. You cannot tell me about a lucky African woman and try to down play the bloo#d of Africans in the hands of your religion since Muhammed 's epoch., you can cheat others not those who knows their history. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
That is real male chauvinism, what would happen if the woman gets an equal share? Women for years have been looking after the family, why should a male be given more to look after a woman, that is male chauvinist, and never ever say I do not understand, I understand alright it I didn't I would have agreed with male chauvinism of Quran /Koran, we women we are not disabled we can take care of ourselves, we're kept into lower positions by you males for centuries and we were told lies that we cannot take care of ourselves, Shaka was raised by a single woman Nandi after Senzangakhona chased them away from his kraal even the relatives of Nandi did not want her back, we had heroines like Mkabayi ka Jama and Manthatise of Lesotho and Joan of Arc in France, I detest when a civilized man like you still perpertuate male chauvinism with scriptures thta devalue women's gains.
=================================
Im just explaining to you the consequence and the social order when the Qur'an was revealed.All the feminist posturing is not going to change anything really.You telling me here now in the 21st century that you wouldnt agree with the situation 1500 years ago?Really now.Does that make sense to you?By the way its not true that Nandi raised Shaka alone, this is an overstatement.Shake moved from one clan to the next. there was a system and social order that enabled him to grow.Im not perpetuating anything, Im just explaining life THEN. It doesnt help to posture, if you making an argument that the social setup when the Qur'an was revealed is different now and has evolved to a position where females not only work but earn more than man.To then make an argument that re-interpretation of these laws is necessary in accordance with what prevails now.I can go along with that argument because it deals with the merit of the situation.This posturing is really not doing anything.
We are never going back there only those women who still kept in religious yolk will satisfy you're religious male ego, our constitution is not purchasing all that we're free. Now and we will keep making those gains, poor women with veils I pity them, they take that nonsense. I understand female oppression because I am a female and therefore I do understand scripture s that perpertuate inequalities amongst sex#es
============================
I think you missed the point of the veil completely.Its not about opression.If it was oppressive, why would Western woman, who accept Islam, CHOOSE to wear a veil.Nobody is forcing woman to wear a veil.This is the misconception you have.I dont know who appointed you to be the spokeperson of Muslim woman. They dont these things voluntarily.Why should it matter to you? You dont understand a thing.
Solm
You can doctor your Koran, not history Muhammed highly involved in the mU#rdering and enslavement of African. Read the Timbuktu history, the first African library that was built in African and trace down to the occupation of Moslems in the north, its all about slavery and murder of Africans. Do you think all these Moslems that occupied the north of Africa came peacefully and what happened to the majority of Africans over there, I wish you would have visited Sudan in the beginning of The 2000 and see how African Sudanese Moslems were treated I'm Khartoum, most Africans working in Khaurtom had to convert but still the bla#ck Arabs who happen to be Moslems treated them like dirt. You are not going to getaway with doctoriing your religious flawa Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Nyongoyamavenda
Islam as a religion has produced so many murders*** under the many names which are all fighting a certain kind of jihad but they always tend to attack innocent civilians,in many countries where Islam is majority Christian are bombed and massacred** just for being christians.i therfore trully believe that Islam is anti-Christ and has nothing to do with God Jehova but everything to do with god Lucifer
================
If body counts are the way of determining the anti-Christ then we muslims are the last in that ranking.Just in WW2 alone, over 60 million people died.Im not counting WW1, the wars before that.I dont think you want to go down that road buddy. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
That what they said when we were struggling for our emancipation, swart mense will never be free. Women were running in Olympics with burkas or half of it, the olympic threatened male chauvinist like you to surrender. Even if it our male chauvinism does not change, it won't justify the male chauvinism of Islam against women who are no threat at all as the male spices is the one that causing wars, and creating false lies that God gave them the revelation and women should used as their trophies Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
You can doctor your Koran, not history Muhammed highly involved in the mU#rdering and enslavement of African. Read the Timbuktu history, the first African library that was built in African and trace down to the occupation of Moslems in the north, its all about slavery and murder of Africans. Do you think all these Moslems that occupied the north of Africa came peacefully and what happened to the majority of Africans over there, I wish you would have visited Sudan in the beginning of The 2000 and see how African Sudanese Moslems were treated I'm Khartoum, most Africans working in Khaurtom had to convert but still the bla#ck Arabs who happen to be Moslems treated them like dirt. You are not going to getaway with doctoriing your religious flawa
==================
Im not doctoring anytihng here.Im stating historical facts.Slavery was started by African chiefs selling their brethren to anybody with money.Why are you not commenting on that?Why are you not taking responsibility for that?You just want to keep blaming the whole world.........go ahead keep blaming and see where it gets you.Muslims didnt start slavery.Slavery was long there when Islam came.I dont know why you want to force the issue like it was Islam that started slavery.Look into yourself first before pointing fingers.You want to hold Islam accountable now for slavery that was even there at the time of Jesus, Moses, Joseph, Abraham.Dont take chances now.You want to pin slavery one Islam.No no no sorry. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Good, very good now.You separating issues and mentioning one thing at the time.You doing much better now.I need to get ready to break my fast in 30 mins or so.Im going to ask you to release me soon.
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It doesn't justify your ki# llings and your God just like the Christian God saw nothing wronng with your vicious acts Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
You throwing everything in one go now.Show me how does Islam reduce woman into properties.Please show me.Dont tell me about Indian culture or Arab culture.Tell me how ISLAM reduce woman into property.Show me where Islam perpertuate slavery?Dont tell me Arabs do this and that, tell me how Islam does that.As for robbing caravans, really now that stooping very low.I dont know how you studied Islam really, Im begining to doubt you know anything here.The raiding of caravans was done because Muslims were is a state of war with the Quraish. It was practice then and still is now, countries at war do raid the enemy camp and loot it.Have you heard the saying ' to the voctor belongs the spoils'? Where do you think its coming from?What do you think it means?
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That is how un peaceful your religion, if you were directed by a merciful God you wouldn't attack caravans that had no soldiers. If you fight witha nation you do not attack civilians delibaretely , your God did not know that, people today are clever than your God, should they delibaretely attack peaceful civilians they are taken to the Hague Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
That what they said when we were struggling for our emancipation, swart mense will never be free.
==============================
You think you the only one who struggled? Anyway what does being free mean when you have a corrupt government who only promises and cant deliever?You have service delivery protests as we speak, 18 years after freedom.What has that brought?
Women were running in Olympics with burkas or half of it, the olympic threatened male chauvinist like you to surrender. Even if it our male chauvinism does not change, it won't justify the male chauvinism of Islam against women who are no threat at all as the male spices is the one that causing wars, and creating false lies that God gave them the revelation and women should used as their trophies
=====================
You just have beef with Islam really. You want to hold Islam accountable for every single thing that you think is wrong.I cant help you in that sickness. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
It does not matter who started it the Cheifs did not force the Moslems to purchase slaves it was their greed and cruelty. Do you want to tell me that if I sell you child you are going to purchase it just because that was not initiated by you? That argument won't stand in the court of law. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
I hold Islam for it responsible for and I have stated it clearly and I did not leave any stone unturned, I held all the Monotheist religion accountable for their bits I even includes Hinduism, Iam the one who qouted the Crusade wars that was started by the church, I am the one who qouted Sarajevo Kosovo which was fuelled by Christians don't try and pull hare on the hat for me. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
That is how un peaceful your religion, if you were directed by a merciful God you wouldn't attack caravans that had no soldiers. If you fight witha nation you do not attack civilians delibaretely , your God did not know that, people today are clever than your God, should they delibaretely attack peaceful civilians they are taken to the Hague
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Who was atacking civilians? Who said caravans were not guarded? Who was fighting a nation and attacked civilians deliberately?What are you going on about? Who is clever than God? You?LOL.You cant breathe, move, write this nonsense you spewing if its wasnt for Him.What makes you think you clever than God?You delusional now.This Hague you going on about, did George Bush go there for attacking Iraq and killing over 6 million poeple? Did Tony Blair go there? In case you havent notices, this Hague is there to arrest African leaders and all those non-Western countries.Dont come tell me about your rubbish Hague here that select the people it prosecutes.Tell me ONE Western leader that was ever brought to your lauded Hague for killing people.Just ONE! You need to wake up honestly. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
I am free with my corrupt government, at least we start some where, you are just worse than me with your chauvinst religion you are not free you are a slave of an Arabic ideology, and you do not know that. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
What I like about my nonsense it struck the nerve you puffing with anger , because I do not let you getaway with religious lies , I do not need to any better since I managed to be understood by you, the truth hurts. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Caravans were belonged to traders, soldiers were sent later to protect the trade route after you attacked them, that is the fact. That another nonsense you have to understand Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
It does not matter who started it the Cheifs did not force the Moslems to purchase slaves it was their greed and cruelty. Do you want to tell me that if I sell you child you are going to purchase it just because that was not initiated by you? That argument won't stand in the court of law.
=======================
Which Muslims purchased African slaves.Please name them for me. It doesnt matter that Chiefs profited from slavery? Woohhoo Im glad you not a judge.In African, the Protugeese started the slave trading, not Muslims.Muslims came to seek shelter in Abyssinia from persecution, NOT to enslave.There is nothing you getting right.Every information you have is not factual.You want to hold anyone accountable for slavery?Start with your chiefs, the Portugeese, the French, Spanish, English, Americans.Even Arabs pre-Islam never traded in slavery to the extent these countries did.Stop obssessing with Muslims who never traded not bought Africans to enslave.Geez.Get you head straight and drop the blinds. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Which chief sold slaves please name him Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
I am free with my corrupt government, at least we start some where, you are just worse than me with your chauvinst religion you are not free you are a slave of an Arabic ideology, and you do not know that.
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You free to do what? Im only a slave of my Creator that I serve as best as I can.
Solm
What I like about my nonsense it struck the nerve you puffing with anger , because I do not let you getaway with religious lies , I do not need to any better since I managed to be understood by you, the truth hurts.
===============
The religious lies are in your mind.Im not angry. Im just stunned and how ignorant you are and yet you claim to know.Everything you have said was based on incomplete information or just lies.Now you claim to be clever than God! Remember this statement, you will account for it.Just take it back.You know zip about the truth, nada. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Do not turn this around, you on the other end you are justifying that it was okay for slaves to be sold to Moslem. my point is not justifying slaves been sold by Africans it to tell you that Islam claims to belonging to merciful God where was that mercy when they purchasing the slave? It does matter simply means that it doesn't justify them purchasing slave from abn African or Caucasian they werevreligious why did they religion not prevent them from committing such an sin? Where we're their religios paradisic morals when they were purchasing slaves? You can explain that because you studied for four years, you must have the answer Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Caravans were belonged to traders, soldiers were sent later to protect the trade route after you attacked them, that is the fact. That another nonsense you have to understand
=================
I think I said enough on this point.Its pointless debating with someone who has selective amnesia. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You have a big problem, you Koran is full of slaves and how they should be treated and your try and deny that Islam worshippers were trading on slaves including AFrican slaves , who is igonarant me or the person who studied Koran for Four years and yet missed the slavery that is promoted in it? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Solm
Which chief sold slaves please name him
=======================
I must name him.Im just a slave to the Arab ideology what do I know?You the clever one who knows everything remember? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You are not debating you are denying your own Moslem and African history if you are an African. You claim to have studied for four years yet you do not know that Moslems owned both African and Arabic slaves, that is not. A debate but a duck and dive. Thanks anyway, I never met a Moslem who denies that They once owned African slaves, you are the first. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
I hold Islam for it responsible for and I have stated it clearly and I did not leave any stone unturned, I held all the Monotheist religion accountable for their bits I even includes Hinduism, Iam the one who qouted the Crusade wars that was started by the church, I am the one who qouted Sarajevo Kosovo which was fuelled by Christians don't try and pull hare on the hat for me.
=========================
How can you hold Islam responsible when it BOUGHT slaves to free them?What sense does that make?Im going to stop soon, this is not getting anywhere really.I was hoping for some intelligent debate from you but the standard of this discussion of getting lower and lower.Im going to stop soon. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
A a Moslem who owned an Africam slave
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Remember that I am not free and I am ruled by a corrupt government, how can you expect me to name a Moslem/s who owned an African slave? Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
You have a big problem, you Koran is full of slaves and how they should be treated and your try and deny that Islam worshippers were trading on slaves including AFrican slaves , who is igonarant me or the person who studied Koran for Four years and yet missed the slavery that is promoted in it?
===================
I didnt miss anything.Where did Muslims trade in slaves?The Prophet didnt own any slaves, his companions didnt own any slaves.They actually spent money buying to free slaves.You cant separate facts from fiction.Muslims NEVER traded in slaves, NEVER.The problem is in your head. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Your understanding of freedom is flawed, all you do you just doctoring and denying, you know very well what you did with African slaves. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
You are not debating you are denying your own Moslem and African history if you are an African. You claim to have studied for four years yet you do not know that Moslems owned both African and Arabic slaves, that is not. A debate but a duck and dive. Thanks anyway, I never met a Moslem who denies that They once owned African slaves, you are the first.
===================
Arabs owned and traded in African slaves, not Muslims.Of course Im African, why would I bother studying the history of slavery and knowing exactly who did what when if it doesnt bother me.I never claimed to have studied for 4 years.I was telling you that sciences of the Qur'an takes 4 years to study.Go back up and read what I said.You cant remember what took place few hours ago yet you want to talk about slavery that happened over a thousand years ago.Get your facts right before opening you mouth.You not doing your self any good parading as knowledgeable when all you have is misinformation.It might with with others but I know my stuff.I can separate wheat from the chuff. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
How could it can anywhere when all you do is to deny everything, nothing that you acknowledge as the truth if you like I will post you scriptures in the Quran that refutes your claim that Moslem bought slave s in order to free them. Nothing you are saying really adds up, it a good idea that we just quit, to you an intelligent debate is to deny and the opposition agree with you. That is not a debate, in a debate you either concur or agree to disagree, I for one agree to disagree. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Your understanding of freedom is flawed, all you do you just doctoring and denying, you know very well what you did with African slaves.
======================
Your white baas tells you to look into Islam for slavery and forget what he did himself and you doing just that.Yet you telling me you free.LOL.Get a grip on reality and stop dreaming.I know what Islam is responsible for and I know what its not responsible for.Im not going to keep silent when you paddling lies about Islam trading in slavery.Go back to your history books and start all over again studying slavery.You havent even scratched the surface.While you at it dont forget your baas, look into him too. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
How could it can anywhere when all you do is to deny everything, nothing that you acknowledge as the truth if you like I will post you scriptures in the Quran that refutes your claim that Moslem bought slave s in order to free them. Nothing you are saying really adds up, it a good idea that we just quit, to you an intelligent debate is to deny and the opposition agree with you. That is not a debate, in a debate you either concur or agree to disagree, I for one agree to disagree.
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Im denying the lies you attribute to Islam.You dont have to look into the Qur'an to know how Muslims dealt with slavery, there are plenty examples in Muslim history.Nothing I say add up?LOL.Good night Mzabalazo, qhubeka uzabalaze uzofika phambili. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Here is my protest you:
I raised the Shi'a and Sunni skirmishes you down played as some new,I told you that they happened when Mohammed's relative was in charge (imam ) you just avoided that, I did not call you names
I raised the discrimination of women you quickly told me that with my feminist teher is nothing I can do to change that, this was in a way concurring that there unfair treatment of women
You later tried to dictor that verse on inheritance I did not agree with you that we women need to be taken care by men, you tried to justify that in the olden day this scripture was relevant I refuted that because women were never disabled to take care of themselves and their families including their husbands
Now you not only disagreeing with me only, you also disagree with the Koran that Moslems did not own slaves, infant I qouted a scripture not long ago that talks about the ornament and veil, it even stipulates that the woman can unveil infront of her slaves, which slave if Moslem did not own slaves? That my dear is a joke of the year, after that you accuse me of not debating in good faith Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
This is a joke you qoute one woman maybe ten or hundred, how many African people suffered under the banner of Kafir or infidels. You are over simplifying yourself, evenness during the apartheid times the Africans who were taken care of by South African caucasians, eg Donald Woods made sure that the story of Biko gets justice outside the country, Hellen Zille made sure that she accompany Nontsikelelo Biko as her madam to the morgue and took pictures of my hero. But that does not I repeat that does not mean that The marjority of the SA caucasians did not treated us badly, sh#ot at our uncles and aunts, arrested our parents. You cannot tell me about a lucky African woman and try to down play the bloo#d of Africans in the hands of your religion since Muhammed 's epoch., you can cheat others not those who knows their history
============
The point I was making was that the Prophet didnt have racial issues.Nowhere was he ever racist to Africans, in fact he was over protective of them to the annoyance of other companions.But you havent studied anything really.I feel like Im talkking to myself.The Prophet has no African blood in his hands. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You said Arabs owned slaves not Moslems how then is denying lies on Islam when you people owned slaves, how is that, very very slickly sharp, take care. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Back to square one, I was not talking about Muhammed , I was talking about the Moslems owning slaves, his over protectiveness did not prevent Moslem from owning slaves that then is no relevant and even if it was then his angel gave him rule and orders pertaining slaves not freeing them, you are the one who jumped a gun. Moslems owning slaves , I was not disagreeging with you on how Mohammed treated slaves especially African slaves, you have a tendency of raising an issue which is not relevant to the issue at hand, you never showed how Muhammed's tendency changed the attitude of Moslemsntowards slaves, African slaves in particular instead you wer saying Moslems never owned slaves.
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Here is my protest you:
I raised the Shi'a and Sunni skirmishes you down played as some new,I told you that they happened when Mohammed's relative was in charge (imam ) you just avoided that, I did not call you names
==================
This is also not correct.The Shia Sunni issue happened after the Prophet passed away, it was a leadership skirmish.Your information is incorrect.
I raised the discrimination of women you quickly told me that with my feminist teher is nothing I can do to change that, this was in a way concurring that there unfair treatment of women
===========================
I said there is nothing you can do to change the biological fact that man and woman are not the same.This is what I said.Its not even 12 hours you already changing things.
You later tried to dictor that verse on inheritance I did not agree with you that we women need to be taken care by men, you tried to justify that in the olden day this scripture was relevant I refuted that because women were never disabled to take care of themselves and their families including their husbands
===============
I was explainng the context and social order when that verse was revealed.I dodnt doctor anything.
Now you not only disagreeing with me only, you also disagree with the Koran that Moslems did not own slaves, infant I qouted a scripture not long ago that talks about the ornament and veil, it even stipulates that the woman can unveil infront of her slaves, which slave if Moslem did not own slaves? That my dear is a joke of the year, after that you accuse me of not debating in good faith
Muslims never TRADED in slaves, meaning they didnt buy and sell slaves like Jews did.The slaves you talking about, are slaves which they owned BEFORE Islam that they subsequently FREED.The Qur'an states very clearly that oppression is worse than death.If you read the whole scripture instead of hand-picking verses that goes along with your belief on what Islam is, you would have know that.How Islam dealt with vices was gradual, for example slavery, it started off by granting more rights to slaves and finally outlawing it as an abhomination.The same with drinking, some compnaions drank a lot and the Qur'an first told them not to come for prayers drunk, the next step the Qur'an outlawed drinking all together.Therefore there are verses that abrogate others.This is one of the science you need to know before making interpretation of Qur'an. Report Abuse
Aug 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Back to square one, I was not talking about Muhammed , I was talking about the Moslems owning slaves, his over protectiveness did not prevent Moslem from owning slaves that then is no relevant and even if it was then his angel gave him rule and orders pertaining slaves not freeing them, you are the one who jumped a gun. Moslems owning slaves , I was not disagreeging with you on how Mohammed treated slaves especially African slaves, you have a tendency of raising an issue which is not relevant to the issue at hand, you never showed how Muhammed's tendency changed the attitude of Moslemsntowards slaves, African slaves in particular instead you wer saying Moslems never owned slaves.
=====================
After the Qur'an shunned slavery, there were no slaves owned by Muslims.You pick topics that you have no knowledge of except a verse or two.Let me give you a tip, when you choosing a subject like slavery in the Qur'an.I dont know which translation you using, if you using Yusuf Ali's, at the back he wrote topics diecussed in the Qur'an.You flip at the back and look for the subject slavery.He lists ALL verses pertaining to slavery.Go over those verses to find out what the finality is on slavery in the Qur'an.Thats the least you can do.Cheers Report Abuse
Aug 14, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Now I am tired with your lies check this and stop lying,:
Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so? If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives. Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also? I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many. Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter.
Praise be to Allaah.
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married.
A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage.
This is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and this was done by the Prophets. Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) took Haajar as a concubine and she bore him Ismaa’eel (may peace be upon them all).
Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
[al-Nisa’ 4:3]
What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave women whom you own.
And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”
[al-Ahzaab 33:50]
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.
But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-31]
Al-Tabari said:
Allaah says, “And those who guard their chastity” i.e., protect their private parts from doing everything that Allaah has forbidden, but they are not to blame if they do not guard their chastity from their wives or from the female slaves whom their rights hands possess.
Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84
Ibn Katheer said:
Taking a concubine as well as a wife is permissible according to the law of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him). Ibraaheem did that with Haajar, when he took her as a concubine when he was married to Saarah.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/383
And Ibn Katheer also said:
The phrase “and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you” [al-Ahzaab 33:50] means, it is permissible for you take concubines from among those whom you seized as war booty. He took possession of Safiyyah and Juwayriyah and he freed them and married them; he took possession of Rayhaanah bint Sham’oon al-Nadariyyah and Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibraaheem (peace be upon them both), and they were among his concubines, may Allaah be pleased with them both.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/500
The scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible.
Ibn Qudaamah said:
There is no dispute (among the scholars) that it is permissible to take concubines and to have intercourse with one's slave woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]
Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah was the umm walad (a slave woman who bore her master a child) of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and she was the mother of Ibraaheem, the son of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), of whom he said, “Her son set her free.” Haajar, the mother of Isma’eel (peace be upon him), was the concubine of Ibraaheem the close friend (khaleel) of the Most Merciful (peace be upon him). ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) had a number of slave women who bore him children, to each of whom he left four hundred in his will. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) had slave women who bore him children, as did many of the Sahaabah. ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn, al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad and Saalim ibn ‘Abd-Allaah were all born from slave mothers
Al-Mughni, 10/441
Al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]
The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (women slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses.
Al-Umm, 5/43.
The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
Solm
How can scholars say it permissible to have an intercourse with a slave woman if Islam banished slavery, this are interpretations of scholar that you so much referring too. Stop lying Report Abuse
Aug 14, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Now I am tired with your lies check this and stop lying,:
==============
Good day to you too Mzabalazo
Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so? If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives. Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also?
==============================
You need to understand the principle of niskh or abrogation to understand what you talking about.Abrogation means initial verses were overidden or cancelled by later ones.About female slaves in Arabia.Arabs had very filthy sexual practices before Islam, they used to glorify two things, sexual relattions and wine.These two were regarded as the ultimate pleasures a man can have.A good fine wine and a good woman used to be the epitome of their satisfaction.They had other filthy practices that you dont need to know.lol.So when Muslims moved from Makkah to Medina, many new Muslims embraced Islam.They brought along these pre-Islamic habits.Another thing is that female slaves were there to provide Arab males with pleasures and the males had no responsibility towards the females.So when these new converts became Muslim, Islam had to deal with their situation.Islam has very practical approach to problems.So it dealt with the female slavery relations as it was initially.As the time went on, Islam started granting slaves rights and 'humanising'' them for a lack of a better word.It made their owners directly responsible for them, they had to feed and cloth them and take caer of them.The next thing slaves were allowed to have businesses of their own.From those businesses verses came stating that should a slave wish to buy her freedom (even in instalments) their owners shouldnt refuse them.So capable slaves worked and paid for their freedom in instalments.This was one way Islam stipulated of getting rid of slavery.Another way was to use the freeing of slaves as punishment for certain offences.So if I did a wrong, the way for me of pating for that wrong was to free a slave.Another way was to state that owning slaves is not part of righteousness.So people had to free slaves in their quest to be righteous and closer to God Almighty.These are different way of how Islam got rid of slavery.I can give you full references if you want of the verses Im talking about.So verses that regulated relations between female slaves and their owners at the begining were abrogated by verses giving slaves rights, these were abrogated by later ones about righteousness.So you need to know which verses applied which period.This is the purpose of the science of naskh or abrogation.Im sorry I squezzed your answer like this, I just dont have the time to explain this in detail.
I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many. Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter.
================================
Ali was one of the poor companions of the Prophet, he was marrieds to the Prophet's daughter Fatima.She used to complain to the Prophet of the workload in her house and the Prophet used to tell her to have patience.Ali couldnt afford buying slaves, let alone feeding them.They used to just make it with livelihood.Its nonsense that he had 17 slaves. The same with Umar, the second leader of Muslims.He didnt have slaves.The compoanions of the Prophet that left with him from Makkah to Medina, they didnt have the luxury of owning slaves.They had it really tough.
Praise be to Allaah.
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married.
A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage.
This is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and this was done by the Prophets. Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) took Haajar as a concubine and she bore him Ismaa’eel (may peace be upon them all).
Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.
=======================
Where did you get this from?
And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”
==================
This is about the laws of marriage.What is your problem with this?
Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84
Ibn Katheer said:
Taking a concubine as well as a wife is permissible according to the law of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him). Ibraaheem did that with Haajar, when he took her as a concubine when he was married to Saarah.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/383
And Ibn Katheer also said:
The phrase “and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you” [al-Ahzaab 33:50] means, it is permissible for you take concubines from among those whom you seized as war booty. He took possession of Safiyyah and Juwayriyah and he freed them and married them; he took possession of Rayhaanah bint Sham’oon al-Nadariyyah and Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibraaheem (peace be upon them both), and they were among his concubines, may Allaah be pleased with them both.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/500
The scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible.
Ibn Qudaamah said:
There is no dispute (among the scholars) that it is permissible to take concubines and to have intercourse with one's slave woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”
=========================
Which book of ibn Kathir are you using here?
Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah was the umm walad (a slave woman who bore her master a child) of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and she was the mother of Ibraaheem, the son of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), of whom he said, “Her son set her free.” Haajar, the mother of Isma’eel (peace be upon him), was the concubine of Ibraaheem the close friend (khaleel) of the Most Merciful (peace be upon him). ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) had a number of slave women who bore him children, to each of whom he left four hundred in his will. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) had slave women who bore him children, as did many of the Sahaabah. ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn, al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad and Saalim ibn ‘Abd-Allaah were all born from slave mothers
Al-Mughni, 10/441
Al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]
The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (women slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses.
Al-Umm, 5/43.
The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
And Allaah knows best.
========================
Where did you get all this?
AUG 13, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Back to square one, I was not talking about Muhammed , I was talking about the Moslems owning slaves, his over protectiveness did not prevent Moslem from owning slaves that then is no relevant and even if it was then his angel gave him rule and orders pertaining slaves not freeing them, you are the one who jumped a gun. Moslems owning slaves , I was not disagreeging with you on how Mohammed treated slaves especially African slaves, you have a tendency of raising an issue which is not relevant to the issue at hand, you never showed how Muhammed's tendency changed the attitude of Moslemsntowards slaves, African slaves in particular instead you wer saying Moslems never owned slaves.
=====================
After the Qur'an shunned slavery, there were no slaves owned by Muslims.You pick topics that you have no knowledge of except a verse or two.Let me give you a tip, when you choosing a subject like slavery in the Qur'an.I dont know which translation you using, if you using Yusuf Ali's, at the back he wrote topics diecussed in the Qur'an.You flip at the back and look for the subject slavery.He lists ALL verses pertaining to slavery.Go over those verses to find out what the finality is on slavery in the Qur'an.Thats the least you can do.Cheers
//////////::::::::::///////////::::::::::::::://////////::::::::::::://///////
This is a reply to this post where you totally claimed that Moslem were setting slaves free they were no longer keeping slaves. What this article from a person who has studied The Quran. The other lie that you have told is that Moslem were not taking infidel slaves, when in fact ithe Quran state it clearly that you cannot have a fellow Moslem as a slave, thus some slaves submitted and became Moslems and they were freed from slavery as it demanded In Quran .
That is why I find you very tricky because you cannot be ignorant of that scriptural instruction , not with the knowledge of Islam you have.
The information is copied and pasted as you know, this is a Q&A from a Moslem.
The Shi'a and the Sunni issue , you said it was not religious but political, but you know that it is just a propaganda, because this is a religious issue, I will not go any further unless if you want me to copy and paste the info, which I am glad to. The split is basically about one faction claiming that a Moslem leader should be the relative of the Prophet where as the other saying it doesn't necessary have to be a relatiive of the Prophet but anyone qualified enough to meet the necessary criteria can be a leader. This is how the two faction split up and that is not political.
Misinformation indeed. Report Abuse
Aug 15, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Can you please post us an information that says Islam forbade slavery as you claim, meanwhile I will post another evidence that Moslem were encouraged to own slaves by the Quran:
The Qur'an:
Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners. Others are restrained to four wives, but may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:
Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (70:29-30).
Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.
Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."
Qur'an (24:32) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.
Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's).
Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored).
Solm
You claim that the Portugese were the first slaves traders and guess what history says otherwise, check this:
The Role of Islam in African Slavery
Part 1 – Obtaining slaves on the African continent
By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide
See More About:islam and african slaveryafrican slaverytrans-saharan slave tradeislam in africa
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Slavery has been rife throughout all of ancient history. Most, if not all, ancient civilizations practiced this institution and it is described (and defended) in early writings of the Sumerians, Babylonians, and Egyptians. It was also practiced by early societies in central America and Africa. (See Bernard Lewis's work Race and Slavery in the Middle East1 for a detailed chapter of the origins and practices of slavery.)
The Qur'an prescribes a humanitarian approach to slavery -- free men could not be enslaved, and those faithful to foreign religions could live as protected persons, dhimmis, under Muslim rule (as long as they maintained payment of taxes called Kharaj and Jizya). However, the spread of the Islamic Empire resulted in a much harsher interpretation of the law. For example, if a dhimmis was unable to pay the taxes they could be enslaved, and people from outside the borders of the Islamic Empire were considered an acceptable source of slaves.
Although the law required owners to treat slaves well and provide medical treatment, a slave had no right to be heard in court (testimony was forbidden by slaves), had no right to property, could marry only with permission of their owner, and was considered to be a chattel, that is the (moveable) property, of the slave owner. Conversion to Islam did not automatically give a slave freedom nor did it confer freedom to their children. Whilst highly educated slaves and those in the military did win their freedom, those used for basic duties rarely achieved freedom. In addition, the recorded mortality rate was high -- this was still significant even as late as the nineteenth century and was remarked upon by western travelers in North Africa and Egypt.
Slaves were obtained through conquest, tribute from vassal states (in the first such treaty, Nubia was required to provide hundreds of male and female slaves), offspring (children of slaves were also slaves, but since many slaves were castrated this was not as common as it had been in the Roman empire), and purchase. The latter method provided the majority of slaves, and at the borders of the Islamic Empire vast number of new slaves were castrated ready for sale (Islamic law did not allow mutilation of slaves, so it was done before they crossed the border). The majority of these slaves came from Europe and Africa -- there were always enterprising locals ready to kidnap or capture their fellow countrymen.
Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa.
By the time of the Ottoman Empire, the majority of slaves were obtained by raiding in Africa. Russian expansion had put an end to the source of "exceptionally beautiful" female and "brave" male slaves from the Caucasians -- the women were highly prised in the harem, the men in the military. The great trade networks across north Africa were as much to do with the safe transportation of slaves as other goods. An analysis of prices at various slave markets shows that eunuchs fetched higher prices than other males, encouraging the castration of slaves before export.
Documentation suggests that slaves throughout Islamic world were mainly used for menial domestic and commercial purposes. Eunuchs were especially prised for bodyguards and confidential servants; women as concubines and menials. A Muslim slave owner was entitled by law to use slaves for sexual pleasure.
As primary source material becomes available to Western scholars, the bias towards urban slaves is being questioned. Records also show that thousands of slaves were used in gangs for agriculture and mining. Large landowners and rulers used thousands of such slaves, usually in dire conditions: "of the Saharan salt mines it is said that no slave lived there for more than five years. Report Abuse
Aug 15, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
This is a reply to this post where you totally claimed that Moslem were setting slaves free they were no longer keeping slaves. What this article from a person who has studied The Quran. The other lie that you have told is that Moslem were not taking infidel slaves, when in fact ithe Quran state it clearly that you cannot have a fellow Moslem as a slave, thus some slaves submitted and became Moslems and they were freed from slavery as it demanded In Quran .
=======================
I dont think its fair for you to tell me Im speaking a lie when you havent given me a chance to explain myself.Even after I have explained things to you, you still dont accept it because you already convicted Islam in your mind to many crimes.So when you reading about Islam you already looking for info that will justify your existing conviction of Islam, anything else you dont accept you simply dismiss it as a lie.This is the problem with you.You not really objective here, you seriously compromised.This alone is reason enough for me to drop this conversation and stop entertaining someone who already has a made up mind about Islam.But because Im obliged by my religion, as I have come to be aware of your slander of Islam, I have to respond because if I keep silent and let you say all these things on issues you obviously know little about, I would be accountable as much as you are for not doing anything.This is the reason really why Im doing this.Otherwise I dont really have to put up with your constantly calling me a liar.I really dont.
Ok now that I have cleared that part, lets get to what you raised.Do you know why I explained the science of abrogation to you?Did you read that part of my reply or you just didnt get it?I thought I made that part very clear but I can see that you still struggling understanding it.This could be the reason of your prejudice that you not hearing me.Which makes this difficult because Im not talking to myself here.When you post I read and reply having READ what you posted.Its only fair to expect the same from you.Dont make me repeat the same thing over and over again, you not the slow type.You understand things very well, its just your prejudice that clouds your mind ALL the time.The reason why I explained at large to you the point of abrogation is so you know the sequence of events relating to a particular issue in the Qur'an.Like slavery for example, that makes you very hot under the collar.I explained to you that as Islam was spreading in Arabia, people who own slaves were coming into Islam in numbers.So Islam had to respond to the issue of slavery.It did so systematically.First we have verses that dealt with slavery as it was then.These are the verses you quoting a lot to strengthen your prejudice.The mistake you making is that you only looking at the first phase and ignore what follows next.This is precisely why studying the sciences of exegesis of the Qur'an is key here.You cant make a ruling based on these 'first phase' verses as the dealing with slavery issue was not finalised yet by the Qur'an.It was just the begining of the phasing out process of slavery and many other issues facing Muslims at that time.Another point worth mentioning here is that the Qur'an was dealing with an ALREADY existing phenomenon of slavery, it DIDNT create slavery.This is important to understand.The issue of slavery goes back to Abraham's time.The Western trick, together with you, is to use the verses where slavery was INTRODUCED within Islam to make an impression that its Islam that brought about slavery and everything was fine before Islam.This is nonsensical.If anything Islam didnt shy away from the issue of slavery, it dealt with it.You can argue whether or not the manner in which Islam dealt with slavery was the best.However thats another discussion altogether.Anyway having to deal with the reality that there were Muslims who owned slaves now.The Qur'an started improving the status of slaves.On the second phase, the Qurán encouraged Muslims to treat their slaves good ( 4:36/ 9:60).This didnt happen before, not only in Arabia but in the whole world at this time where slavery was practiced.This making Muslim slave owners be directly responsible for their slaves was new then.Then we come to verse 24:33, which deals with mukataba and other improvements on the lives of slaves.Mukataba is a contract between a slave master and a slave where the slave buys his freedom in instalments.This was a tremendous boost for slaves.Before a slave could either be released by his owner either by death or sale to another owner.Slaves couldnt work any other work but for their owners.Mukataba changed this, it allowed those slaves who wanted to work for themselves to do so and pay for their freedom in instalments.Even better, this verse alowed the slave owner to loan the slave the money to start a business for the slave to buy his freedom.This was the first way out for the slaves who wanted out.Also in this verse is the command not to force famale slave for sex.This was also groundbreaking on its own.Introduction of consent here was unheard of before.Another way out for slaves was 4:92, which specifically prescribed freeing of slaves for sins or wrongs committed.Also for making deliberate ouths (where you use God's name to swer when you know its not true what you swearing about), a punishment was freeing of a slave.For those who divorced their wives than change their minds thereafter, a punishment for that was freeing a slave before she could accept the apology (58:3).The final phase was shown by 2:177, which stated that it is not righteous to own slaves.This was the final nail in the coffin that got rid of slavery in Islam.Now lets look at this.By allowing slaves different ways in which they could earn their freedom.You could already see where things were going and what the next step was.Granting slaves rights they didnt have, it made it a burden for slave owners to keep slaves.It was just better to free them.The more Islam spread to different areas, the more new converts came in and had to go through the same process in dealing with slaves.This is the Islamic position, the method in which Islam removed slavery.Of course not everybody followed this method.Thats why the Prophet must be used to judge Islam, not anyone else.After his passing away many things happened, a lot of old habits he worked soo hard to remove came back again.However generally with regard to slaves, Muslims adhered to the Qur'anic dictates about slavery.Im not here to defend those Muslims who carried on with habits against the Qur'an.Im here to tell you what the Qur'an says and how the Prophet dealt with slavery issue.So the point of abrogation is that it teaches you which verses applied to which period in the Qur'an.I hope you understood this now.
That is why I find you very tricky because you cannot be ignorant of that scriptural instruction , not with the knowledge of Islam you have.
==========================
Im not ignorant of those scriptural instructions as you put it.Im aware that those scriptural instructions were temporary, which is the point of naskh or abrogation.I hope you can see the point of the sciences now.To cut and paste verses without knowing what was happening, without the whole story, you going to make a mess of things like Al qaeda.Islam is the only religion that acknowldged slavery and dealt with it.It not only freed slaves within Mislims, it forbade Muslims from enslaving free people thereafter.Islam set a precedent at the time when people profited from slavery. Report Abuse
Aug 15, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
The Shi'a and the Sunni issue , you said it was not religious but political, but you know that it is just a propaganda, because this is a religious issue, I will not go any further unless if you want me to copy and paste the info, which I am glad to. The split is basically about one faction claiming that a Moslem leader should be the relative of the Prophet where as the other saying it doesn't necessary have to be a relatiive of the Prophet but anyone qualified enough to meet the necessary criteria can be a leader. This is how the two faction split up and that is not political.
Misinformation indeed.
====================
The discussion on whoever leads Muslims is a political issue.This has nothing to do with aqeedah or belief system.They were not fighting over the Oneness of God, they were not fighting over the pillars of Islam or whether Mohammed was a Prophet or not.They were disagrreing on who should lead Muslims, this is a political issue.Actually its a bit more complicated than how you describe it.There were other issues at play, which I dont mind discussing if thats what you want. Report Abuse
Aug 15, 2012
Skhosho
Solm & Mzabalazo..... your comments are quite interesting indeed
Solm
You claim that the Portugese were the first slaves traders and guess what history says otherwise, check this:
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I told you to look at your source.Bernad Lewis is a Zionist Jew.Muslims and Zionists have issues going back many years.He has an interest in portraying Islam in a bad light.He believes the Judeo-Christian civilisation is superior to Islam, hence his famous book 'clash of civilisations'.He preaches a gospel that Islam is violent, was spread by sword blah blah blah.The usual Zionist claptrap.Im surprise you using him as authority here when Israel helped South Africa oppress blacks and helped the Apartheid giovernment build nuclear weapons.Israel sustained apartheid government for years, giving them technology and weapons they used against black in the township.You should really know who is who in the international zoo and what are they working for. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
I am not into which religion is best or better or worst. I am showing you that even if you can try and deny the fact that the North of Africa was exploited by Moslems. What you can say and I can agree with with you on that: is Islam put humanity in slavery, by allowing slaves to own business, to be treated with care , which is not in any sense freeing or abolishing slavery but making cosmetic changes, whilst Christianity, Judaism, and African slave dealers were more brutal. But that doesn't mean it was good for Quran to allow other humans to be made slaves just because they were infidels. Just as the abolishing of slavery by Christian doesn't exonerate their owning of slavery in the first place. All these religion ie. Judaism, Christainity and Islam should not have even allowed slavery in the first place and all their books mention what is done to another human so casual as if it was natural, Quran is not even suppose to have justified that a slave owner is allowed by Allah to sleep with his woman slave. What you fail to appreciate here is that a person who is enslaved has his or her rights taken away from them, they do not make that choice. Instead you rush to tell us that African Chiefs were trading with slaves, yes that is true, because even before the filthy Arabs and Caucasians came to our shores slavery was practice amongst Africans by Africans, Indians to Indians, Europeans to Europeans and Arabs to Arabs. But what I detest is your religious attitudes, all of you who follow the Abrahamic religion, that you have the truth and you are holy or God is speaking to you , when your practice are as barbaric as everyone else. If God was on you side you wouldn't have enslaved people just like us infidels. You would have completely shunned this barbaric act, you would not even try to better the conditions of slaves but completely altogether not allow it. To you it was very important to quickly stop people from eating pork but difficult to stop people from having slaves. Your Quran says the Moslem slave driver can sleep with his woman slaves. That is in the Quran. If it is wrong to own slaves today Solm it was wrong even then and your prophet was very wrong to even write that a Moslem slave owner was allowed to sleep with a slave woman, who allowed not Allah? Later on the All knowing All Merciful Allah changes His Mind and says it wrong to own slaves, yet He never changes His Mind in eating the pork. I guess you cannot see the logic.
Your attack and defensive strategy do not change the fact that the Koran allows, those verses I have posted for you, that a Moslem slave owner has the right to sleep with their woman slave, that is a Quranic right a religion supports such an atrocity and we should not question that because Christian, Jews and Africans once owned slaves . It quite disturbing to be involved in such a discussion with an African who experienced a first hand, how apartheid was demeaning and no cosmetic change of apartheid were going to give dignity to African, yet you want us to praise Mohammed for a useless cosmetic change in slavery, why did he not stop the chauvinst attitude of his followers towards women slaves, why did he not stop them from sleeping with their woman slaves?
I am not here to take sides with any Abrahamic Dogma and I do not care about your disputes because they are useless and they make the world more complicated than it is, your religious wars and grumbling are not making this word a better place, why should you all care, because you have a place to go to when you die and you spoil the only place we infidel have the earth, with your dogmatic mumbo jumbo
You avoid to comment on the issue of why should a prophet and a holy book allow a Moslem to sleep with their woman slave.
You avoid admitting that slavery was legitimized by the prophet instead you rush to tell me that the prophet did not own a slave, this to me does nt make sense, it's just like saying to me a person has not k#illed personally when they have commanded and allowed their followers to ki#ll. Why should your prophet be found not guilty of slavery just because he never own a slave when he perpertuated the idea and even allowed his followers to sleep withering women slave, when we can find G. Bush guilty for Iraq for perpetuating the mass mu#rder of Iraqis even though he did not personally use a bomb?
Solm this is the hipocracy of religious people that I detest so much, you have double standards when judging issues.
What else do you want me to say, I told you that I cannot concur on this issue, why:
First I posted the verses , you said they cannot be but what amazes me is that those that you can explain you just explain them and you do not refer me to context and the rest
Secondly I post a verses that clearly stipulate that a Moslem man can sleep with his woman slave, you do not explain that, you do not even touch that. Instead you telling me that your prophet never owned slaves. What is a holy book doing to demean another person, by allowing them to be s#ex toys of others just because they own them as slaves, what is holy about that, never mind that later on they no longer own slaves, but why did a holy book, a prophet of Allah allow it in the first place? If it is true indeed that Mohammed was the messenger then why did Allah allow people to be treated in that manner in the first place? And what made him change his mind, about slavery, because that world has not changed , we are still infidels?
You will not attend to this, you will tell me about the Zionist who happened to be related to your prophet through Abraham, the worst slave owner. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Do not be a history basher, the Portugese came to Africa very late compared to the Arabs, in Mapungupwe and Zimbabwe(ruins) African Kingdoms were long trading with the Arabs, and slavery was in pipe line, as you said yourself that the Chiefs were trading their own people, which in fact they were not their own people, they people from enemy tribes( please do not doctor this, and claim that I support such act if done to enemy tribes). Solm you cannot deny the occupation of Egypt, Mali, Sudan, Morocco,Mauritani, Tunisia, Algeria and Libya(Nubia ) by Moslems, those people who now occupy African land and owe alligience to Arab League more than they do to the African Union are Moslem occupiers, in Mali Moslem just abolished slavery in the 90's and African are still enslaved by people who read Quran. The Berber who owned Mauritania and many lands have dispersed by Moslems.
Solm I can understand when you say today Islam does not approve of slavery but to deny and bash your African History to justify the holiness of an Arabic religious ideology is really amazing. Quran does permit a Moslem slave owner to sleep with his slave woman, that is a fact and the person who wrote that was Mohammed, therefore I hold him responsible for perpetuating slavery. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
I am not into which religion is best or better or worst. I am showing you that even if you can try and deny the fact that the North of Africa was exploited by Moslems.
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And Im telling you that this is not how Islam came into Africa.I can give you much better books explsining how Islam came into Africa.It had nothing to do with exploitation.
What you can say and I can agree with with you on that: is Islam put humanity in slavery, by allowing slaves to own business, to be treated with care , which is not in any sense freeing or abolishing slavery but making cosmetic changes, whilst Christianity, Judaism, and African slave dealers were more brutal.
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I think thats an undersatement considering the time.Islam did far more than just allowing slaves to own business or let them be treated with care.It open the door OUT of slavery for them.This is not a cosmetic change.Your prejudice again is standing in the way and your really understating the issue.To finally tell Muslims slavery is not a righteous thing to do is not cosmetic, it links slavery to spirituality.Islam made owning of slavery a very serious matter.
But that doesn't mean it was good for Quran to allow other humans to be made slaves just because they were infidels. Just as the abolishing of slavery by Christian doesn't exonerate their owning of slavery in the first place.
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I think your over-simplification approach to issues makes you miss the point entirely.Of course owning and enslaving people is bad.There is no one in their right mind that can deny that.Slavery is not only bad in the eyes of man, it bad in the eyes of God too.But God did create this problem, humanity did.You cant hold God responsible for that.God has values that He wants humanity to model themselves along, righteous values.But this is a difficult ask for humanity.Another thing here is that Christians only abolished slavery 100 years ago or less, when they had already finished economically exploiting the slaves.When they created their civilisation, they didnt need slaves anymore.On the other hand Islam banished slavery almost 1500 years ago.The issue of slavery was dealt with in Islam in less than 10 years.In this 10 years, slave owners didnt financially benefit from slaves, instead Islam progressively added the rights of slaves and liberating them until it finally abolished it.You really cant compare Christianity with Islam.Neither can you compare Islam with Jews.If there is anybody who financially benefited from slavery far above Christians, its the Jews. Jews traded in slavery almost 90% of slave trading was done by Jews.Over 90% of slaves was owned by Jews.They still practice financial slavery even today, it just that its more fancy and complicated now.Internationally they have created banking institutions that enslave countries, not individuals anymore.They way pass that level.Our own reserve bank, who do you think owns it? The freedom you laud soo much, thats the one that is cosmetic actually.Your government is standing guard for the owners of the reserve bank.Whoever owns the wealth of this country, is the real owner of this country.I can tell you now that you dont own it, I dont own it.Its not the blacks in this country owning it, its not the government, its the Jews my dear.They decide how much the rand is worth today.Your government has no say in it.I can go on and on but I think you get the point.What Im saying to you is that slavery is not gone, its still here.Its much more complicated now.
Quran is not even suppose to have justified that a slave owner is allowed by Allah to sleep with his woman slave. What you fail to appreciate here is that a person who is enslaved has his or her rights taken away from them, they do not make that choice.
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Islam didnt justify anything, it regulated it and finally banished it.Sleeping with slave woman is what existed already, Islam was dealing with the existing situation already.It introduced consent, which wasnt there before, Islam dealt with it Mzabalazo.This is the reason actually that the first group of people to accept Islam was the poor and slaves.hey found redemption in Islam.This is why they flocked in embracing its message, it was a breath of fresh air.
Instead you rush to tell us that African Chiefs were trading with slaves, yes that is true, because even before the filthy Arabs and Caucasians came to our shores slavery was practice amongst Africans by Africans, Indians to Indians, Europeans to Europeans and Arabs to Arabs.
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I didnt rush anything, you the one who did the rushing passing judgment on issue you not well versed with.I was merely pointing out the gaps in your knowledge and condemnation.You cant only hold the buyer of a slave responsible and not the seller.This is the problem with your approach.You have to hold EVERYBODY responsible.You doing this and you telling me about hypocracy and doible standards?Look at yourself before pointing fingures.
But what I detest is your religious attitudes, all of you who follow the Abrahamic religion, that you have the truth and you are holy or God is speaking to you , when your practice are as barbaric as everyone else. If God was on you side you wouldn't have enslaved people just like us infidels. You would have completely shunned this barbaric act, you would not even try to better the conditions of slaves but completely altogether not allow it.
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Again, you fightng a just cause when you taking on slavery.Im with you all the way.But have a clear mind for crying out loud when you fighting.Right now you just firing at everything everywhere.You not doing justice to the cause when you just saber rattling.You need to sit down and think very carefully what you up against.What you fighting is more complicated now, you need to change your strategy.
To you it was very important to quickly stop people from eating pork but difficult to stop people from having slaves. Your Quran says the Moslem slave driver can sleep with his woman slaves. That is in the Quran.
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No its not important to eat pork, justice is important.The reality is that when you dealing with human beings, its a very difficult ask.What is important is not only the message but how you deliver it as well.Go to any psychologist and ask them if its practical to just tell someone who has been addicted to something for generations to suddenly stop doing that.Human mind doesnt work that way.You need a process which eventually gets rid of the addiction.This is important.Someone who smakes 20 cigarettes a day and theu want to stop.its not going to work to just tell them to instantly stop.You need to gradually phase they out of smoking by reducing the number of cigarettes they smoke each day.This is human psychology, if you God dealing with human being you created, you would know that.What you saying is not only possible but impractical.Thats why Im saying you just saber rattling.
If it is wrong to own slaves today Solm it was wrong even then and your prophet was very wrong to even write that a Moslem slave owner was allowed to sleep with a slave woman, who allowed not Allah? Later on the All knowing All Merciful Allah changes His Mind and says it wrong to own slaves, yet He never changes His Mind in eating the pork. I guess you cannot see the logic.
==========================
You missing the point again.The gradual phasing out of slavery is not because God changed His mind, its because thats how human psychology works.The problem is not God, the problem is humanity.This you need to understand also.
Solm
You cannot be telling me that Isreal supported apartheid, we all now that and the Isrealis based their cruelty from their fore father Abraham who claimed superiority to others who had a different belief to his. Islam, Judaism, Christianity are no different , they just give the world same poison but in a different dose. Not long ago you were down playing our liberation now you say Isreal blah blah, you said we were not free because my government was corrupt. Yes the ANC is corrupt but we have choices and we make foolish choices most of the time but we are free to make choices, no one tells me what to eat or not to eat, what to sing or not, who to associate with. Or not wher to live leave, to me that is been free, far much better than living in your holy lands where the rights of infidels and women are trampled all the time, where people read Quran yet their government stinks. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Ooh, before you lecture me that. Arabs who dealt in slavery were not Moslem, get this yes at first they not after Mahommed's alleged revelation they became one and they continued where they left with slavery, the difference was that Allah would not allow them to enslave fellow Moslems, but they can do as they please with us infidels. The Ottoman empire you just qouted as role model, check its history from Moslem sources and tell me that they were not taking slaves. But the buck stops with the writer of the Koran who blesses the abuse of women slaves, that the master has the right to sleep with their slave woman, that troubles me a lot, and I wonder people see holiness in that. How can a God really be so mean so uncaring, that is treating people as rubbish, and that. is very dirty I do not care how long and good you can pray, subjugating people against their will is the most heinous crime ever committed to a people. The Quran is still saying exactly that in the 21 century, even if you no longer practice slavery but those verses they still stand,they are a proof that this religion took people's rights for centuries, making slaves to s#ex toys, that touches me as woman and as an African, because if I was alive then I would be a woman slave and your kind will be forcing themselves at me, been given the permission by the most powerful man in those days, Mohammed. That is a fact Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Your attack and defensive strategy do not change the fact that the Koran allows, those verses I have posted for you, that a Moslem slave owner has the right to sleep with their woman slave, that is a Quranic right a religion supports such an atrocity and we should not question that because Christian, Jews and Africans once owned slaves .
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Im not attacking or defending anything.Im just showing you how to read Qur'an.All Im asking is that you be fair in your criticism of Islam, thats all.
It quite disturbing to be involved in such a discussion with an African who experienced a first hand, how apartheid was demeaning and no cosmetic change of apartheid were going to give dignity to African, yet you want us to praise Mohammed for a useless cosmetic change in slavery, why did he not stop the chauvinst attitude of his followers towards women slaves, why did he not stop them from sleeping with their woman slaves?
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The changes Islam brought to slavery is not cosmetic.I already showed you how untrue that is.Stop with the saber rattling.You not going justice to the cause.I dont know whether its die to ignorance or arrogance.Whatever the case is, its standing its blinding you.You cant fight this cause when you blind.You need to know and understand what you fighting.This shooting blames everywhere, EXCEPT YOU, is really not going to take you anywhere.My task here was to correct your approach, when my job is done, it wont be necessary for me to have this discussion with you.I studied and traced slavery from different sides, it took me years to finally figure out that slavery was a small stain among bigger stains in the corruption of humanity.I was angry too before just like you, however the more I realised what was happening the more I realised the essence of slavery didnt change.So I had to change my strategy, to be more sensible and measured in how I oppose corruption.There is a bigger and more ugly picture you still to find out.You on a journey.I just pray that God shows you the truth.
Solm
Don't play that game again. I hold God and Mohammed responsible, why, because they chose trivial issues to attend to and left the major issue of slavery. People were eating pork then God and Mohammed made sure that they stop eating pork, they did not phase out the eating of pork gradually , nor did they reformed it , as they did with slavery. Now what is important? This God saw slavery was wrong, if he did, I personally do not accept that, and instead of stopping it he writes in his holy book that slave woman can be used by their Moslem owner, what is that? Eating pork was the priority than his people making other suffer by slavery. Solm there is no way you can successfully defend this, that is how it is Allah and his prophet did not see it fit to stop this atrocity of slavery, instead gave permission to their subject to torment the woma slave, on top of that they are already tormented by been made slaves. If I do not blame God who do I blame for telling Moslem men to do as they please s#exually to their women slaves. Why did he do that? Didnt he have the power to not to sanction that, didn't he? Defend and support your prophet and his God but I as an infidel I know what is wrong, and that is wrong Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
This is getting nowhere we will never agree, never, the Quran was not suppose to support slavery from the word go. Mohammed was not suppose to say a Moslem slave owner was allowed to sleep with the slave woman, he had no right to do that, that is in the Quran or can you show how to read that scripture tah you so painfully avoid to comment on Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
How can I blame myself for a scripture that is written by Mohammed? Mohammed wrote that a Moslem slave owner is allowed to sleep with his slave woman and the wife must not complain about that. Now why should I blame myself, or should I blame myself for not agreeing with your prophet on this issue? I will not agree with this kind of attitude, this scripture is wrong and has no place today and had no place when it was writte. you said you do not mind when I criticise Islam, now I am focussing on the scripture that you do not want even to comment about, or am I reading it wrongly too?
This is wrong, very wrong for a person to write. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You do not get it, do you , your job will never be done because there is no job. Your prophet said Moslem owners were allowed to sleep with their slave women, was that wrong or right to say according to you ? To me Solm that scripture is very bad and that means anyone who support it is bad very bad, if it come s from God, then God is very bad. You cannot tell me that if there was an Afrikanner prophet in the 1800's writing in a holy book that Afrikanners were allowed to sleep with their maids as they pleased and their wives were not suppose to object on that, you would agree with that, would you? You would be fuming and explaining how barbaric and cruel that was. Solm even if that Afrikaner prophet changes later and reform the treatment of maids that would not change that fact that the prophet did fuel the atrocities committed to women maids. So why are down playing the cruelty of Mohammed on the issue of women slaves, why? Because humans brought slavery to themselves, therefore a prophet of God has the right to fuel it by writing that it is okay for Moslem males to sleep with their women slaves. That Solm is not right and it will never right. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
I dont know why Sowetan is not letting my post go through now.I hope its not a deliberate block.I will try later again. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
There is no bigger and ugly picture than the one of a holy book giving permission to its followers to commit such atrocities I have mentioned( sleeping with slave woman) you need to first pray to see how wrong it is to say people. Must abuse others. Report Abuse
Solm
Do not worry we are in the same boat, I just posted PRODLY INFIDEL because my 3 times my post were blocked, hardy, that is Sowetan for you. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Don't play that game again. I hold God and Mohammed responsible, why, because they chose trivial issues to attend to and left the major issue of slavery. People were eating pork then God and Mohammed made sure that they stop eating pork, they did not phase out the eating of pork gradually , nor did they reformed it , as they did with slavery. Now what is important? This God saw slavery was wrong, if he did, I personally do not accept that, and instead of stopping it he writes in his holy book that slave woman can be used by their Moslem owner, what is that? Eating pork was the priority than his people making other suffer by slavery. Solm there is no way you can successfully defend this, that is how it is Allah and his prophet did not see it fit to stop this atrocity of slavery, instead gave permission to their subject to torment the woma slave, on top of that they are already tormented by been made slaves. If I do not blame God who do I blame for telling Moslem men to do as they please s#exually to their women slaves. Why did he do that? Didnt he have the power to not to sanction that, didn't he? Defend and support your prophet and his God but I as an infidel I know what is wrong, and that is wrong
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Mzabalazo, even pork is allowed to be eaten when you have no other halaal choice.Your life is far more important to preserve than eating of pork.Islam is practical, it weighs issues first before.Do you know at what stage of Islam pork was outlawed?Do you know that eating regulations and social laws were only dealt with at a later stage.In Islam the fundamentals are laid out in that verse which describes what is righteousness.If you read that verse outlining the fundamentals, you wont find eating pork there listed.You will find owning of slaves listed there among the fundamentals. Islam and justice go hand in hand.If you remove your blinds and prejudice, you will see much more. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
Solm
Don't play that game again. I hold God and Mohammed responsible, why, because they chose trivial issues to attend to and left the major issue of slavery. People were eating pork then God and Mohammed made sure that they stop eating pork, they did not phase out the eating of pork gradually , nor did they reformed it , as they did with slavery. Now what is important? This God saw slavery was wrong, if he did, I personally do not accept that, and instead of stopping it he writes in his holy book that slave woman can be used by their Moslem owner, what is that? Eating pork was the priority than his people making other suffer by slavery. Solm there is no way you can successfully defend this, that is how it is Allah and his prophet did not see it fit to stop this atrocity of slavery, instead gave permission to their subject to torment the woma slave, on top of that they are already tormented by been made slaves. If I do not blame God who do I blame for telling Moslem men to do as they please s#exually to their women slaves. Why did he do that? Didnt he have the power to not to sanction that, didn't he? Defend and support your prophet and his God but I as an infidel I know what is wrong, and that is wrong
Solm
I am Arabs were eating pork as they like, just as they were having slaves as they like, but this God saw it more important to stop these people from eating pork( I know that you can eat anything preserve life, you can even wash with sand if there is no water in the desert in preparation for a prayer, that is not what I am talking about) yet he did not see it important do just that with slaves ( allow them to have slave only to preserve life lol). Solm he wrote that it was ok for a Moslem man to sleep with a woman slave, knowing very well that slavery was wrong. That to me is very unsettling and cannot find peace with it. It is wrong Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Why did Mohammed say it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with a woman slave.? Let's deal that, why should it be ok to do that? Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
You cannot be telling me that Isreal supported apartheid, we all now that and the Isrealis based their cruelty from their fore father Abraham who claimed superiority to others who had a different belief to his. Islam, Judaism, Christianity are no different , they just give the world same poison but in a different dose. Not long ago you were down playing our liberation now you say Isreal blah blah,
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Abraham did claim superiority above anyone anywhere.Who downplayed the South African struggle? Muslim countries financed the ANC in exiled, financed the ANC to compaign for 94 elections.You clearly dont know much.You just angry at the world.
you said we were not free because my government was corrupt. Yes the ANC is corrupt but we have choices and we make foolish choices most of the time but we are free to make choices, no one tells me what to eat or not to eat, what to sing or not, who to associate with. Or not wher to live leave, to me that is been free, far much better than living in your holy lands where the rights of infidels and women are trampled all the time, where people read Quran yet their government stinks.
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Your government has bigger problems.The choices they made pre-94 are treasonous to say the least.They lost the plot a long time ago. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Remember that what Mohammed wrote was a revelation from God through an angel, why should Mohammed be told to write that it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with his woman slave, and what was going on in God 's mind to ok such heinous act? Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Why did Mohammed say it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with a woman slave.? Let's deal that, why should it be ok to do that?
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These were new Muslims Mzabalazo, they got into Islam much later when Islam was already 15 years.I dont think you understand the difficulty of administering this.These people had no knowledge of the fundamentals of Islam, they still had to be taught.This situation applies to those people, not everybody.Not every Muslims had slaves, not every new Muslim had slaves.The application of these temporal verses applied to specific people.People came into Islam with gabbage, there had to be a filtering process while they are taught the fundamentals.Its easy for you sitting in the 21st century to make abstract judgments on this issue.When you there dealing with all the dynamics at the same time, its a completely different situation.Its not right to sleep with anyone you not married to.But the reality is that you dealing with people who did far worse things than you make noise about.Such people had to be fixed, and fixing them needed a method. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
I am Arabs were eating pork as they like, just as they were having slaves as they like, but this God saw it more important to stop these people from eating pork( I know that you can eat anything preserve life, you can even wash with sand if there is no water in the desert in preparation for a prayer, that is not what I am talking about) yet he did not see it important do just that with slaves ( allow them to have slave only to preserve life lol). Solm he wrote that it was ok for a Moslem man to sleep with a woman slave, knowing very well that slavery was wrong. That to me is very unsettling and cannot find peace with it. It is wrong
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I dont think its fair to say God said it ok to sleep with woman slaves, its not fair to judge the manner in which He dealt with this issue at the bigining.Do you know how ridiculous what you saying is.Its like a smoker who smokes 20 cigarettes a day and come to me to seek advice.I know its going to be impossible for this smoker to follow advice which tells him to stop suddenly.So instead I tell the person to scale down on the smoking, from 20 a day in a weeks, 15 a day for the next week and so on until he gets to zero a day.What you doing is like turning around and blame me for saying this person should smoke 15 a day instead of nothing.Duh! You need to look at the whole process before your judge. Report Abuse
At least you blocked, mine gets filtered now.It only shows the part where I quote what you wrote and not my reply. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
That is an excuse, a big excuse, other rules were inrtroduced to people, they were not told hat they may worship other Gods whom they worshipped before Islam say one a month, but slavery had to be perpertuated because these people were not getting the dynamics of Islam. Tell that to he brainwashed Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Sowetan you have won, I can' t do this anymore, it was nice to have this discussion with Solm and I do appreciate the privilege you allowed me so far. Solm we will meet in again, there was a Mali topic before and I posted in to. Hope Sowetan will again allow us on another blog- PROUDLY INFIDEL Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Who said Mohammed must write that it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with a woman slave? Wasnt Mohammed writing a revelation from an angel or was the slave business his idea not a revelation ? pleas give us a formular on whow we distinguish what is from God inQuran and what is from Mohammed Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
A lot of things creeeped into Islam that doesnt belong there, especially in Hadith.One of the hadith which says the Prophet married Aisha at 6 and consumated the marriage at 9 has been shown to be untrue.Such Hadith need to be filtered out.Lets look at this particular Hadith from Bukhari, one of the collectors of Hadith about 200 years after the death of the Prophet.Tabari, who was one of the companions of the Prophet tell us Abu Bakr( Aisha's father) had 4 kids and ALL his kids were born before the revelation.He also tells us when the suggestion was made to the Prophet to marry Aisha, she was already engaged to someone else.This guy who was engaged to Aisha cancelled the engagement after Abu Bakr and his whole family accepted Islam.The Prophet spent 13 years in Makkah and 10 years in Medina.Now methametically its impossible for Aisha to have been born and engaged BEFORE the revelation and be 6 when married the Prophet.If she was born and enganged before the revelation, she couldnt have been 6.This is the first problem.Secondly, Ibn Kathir, a historian and scholar, tell us Aisha's elder sister Asma died at 73 afte the migration to Medina and she was 100 years old and she was 10 years older than Aisha.A simple maths sheds some light on this, if she died at 73 after migration and she was 100, it means she was 27 (100-73) when the migration took place.The Prophet married Aisha 1 year after migration, which means Asma was 27+1=28.If she was 10 years older than Aisha, it means Aisha was 18 years old when she married the Prophet not 9 as reported.This Hadith was mistakenly reported and people are using this hadith to slander the Prophet that he was a paediphile and pervert.The kind of slander that was brought by this mistakenly reported is irreparable. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
That is an excuse, a big excuse, other rules were inrtroduced to people, they were not told hat they may worship other Gods whom they worshipped before Islam say one a month, but slavery had to be perpertuated because these people were not getting the dynamics of Islam. Tell that to he brainwashed
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You cant compare whats due to God (worship) and whats due to fellow humanity (slavery). You are just a feminist without a cause.You spend too much time one issue and miss the point of the bigger picture.I dont know why you want to pick a fight with practices done over a thousand years ago.What about whats happening now in Africa? Why dont you make noise about reed dance?How about Zwelithini having girls lining up so that he can check them out and choose the one he likes?Lets hear you make noise about that.Make noise about ukuthwala!You are soo sellecting in your judgment.Hey suka la wena.You want to blame things that happened centuries ago in far away places but you cant see what happens NOW IN FRONT OF YOU.Where is your burning flame for what is happening in your life time, your country?You do all this and have a nerve to talk about brainwashing.Kusekude phambili la kuwe. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
I think I made my case here.I will wrap things up by saying this.Remember that God is in charge, He will administer ultimate justice when the time comes.He created everything and everything will return to Him.Remember also that you will stand in front of Him and answer for every action you make, every word you utter.Be kind and just how you deal with people, He will be fair and just when dealing with your affairs when you stand in front of Him.This is very important, you can forget everything else I told you, just remember that a time will come for you to stand in front of Him.Whether you believe it or not, you will stand in front of Him, whether you like it or not, you will stand in front of Him.Therefore woory more about yourself and where you stand in relation to your own hour of Judgment.Start fixing things from yourself.It was nice chatting to you.I did get upset and laughed at times but overall it was good chatting to you.Keep your head up.Cheers Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Zwelithini and Mohammed are one and the same they both are Pedophiles . Answer this when do we separate God from the message that Mohammed Got from the Angel. Bra Gab. You guys say it all the time Quean is a message from God yet I should not blame God for women slave and just slavery as it is.
Giving me the mumbo jumbo yokuthwala and Zwelithini's pedophiliic mentality does not justify slavery and Mohammed 's pedophile mentality Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Your God is as bad as Mohammed. He supports slavery and pedophiliic mentality, how can an old man many a child, this is reality ubsurd. Instead of explaining what I ask you jump all over the place, from Isreal to Zwelithini's who I really do not even give a d#anm about. You Quran says Moslem man are allowed to sleep with their woman slaves, you claim that was a compromise because people did not understand the dynamics of Islam, yet they was no compromise in worshipping other Gods they had to stop even though they did not understand the dynamics, that is real b#ull scholar, real dogma Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
God is in charge of you not me I'm PROUDLY INFIDEL tell your God to go to paradise And stop messing our earth with filthy teachings we have enough already, we do not want him with his pedophiliic and slavery mentality, let him go practice that nonsense in heaven, we have enough of that trouble already without the encouragement from the Quran Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
PPROUDLY INFIDEL! PROUDLY INFIDEL and ANTI -CHILD ABUSE! ANTI- women abuse by corrupt people claiming they have a revelation allowing MOSLEM MALES TO SLEEP WITH WOMEN SLAVES. Away with ARABIC dogma, this is not on. The world does not need another organized religious crime. Leave us alone with our earthly lives and go to your paradise where pedophilia, slavery and forever virgins are. PROUDLY INFIDEL Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
I wish that day was real, I will cause a revolution in heaven, what is alleged Satan did will be nothing, I will send your God to His maker, he will never again bully humans again, naughty lazy whatever thing he is. Bullying us because he has special powers to H#ell with him , for all the genocides, children abuse, people marrying children like Mohammed, for all the atrocities committed then and now under his holy filthy name. I am waiting for that day Solm, you want us to praise total bullying from a stupid God who wants us to be slaves nonsense. I am waiting tell this Bully that I am waiting for that day when I will tell him personally and I hope he won't dapuck and dive like you do Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
I am not afraid of a God who encourage slavery and pedophiliic mentality. Allah did not see anything wrong with his pedophiliic prophet marrying a child, tell him when you pray that I am not even afraid of his threats, he is a useless God with all the powers he has, children are bombed in Syria, children made orphans in Africa and corruption and unfairness is rife all over the world while he is concerned about halall and RAMADAN, he is useless. Making people suffer on earth and promise that's a pipe dream in paradise. That paradise is worse that the earth you are living in, ask Satan he will tell you, that is not a place for anything, God is the worst tyrannt , ruthless ruler and stupid to allow all that is happening for billions of years when he has the power, he is worse that the USA govt. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Cheers , don't forget to tell Him that I am waiting for that day, He will regret having an appointment with this girl, I mean it , I wish to meet this BULLY called GOD. Report Abuse
May He forgive you Mzabalazo and give you guidance before your time is up.May He not hold what you say about Him against you.You have no idea what you talking about.Its better for you to keep your misinformed opinions to your self, in that case you will only be responsible for your own actions.If you mislead others, you will be responsible for them.You dont want that believe me.Its interesting that you believe the crap Satan tells you but disbelieve God.I have nothing to ask Satan your friend. I have no business with Him.When you standing in front of Him, Miss Keyboard worrior, you will have no defence against His Judgment.Neither you nor your friend Satan will stand a chance.God runs the place, 24/7.God didnt make anyone suffer.If you want to know who is causing all the sufferings, ask your friend Satan.He knows who is messing things here on earth. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You people are the same, when I talk about the issue in hand you refer me to something else, Moslem would say you cannot make noise about ancestral worship and Christianity and Christians will say you will not make noise about Islam and Ancestral worship, guess what this girl does, because all of these are man made practices, all of them are primitive and oppressive, this girl doesn't pick and choose, that is why Shredder was passing a remark on how far would you take it, she knows that I have no respect for any kind of worship, be it Native or foreign to Africa like the imported Islam , Christianity Hinduism or any for that matter. PROUDLY INFIDEL, it depends on the topic, angina so isiphandla, and angikhethi ukuthi urbanity olds engulf abantwana under the name of marriage whether it's a traditional practice or religious practice and so just you know I detest people who defend it like you did on Mohammed, because you think it's due to people not God, that is unspeakable, down with Pedophiles , be it they are Christians, Zionist, Moslem or Traditionalist, I hate them with passion that is why I will never accept Homammed, he was a pedophile Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Satan cannot be my friend as I do not support Pedophiles and slavery He is yours and Mohammed as those practice are exactly what he wants, so in that manner God and Satan are just sides of the same coin, they enjoy tormenting people, they like to bully people, they like to control people and they both get the thrill out of human suffering, they are both cruel aliens who need to vacate our earth with their worshippers and let us be, we do not need them. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
I know you think ukuthwala is mumbo jumbo, its not a big deal for you because its from you friend.You not after your friend, its God you after.Good news for you, you will meet with Him.Lets see what you got keyboard worrior.You and your friend are bluffing eachother, when both your Judgment comes, you wont stand it.I pity you really, you the one misled here.It pains me to see you setting yourself for a double suffering.As a black person you suffered/ suffering in this world.It would be a tragedy for you to suffer in the next world too.The punishment of the next wold is more severe.This is what pains me about you. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
I came here to correct your approach to certain verses, I discharged that duty with what Im capable of.I didnt duck and dive as you would like to assume yourself by.I explained everything to you in details.But I cant speak to the wall or myself.You formed opinions about Islam even before knowing facts.Because you remain unmoved in that opinion, no heaven and earth will make you change your mind.This exercise is pointless the because we really dealing with the symptoms of a problem and not a problem itself.Your problem is that you proudly infidel as you state.This is the crux of the matter here.Only God guides who He pleases, nobody else.You like a broken record, repeating things over and over again without really wanting to apply your mind.Yes I will defend Mohammed and God, with my life is I have to.I will defend them against your empty rhetoric, I will defend them against slander, I will defend them against corruption, I will defend them againt your friend Satan. The fearlessness you claim against God's Judgment, is the fearlessness I have for your and you friend.I can take you which ever way you come.You want a debate, lets have at it, anything you choose anywhere, I will defend God and His Prophet in anyway I can.If your claim about God is true, then it looks like we one of a pair then dont you think?We the exact opposite.How wonderful! Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
@Mzabalazo
'need to vacate our earth with their worshippers and let us be, we do not need them'
Really? This is YOUR earth? When exactly did you make or buy this earth from whom? Your delusion is much more serious than I thought, you really are lost. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Solm
By the way as a side comment.Whether you accept Mohammed or not, its of no consequence to him.You can call him anything you want.It really wont change anything.You can play your games with others, Im not that gallible.Its not going to work with me.God lit my way and guided me.I can separate wheat from chuff with sheer ease.No amount of saber rattling intimidates or confuses me. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
We need not to b#uy earth or did we need to b#y Mzansu to own it? We needed not to purchasing things is just as man made as religion itself
I do not have no problem with you worshipping whatever it does not matter to me but you cannot shove your beliefs down my throat as a fact, your hell and earth are real to you but not with me so you cannot tell me that wether I believe not I will face Him in the day of judgement because it's tit for teet, whether you believe in judgement or not there no judgement and standing in front of anybody . Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
You got it all wrong who is trying to intimidate the other here, it's you, telling me about the mumbo jumbo judgement nonsense just because I cannot accept your Islam jokes. Read what you wrote then you will know where my answers come from, you want to keep quite when you give empty threats on me about judgement day that you uses to scare your converts. Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
What do you call yours is it not grandeur ,yours is worse my friend worse, no one bought to become citizens of where they were born, we do not even have to purchase to be in our mothers womb, so your question is irrelevant Report Abuse
Aug 16, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
People who are delusional are those who imagine themselves living in paradise, marrying virgins in heaven, hat is delusional my friend, very delusional Report Abuse
Sep 5, 2012
DinuZulu
I sued to care about people from different religions then mine and actually have a Koran at a point until i met the Moslems in the Western Cape. This place is filled with Gangsters "depending where you live" and they are all Muslims and even at work during the most spiritual time of fasting the slamse here treat others with such disrespect and rudeness especially the women.
As a Nguni man and one of South Africa's native people I don’t walk around demanding respect but these people are taking it over board. The native people of South Africa are "Qhoi Qhoin, Qhoi San, Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, Shangaane, Phuti, Hlubi, Swati, Ngwane, Thembu, Zizi, Bhele, Mpondo, Bhaca, Mpondomise, Mfengu to menstion the least.
This is not sadiarabia, these people came to our land with Engelish Slave ships by the name of Jintu and today are acting like we owe them something. I say F*ck off back to where you basterds come from...
Kind Regards
X Muslim respecter but that was changed by the rude Muslims i work with at work!
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Comments
LostGuy
Religious tolerance its a foreign word to the Muslim community they think their religion is better than others..Report Abuse
Mellow
The Empangeni branch of KFC provided employees with two chicken pieces a day, but Cele said he did not enjoy chicken and had the right to eat his own food at work...................................................................................................................
And it makes fatty KFC halaal how exactly?! He is right he cant be forced to eat that crap rather pap and chakalaka struus it sounds so halaal it fits in they are crazy thank goodness your job is safe
Report Abuse
Shredder
@LostGuy - Religious tolerance its a foreign word to the Muslim community they think their religion is better than others..=========================================================================
Sometimes I do think like that too. Shuuu!! And they are mushrooming like nobody's business in the townships.
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Kaylae
good that he has been reinstated continue boss eating your non-halaalReport Abuse
Dzel
Well done CCMA for clarifying the obvious.In their reply to me KFC said his dismissal was according to Labour Relations Act but of course this is rubbish and the CCMA has just validated this.
We need to stand up to abuse, those of us not directly affected need to start ad-hoc lobby groups and pressure companies that do not respect our labour laws to conform. KFC makes the bulk of its profits from black customers, it is about time they feel our collective power.
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Di-Anne
Hence they employ people like that poor guy to work for them, since you work under their roof then you must eat halaal jeeerrrr crap. You have a right to eat whateva u feel like boss papa ka mogoduReport Abuse
Keafixa
this means KFC employees earn R2600 per month........this is serious underpayment.Report Abuse
Shredder
@Keafixa - Count your blessingsReport Abuse
Chichi7
Muslims need to start learning to respect other religions other than them thinking that they are holier than thou.Why must someone eat your food when you do not eat theirs? Why must you think you are clean when others are not clean in your eyes?
That is just taking the love of God out of context and yet they are trigger happy 24/7
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Mzabalazo
Religion, aag man! I wonder what is really important, to keep Ramadan or not to be a pedophile, as we speak in many Arab countries old people are marrying under age girls, because the old prophet Mohammad married a 9 year old girl. I wonder did Allah not see that what this old man was doing was unspeakable.Report Abuse
Papage
Do we have halaal Maize and Halaal beans? I thought halaal only implies to the way the animals are slaughtered, does it apply to the way maise and beans are cultivated? interesting lessons everyday.Report Abuse
iPhone4
Tjo a salary bakithi they must pay him the interestReport Abuse
sakhomba
Jabulani " phunyuka bemphethe" CeleReport Abuse
Bizzabo
@Mzabalazobe careful, you are treading on dangerous ground!
Report Abuse
Shredder
@Chichi7 - Muslims need to start learning to respect other religions other than them thinking that they are holier than thou.=========================================================================
That is why I chucked something(food) into the rubbish bin that one muslim gave to me. He doesn't eat my food but he wants me to eat his food. :-D
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Papage
Do we have halaal Maize and Halaal beans? I thought halaal only implies to the way the animals are slaughtered, does it apply to the way maise and beans are cultivated? interesting lessons everyday.
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Yes every food should be hallalled, except for fish, or anything from the sea is automatically hallaled. The name of Allah should be called before you slaughter an animal.
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Solm
I dont know whats more tragic here between these Indians who have diluted Islam with their culture or self-appointed armchair critics of Islam like Mzabalazo.We have anaother blog on the same issue where I explained that there is nothing haraam with pap and beans.Just because its not eating in the Indian culture it doesnt make it not halaal.Of course these ignorant acts by Indian Muslims provide armchair critics with an opportunity to bash Islam.The ignorance on both sides is beyond description.Report Abuse
Solm
*eatenReport Abuse
Papage
Thank you Solm, well taughtReport Abuse
MommaC
SolmNope. The most tragic of all this is the people who allow their faith to be trampled on like this but go all fatwa if someone draws a picture. That isn't only tragic but pathetic too.
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Shredder
Armchair critics ne? HihihihihiReport Abuse
NQUTHU
They can mushroom any way they can but they are not going to force their religion into our throats. Ask the people in Dlamini,Soweto, regarding the mosque, no more screaming at 17.00 and 05.00 though they were good alarms in the morning.Report Abuse
Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Chichi7
Muslims need to start learning to respect other religions other than them thinking that they are holier than thou.
Why must someone eat your food when you do not eat theirs? Why must you think you are clean when others are not clean in your eyes?
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How can you expect tolarence from Islam when the Koran teaches the opposite ? Check this out:
Koran IX/123 o ye who believe! Fight those of disbelievers who are near you and let them find harshness in you and know Allah is with those keep their duty unto him
IX/29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the jiziya(poll tax) with the hand of humility
Sura 8:40 Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of God
Sura 8:9 Make war upon such of those whom the Scrpture been given as believe not in God, or in the last days...
Sura 25:52 Give not way to the infidels, but by means of this Koran fight against them with a might strife.
Sura 48(1) Medina- 29 verses: it shall be no crime on the part of the blind, the lame and the sick, if they go not to the fight....
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Solm
@ MommacTo understand whats happening with Muslims today you need to know the situation at the time of Jesus.He was fighting the same mentality of reducing religion to formalistic practice, Muslims have lost, just like Jews then, the meaning of things.You have cartels or mafias, like the Pharisees, made out of 'scholars' or rabbis who have established a power-base in their communities as the only authority in matters religious.Ordinary Muslims rely on these mafias to give fatwas or religious decrees that are often reasoned very poorly.These mafias have convinced ordinary Muslims that they cant do anything without their ok.This is the problem here.These mafias have appointed themselves as community leaders which is also problematic as Islam has no glergy.This is the general problem.With regard to this halaal issue.Its a hot potatoe even among Muslims.This industry has been turned into a multi-million rand business.Its no longer about looking after the well being of Muslims.It all about how much money can be made.Its the rot that has unfortunately left people who dont know whats happening thoroughly confused.So nobody is keeping quite.There is a surge of a different kind of thinking that is challenging this 'orthodox' interpretation and application of Islam.There is a lot happening, its just that you not aware of it.
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Solm
I dont know whats more tragic here between these Indians who have diluted Islam with their culture or self-appointed armchair critics of Islam like Mzabalazo.We have anaother blog on the same issue where I explained that there is nothing haraam with pap and beans.Just because its not eating in the Indian culture it doesnt make it not halaal.Of course these ignorant acts by Indian Muslims provide armchair critics with an opportunity to bash Islam.The ignorance on both sides is beyond description.
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Solm
I am sorry to hurt your feelings no punt intended, but Islam as religion has brought more harm than good, especially to our people,MIT made us slaves and as we speak it still encourages slavery. It encourage race superiority , I cannot not be a Moslem without adopting an Arabic name, what is wrong with my name, Allah cannot accept it, why should he only accept me when I have an Arabic name amongst other things?
I have worked with Arabs from Egypt,Saudi, Tunusia and Lybia they as racist as those Indians they treat us just as bad,never worse, purchase Ayaan's book and findout how African Moslems are treated in Saudi. Hypocracy of religion should be expose . Again I am so sorry to have hit the nerve
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Solm
@ MzabalazoI know your type, you just quote verses out of context to feed your twisted arvesion of Islam.Besides, the Qur'an is not like the Bible, its not narrative in its approach, its instructive.You cant quote verses like you do here, in a cut and paste manner, and post them here.You need to provide the people you posting to the context of each verse.To give an interpretation of Qur'an, you need to know the sciences of interpreting it.It takes 4 years to study the sciences of interpreting it.You cant cut and paste verses here.Your approach is wrong.
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Mzabalazo
SolmIslam lost from its formation as it reduced women into properties of the male( I am sure that is not the problem as you are male) .To say Islam was trying to fix the problems of the past that is not true, robbing caravans of " infidels" how was it fixing things, reducing women to perpertual servitude and promoting slavery, how was it helping correct the past corruption?
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Solm
@ MzabalazoYou havent hit any nerve, it takes far more that what you said to hurt my feelings.None of what you said here is true.You dont have to change your name to be Muslim.Islam is the one that abolished slavery.Islam doesnt encourage race superiority.None of what you saying here is actually correct.Saudis are Zionists, they are the last people you should consider as examples of Islam, and so are the Egyptians and many Arabs.This people have committed serious crimes Islamically and they will pay for it.They have done far more damage than America dropping bombs.They have destroyed Islam from the inside.I dont like the way Indians treat blacks here, I hate it.But dont confuse Indian culture which is racist to the core, with Islam.This two are NOT inter-changeable.Indians have issues among themselves, far bigger issues.They are messed up on their own.I dont condone what they do, especially when they use Islam as cover.That is unaceeptable.On the other hand, we as blacks need to wake up.Why are we always the doormat of every race under the sun?When are we going to wake up and stop blaming other and take responsibility for ourselves?Why do we allow to be used or abused?I think this has a lot to do with us sleeping than Indians or Arabs or whites.Aso long as we keep sleeping and not taking responsibility for our actions in our own country, strangers from far away places will come exploit us.The way we are, we are soo inviting even to people who come soo far away.All we want to do is blame blame blame.When are we going to wake up?
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Mzabalazo
SolmNarrative or not theirs religion has created more harm on this planet, we have Jihadist using the same claimed narratives verse. Read these verses and explain the context to us, if you think they cannot be explained:
Quran
XXIV/6-7 As for those who accuse their wives (wife) but have no witness except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...
II/223 Your women are a tilth for you to cultivate. so go to your tilth as ye will..
I'V/15 If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ... Confine them until death claims them.
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This is self explanatory you can make any intellectual excuses teaches that women should be treated inferior than men, why should one man's witness be so powerful and yet when you read the text where the case is a male against a male more witnesses are needed. Make excuses right.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoYou throwing everything in one go now.Show me how does Islam reduce woman into properties.Please show me.Dont tell me about Indian culture or Arab culture.Tell me how ISLAM reduce woman into property.Show me where Islam perpertuate slavery?Dont tell me Arabs do this and that, tell me how Islam does that.As for robbing caravans, really now that stooping very low.I dont know how you studied Islam really, Im begining to doubt you know anything here.The raiding of caravans was done because Muslims were is a state of war with the Quraish. It was practice then and still is now, countries at war do raid the enemy camp and loot it.Have you heard the saying ' to the voctor belongs the spoils'? Where do you think its coming from?What do you think it means?
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Mzabalazo
SolmCan you please quote a scripture in the Koran where it says Moslems should not own slaves, please do not tell me about the civilized people who fought for the abolishment of slavery. And please show me any narrative scripture that says a woman should be treated an equal, I have posted the scriptures that you claim are out of context. Yes I will paste and post as I am not born with knowledge like everyone else, except you who have the natural intelligence, cut and paste is not illegal and it similar to quoting a book, you cannot know algebra from birth so why worry when I paste the truth
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Is-it-just-me???
Mzabalazo what u r doing is foreign to Islam .Quoting verses and throwing them like stones at others is foreign to us.
There are many people in this forum who are Muslims but won't comment because they know that "its a waste of time to argue with certain kinds of people".
Solm
Millions of all races have embraced Islam(Male,Female,poor,rich,scientists,dr's).That alone is proof .
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Mzabalazo
SolmThe verses are posted above I will cut and paste
AUG 13, 2012
Mzabalazo
Solm
Narrative or not theirs religion has created more harm on this planet, we have Jihadist using the same claimed narratives verse. Read these verses and explain the context to us, if you think they cannot be explained:
Quran
XXIV/6-7 As for those who accuse their wives (wife) but have no witness except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...
II/223 Your women are a tilth for you to cultivate. so go to your tilth as ye will..
I'V/15 If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ... Confine them until death claims them.
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This is self explanatory you can make any intellectual excuses teaches that women should be treated inferior than men, why should one man's witness be so powerful and yet when you read the text where the case is a male against a male more witnesses are needed. Make excuses right.
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Is-it-just-me???
Mzabalazo enough about Islam.Everyone has read or heard about what the religion stands for.They have a choice to embrace it or reject it.How about you.What do you stand for?
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Sasafrican
@Dzel,thanks bro,how can one reach you,i have another confusing one here regarding the LRA,these companies are really messing us upReport Abuse
Solm
You and bin laden are the same.Him and him gang hand pick verses and butcher people, you hand-pick verses to butcher Islam.Both of you are bed fellows.Man and woman NOT the same.They will NEVER be the same, you can protest all you want kicking and screaming, NOTHING will change that. This is a biological, psychological and emotional difference between man and woman.Nothing can change this FACT.That being said, Islam recognises this difference and grants male and females DIFFERENT but COMPLIMENTARY roles.A male has his rights and obligations, the same with woman. The reason why in the court of law, the woman testimony has a higher acceptance ratio, is that woman generally are emotional creatures.They were naturally made that way.Being emotional turns to cloud one's judgment.Im not saying man are not emotional, they are, but far less than woman.Now justice in Islam is very important value.Nothing is allowed to stand in the way of justice, not emotionalism, not subjectivity.This is the reason.It has nothing to do with enslaving or oppressing or making woman be property.It has everything to do with the natural fact that woman are emotional beings and emotions are not part of an Islamic court of law.
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Is-it-just-me???
Uputhu and beans are Halaal.even better than oily chicken.Report Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmYou want more?
Quotes from Hadith Tirmzi
If a woman's conduct is mischievous or immodest, the husband has the right to beat her up but must not break her bones
A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers(NAFAL) or observe fasting ( other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband
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Solm
@ is-it-just-meI have tolerated Mzabalazo's butchering of Islam for a while now.It reaches a point where you just have to say something.Not for the sake of Mzabalazo alone but for the sake of those other readers who make opinions on Islam based on what Mzabalazo says.I dont mind criticism on Islam, but it has to be fair and factual.Dont make up things or twist things just so you can have a go at Islam.Its not fair.
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Afrojoy
Why are we going bananas on this forum...even Woolies food is Halaal. Deal with it.Report Abuse
Solm
@ MzabalazoLOL.Now you outdoing yourself.A woman is forbidden to make prayers without the permission of her husband?Where do you come up with all this stuff? A prayer is between a human being and God ALONE.None needs permission from any human being to pray.This is rubbish.Tell whoever was teaching you Islam they dont know it themselves.Listen to me, the Prophet never lifted a finger to harm any woman ALL his life.Why dont you judge Islam based on him? That Hadith you claim to be from Timidi, please give me reference for it.
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Mzabalazo
SolmStop playing tricks, you said I should provide with verses reduces women to male chauvinst property, I gave them to you , now you understand them you needed no context as you claimed narrative blah blah , now you agree with the Koran that women should be the property of males, they should beat them, they should detain then,methyl should ask permission from male chauvinst to worship Allah.
No one said male and women are the same, infant even the children are not the same with women or children, but we cannot justify child abuse based on that,mas you justify women abuse, forgetting that your mother is a woman, your sisters are women and they deserve respect. This is pathetic coming from an an intelligent men like you.
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Shredder
@SolmI have tolerated Mzabalazo's butchering of Islam for a while now.
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Hihihihihihi. I wanted to see how much farther you could go. Hihihihihi.
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Mzabalazo
Solm I copy and paste from the English version of the Koran, given to me by a good Moslem friend of mine from BahrainYou said I should show I am showing you now you feel the evidence is too much to handle and you have to keep quite for the sake of others. I can take that, it's okay.
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Afrojoy
What Mzabalazo is saying is not only true representation of the quotes as they are from the Quran, but also a true account of what happens in most of the Islam community. Solm, Is-It-Just-Me maybe can explain why death and killing and butchering lies at the heart of Islam belief and practice? Why is the Boko Haram butchering people? Why Al Qaeda...why London bombings against innocent souls?Report Abuse
Solm
@ MzabalazoI gave you the situation those verses are dealing with.What more you want from me? Where did I say woman should be property of males? You not only putting words on Islam, you putting words on me now.What is the matter with you? Are you even listening to what Im saying or you having this conversation with yourself?have you heard anything I have told you? Show me the abuse that Islam is doing on woman.Im waiting for that one.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoDear, you dont read verses that way.Did your good Muslim friend not tell you HOW to read those verses?Is he or she did that then its a great disservice.You dont do what you doing.Otherwise you become bin laden of Islam.
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Solm
@ Mzabalazo
LOL.Now you outdoing yourself.A woman is forbidden to make prayers without the permission of her husband?Where do you come up with all this stuff? A prayer is between a human being and God ALONE.None needs permission from any human being to pray.This is rubbish.Tell whoever was teaching you Islam they dont know it themselves.Listen to me, the Prophet never lifted a finger to harm any woman ALL his life.Why dont you judge Islam based on him? That Hadith you claim to be from Timidi, please give me reference for it.
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Nowhere did I say Mohammad lifted a hand for her wives, I have quoted from the Koran what it says on how treat a woman and these are just a few verses about how women are treated, sleeping with slaves by force and the Koran saying a man kcal sleep with a slave child as long as they never brast feeded by the man's wife. How often can a master's wife can breast feed a slave child?
I never said Muhammad beat his wives , but the Koran says you can beat your wife, and you said I can cry and scream but women and men will never be the same, that too surprised me as I never claimed that we will ever be the same,.
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Solm
@ Mzabalazo
I gave you the situation those verses are dealing with.What more you want from me? Where did I say woman should be property of males? You not only putting words on Islam, you putting words on me now.What is the matter with you? Are you even listening to what Im saying or you having this conversation with yourself?have you heard anything I have told you? Show me the abuse that Islam is doing on woman.Im waiting for that one.
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Solm if you allowed to beat your wife, and confine them until death, then they are no longer your equals, they are your property, that is if you have the absolute power over a person and you can do as you please, something you cannot do to another, they are reduced to a property, yes the Koran does not say they are your property per se, but at the end tha is that.
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Solm
@ afrojoyWhat Al Qaida is doing has NOTHING to do with Islam, what Boko Harram is doing in Nigeria has NOTHING to do with Islam.All these groups from Nigeria to the Philliphines, they do what Mzabalazo is doing, hand-pick verses and 'apply' them.This is why there are sciences of interpreting Qur'an.You need to learn the tools of interpretaion first before doing it. There is what we call asbab an nuzzul or reasons for the revelation of verses.You cant cut and paste verses without knowing the reasons for their revelation.This is very important.Verses were revealed to respond to a particular situation that has arisen at the time of the Prophet. How are you going to understand the point of the verse without knowing the set of facts that necessitated the revelation of that verse? Asbab an nuzzul is just one of many sciences of interpreting verses.There are many other that I dont have time to go into now.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou also misquoting wheat is written it says a woman should ask for her husband's permission to nmake an extra NAFAL , it does not say he is forbidden to make NAFAL, so do not change what is written. In short a man can make an extra NAFAL they need no one's permission but a woman has to get a permission to make an EXTRA NAFAL . That is wrong and unfair to the core
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Solm
MzabalazoNowhere did I say Mohammad lifted a hand for her wives, I have quoted from the Koran what it says on how treat a woman and these are just a few verses about how women are treated, sleeping with slaves by force and the Koran saying a man kcal sleep with a slave child as long as they never brast feeded by the man's wife. How often can a master's wife can breast feed a slave child?
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I asked you to show me where the Qur'an abuses woman.Instead you telling us about some hadith from Tirmidi.Common now. Where does the Qur'an say Muslims must sleep with slaves by force? Slave child? Where did you get that? You are soo confused.I will give you my email address and I will take you step by step explaining things to you.You mixing too many issue and confusing yourself.
I never said Muhammad beat his wives , but the Koran says you can beat your wife, and you said I can cry and scream but women and men will never be the same, that too surprised me as I never claimed that we will ever be the same,.
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I made the point about kicking and screaming when I was explaining the witness issue, not about beating woman.You see why I say you confusing yourself?
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou can say all that , do you not pick a certain verse when you eat, when you observe RAMADAN,? RAMADAN is not in the all the verses, when you separate men from women in worship aren't you guys hand picking one verse,. Do not try some religious acrobatics as if when you practice a certain service it is written in all the KORAN, when you take off your shoes when you enter the Mosque that is hand picking one verse. So it is right when you do that but we must not do that. Hypocrisy at its best.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm if you allowed to beat your wife, and confine them until death, then they are no longer your equals, they are your property, that is if you have the absolute power over a person and you can do as you please, something you cannot do to another, they are reduced to a property, yes the Koran does not say they are your property per se, but at the end tha is that.
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Who said woman should be beaten until death?What are you talking about? How can God adviocate something like that? The husbans doesnt have absolute right to the wife, God does. The wife is allowed to play her role as a wife in a marriage provided the husband fulfills his Islamic role.Please get this out of you mind....nowhere does the Qur'an say a husband can beat the wife to death,This is NOT true! Woman and man are equal in Islam spiritually, there is no defference made.However physically there are DIFFERENT, as such they have DIFFERENT roles.Can you understand that?
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou are not discussing out of good faith, what is the use of me posting Koran scriptures and then after that you do not attend to them instead you telli us that I am hand- picking verses , if not saying I am taking them out of context, I asked you to put the verses I have quoted in context you did not, instead I am the only one here doing the bending, you ask me to bring a qoute and I do but you do not even try to do a little bending, is because you are a male or what?
Now promise me that when I post the verse you will put in context and explain how wrong I was for qouting
Let's start with this qouation from Koran I V/15 if any woman is guilty of lewdness... Confine them until death claims them
XXIV/6-7 as for those who accuse their wives but have n witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies
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Solm
@ MzabalazoYou can say all that , do you not pick a certain verse when you eat, when you observe RAMADAN,? RAMADAN is not in the all the verses, when you separate men from women in worship aren't you guys hand picking one verse,. Do not try some religious acrobatics as if when you practice a certain service it is written in all the KORAN, when you take off your shoes when you enter the Mosque that is hand picking one verse. So it is right when you do that but we must not do that. Hypocrisy at its best.
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No I dont pick a certain verse when I eat or fast in Ramadaan.You need to know the basics of Islam first Mzabalazo before you comment about anything really.The Qur'an rarely goes into details.I tells us to fast but not the details of fasting.You get the details from the Sunnah or practice of the Prophet. This is why you cant cut and paste verses here. The separation of women from man in the mosque is debatable.At the time of the Prophet women prayed with men but at the back but now some mosques are not even allowing women inside them.This is not how things should be done.Thats why Im saying there is a lot of cultural things people imported into Islam that dont belong there.This are issues Muslims debate among themselves a lot.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou do not read your Koran that is why you get so flabbergasted when I qoute
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Mzabalazo
Solm
Let's start with this qouation from Koran I V/15 if any woman is guilty of lewdness... Confine them until death claims them
XXIV/6-7 as for those who accuse their wives but have n witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies
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Solm be practical take your Koran and read these verse and put them in a context, do not say you cannot do this and that, just prove me wrong put them in a context make them say something else other than what I say they mean
explain them the way they are explained, or the way you understand them.
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Mzabalazo
SolmUse the practice of The prophet in explaining these scriptures, I don't care how you do it, explain them, give us what they mean
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Mzabalazo
SoldCan you put us at rest, explain to us what these scriptures mean, before I post the slave ones, because I find it very daring to be told one and the same thing, so please give us the explaination
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Mzabalazo
Sold
Can you put us at rest, explain to us what these scriptures mean, before I post the slave ones, because I find it very daring to be told one and the same thing, so please give us the explaination
@ Solm sorry for misspelling your name
I am waiting for a right way of reading the Koran, up have read it many a times than me and you understand and know it, so please explain what the above verses mean, you cannot say I am qouating them wrongly and not show us how to use them, explain to us what do they mean when they say a man's witness should be as strong as four witnesses against his wive, bear that in mind that I know what Muhammad said on witness and disputes, which is different for women. Please I beg you.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoYou are not discussing out of good faith, what is the use of me posting Koran scriptures and then after that you do not attend to them instead you telli us that I am hand- picking verses , if not saying I am taking them out of context, I asked you to put the verses I have quoted in context you did not, instead I am the only one here doing the bending, you ask me to bring a qoute and I do but you do not even try to do a little bending, is because you are a male or what?
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The difficulty here Mzabalazo is that you want me to discuss something with you when you dont have all the information you need to interpret a verse.This is the point I have been making.You need to learn the tools of interpretation first.
Now promise me that when I post the verse you will put in context and explain how wrong I was for qouting
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Ok but I wont be able to do that now.You want me to do a commentary on the verse, you looking at 3-5 pages.That I cant do here.Thats why I offered that I give you my email so I can hve time to address your concerns in full.You dont deal with Qur'an like that.
Let's start with this qouation from Koran I V/15 if any woman is guilty of lewdness... Confine them until death claims them
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There is a difference of opinion on what this verse is dealing with.Other scholars argue that its talking about adultry or fornication.Other scholars argue that it doesnt deal with those cases because already the punishment for adultry is prescribed.These scholars argue that the verse is talking about crimes committed between woman.I would think its female to female interrcourse as the wording is structured to address two female subjects.What the verse is saying is that if there is a claim of such a nature against a woman, a trial has to be conducted and witness presented.If she is found guilty, they have to be confined to a particular place untill death claim them or God decide some punishment for them.Few things to consider here.Crimes done in public are punishable under Shariah, there are prescribed punishment for them.The reason for this is that Shariah discourages public commission of sins or crimes. Such a crime or sin harms the community as a whole.This is why its punished, it has a deterant purpose punishing for crimes in public.Those committed in private, as it appears to be the case with this verse you quote, Shariah doesnt concern itself about UNLESS they spill over into the public domain.If they are private, then its for God to punish on Judgment Day.If they spill over to the public than they punisheable.I will research for you the circumstance leading to the revelation of this verse.By the way, the first that this verse particularly addresses woman, it doesnt mean the man guilty of the same crimes cant be punished in a similar manner.I will find out the details for you.
XXIV/6-7 as for those who accuse their wives but have n witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies
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This is about legalities, about evidence.Whats your problem with this?
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Solm
@ MzabalazoGood, very good now.You separating issues and mentioning one thing at the time.You doing much better now.I need to get ready to break my fast in 30 mins or so.Im going to ask you to release me soon.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoI am waiting for a right way of reading the Koran, up have read it many a times than me and you understand and know it, so please explain what the above verses mean, you cannot say I am qouating them wrongly and not show us how to use them, explain to us what do they mean when they say a man's witness should be as strong as four witnesses against his wive, bear that in mind that I know what Muhammad said on witness and disputes, which is different for women. Please I beg you.
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I didnt say you quoting them wrongly, I said your APPROACH to them is wrong.I made this point soo many times already.Dont make me repeat it please Im the one begging you now. About the reason why it says a man's testimony four times.I studies Law myself,even in our courts, there is scepticism about a single witness evidence.For example, if you married and you husband says Mzabalazo my wife did XYZ in an Islamic court.Because he doesnt have evidence other than his testimony.The verse makes him take an aoth by God 4 times, before his testimony can be entertained.This is to avoid condemning a wife to a punishment when there is no evidence convicting her.This is why the 4 times.This is about fiqh or Islamic jurisprudence.Like I told you, Islam places greater emphasis on justice.It doesnt compromise on justify.Therefore Muslim judges are very cautious with a single witness evidence.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoI need to prepare to break my fast now.Feel free to email me sydm76@gmail.com.You can email me anytime on anything about Islam, you or anyone here.
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Mzabalazo
To the supporters of SolmYou can defend Islam that is your constitutional rights but it is also my constitutional right to criticize responsibly. Solm wants me to write all the pages of Koran, and not qoute a single verse relevant to what I am presenting, and he uses the old trick in the book that the Koran is so special it cannot be understood until you understand the concept Koran, that is ridiculous and absurd. I write the whole Suravand it will not change anything, when you reach the verses I have quoted they will the same. This is the old trick in the book, this is not a book of recipe whereby you need to read from the start in order to get the recipe, the fight,k#ill infidels won't change just because I have written the whole Koran, they won't. He doesn't even attempt to explain how he understand these verse linked to the whole context, why just because there is no whole context. You can support him alright and I am cool with it.
There we go I will just write one page of Sura 25-al Furkan Mecca-77verses: and see if we will unlock the "mystery of the context" :
In the name of God all compassionate, the Merciful
Blessed be who hath sent down Al Fulkan on his servant, that to all creatures he may be a Warner , His the Kingdom of the Heavens and of the earth! No son hath he begotten!........ They have adopted gods besides him which have created nothing..... Say: he hath sent it down who know etch the secrets of the Heavens and of the earth. He truly is Gracious the Merciful..... Had we pleased, we had raised up a Warner in every city. Give not way therefore to the infidels,but by means of this Koran fight against them with a might strife. And He it is is who hath let loose the two seas, the one sweet, fresh and the other salt, bitter and hath put an interspace between them, and the barrier that cannot be passed, And He who hath created man of water, and established them between them ties of kindness and affinity: and potent is thy Lord.Yet beside God they worship what can neither help nor hurt them: And the Infidel is Satan's helper against his Lord...
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I can go on and on but each verse does not change any verse nor does it makes the other lighter or stronger, we read words we speak words and both spoken they translate the emotions, feelings and ideas of the writer or the speaker, no word changes anything. There is context missed if you doubt that please purchase your own Koran and read every Sura. I rest my case for now.
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Mzabalazo
SolmThat is not justice if one person's witness is as 4 people, that is unfair, justice is as it is practice in our world one witness equals one witness that is why in some cases it becomes "your word against mine" that is unless there is no other witness or evidence to support your argument the case cannot be judged in favour of of the plaintif. Thus if there was any justice at all in this principle we would be using it. No one whatsoever , and this a specially made for wives accessed by their husband. Swearing in the holy book is not the proof that one is telling the truth, we see that happening all the time, it can only help in punishing the liar if and only if they are discovered lying. So that does not hold the water.
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Good, very good now.You separating issues and mentioning one thing at the time.You doing much better now.I need to get ready to break my fast in 30 mins or so.Im going to ask you to release me soon.
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Another strategy, you are trying to says I was mixing things , why have I managed to address your concerns without waiting for you to separate things,myou just patronizing me. There is no mixing of issues, if you were honest you would have addressed all the issues raised , again they are not many . You would have said this scripture is this way and that is this way and so on. And again your explaination is your own interpretation trying to defend the undefendable, if that is what Muhammad meant we would have just written so, you are no different from Christians, you cannot change what is written for an example Muhammad. Can speak for himself he does not need a lawyer to interpret for his. Check this out : Sura 24 :30 Speak unto the believing women that they refrain their eyes and observe continence; and that they display not their ornaments , except those which are external, and that they throw their veils over their blossoms and display not their ornaments except to their fathers or their husbands or their sons...or their slaves, or male domestic who have no natural force... This is as clear as the other scripture that I have quoted , you cannot add it to suit your explaination it is self- explanatory just as the scripture to have tried so much to decorate in order to hide male chauvinism that it displays. These scriptures are self - explanatory stop doctoring them.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoTo the supporters of Solm
You can defend Islam that is your constitutional rights but it is also my constitutional right to criticize responsibly.
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What is responsible with your criticism here? You have made up stuff and cut and pasted verses to feed your pre-existing mentality.That is nothing response about that. I dont mind you being critical of Islam, thats welcome.However distortion is something else.Islam doesnt axcept its followers to just accept things, it asks us to reflect and ponder.Im more than happy to entertain a debate with you or anyone on Islam.
Solm wants me to write all the pages of Koran, and not qoute a single verse relevant to what I am presenting, and he uses the old trick in the book that the Koran is so special it cannot be understood until you understand the concept Koran, that is ridiculous and absurd.
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To make you aware of the sciences of interpreting the Qur' an is NOT a trick.People take 4 full years to study this and you want to overlook it and treat the Qur' an the way YOU want it to be.It doesnt work that way dear.Well claerly you dont understand it and I have trying to help you the whole time.I didnt say understand the concept of Qur'an.I said you need to know the tools of interpreting it.Why is this difficult to sink in your mind? You have made a mistake of having a misinformed opinion of Qur'an, you have drawn your own skewed conclusions.You dont understand ONE science, I have been repaeting it over and over and over again and still you dont get it.What about the rest? You and Al qaeda are cut from the same cloth.You both have twisted minds.
I write the whole Suravand it will not change anything, when you reach the verses I have quoted they will the same. This is the old trick in the book, this is not a book of recipe whereby you need to read from the start in order to get the recipe, the fight,k#ill infidels won't change just because I have written the whole Koran, they won't.
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Do you know the people that verse you quoting is referring to?This is what Im telling you but Im not succeding. Qur'an NEVER says Muslims must initiate fights with infedils ( who were Quraish), this is self-defence.But you dont tell the people you posting for this.Why?Even when Muslims are given permission to fight in self-defence.The Qur'an cautions against being excessive in your retaliation.It says God doesnt like excesses.This again you intentionally leave out.Why?
He doesn't even attempt to explain how he understand these verse linked to the whole context, why just because there is no whole context. You can support him alright and I am cool with it.
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LOL.I did that already.Just because you dont like the answer it doesnt mean I didnt give you one.By the way if you want to know the meaning of a verse, dont use translations.Arabic is a very rich laguage and its a great disservice to use English to translate it.English is weak and shallow.Its really not the correct medium to understand issues in the Qur'an.Yes they will give you an IDEA but never the same thing.Every verse has a context.
There we go I will just write one page of Sura 25-al Furkan Mecca-77verses: and see if we will unlock the "mystery of the context" :
In the name of God all compassionate, the Merciful
Blessed be who hath sent down Al Fulkan on his servant, that to all creatures he may be a Warner , His the Kingdom of the Heavens and of the earth! No son hath he begotten!........ They have adopted gods besides him which have created nothing..... Say: he hath sent it down who know etch the secrets of the Heavens and of the earth. He truly is Gracious the Merciful..... Had we pleased, we had raised up a Warner in every city. Give not way therefore to the infidels,but by means of this Koran fight against them with a might strife. And He it is is who hath let loose the two seas, the one sweet, fresh and the other salt, bitter and hath put an interspace between them, and the barrier that cannot be passed, And He who hath created man of water, and established them between them ties of kindness and affinity: and potent is thy Lord.Yet beside God they worship what can neither help nor hurt them: And the Infidel is Satan's helper against his Lord...
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Do you know what the verse mean when it talks about the meeting of the two seas? Whats the point of quoting this verse by the way?
I can go on and on but each verse does not change any verse nor does it makes the other lighter or stronger, we read words we speak words and both spoken they translate the emotions, feelings and ideas of the writer or the speaker, no word changes anything. There is context missed if you doubt that please purchase your own Koran and read every Sura. I rest my case for now.
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There are verses that change others.Becareful uttering things you know nothing about, thread very very carefully. You cant get the emotions or feelings with English translation, the translations water down points being made.However if you want to hold your own opinions on Islam, regardless of the things brought before you.There is little I can do about it.
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Mzabalazo
SolmI do not need to know what the meetings of the seas as it is not relevant to my life, what I was dining was to simply show you that your 4 years of study does change what we read, you studied what you wanted to believe what you wanted so, those studies you are doing does not even change tha fact that Islam is divided into Sunni and Shi'a worship and all of you study for 4 year and come as divided as ever in your interpretation and practices so your study won't change the words and in the Koran. So it does serve me any better your studying of religious dogma.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm
That is not justice if one person's witness is as 4 people, that is unfair, justice is as it is practice in our world one witness equals one witness that is why in some cases it becomes "your word against mine" that is unless there is no other witness or evidence to support your argument the case cannot be judged in favour of of the plaintif. Thus if there was any justice at all in this principle we would be using it. No one whatsoever , and this a specially made for wives accessed by their husband. Swearing in the holy book is not the proof that one is telling the truth, we see that happening all the time, it can only help in punishing the liar if and only if they are discovered lying. So that does not hold the water.
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The verse says if a husband accuses the wife of something and ALL he has is his word and NO EVIDENCE.It says the husband must bear witness 4 times over for his testimony to be accepted this is NOT to say its the only consideration when convicting her.This is about the law of evidence, what evidence can be ADMISSABLE in court.Admitting evidence is NOT the same as convicting.That eveidence or testimony has to be tested against the wife's version and her evidence of she has any.This is what the verse is dealing with.It sound fair and just to me.What is your problem with this? Guess what? We do have single witness evidence rule in our law. Swearing on the Qur'an or bearing false witness is a very serious sin in Islam.Its one of the major sins. I dont think you understand what this verse or me what Im saying.
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Mzabalazo
SolmI can see the emotions and feelings from Moslem, veiled women, separate worship, men given the upper hand to dominate women just like all the the 3 Abrahamic religions Hebrew/ Jewish religion, Christainity and Islam, I can see the emotion and feeling from the division of Islam just like ZCC having the bird and the star, so you have displayed the emotions and feeling good enough that I do not even want to find myself on such an environment.
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Mzabalazo
SolmProvide the evidence that backs your statement that there is also an evidence required , base your argument with an evidence from Koran,mod not just throw words that are not there in the scripture at hand, provide your support from the Koran, I cannot allow you you come up with un substinciated statements., provide a scripture as this verse does not anything like that.,maybe you got that from another verse provide it
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Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm
I do not need to know what the meetings of the seas as it is not relevant to my life, what I was dining was to simply show you that your 4 years of study does change what we read, you studied what you wanted to believe what you wanted so, those studies you are doing does not even change tha fact that Islam is divided into Sunni and Shi'a worship and all of you study for 4 year and come as divided as ever in your interpretation and practices so your study won't change the words and in the Koran. So it does serve me any better your studying of religious dogma
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If you think its not relevant then you missed the point.Studying the sciences changes many things.Now you bringing the Sunni and Shia issue.You see what Im saying about you throwing everytihng to me?LOL.I dont know what you are trying to do.We were talking about interpretation but now you jumping to Shia and Sunni pilitics.Its fine I will indulge you.The Sunni and Shia issue is NOT theological, they have political differences.There is nothing wrong with having differences of opinions. It doesnt serve you better? You cant understand ONE science but you want to take a swipe at all the scinces.LOL.Whatever makes you sleep Mzabalazo.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm
I can see the emotions and feelings from Moslem, veiled women, separate worship, men given the upper hand to dominate women just like all the the 3 Abrahamic religions Hebrew/ Jewish religion, Christainity and Islam, I can see the emotion and feeling from the division of Islam just like ZCC having the bird and the star, so you have displayed the emotions and feeling good enough that I do not even want to find myself on such an environment.
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You underlooking one thing.Before Islam women were treated as sub-humans that couldnt own property.Girls were burried alive because families feared the burden of having to bring up a girl child who has no benefit to them.Islam changed all this by lifting up the status of woman and granting them rights.Islam shunned the practice of burrying girls alive by outlawing this practice.When you want to measure the status of woman in Islam, do so against the pre- Islamic period.Dont use the 21st century norms to judge the status of woman 1500 years ago.Islam doesnt oppress woman, it treats them differently as they are different.This is not necessarily unfair.Woman enjoy far more rights than man in certain issues.For example. if Im married, as a husband I dont have any claim to what my wife owns.What she acquires is hers and hers alone.What I acquire as a husband she has a claim in.SHe can even charge me for breasfeeding our child.This is how far this favours woman.You dont hear man making noise about this.
Islam has divisions.However dont judge Islam by Muslims, it wont be the accurate reflection of Islam.Thats why I asked you to use the model of the Prophe if you want to measure Islam.He was the perfect example of what it means to be the best Muslim.Muslims have issues, some serious others not, but if we all had to model our behaviour according to the Prophet, all these differences will disappear.
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Mzabalazo
SolmSwearing in a bible is a major sin if you are lying and I do not know that you know what that involves, so it is no different, but people do that all the time and they getaway with . That is why people's hands are cut in Saudi but not all of them are caught some getaway with it in all religions, if not so we wouldn't be having prisons filled with Moslems in Moslem countries and Christians in secular countries and Jewish as in worship in ISrael, as a person who is studying law that fact cannot elude you. Lawyers have helped Christians, Moslems and Jewish as in religion, getaway with crime, and some innocent people in all these religions have been wrongly punished that is the fact of life that no religion can dispute so do not tell me that how serious it is to swear falsely, people do that all the time, it doesn't matter whether it is the secular courts or religious courts, that is why we have people bombing others and shooting others at scholols, religion with its dogma has failed to make people better citizens instead the religion has fuelled the skirmishes, CHRISTIANS AGAINST CHRISTIANS, MOSLEMS AGAINST MOSLEMS, CHRISTIANS AGAINST MOSLEMS ANS VICA VERSA, MOSLEMS AGAINST BUDDHIST HINDUS AGAINST MOSLEMS. So I don't purchase the swearing on an religious book it hold sno water.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm
Provide the evidence that backs your statement that there is also an evidence required , base your argument with an evidence from Koran,mod not just throw words that are not there in the scripture at hand, provide your support from the Koran, I cannot allow you you come up with un substinciated statements., provide a scripture as this verse does not anything like that.,maybe you got that from another verse provide it
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Evidence required from whom? The wife or husband? What you also need to know here is that there are 4 sources of Islamic law.1) Qur'an, 2) Sunnah ( there is difference of opinion here whether its Sunnah of the Prophet or community) or mannerism, 3) Ijma or consensus of the scholars, 4) Ijtihad or analogical deductions. I can go into details in each one of these if you want.But all these constitute the body of Islamic jusrisprudence or fiqh.
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Mzabalazo
SolmDo not play that trick on me I have verses right now that show how the Muhammad in the Koran says how the wealth should be divided, women a given less, and if a woman is the only one left to inherit her fathers' property she get far much less, what is that? You call that treating women better, in my father' s will everything is divided evenly amongst two girls and two boys , if my father was the Prophet me and my younger sister were going to get less. Veiling women just because men cannot be faithful, we have to cover even the hands for what? Islam is not liberating women no religion is doing that, have you read the restrictions given to women, I don't think you have, if you did you wouldn't not praise Islam as the liberator of women. You yourself were shouting just 3 hours ago that men and women are not the same and will never be the same , just because a woman exposed the unjust scripture to woman.
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Mzabalazo
SolmAs long as there is a difference of opinion that shows that your laws just like the Christain ones are man made, why should Allah allow for a difference of opinions in the execution of his commands. That is hallow.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm
Swearing in a bible is a major sin if you are lying and I do not know that you know what that involves, so it is no different, but people do that all the time and they getaway with .
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An Islamic court has to hear BOTH side of the story before convicting.It can never convict only based on a husband's version of events. This will be the travesty of justice.The fact that as a husband my evidence is admitted, it doesnt mean its the end of the story.It simply means it passed the REQUIREMENT test to be PRESENTED in court.Please understand this, it doesnt mean a conviction right away.
That is why people's hands are cut in Saudi but not all of them are caught some getaway with it in all religions, if not so we wouldn't be having prisons filled with Moslems in Moslem countries and Christians in secular countries and Jewish as in worship in ISrael, as a person who is studying law that fact cannot elude you
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Saudi only practises 'Shariah" law to poor people.Those fat corrupt Kings are NOT subject to Shariah, they do as they please.Also when Muslim countries say they practice 100% Shariah, what this means is SHariah will be used as a political tool to silince dissent.So you need to know these things first before getting carried away with all the Shariah hype.Those fat corrupt Kings do far more harm in Muslim communities than people they cut hands or behead.If there is anyone worth beheading, its them, not the poor people.
Lawyers have helped Christians, Moslems and Jewish as in religion, getaway with crime, and some innocent people in all these religions have been wrongly punished that is the fact of life that no religion can dispute so do not tell me that how serious it is to swear falsely, people do that all the time, it doesn't matter whether it is the secular courts or religious courts, that is why we have people bombing others and shooting others at scholols, religion with its dogma has failed to make people better citizens instead the religion has fuelled the skirmishes, CHRISTIANS AGAINST CHRISTIANS, MOSLEMS AGAINST MOSLEMS, CHRISTIANS AGAINST MOSLEMS ANS VICA VERSA, MOSLEMS AGAINST BUDDHIST HINDUS AGAINST MOSLEMS. So I don't purchase the swearing on an religious book it hold sno water
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The system starts to breakdown if its used subjectively for political reasons.In most cases religion has little to do with skirmishes,especially in Muslim countries. The collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WW1 caused a lot of chaos and vacuum in Muslim countries.Thats why you see groups either kidnapping or pirating or indiscriminately killing people.This is all because of the absence of authority.In a proper Muslim system, swearing on a Qur'an is a very serious business.Then again, as I explained, swearing in is not equal to conviction.
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Mzabalazo
Solm at alKoran 4:11 Allah directs you as regards your children's inheritance : to a male a portion equal that of two females, if only daughters two or more, their share is two thirds of the inheritance. If only one daughter her share is only half. What a so called better treatment of women
Koran 4:176... If a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: if there are two sisters , they shall have two thirds of the inheritance, if there ate brothers and sisters the males takes twice the shares of females.
That is not making a woman's life better at all.
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Mzabalazo
Croatia was fuelled by religious in tolarence of Christians against Moslems, the b#ombing of Buddhist relics was by the Taliban was religious fuelled, the attack of The USA and Britian was fuelled by religious fa#natics who happen to associate themselves with Islam religion. The attacks of caravans by Muhammed was fuelled by religion as he states it clearly in the Koran that the unbelievers should be attacked and spoils be shared, one of Muhammed's wife was a spoil of an attacked caravan. You cannot take religion out of the equation. Because today Palestinian are struggling because of a religious claim by Isreali , always religion has a bigger role in wars.Report Abuse
Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm
Do not play that trick on me I have verses right now that show how the Muhammad in the Koran says how the wealth should be divided, women a given less, and if a woman is the only one left to inherit her fathers' property she get far much less, what is that?
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Im not playing tricks on you, you just dont have enough information to go by understanding the meaning of those verses.This is why its not making sense to you.Let me explain.As I said both male and females have different roles in Islam.A husband has his own rights and obligation, so is the wife. One of the primary responsibilities of a husband or male is to provide for the wife or female. The responsibility of providing is squarely on the husband.This is why husbands or males are ENTRUSTED with a bigger share because they provide.This doesnt mean the male or husband gets a bigger share and thats it.No.It means after taking a bigger share he has an OBLIGATION to look after or provide for the female.This is the part you missing.Woman have no responsibility to provide, thats why they can a smaller share.The share they get is theirs and ONLY theirs.Do you understand?
You call that treating women better, in my father' s will everything is divided evenly amongst two girls and two boys , if my father was the Prophet me and my younger sister were going to get less.
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I explained this already.
Veiling women just because men cannot be faithful, we have to cover even the hands for what? Islam is not liberating women no religion is doing that, have you read the restrictions given to women, I don't think you have, if you did you wouldn't not praise Islam as the liberator of women. You yourself were shouting just 3 hours ago that men and women are not the same and will never be the same , just because a woman exposed the unjust scripture to woman.
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Covering serves many purposes in both sides.Who said woman must cover hands? Islam only require woman to cover their aurah or private areas: this is the hair, neck all the way down and not wear tight clothes.We man have roving eyes, this is a natural fact.When we see something unbecoming we cant control our gazes.This is disruptive.If a lady is covered properly, there is no show and no disturbance.On the other hand, as a lady.Would you rather have men drooling over you for your looks or character?Would you rather be reduced to a physical object of attraction or you want something depper than that.Lets be honest now.Muslim man have taken this covering far beyond whats required Islamically, they have taken it to meet their cultural expectations.This is where the problem comes in.Islam has its own culture, it doesnt need to be supplemented with other cultures.
You yourself were shouting just 3 hours ago that men and women are not the same and will never be the same , just because a woman exposed the unjust scripture to woman.
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There is nothing unjust.Where is injustice?
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Mzabalazo
SolmThis proves that religion be it Christianity or Islam not forgetting Hindusm, is not a solution, it does not bring peace and infant it can be manipulated to serve the rich, establish corrupt government. There is country that put religion upfront that upholds human justice. USA under G.Bush was fuelled by religion and greed (axis of evil) in attacking Iraq, Saddam could not be made a better ruler by religion, so what is all the fuss with religion be it Islam or Christianity making the lives of people better? Nothing all is just a pipe dream based on Middle easterners claiming they were given revelation, others been the Messiah and others claiming they are the chosen nations all this not on. Because non of these religions made life better, instead we Africans were taken as slaves and forced to convert by both Islam and Christainity,ntoday we have Arabs occupying Egypt,Tunisia, Mali, Sudan, Morocco,Mauritania,Chad and Lybia instead of Africans, they maimed Africans and sold most as slaves, the few remaining there are subjugated it does not matter even if they are Moslems they are treated as inferior . Christianity did the same to us.bwhat was the use of Muhammed receiving the prophecy went it never helped the destitute infidels who had to subjugated until they pay tax later on lost their land, where was the All Merciful Allah? I do not purchase what you guys are giving us, religion is hipocracybat it's best, the real culprit in our misery.
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Solm
@ MzabalazoCroatia was fuelled by religious in tolarence of Christians against Moslems, the b#ombing of Buddhist relics was by the Taliban was religious fuelled, the attack of The USA and Britian was fuelled by religious fa#natics who happen to associate themselves with Islam religion.
You mixing too many dissimilar issues now. We dont know who attacked America on 9/11 do you? Neither do we know who attacked Britain.There are much more sinister forces at play here than what you read on the media.Personally Im not convinced that a group of guys in a cave can pull off an organised attacke like that.There was just too many things that had to be aggreeable with those attacks to be done by Bin Laden and comp.I just dont buy that.The same with Britain. As for Taliban I can accept that the dustruction of that Buddha statue was religously motivated.Afghanistan is a Muslim country, overwhelmingly Muslim country and idolarty is forbidden in Islam.I can understand why the Taliban destroyed it.
The attacks of caravans by Muhammed was fuelled by religion as he states it clearly in the Koran that the unbelievers should be attacked and spoils be shared, one of Muhammed's wife was a spoil of an attacked caravan. You cannot take religion out of the equation. Because today Palestinian are struggling because of a religious claim by Isreali , always religion has a bigger role in wars.
The attacks of caravans by Muhammed was fuelled by religion as he states it clearly in the Koran that the unbelievers should be attacked and spoils be shared, one of Muhammed's wife was a spoil of an attacked caravan. You cannot take religion out of the equation
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What Im objecting to is you ignoring the context of the caravan raiding. The Quraish oppressed Muslims for 13 years in Makkah and Muslims persevered because God hadnt given them a command to retaliate.So they had to escape to Ethopia some of them under very harsh conditions.They rest had to immigrate to Medina when the hardship were becaming unbearable.Only when Muslims had established a base in Medina were they commanded to fight.Also the fighting was not just for the sake of fighting, it was to liberate Makkah and destroy all the idolators that were being worshipped in the Kabah.This is what you missing.The raiding of caravans was an attempt to economically cripple the Quraish. The same way America is imposing sanctions on countries it disagrees with.This is the context you missing.When Makkah was liberated, there were no more raiding of caravans belonging to Quraish.I dont know how much Muslim history you know.
Because today Palestinian are struggling because of a religious claim by Isreali , always religion has a bigger role in wars.
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This is a different issue all together.Palestine is occupied by Zionists not because of Judaism.Judaism is against Zionism.
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Mzabalazo
SolmThat is real male chauvinism, what would happen if the woman gets an equal share? Women for years have been looking after the family, why should a male be given more to look after a woman, that is male chauvinist, and never ever say I do not understand, I understand alright it I didn't I would have agreed with male chauvinism of Quran /Koran, we women we are not disabled we can take care of ourselves, we're kept into lower positions by you males for centuries and we were told lies that we cannot take care of ourselves, Shaka was raised by a single woman Nandi after Senzangakhona chased them away from his kraal even the relatives of Nandi did not want her back, we had heroines like Mkabayi ka Jama and Manthatise of Lesotho and Joan of Arc in France, I detest when a civilized man like you still perpertuate male chauvinism with scriptures thta devalue women's gains. We are never going back there only those women who still kept in religious yolk will satisfy you're religious male ego, our constitution is not purchasing all that we're free. Now and we will keep making those gains, poor women with veils I pity them, they take that nonsense. I understand female oppression because I am a female and therefore I do understand scripture s that perpertuate inequalities amongst sex#es
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Mzabalazo
SolmYour argument is that skirmishes have little to do with religion . I was giving you the evidence thata religion have more to do with skirmishes that you thought, that is why I quoted Judaism, Christainity !Hinduism and Islam. The stopping of attacking caravans happened too late for the innocent people who were ki#lled and if Allah was really mercifully he wouldn't have let is prophet, a holy man k#ill people and loot their belongings including wives and children in the first place, just because they hold a different religious view. That was unspeakable it is similar to what some of ou Caucasian countrymen saying to us stop holding on apartheid crimes they are long gone. Muhammed and his band of religious people committed injustices to others, if there is hell as the Koran preaches why then they did wait the creators of these infidels to k#ill them himself instead of doing that themselves, this is travesty at its best
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Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm
This proves that religion be it Christianity or Islam not forgetting Hindusm, is not a solution, it does not bring peace and infant it can be manipulated to serve the rich, establish corrupt government. There is country that put religion upfront that upholds human justice.
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This is not entirely true.Jews and Muslims co-existed in Spain for 400 years peacefully. When Muslims were kicked out of Spain by Christians, Jews chose to leave with Muslims.They didnt want to stay under Christian rule.So religion didnt do that bad up untill 100 years or so.Therefore Im not going to use the history of the last 1000 years to judge religion, history didnt start in the last 100 years.I cant ignore the history spanning over 1400 years.That wouldnt be fair.Religion is a solution to many ills suffered bu humanity.Jews and Muslims co-existed in Palestine for an even longer period.
USA under G.Bush was fuelled by religion and greed (axis of evil) in attacking Iraq, Saddam could not be made a better ruler by religion, so what is all the fuss with religion be it Islam or Christianity making the lives of people better?
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Saddam was removed for oil.It had nothing to do with religion.This is the danger of how you deal with things.You make judgment calls based on limited information and this is where you make mistakes.There is always a bigger picture.
Nothing all is just a pipe dream based on Middle easterners claiming they were given revelation, others been the Messiah and others claiming they are the chosen nations all this not on. Because non of these religions made life better, instead we Africans were taken as slaves and forced to convert by both Islam and Christainity,ntoday we have Arabs occupying Egypt,Tunisia, Mali, Sudan, Morocco,Mauritania,Chad and Lybia instead of Africans, they maimed Africans and sold most as slaves, the few remaining there are subjugated it does not matter even if they are Moslems they are treated as inferior .
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There is truth in religion.There is a purpose religion serves.It not as simple as you making it out to be.If you want to talk about slavery, start with the African chiefs who were SELLING their brethen to Portugeese first.Thats where the slave thing started.Nobody came here to took Africans by force, people came here to BUY slaves from chiefs.Read your history carefully.Why are you overlooking the role your chiefs played?
Christianity did the same to us.bwhat was the use of Muhammed receiving the prophecy went it never helped the destitute infidels who had to subjugated until they pay tax later on lost their land, where was the All Merciful Allah?
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This is not correct.Muslims bought African slaves who were Muslims, Bilaal from Abyssinia is a good example.The lady that brought the Prophet up Umm Khulthum was an African woman.She took care of him and looked after him and he referred to her as 'my mother'. Allah is Merciful to those that take Him as their Lord.Those who reject and dont accept Him, what difference is the Mercy of Allah making to them.They dont recognise Him anyway.
I do not purchase what you guys are giving us, religion is hipocracybat it's best, the real culprit in our misery.
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Again that is an over simplification of things.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYour argument is that skirmishes have little to do with religion . I was giving you the evidence that religion have more to do with skirmishes that you thought, that is why I quoted Judaism, Christainity !Hinduism and Islam. The stopping of attacking caravans happened too late for the innocent people who were ki#lled. And if Allah was really mercifully he wouldn't have let his prophet, a holy man k#ill people and loot their belongings including wi#ves and children in the first place, just because they hold a different religious view. That was unspeakable it is similar to what some of our Caucasian countrymen saying to us stop holding on apartheid crimes they are long gone. Muhammed and his band of religious people committed injustices to others, if there is h#ell as the Koran preaches why then they did wait the creators of these infidels to k#ill them himself instead of doing that themselves, this is travesty at its best
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Nyongoyamavenda
Islam as a religion has produced so many murders*** under the many names which are all fighting a certain kind of jihad but they always tend to attack innocent civilians,in many countries where Islam is majority Christian are bombed and massacred** just for being christians.i therfore trully believe that Islam is anti-Christ and has nothing to do with God Jehova but everything to do with god LuciferReport Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmThis is a joke you qoute one woman maybe ten or hundred, how many African people suffered under the banner of Kafir or infidels. You are over simplifying yourself, evenness during the apartheid times the Africans who were taken care of by South African caucasians, eg Donald Woods made sure that the story of Biko gets justice outside the country, Hellen Zille made sure that she accompany Nontsikelelo Biko as her madam to the morgue and took pictures of my hero. But that does not I repeat that does not mean that The marjority of the SA caucasians did not treated us badly, sh#ot at our uncles and aunts, arrested our parents. You cannot tell me about a lucky African woman and try to down play the bloo#d of Africans in the hands of your religion since Muhammed 's epoch., you can cheat others not those who knows their history.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
That is real male chauvinism, what would happen if the woman gets an equal share? Women for years have been looking after the family, why should a male be given more to look after a woman, that is male chauvinist, and never ever say I do not understand, I understand alright it I didn't I would have agreed with male chauvinism of Quran /Koran, we women we are not disabled we can take care of ourselves, we're kept into lower positions by you males for centuries and we were told lies that we cannot take care of ourselves, Shaka was raised by a single woman Nandi after Senzangakhona chased them away from his kraal even the relatives of Nandi did not want her back, we had heroines like Mkabayi ka Jama and Manthatise of Lesotho and Joan of Arc in France, I detest when a civilized man like you still perpertuate male chauvinism with scriptures thta devalue women's gains.
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Im just explaining to you the consequence and the social order when the Qur'an was revealed.All the feminist posturing is not going to change anything really.You telling me here now in the 21st century that you wouldnt agree with the situation 1500 years ago?Really now.Does that make sense to you?By the way its not true that Nandi raised Shaka alone, this is an overstatement.Shake moved from one clan to the next. there was a system and social order that enabled him to grow.Im not perpetuating anything, Im just explaining life THEN. It doesnt help to posture, if you making an argument that the social setup when the Qur'an was revealed is different now and has evolved to a position where females not only work but earn more than man.To then make an argument that re-interpretation of these laws is necessary in accordance with what prevails now.I can go along with that argument because it deals with the merit of the situation.This posturing is really not doing anything.
We are never going back there only those women who still kept in religious yolk will satisfy you're religious male ego, our constitution is not purchasing all that we're free. Now and we will keep making those gains, poor women with veils I pity them, they take that nonsense. I understand female oppression because I am a female and therefore I do understand scripture s that perpertuate inequalities amongst sex#es
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I think you missed the point of the veil completely.Its not about opression.If it was oppressive, why would Western woman, who accept Islam, CHOOSE to wear a veil.Nobody is forcing woman to wear a veil.This is the misconception you have.I dont know who appointed you to be the spokeperson of Muslim woman. They dont these things voluntarily.Why should it matter to you? You dont understand a thing.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou can doctor your Koran, not history Muhammed highly involved in the mU#rdering and enslavement of African. Read the Timbuktu history, the first African library that was built in African and trace down to the occupation of Moslems in the north, its all about slavery and murder of Africans. Do you think all these Moslems that occupied the north of Africa came peacefully and what happened to the majority of Africans over there, I wish you would have visited Sudan in the beginning of The 2000 and see how African Sudanese Moslems were treated I'm Khartoum, most Africans working in Khaurtom had to convert but still the bla#ck Arabs who happen to be Moslems treated them like dirt. You are not going to getaway with doctoriing your religious flawa
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Solm
@ NyongoyamavendaIslam as a religion has produced so many murders*** under the many names which are all fighting a certain kind of jihad but they always tend to attack innocent civilians,in many countries where Islam is majority Christian are bombed and massacred** just for being christians.i therfore trully believe that Islam is anti-Christ and has nothing to do with God Jehova but everything to do with god Lucifer
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If body counts are the way of determining the anti-Christ then we muslims are the last in that ranking.Just in WW2 alone, over 60 million people died.Im not counting WW1, the wars before that.I dont think you want to go down that road buddy.
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Mzabalazo
SolmThat what they said when we were struggling for our emancipation, swart mense will never be free. Women were running in Olympics with burkas or half of it, the olympic threatened male chauvinist like you to surrender. Even if it our male chauvinism does not change, it won't justify the male chauvinism of Islam against women who are no threat at all as the male spices is the one that causing wars, and creating false lies that God gave them the revelation and women should used as their trophies
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
You can doctor your Koran, not history Muhammed highly involved in the mU#rdering and enslavement of African. Read the Timbuktu history, the first African library that was built in African and trace down to the occupation of Moslems in the north, its all about slavery and murder of Africans. Do you think all these Moslems that occupied the north of Africa came peacefully and what happened to the majority of Africans over there, I wish you would have visited Sudan in the beginning of The 2000 and see how African Sudanese Moslems were treated I'm Khartoum, most Africans working in Khaurtom had to convert but still the bla#ck Arabs who happen to be Moslems treated them like dirt. You are not going to getaway with doctoriing your religious flawa
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Im not doctoring anytihng here.Im stating historical facts.Slavery was started by African chiefs selling their brethren to anybody with money.Why are you not commenting on that?Why are you not taking responsibility for that?You just want to keep blaming the whole world.........go ahead keep blaming and see where it gets you.Muslims didnt start slavery.Slavery was long there when Islam came.I dont know why you want to force the issue like it was Islam that started slavery.Look into yourself first before pointing fingers.You want to hold Islam accountable now for slavery that was even there at the time of Jesus, Moses, Joseph, Abraham.Dont take chances now.You want to pin slavery one Islam.No no no sorry.
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Solm
@ Mzabalazo
Good, very good now.You separating issues and mentioning one thing at the time.You doing much better now.I need to get ready to break my fast in 30 mins or so.Im going to ask you to release me soon.
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It doesn't justify your ki# llings and your God just like the Christian God saw nothing wronng with your vicious acts
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Solm
@ Mzabalazo
You throwing everything in one go now.Show me how does Islam reduce woman into properties.Please show me.Dont tell me about Indian culture or Arab culture.Tell me how ISLAM reduce woman into property.Show me where Islam perpertuate slavery?Dont tell me Arabs do this and that, tell me how Islam does that.As for robbing caravans, really now that stooping very low.I dont know how you studied Islam really, Im begining to doubt you know anything here.The raiding of caravans was done because Muslims were is a state of war with the Quraish. It was practice then and still is now, countries at war do raid the enemy camp and loot it.Have you heard the saying ' to the voctor belongs the spoils'? Where do you think its coming from?What do you think it means?
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That is how un peaceful your religion, if you were directed by a merciful God you wouldn't attack caravans that had no soldiers. If you fight witha nation you do not attack civilians delibaretely , your God did not know that, people today are clever than your God, should they delibaretely attack peaceful civilians they are taken to the Hague
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
That what they said when we were struggling for our emancipation, swart mense will never be free.
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You think you the only one who struggled? Anyway what does being free mean when you have a corrupt government who only promises and cant deliever?You have service delivery protests as we speak, 18 years after freedom.What has that brought?
Women were running in Olympics with burkas or half of it, the olympic threatened male chauvinist like you to surrender. Even if it our male chauvinism does not change, it won't justify the male chauvinism of Islam against women who are no threat at all as the male spices is the one that causing wars, and creating false lies that God gave them the revelation and women should used as their trophies
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You just have beef with Islam really. You want to hold Islam accountable for every single thing that you think is wrong.I cant help you in that sickness.
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Mzabalazo
SolmIt does not matter who started it the Cheifs did not force the Moslems to purchase slaves it was their greed and cruelty. Do you want to tell me that if I sell you child you are going to purchase it just because that was not initiated by you? That argument won't stand in the court of law.
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Mzabalazo
SolmI hold Islam for it responsible for and I have stated it clearly and I did not leave any stone unturned, I held all the Monotheist religion accountable for their bits I even includes Hinduism, Iam the one who qouted the Crusade wars that was started by the church, I am the one who qouted Sarajevo Kosovo which was fuelled by Christians don't try and pull hare on the hat for me.
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Solm
@MzabalazoThat is how un peaceful your religion, if you were directed by a merciful God you wouldn't attack caravans that had no soldiers. If you fight witha nation you do not attack civilians delibaretely , your God did not know that, people today are clever than your God, should they delibaretely attack peaceful civilians they are taken to the Hague
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Who was atacking civilians? Who said caravans were not guarded? Who was fighting a nation and attacked civilians deliberately?What are you going on about? Who is clever than God? You?LOL.You cant breathe, move, write this nonsense you spewing if its wasnt for Him.What makes you think you clever than God?You delusional now.This Hague you going on about, did George Bush go there for attacking Iraq and killing over 6 million poeple? Did Tony Blair go there? In case you havent notices, this Hague is there to arrest African leaders and all those non-Western countries.Dont come tell me about your rubbish Hague here that select the people it prosecutes.Tell me ONE Western leader that was ever brought to your lauded Hague for killing people.Just ONE! You need to wake up honestly.
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Mzabalazo
SolmI am free with my corrupt government, at least we start some where, you are just worse than me with your chauvinst religion you are not free you are a slave of an Arabic ideology, and you do not know that.
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Mzabalazo
SolmWhat I like about my nonsense it struck the nerve you puffing with anger , because I do not let you getaway with religious lies , I do not need to any better since I managed to be understood by you, the truth hurts.
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Mzabalazo
SolmCaravans were belonged to traders, soldiers were sent later to protect the trade route after you attacked them, that is the fact. That another nonsense you have to understand
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
It does not matter who started it the Cheifs did not force the Moslems to purchase slaves it was their greed and cruelty. Do you want to tell me that if I sell you child you are going to purchase it just because that was not initiated by you? That argument won't stand in the court of law.
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Which Muslims purchased African slaves.Please name them for me. It doesnt matter that Chiefs profited from slavery? Woohhoo Im glad you not a judge.In African, the Protugeese started the slave trading, not Muslims.Muslims came to seek shelter in Abyssinia from persecution, NOT to enslave.There is nothing you getting right.Every information you have is not factual.You want to hold anyone accountable for slavery?Start with your chiefs, the Portugeese, the French, Spanish, English, Americans.Even Arabs pre-Islam never traded in slavery to the extent these countries did.Stop obssessing with Muslims who never traded not bought Africans to enslave.Geez.Get you head straight and drop the blinds.
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Mzabalazo
SolmWhich chief sold slaves please name him
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
I am free with my corrupt government, at least we start some where, you are just worse than me with your chauvinst religion you are not free you are a slave of an Arabic ideology, and you do not know that.
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You free to do what? Im only a slave of my Creator that I serve as best as I can.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
What I like about my nonsense it struck the nerve you puffing with anger , because I do not let you getaway with religious lies , I do not need to any better since I managed to be understood by you, the truth hurts.
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The religious lies are in your mind.Im not angry. Im just stunned and how ignorant you are and yet you claim to know.Everything you have said was based on incomplete information or just lies.Now you claim to be clever than God! Remember this statement, you will account for it.Just take it back.You know zip about the truth, nada.
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Mzabalazo
SolmDo not turn this around, you on the other end you are justifying that it was okay for slaves to be sold to Moslem. my point is not justifying slaves been sold by Africans it to tell you that Islam claims to belonging to merciful God where was that mercy when they purchasing the slave? It does matter simply means that it doesn't justify them purchasing slave from abn African or Caucasian they werevreligious why did they religion not prevent them from committing such an sin? Where we're their religios paradisic morals when they were purchasing slaves? You can explain that because you studied for four years, you must have the answer
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
Caravans were belonged to traders, soldiers were sent later to protect the trade route after you attacked them, that is the fact. That another nonsense you have to understand
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I think I said enough on this point.Its pointless debating with someone who has selective amnesia.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou have a big problem, you Koran is full of slaves and how they should be treated and your try and deny that Islam worshippers were trading on slaves including AFrican slaves , who is igonarant me or the person who studied Koran for Four years and yet missed the slavery that is promoted in it?
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Solm
@ MzabalazoSolm
Which chief sold slaves please name him
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I must name him.Im just a slave to the Arab ideology what do I know?You the clever one who knows everything remember?
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou are not debating you are denying your own Moslem and African history if you are an African. You claim to have studied for four years yet you do not know that Moslems owned both African and Arabic slaves, that is not. A debate but a duck and dive. Thanks anyway, I never met a Moslem who denies that They once owned African slaves, you are the first.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
I hold Islam for it responsible for and I have stated it clearly and I did not leave any stone unturned, I held all the Monotheist religion accountable for their bits I even includes Hinduism, Iam the one who qouted the Crusade wars that was started by the church, I am the one who qouted Sarajevo Kosovo which was fuelled by Christians don't try and pull hare on the hat for me.
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How can you hold Islam responsible when it BOUGHT slaves to free them?What sense does that make?Im going to stop soon, this is not getting anywhere really.I was hoping for some intelligent debate from you but the standard of this discussion of getting lower and lower.Im going to stop soon.
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Mzabalazo
A a Moslem who owned an Africam slave//////:::::::://///:::::
Remember that I am not free and I am ruled by a corrupt government, how can you expect me to name a Moslem/s who owned an African slave?
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
You have a big problem, you Koran is full of slaves and how they should be treated and your try and deny that Islam worshippers were trading on slaves including AFrican slaves , who is igonarant me or the person who studied Koran for Four years and yet missed the slavery that is promoted in it?
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I didnt miss anything.Where did Muslims trade in slaves?The Prophet didnt own any slaves, his companions didnt own any slaves.They actually spent money buying to free slaves.You cant separate facts from fiction.Muslims NEVER traded in slaves, NEVER.The problem is in your head.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYour understanding of freedom is flawed, all you do you just doctoring and denying, you know very well what you did with African slaves.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
You are not debating you are denying your own Moslem and African history if you are an African. You claim to have studied for four years yet you do not know that Moslems owned both African and Arabic slaves, that is not. A debate but a duck and dive. Thanks anyway, I never met a Moslem who denies that They once owned African slaves, you are the first.
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Arabs owned and traded in African slaves, not Muslims.Of course Im African, why would I bother studying the history of slavery and knowing exactly who did what when if it doesnt bother me.I never claimed to have studied for 4 years.I was telling you that sciences of the Qur'an takes 4 years to study.Go back up and read what I said.You cant remember what took place few hours ago yet you want to talk about slavery that happened over a thousand years ago.Get your facts right before opening you mouth.You not doing your self any good parading as knowledgeable when all you have is misinformation.It might with with others but I know my stuff.I can separate wheat from the chuff.
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Mzabalazo
SolmHow could it can anywhere when all you do is to deny everything, nothing that you acknowledge as the truth if you like I will post you scriptures in the Quran that refutes your claim that Moslem bought slave s in order to free them. Nothing you are saying really adds up, it a good idea that we just quit, to you an intelligent debate is to deny and the opposition agree with you. That is not a debate, in a debate you either concur or agree to disagree, I for one agree to disagree.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
Your understanding of freedom is flawed, all you do you just doctoring and denying, you know very well what you did with African slaves.
======================
Your white baas tells you to look into Islam for slavery and forget what he did himself and you doing just that.Yet you telling me you free.LOL.Get a grip on reality and stop dreaming.I know what Islam is responsible for and I know what its not responsible for.Im not going to keep silent when you paddling lies about Islam trading in slavery.Go back to your history books and start all over again studying slavery.You havent even scratched the surface.While you at it dont forget your baas, look into him too.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
How could it can anywhere when all you do is to deny everything, nothing that you acknowledge as the truth if you like I will post you scriptures in the Quran that refutes your claim that Moslem bought slave s in order to free them. Nothing you are saying really adds up, it a good idea that we just quit, to you an intelligent debate is to deny and the opposition agree with you. That is not a debate, in a debate you either concur or agree to disagree, I for one agree to disagree.
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Im denying the lies you attribute to Islam.You dont have to look into the Qur'an to know how Muslims dealt with slavery, there are plenty examples in Muslim history.Nothing I say add up?LOL.Good night Mzabalazo, qhubeka uzabalaze uzofika phambili.
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Mzabalazo
SolmHere is my protest you:
I raised the Shi'a and Sunni skirmishes you down played as some new,I told you that they happened when Mohammed's relative was in charge (imam ) you just avoided that, I did not call you names
I raised the discrimination of women you quickly told me that with my feminist teher is nothing I can do to change that, this was in a way concurring that there unfair treatment of women
You later tried to dictor that verse on inheritance I did not agree with you that we women need to be taken care by men, you tried to justify that in the olden day this scripture was relevant I refuted that because women were never disabled to take care of themselves and their families including their husbands
Now you not only disagreeing with me only, you also disagree with the Koran that Moslems did not own slaves, infant I qouted a scripture not long ago that talks about the ornament and veil, it even stipulates that the woman can unveil infront of her slaves, which slave if Moslem did not own slaves? That my dear is a joke of the year, after that you accuse me of not debating in good faith
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
This is a joke you qoute one woman maybe ten or hundred, how many African people suffered under the banner of Kafir or infidels. You are over simplifying yourself, evenness during the apartheid times the Africans who were taken care of by South African caucasians, eg Donald Woods made sure that the story of Biko gets justice outside the country, Hellen Zille made sure that she accompany Nontsikelelo Biko as her madam to the morgue and took pictures of my hero. But that does not I repeat that does not mean that The marjority of the SA caucasians did not treated us badly, sh#ot at our uncles and aunts, arrested our parents. You cannot tell me about a lucky African woman and try to down play the bloo#d of Africans in the hands of your religion since Muhammed 's epoch., you can cheat others not those who knows their history
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The point I was making was that the Prophet didnt have racial issues.Nowhere was he ever racist to Africans, in fact he was over protective of them to the annoyance of other companions.But you havent studied anything really.I feel like Im talkking to myself.The Prophet has no African blood in his hands.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou said Arabs owned slaves not Moslems how then is denying lies on Islam when you people owned slaves, how is that, very very slickly sharp, take care.
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Mzabalazo
SolmBack to square one, I was not talking about Muhammed , I was talking about the Moslems owning slaves, his over protectiveness did not prevent Moslem from owning slaves that then is no relevant and even if it was then his angel gave him rule and orders pertaining slaves not freeing them, you are the one who jumped a gun. Moslems owning slaves , I was not disagreeging with you on how Mohammed treated slaves especially African slaves, you have a tendency of raising an issue which is not relevant to the issue at hand, you never showed how Muhammed's tendency changed the attitude of Moslemsntowards slaves, African slaves in particular instead you wer saying Moslems never owned slaves.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
Here is my protest you:
I raised the Shi'a and Sunni skirmishes you down played as some new,I told you that they happened when Mohammed's relative was in charge (imam ) you just avoided that, I did not call you names
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This is also not correct.The Shia Sunni issue happened after the Prophet passed away, it was a leadership skirmish.Your information is incorrect.
I raised the discrimination of women you quickly told me that with my feminist teher is nothing I can do to change that, this was in a way concurring that there unfair treatment of women
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I said there is nothing you can do to change the biological fact that man and woman are not the same.This is what I said.Its not even 12 hours you already changing things.
You later tried to dictor that verse on inheritance I did not agree with you that we women need to be taken care by men, you tried to justify that in the olden day this scripture was relevant I refuted that because women were never disabled to take care of themselves and their families including their husbands
===============
I was explainng the context and social order when that verse was revealed.I dodnt doctor anything.
Now you not only disagreeing with me only, you also disagree with the Koran that Moslems did not own slaves, infant I qouted a scripture not long ago that talks about the ornament and veil, it even stipulates that the woman can unveil infront of her slaves, which slave if Moslem did not own slaves? That my dear is a joke of the year, after that you accuse me of not debating in good faith
Muslims never TRADED in slaves, meaning they didnt buy and sell slaves like Jews did.The slaves you talking about, are slaves which they owned BEFORE Islam that they subsequently FREED.The Qur'an states very clearly that oppression is worse than death.If you read the whole scripture instead of hand-picking verses that goes along with your belief on what Islam is, you would have know that.How Islam dealt with vices was gradual, for example slavery, it started off by granting more rights to slaves and finally outlawing it as an abhomination.The same with drinking, some compnaions drank a lot and the Qur'an first told them not to come for prayers drunk, the next step the Qur'an outlawed drinking all together.Therefore there are verses that abrogate others.This is one of the science you need to know before making interpretation of Qur'an.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
Back to square one, I was not talking about Muhammed , I was talking about the Moslems owning slaves, his over protectiveness did not prevent Moslem from owning slaves that then is no relevant and even if it was then his angel gave him rule and orders pertaining slaves not freeing them, you are the one who jumped a gun. Moslems owning slaves , I was not disagreeging with you on how Mohammed treated slaves especially African slaves, you have a tendency of raising an issue which is not relevant to the issue at hand, you never showed how Muhammed's tendency changed the attitude of Moslemsntowards slaves, African slaves in particular instead you wer saying Moslems never owned slaves.
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After the Qur'an shunned slavery, there were no slaves owned by Muslims.You pick topics that you have no knowledge of except a verse or two.Let me give you a tip, when you choosing a subject like slavery in the Qur'an.I dont know which translation you using, if you using Yusuf Ali's, at the back he wrote topics diecussed in the Qur'an.You flip at the back and look for the subject slavery.He lists ALL verses pertaining to slavery.Go over those verses to find out what the finality is on slavery in the Qur'an.Thats the least you can do.Cheers
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Mzabalazo
SolmNow I am tired with your lies check this and stop lying,:
Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so? If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives. Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also? I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many. Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter.
Praise be to Allaah.
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married.
A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage.
This is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and this was done by the Prophets. Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) took Haajar as a concubine and she bore him Ismaa’eel (may peace be upon them all).
Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
[al-Nisa’ 4:3]
What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave women whom you own.
And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”
[al-Ahzaab 33:50]
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.
But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-31]
Al-Tabari said:
Allaah says, “And those who guard their chastity” i.e., protect their private parts from doing everything that Allaah has forbidden, but they are not to blame if they do not guard their chastity from their wives or from the female slaves whom their rights hands possess.
Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84
Ibn Katheer said:
Taking a concubine as well as a wife is permissible according to the law of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him). Ibraaheem did that with Haajar, when he took her as a concubine when he was married to Saarah.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/383
And Ibn Katheer also said:
The phrase “and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you” [al-Ahzaab 33:50] means, it is permissible for you take concubines from among those whom you seized as war booty. He took possession of Safiyyah and Juwayriyah and he freed them and married them; he took possession of Rayhaanah bint Sham’oon al-Nadariyyah and Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibraaheem (peace be upon them both), and they were among his concubines, may Allaah be pleased with them both.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/500
The scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible.
Ibn Qudaamah said:
There is no dispute (among the scholars) that it is permissible to take concubines and to have intercourse with one's slave woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]
Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah was the umm walad (a slave woman who bore her master a child) of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and she was the mother of Ibraaheem, the son of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), of whom he said, “Her son set her free.” Haajar, the mother of Isma’eel (peace be upon him), was the concubine of Ibraaheem the close friend (khaleel) of the Most Merciful (peace be upon him). ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) had a number of slave women who bore him children, to each of whom he left four hundred in his will. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) had slave women who bore him children, as did many of the Sahaabah. ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn, al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad and Saalim ibn ‘Abd-Allaah were all born from slave mothers
Al-Mughni, 10/441
Al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]
The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (women slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses.
Al-Umm, 5/43.
The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A
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Mzabalazo
SolmHow can scholars say it permissible to have an intercourse with a slave woman if Islam banished slavery, this are interpretations of scholar that you so much referring too. Stop lying
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
Now I am tired with your lies check this and stop lying,:
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Good day to you too Mzabalazo
Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so? If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives. Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also?
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You need to understand the principle of niskh or abrogation to understand what you talking about.Abrogation means initial verses were overidden or cancelled by later ones.About female slaves in Arabia.Arabs had very filthy sexual practices before Islam, they used to glorify two things, sexual relattions and wine.These two were regarded as the ultimate pleasures a man can have.A good fine wine and a good woman used to be the epitome of their satisfaction.They had other filthy practices that you dont need to know.lol.So when Muslims moved from Makkah to Medina, many new Muslims embraced Islam.They brought along these pre-Islamic habits.Another thing is that female slaves were there to provide Arab males with pleasures and the males had no responsibility towards the females.So when these new converts became Muslim, Islam had to deal with their situation.Islam has very practical approach to problems.So it dealt with the female slavery relations as it was initially.As the time went on, Islam started granting slaves rights and 'humanising'' them for a lack of a better word.It made their owners directly responsible for them, they had to feed and cloth them and take caer of them.The next thing slaves were allowed to have businesses of their own.From those businesses verses came stating that should a slave wish to buy her freedom (even in instalments) their owners shouldnt refuse them.So capable slaves worked and paid for their freedom in instalments.This was one way Islam stipulated of getting rid of slavery.Another way was to use the freeing of slaves as punishment for certain offences.So if I did a wrong, the way for me of pating for that wrong was to free a slave.Another way was to state that owning slaves is not part of righteousness.So people had to free slaves in their quest to be righteous and closer to God Almighty.These are different way of how Islam got rid of slavery.I can give you full references if you want of the verses Im talking about.So verses that regulated relations between female slaves and their owners at the begining were abrogated by verses giving slaves rights, these were abrogated by later ones about righteousness.So you need to know which verses applied which period.This is the purpose of the science of naskh or abrogation.Im sorry I squezzed your answer like this, I just dont have the time to explain this in detail.
I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many. Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter.
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Ali was one of the poor companions of the Prophet, he was marrieds to the Prophet's daughter Fatima.She used to complain to the Prophet of the workload in her house and the Prophet used to tell her to have patience.Ali couldnt afford buying slaves, let alone feeding them.They used to just make it with livelihood.Its nonsense that he had 17 slaves. The same with Umar, the second leader of Muslims.He didnt have slaves.The compoanions of the Prophet that left with him from Makkah to Medina, they didnt have the luxury of owning slaves.They had it really tough.
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Solm
@MzabalazoPraise be to Allaah.
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married.
A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage.
This is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and this was done by the Prophets. Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) took Haajar as a concubine and she bore him Ismaa’eel (may peace be upon them all).
Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.
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Where did you get this from?
And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”
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This is about the laws of marriage.What is your problem with this?
Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84
Ibn Katheer said:
Taking a concubine as well as a wife is permissible according to the law of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him). Ibraaheem did that with Haajar, when he took her as a concubine when he was married to Saarah.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/383
And Ibn Katheer also said:
The phrase “and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you” [al-Ahzaab 33:50] means, it is permissible for you take concubines from among those whom you seized as war booty. He took possession of Safiyyah and Juwayriyah and he freed them and married them; he took possession of Rayhaanah bint Sham’oon al-Nadariyyah and Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibraaheem (peace be upon them both), and they were among his concubines, may Allaah be pleased with them both.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/500
The scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible.
Ibn Qudaamah said:
There is no dispute (among the scholars) that it is permissible to take concubines and to have intercourse with one's slave woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”
=========================
Which book of ibn Kathir are you using here?
Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah was the umm walad (a slave woman who bore her master a child) of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and she was the mother of Ibraaheem, the son of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), of whom he said, “Her son set her free.” Haajar, the mother of Isma’eel (peace be upon him), was the concubine of Ibraaheem the close friend (khaleel) of the Most Merciful (peace be upon him). ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) had a number of slave women who bore him children, to each of whom he left four hundred in his will. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) had slave women who bore him children, as did many of the Sahaabah. ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn, al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad and Saalim ibn ‘Abd-Allaah were all born from slave mothers
Al-Mughni, 10/441
Al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]
The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (women slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses.
Al-Umm, 5/43.
The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
And Allaah knows best.
========================
Where did you get all this?
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Mzabalazo
AUG 13, 2012Solm
@Mzabalazo
Solm
Back to square one, I was not talking about Muhammed , I was talking about the Moslems owning slaves, his over protectiveness did not prevent Moslem from owning slaves that then is no relevant and even if it was then his angel gave him rule and orders pertaining slaves not freeing them, you are the one who jumped a gun. Moslems owning slaves , I was not disagreeging with you on how Mohammed treated slaves especially African slaves, you have a tendency of raising an issue which is not relevant to the issue at hand, you never showed how Muhammed's tendency changed the attitude of Moslemsntowards slaves, African slaves in particular instead you wer saying Moslems never owned slaves.
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After the Qur'an shunned slavery, there were no slaves owned by Muslims.You pick topics that you have no knowledge of except a verse or two.Let me give you a tip, when you choosing a subject like slavery in the Qur'an.I dont know which translation you using, if you using Yusuf Ali's, at the back he wrote topics diecussed in the Qur'an.You flip at the back and look for the subject slavery.He lists ALL verses pertaining to slavery.Go over those verses to find out what the finality is on slavery in the Qur'an.Thats the least you can do.Cheers
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This is a reply to this post where you totally claimed that Moslem were setting slaves free they were no longer keeping slaves. What this article from a person who has studied The Quran. The other lie that you have told is that Moslem were not taking infidel slaves, when in fact ithe Quran state it clearly that you cannot have a fellow Moslem as a slave, thus some slaves submitted and became Moslems and they were freed from slavery as it demanded In Quran .
That is why I find you very tricky because you cannot be ignorant of that scriptural instruction , not with the knowledge of Islam you have.
The information is copied and pasted as you know, this is a Q&A from a Moslem.
The Shi'a and the Sunni issue , you said it was not religious but political, but you know that it is just a propaganda, because this is a religious issue, I will not go any further unless if you want me to copy and paste the info, which I am glad to. The split is basically about one faction claiming that a Moslem leader should be the relative of the Prophet where as the other saying it doesn't necessary have to be a relatiive of the Prophet but anyone qualified enough to meet the necessary criteria can be a leader. This is how the two faction split up and that is not political.
Misinformation indeed.
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Mzabalazo
SolmCan you please post us an information that says Islam forbade slavery as you claim, meanwhile I will post another evidence that Moslem were encouraged to own slaves by the Quran:
The Qur'an:
Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners. Others are restrained to four wives, but may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:
Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (70:29-30).
Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.
Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."
Qur'an (24:32) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.
Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's).
Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored).
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou claim that the Portugese were the first slaves traders and guess what history says otherwise, check this:
The Role of Islam in African Slavery
Part 1 – Obtaining slaves on the African continent
By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide
See More About:islam and african slaveryafrican slaverytrans-saharan slave tradeislam in africa
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Slavery has been rife throughout all of ancient history. Most, if not all, ancient civilizations practiced this institution and it is described (and defended) in early writings of the Sumerians, Babylonians, and Egyptians. It was also practiced by early societies in central America and Africa. (See Bernard Lewis's work Race and Slavery in the Middle East1 for a detailed chapter of the origins and practices of slavery.)
The Qur'an prescribes a humanitarian approach to slavery -- free men could not be enslaved, and those faithful to foreign religions could live as protected persons, dhimmis, under Muslim rule (as long as they maintained payment of taxes called Kharaj and Jizya). However, the spread of the Islamic Empire resulted in a much harsher interpretation of the law. For example, if a dhimmis was unable to pay the taxes they could be enslaved, and people from outside the borders of the Islamic Empire were considered an acceptable source of slaves.
Although the law required owners to treat slaves well and provide medical treatment, a slave had no right to be heard in court (testimony was forbidden by slaves), had no right to property, could marry only with permission of their owner, and was considered to be a chattel, that is the (moveable) property, of the slave owner. Conversion to Islam did not automatically give a slave freedom nor did it confer freedom to their children. Whilst highly educated slaves and those in the military did win their freedom, those used for basic duties rarely achieved freedom. In addition, the recorded mortality rate was high -- this was still significant even as late as the nineteenth century and was remarked upon by western travelers in North Africa and Egypt.
Slaves were obtained through conquest, tribute from vassal states (in the first such treaty, Nubia was required to provide hundreds of male and female slaves), offspring (children of slaves were also slaves, but since many slaves were castrated this was not as common as it had been in the Roman empire), and purchase. The latter method provided the majority of slaves, and at the borders of the Islamic Empire vast number of new slaves were castrated ready for sale (Islamic law did not allow mutilation of slaves, so it was done before they crossed the border). The majority of these slaves came from Europe and Africa -- there were always enterprising locals ready to kidnap or capture their fellow countrymen.
Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa.
By the time of the Ottoman Empire, the majority of slaves were obtained by raiding in Africa. Russian expansion had put an end to the source of "exceptionally beautiful" female and "brave" male slaves from the Caucasians -- the women were highly prised in the harem, the men in the military. The great trade networks across north Africa were as much to do with the safe transportation of slaves as other goods. An analysis of prices at various slave markets shows that eunuchs fetched higher prices than other males, encouraging the castration of slaves before export.
Documentation suggests that slaves throughout Islamic world were mainly used for menial domestic and commercial purposes. Eunuchs were especially prised for bodyguards and confidential servants; women as concubines and menials. A Muslim slave owner was entitled by law to use slaves for sexual pleasure.
As primary source material becomes available to Western scholars, the bias towards urban slaves is being questioned. Records also show that thousands of slaves were used in gangs for agriculture and mining. Large landowners and rulers used thousands of such slaves, usually in dire conditions: "of the Saharan salt mines it is said that no slave lived there for more than five years.
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Solm
@MzabalazoThis is a reply to this post where you totally claimed that Moslem were setting slaves free they were no longer keeping slaves. What this article from a person who has studied The Quran. The other lie that you have told is that Moslem were not taking infidel slaves, when in fact ithe Quran state it clearly that you cannot have a fellow Moslem as a slave, thus some slaves submitted and became Moslems and they were freed from slavery as it demanded In Quran .
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I dont think its fair for you to tell me Im speaking a lie when you havent given me a chance to explain myself.Even after I have explained things to you, you still dont accept it because you already convicted Islam in your mind to many crimes.So when you reading about Islam you already looking for info that will justify your existing conviction of Islam, anything else you dont accept you simply dismiss it as a lie.This is the problem with you.You not really objective here, you seriously compromised.This alone is reason enough for me to drop this conversation and stop entertaining someone who already has a made up mind about Islam.But because Im obliged by my religion, as I have come to be aware of your slander of Islam, I have to respond because if I keep silent and let you say all these things on issues you obviously know little about, I would be accountable as much as you are for not doing anything.This is the reason really why Im doing this.Otherwise I dont really have to put up with your constantly calling me a liar.I really dont.
Ok now that I have cleared that part, lets get to what you raised.Do you know why I explained the science of abrogation to you?Did you read that part of my reply or you just didnt get it?I thought I made that part very clear but I can see that you still struggling understanding it.This could be the reason of your prejudice that you not hearing me.Which makes this difficult because Im not talking to myself here.When you post I read and reply having READ what you posted.Its only fair to expect the same from you.Dont make me repeat the same thing over and over again, you not the slow type.You understand things very well, its just your prejudice that clouds your mind ALL the time.The reason why I explained at large to you the point of abrogation is so you know the sequence of events relating to a particular issue in the Qur'an.Like slavery for example, that makes you very hot under the collar.I explained to you that as Islam was spreading in Arabia, people who own slaves were coming into Islam in numbers.So Islam had to respond to the issue of slavery.It did so systematically.First we have verses that dealt with slavery as it was then.These are the verses you quoting a lot to strengthen your prejudice.The mistake you making is that you only looking at the first phase and ignore what follows next.This is precisely why studying the sciences of exegesis of the Qur'an is key here.You cant make a ruling based on these 'first phase' verses as the dealing with slavery issue was not finalised yet by the Qur'an.It was just the begining of the phasing out process of slavery and many other issues facing Muslims at that time.Another point worth mentioning here is that the Qur'an was dealing with an ALREADY existing phenomenon of slavery, it DIDNT create slavery.This is important to understand.The issue of slavery goes back to Abraham's time.The Western trick, together with you, is to use the verses where slavery was INTRODUCED within Islam to make an impression that its Islam that brought about slavery and everything was fine before Islam.This is nonsensical.If anything Islam didnt shy away from the issue of slavery, it dealt with it.You can argue whether or not the manner in which Islam dealt with slavery was the best.However thats another discussion altogether.Anyway having to deal with the reality that there were Muslims who owned slaves now.The Qur'an started improving the status of slaves.On the second phase, the Qurán encouraged Muslims to treat their slaves good ( 4:36/ 9:60).This didnt happen before, not only in Arabia but in the whole world at this time where slavery was practiced.This making Muslim slave owners be directly responsible for their slaves was new then.Then we come to verse 24:33, which deals with mukataba and other improvements on the lives of slaves.Mukataba is a contract between a slave master and a slave where the slave buys his freedom in instalments.This was a tremendous boost for slaves.Before a slave could either be released by his owner either by death or sale to another owner.Slaves couldnt work any other work but for their owners.Mukataba changed this, it allowed those slaves who wanted to work for themselves to do so and pay for their freedom in instalments.Even better, this verse alowed the slave owner to loan the slave the money to start a business for the slave to buy his freedom.This was the first way out for the slaves who wanted out.Also in this verse is the command not to force famale slave for sex.This was also groundbreaking on its own.Introduction of consent here was unheard of before.Another way out for slaves was 4:92, which specifically prescribed freeing of slaves for sins or wrongs committed.Also for making deliberate ouths (where you use God's name to swer when you know its not true what you swearing about), a punishment was freeing of a slave.For those who divorced their wives than change their minds thereafter, a punishment for that was freeing a slave before she could accept the apology (58:3).The final phase was shown by 2:177, which stated that it is not righteous to own slaves.This was the final nail in the coffin that got rid of slavery in Islam.Now lets look at this.By allowing slaves different ways in which they could earn their freedom.You could already see where things were going and what the next step was.Granting slaves rights they didnt have, it made it a burden for slave owners to keep slaves.It was just better to free them.The more Islam spread to different areas, the more new converts came in and had to go through the same process in dealing with slaves.This is the Islamic position, the method in which Islam removed slavery.Of course not everybody followed this method.Thats why the Prophet must be used to judge Islam, not anyone else.After his passing away many things happened, a lot of old habits he worked soo hard to remove came back again.However generally with regard to slaves, Muslims adhered to the Qur'anic dictates about slavery.Im not here to defend those Muslims who carried on with habits against the Qur'an.Im here to tell you what the Qur'an says and how the Prophet dealt with slavery issue.So the point of abrogation is that it teaches you which verses applied to which period in the Qur'an.I hope you understood this now.
That is why I find you very tricky because you cannot be ignorant of that scriptural instruction , not with the knowledge of Islam you have.
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Im not ignorant of those scriptural instructions as you put it.Im aware that those scriptural instructions were temporary, which is the point of naskh or abrogation.I hope you can see the point of the sciences now.To cut and paste verses without knowing what was happening, without the whole story, you going to make a mess of things like Al qaeda.Islam is the only religion that acknowldged slavery and dealt with it.It not only freed slaves within Mislims, it forbade Muslims from enslaving free people thereafter.Islam set a precedent at the time when people profited from slavery.
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Solm
@MzabalazoThe Shi'a and the Sunni issue , you said it was not religious but political, but you know that it is just a propaganda, because this is a religious issue, I will not go any further unless if you want me to copy and paste the info, which I am glad to. The split is basically about one faction claiming that a Moslem leader should be the relative of the Prophet where as the other saying it doesn't necessary have to be a relatiive of the Prophet but anyone qualified enough to meet the necessary criteria can be a leader. This is how the two faction split up and that is not political.
Misinformation indeed.
====================
The discussion on whoever leads Muslims is a political issue.This has nothing to do with aqeedah or belief system.They were not fighting over the Oneness of God, they were not fighting over the pillars of Islam or whether Mohammed was a Prophet or not.They were disagrreing on who should lead Muslims, this is a political issue.Actually its a bit more complicated than how you describe it.There were other issues at play, which I dont mind discussing if thats what you want.
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Skhosho
Solm & Mzabalazo..... your comments are quite interesting indeedReport Abuse
Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
You claim that the Portugese were the first slaves traders and guess what history says otherwise, check this:
======================
I told you to look at your source.Bernad Lewis is a Zionist Jew.Muslims and Zionists have issues going back many years.He has an interest in portraying Islam in a bad light.He believes the Judeo-Christian civilisation is superior to Islam, hence his famous book 'clash of civilisations'.He preaches a gospel that Islam is violent, was spread by sword blah blah blah.The usual Zionist claptrap.Im surprise you using him as authority here when Israel helped South Africa oppress blacks and helped the Apartheid giovernment build nuclear weapons.Israel sustained apartheid government for years, giving them technology and weapons they used against black in the township.You should really know who is who in the international zoo and what are they working for.
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Mzabalazo
SolmI am not into which religion is best or better or worst. I am showing you that even if you can try and deny the fact that the North of Africa was exploited by Moslems. What you can say and I can agree with with you on that: is Islam put humanity in slavery, by allowing slaves to own business, to be treated with care , which is not in any sense freeing or abolishing slavery but making cosmetic changes, whilst Christianity, Judaism, and African slave dealers were more brutal. But that doesn't mean it was good for Quran to allow other humans to be made slaves just because they were infidels. Just as the abolishing of slavery by Christian doesn't exonerate their owning of slavery in the first place. All these religion ie. Judaism, Christainity and Islam should not have even allowed slavery in the first place and all their books mention what is done to another human so casual as if it was natural, Quran is not even suppose to have justified that a slave owner is allowed by Allah to sleep with his woman slave. What you fail to appreciate here is that a person who is enslaved has his or her rights taken away from them, they do not make that choice. Instead you rush to tell us that African Chiefs were trading with slaves, yes that is true, because even before the filthy Arabs and Caucasians came to our shores slavery was practice amongst Africans by Africans, Indians to Indians, Europeans to Europeans and Arabs to Arabs. But what I detest is your religious attitudes, all of you who follow the Abrahamic religion, that you have the truth and you are holy or God is speaking to you , when your practice are as barbaric as everyone else. If God was on you side you wouldn't have enslaved people just like us infidels. You would have completely shunned this barbaric act, you would not even try to better the conditions of slaves but completely altogether not allow it. To you it was very important to quickly stop people from eating pork but difficult to stop people from having slaves. Your Quran says the Moslem slave driver can sleep with his woman slaves. That is in the Quran. If it is wrong to own slaves today Solm it was wrong even then and your prophet was very wrong to even write that a Moslem slave owner was allowed to sleep with a slave woman, who allowed not Allah? Later on the All knowing All Merciful Allah changes His Mind and says it wrong to own slaves, yet He never changes His Mind in eating the pork. I guess you cannot see the logic.
Your attack and defensive strategy do not change the fact that the Koran allows, those verses I have posted for you, that a Moslem slave owner has the right to sleep with their woman slave, that is a Quranic right a religion supports such an atrocity and we should not question that because Christian, Jews and Africans once owned slaves . It quite disturbing to be involved in such a discussion with an African who experienced a first hand, how apartheid was demeaning and no cosmetic change of apartheid were going to give dignity to African, yet you want us to praise Mohammed for a useless cosmetic change in slavery, why did he not stop the chauvinst attitude of his followers towards women slaves, why did he not stop them from sleeping with their woman slaves?
I am not here to take sides with any Abrahamic Dogma and I do not care about your disputes because they are useless and they make the world more complicated than it is, your religious wars and grumbling are not making this word a better place, why should you all care, because you have a place to go to when you die and you spoil the only place we infidel have the earth, with your dogmatic mumbo jumbo
You avoid to comment on the issue of why should a prophet and a holy book allow a Moslem to sleep with their woman slave.
You avoid admitting that slavery was legitimized by the prophet instead you rush to tell me that the prophet did not own a slave, this to me does nt make sense, it's just like saying to me a person has not k#illed personally when they have commanded and allowed their followers to ki#ll. Why should your prophet be found not guilty of slavery just because he never own a slave when he perpertuated the idea and even allowed his followers to sleep withering women slave, when we can find G. Bush guilty for Iraq for perpetuating the mass mu#rder of Iraqis even though he did not personally use a bomb?
Solm this is the hipocracy of religious people that I detest so much, you have double standards when judging issues.
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Mzabalazo
SolmWhat else do you want me to say, I told you that I cannot concur on this issue, why:
First I posted the verses , you said they cannot be but what amazes me is that those that you can explain you just explain them and you do not refer me to context and the rest
Secondly I post a verses that clearly stipulate that a Moslem man can sleep with his woman slave, you do not explain that, you do not even touch that. Instead you telling me that your prophet never owned slaves. What is a holy book doing to demean another person, by allowing them to be s#ex toys of others just because they own them as slaves, what is holy about that, never mind that later on they no longer own slaves, but why did a holy book, a prophet of Allah allow it in the first place? If it is true indeed that Mohammed was the messenger then why did Allah allow people to be treated in that manner in the first place? And what made him change his mind, about slavery, because that world has not changed , we are still infidels?
You will not attend to this, you will tell me about the Zionist who happened to be related to your prophet through Abraham, the worst slave owner.
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Mzabalazo
SolmDo not be a history basher, the Portugese came to Africa very late compared to the Arabs, in Mapungupwe and Zimbabwe(ruins) African Kingdoms were long trading with the Arabs, and slavery was in pipe line, as you said yourself that the Chiefs were trading their own people, which in fact they were not their own people, they people from enemy tribes( please do not doctor this, and claim that I support such act if done to enemy tribes). Solm you cannot deny the occupation of Egypt, Mali, Sudan, Morocco,Mauritani, Tunisia, Algeria and Libya(Nubia ) by Moslems, those people who now occupy African land and owe alligience to Arab League more than they do to the African Union are Moslem occupiers, in Mali Moslem just abolished slavery in the 90's and African are still enslaved by people who read Quran. The Berber who owned Mauritania and many lands have dispersed by Moslems.
Solm I can understand when you say today Islam does not approve of slavery but to deny and bash your African History to justify the holiness of an Arabic religious ideology is really amazing. Quran does permit a Moslem slave owner to sleep with his slave woman, that is a fact and the person who wrote that was Mohammed, therefore I hold him responsible for perpetuating slavery.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
I am not into which religion is best or better or worst. I am showing you that even if you can try and deny the fact that the North of Africa was exploited by Moslems.
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And Im telling you that this is not how Islam came into Africa.I can give you much better books explsining how Islam came into Africa.It had nothing to do with exploitation.
What you can say and I can agree with with you on that: is Islam put humanity in slavery, by allowing slaves to own business, to be treated with care , which is not in any sense freeing or abolishing slavery but making cosmetic changes, whilst Christianity, Judaism, and African slave dealers were more brutal.
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I think thats an undersatement considering the time.Islam did far more than just allowing slaves to own business or let them be treated with care.It open the door OUT of slavery for them.This is not a cosmetic change.Your prejudice again is standing in the way and your really understating the issue.To finally tell Muslims slavery is not a righteous thing to do is not cosmetic, it links slavery to spirituality.Islam made owning of slavery a very serious matter.
But that doesn't mean it was good for Quran to allow other humans to be made slaves just because they were infidels. Just as the abolishing of slavery by Christian doesn't exonerate their owning of slavery in the first place.
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I think your over-simplification approach to issues makes you miss the point entirely.Of course owning and enslaving people is bad.There is no one in their right mind that can deny that.Slavery is not only bad in the eyes of man, it bad in the eyes of God too.But God did create this problem, humanity did.You cant hold God responsible for that.God has values that He wants humanity to model themselves along, righteous values.But this is a difficult ask for humanity.Another thing here is that Christians only abolished slavery 100 years ago or less, when they had already finished economically exploiting the slaves.When they created their civilisation, they didnt need slaves anymore.On the other hand Islam banished slavery almost 1500 years ago.The issue of slavery was dealt with in Islam in less than 10 years.In this 10 years, slave owners didnt financially benefit from slaves, instead Islam progressively added the rights of slaves and liberating them until it finally abolished it.You really cant compare Christianity with Islam.Neither can you compare Islam with Jews.If there is anybody who financially benefited from slavery far above Christians, its the Jews. Jews traded in slavery almost 90% of slave trading was done by Jews.Over 90% of slaves was owned by Jews.They still practice financial slavery even today, it just that its more fancy and complicated now.Internationally they have created banking institutions that enslave countries, not individuals anymore.They way pass that level.Our own reserve bank, who do you think owns it? The freedom you laud soo much, thats the one that is cosmetic actually.Your government is standing guard for the owners of the reserve bank.Whoever owns the wealth of this country, is the real owner of this country.I can tell you now that you dont own it, I dont own it.Its not the blacks in this country owning it, its not the government, its the Jews my dear.They decide how much the rand is worth today.Your government has no say in it.I can go on and on but I think you get the point.What Im saying to you is that slavery is not gone, its still here.Its much more complicated now.
Quran is not even suppose to have justified that a slave owner is allowed by Allah to sleep with his woman slave. What you fail to appreciate here is that a person who is enslaved has his or her rights taken away from them, they do not make that choice.
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Islam didnt justify anything, it regulated it and finally banished it.Sleeping with slave woman is what existed already, Islam was dealing with the existing situation already.It introduced consent, which wasnt there before, Islam dealt with it Mzabalazo.This is the reason actually that the first group of people to accept Islam was the poor and slaves.hey found redemption in Islam.This is why they flocked in embracing its message, it was a breath of fresh air.
Instead you rush to tell us that African Chiefs were trading with slaves, yes that is true, because even before the filthy Arabs and Caucasians came to our shores slavery was practice amongst Africans by Africans, Indians to Indians, Europeans to Europeans and Arabs to Arabs.
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I didnt rush anything, you the one who did the rushing passing judgment on issue you not well versed with.I was merely pointing out the gaps in your knowledge and condemnation.You cant only hold the buyer of a slave responsible and not the seller.This is the problem with your approach.You have to hold EVERYBODY responsible.You doing this and you telling me about hypocracy and doible standards?Look at yourself before pointing fingures.
But what I detest is your religious attitudes, all of you who follow the Abrahamic religion, that you have the truth and you are holy or God is speaking to you , when your practice are as barbaric as everyone else. If God was on you side you wouldn't have enslaved people just like us infidels. You would have completely shunned this barbaric act, you would not even try to better the conditions of slaves but completely altogether not allow it.
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Again, you fightng a just cause when you taking on slavery.Im with you all the way.But have a clear mind for crying out loud when you fighting.Right now you just firing at everything everywhere.You not doing justice to the cause when you just saber rattling.You need to sit down and think very carefully what you up against.What you fighting is more complicated now, you need to change your strategy.
To you it was very important to quickly stop people from eating pork but difficult to stop people from having slaves. Your Quran says the Moslem slave driver can sleep with his woman slaves. That is in the Quran.
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No its not important to eat pork, justice is important.The reality is that when you dealing with human beings, its a very difficult ask.What is important is not only the message but how you deliver it as well.Go to any psychologist and ask them if its practical to just tell someone who has been addicted to something for generations to suddenly stop doing that.Human mind doesnt work that way.You need a process which eventually gets rid of the addiction.This is important.Someone who smakes 20 cigarettes a day and theu want to stop.its not going to work to just tell them to instantly stop.You need to gradually phase they out of smoking by reducing the number of cigarettes they smoke each day.This is human psychology, if you God dealing with human being you created, you would know that.What you saying is not only possible but impractical.Thats why Im saying you just saber rattling.
If it is wrong to own slaves today Solm it was wrong even then and your prophet was very wrong to even write that a Moslem slave owner was allowed to sleep with a slave woman, who allowed not Allah? Later on the All knowing All Merciful Allah changes His Mind and says it wrong to own slaves, yet He never changes His Mind in eating the pork. I guess you cannot see the logic.
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You missing the point again.The gradual phasing out of slavery is not because God changed His mind, its because thats how human psychology works.The problem is not God, the problem is humanity.This you need to understand also.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou cannot be telling me that Isreal supported apartheid, we all now that and the Isrealis based their cruelty from their fore father Abraham who claimed superiority to others who had a different belief to his. Islam, Judaism, Christianity are no different , they just give the world same poison but in a different dose. Not long ago you were down playing our liberation now you say Isreal blah blah, you said we were not free because my government was corrupt. Yes the ANC is corrupt but we have choices and we make foolish choices most of the time but we are free to make choices, no one tells me what to eat or not to eat, what to sing or not, who to associate with. Or not wher to live leave, to me that is been free, far much better than living in your holy lands where the rights of infidels and women are trampled all the time, where people read Quran yet their government stinks.
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Mzabalazo
SolmOoh, before you lecture me that. Arabs who dealt in slavery were not Moslem, get this yes at first they not after Mahommed's alleged revelation they became one and they continued where they left with slavery, the difference was that Allah would not allow them to enslave fellow Moslems, but they can do as they please with us infidels. The Ottoman empire you just qouted as role model, check its history from Moslem sources and tell me that they were not taking slaves. But the buck stops with the writer of the Koran who blesses the abuse of women slaves, that the master has the right to sleep with their slave woman, that troubles me a lot, and I wonder people see holiness in that. How can a God really be so mean so uncaring, that is treating people as rubbish, and that. is very dirty I do not care how long and good you can pray, subjugating people against their will is the most heinous crime ever committed to a people. The Quran is still saying exactly that in the 21 century, even if you no longer practice slavery but those verses they still stand,they are a proof that this religion took people's rights for centuries, making slaves to s#ex toys, that touches me as woman and as an African, because if I was alive then I would be a woman slave and your kind will be forcing themselves at me, been given the permission by the most powerful man in those days, Mohammed. That is a fact
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Solm
@MzabalazoYour attack and defensive strategy do not change the fact that the Koran allows, those verses I have posted for you, that a Moslem slave owner has the right to sleep with their woman slave, that is a Quranic right a religion supports such an atrocity and we should not question that because Christian, Jews and Africans once owned slaves .
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Im not attacking or defending anything.Im just showing you how to read Qur'an.All Im asking is that you be fair in your criticism of Islam, thats all.
It quite disturbing to be involved in such a discussion with an African who experienced a first hand, how apartheid was demeaning and no cosmetic change of apartheid were going to give dignity to African, yet you want us to praise Mohammed for a useless cosmetic change in slavery, why did he not stop the chauvinst attitude of his followers towards women slaves, why did he not stop them from sleeping with their woman slaves?
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The changes Islam brought to slavery is not cosmetic.I already showed you how untrue that is.Stop with the saber rattling.You not going justice to the cause.I dont know whether its die to ignorance or arrogance.Whatever the case is, its standing its blinding you.You cant fight this cause when you blind.You need to know and understand what you fighting.This shooting blames everywhere, EXCEPT YOU, is really not going to take you anywhere.My task here was to correct your approach, when my job is done, it wont be necessary for me to have this discussion with you.I studied and traced slavery from different sides, it took me years to finally figure out that slavery was a small stain among bigger stains in the corruption of humanity.I was angry too before just like you, however the more I realised what was happening the more I realised the essence of slavery didnt change.So I had to change my strategy, to be more sensible and measured in how I oppose corruption.There is a bigger and more ugly picture you still to find out.You on a journey.I just pray that God shows you the truth.
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Mzabalazo
SolmDon't play that game again. I hold God and Mohammed responsible, why, because they chose trivial issues to attend to and left the major issue of slavery. People were eating pork then God and Mohammed made sure that they stop eating pork, they did not phase out the eating of pork gradually , nor did they reformed it , as they did with slavery. Now what is important? This God saw slavery was wrong, if he did, I personally do not accept that, and instead of stopping it he writes in his holy book that slave woman can be used by their Moslem owner, what is that? Eating pork was the priority than his people making other suffer by slavery. Solm there is no way you can successfully defend this, that is how it is Allah and his prophet did not see it fit to stop this atrocity of slavery, instead gave permission to their subject to torment the woma slave, on top of that they are already tormented by been made slaves. If I do not blame God who do I blame for telling Moslem men to do as they please s#exually to their women slaves. Why did he do that? Didnt he have the power to not to sanction that, didn't he? Defend and support your prophet and his God but I as an infidel I know what is wrong, and that is wrong
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Mzabalazo
SolmThis is getting nowhere we will never agree, never, the Quran was not suppose to support slavery from the word go. Mohammed was not suppose to say a Moslem slave owner was allowed to sleep with the slave woman, he had no right to do that, that is in the Quran or can you show how to read that scripture tah you so painfully avoid to comment on
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Mzabalazo
SolmHow can I blame myself for a scripture that is written by Mohammed? Mohammed wrote that a Moslem slave owner is allowed to sleep with his slave woman and the wife must not complain about that. Now why should I blame myself, or should I blame myself for not agreeing with your prophet on this issue? I will not agree with this kind of attitude, this scripture is wrong and has no place today and had no place when it was writte. you said you do not mind when I criticise Islam, now I am focussing on the scripture that you do not want even to comment about, or am I reading it wrongly too?
This is wrong, very wrong for a person to write.
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou do not get it, do you , your job will never be done because there is no job. Your prophet said Moslem owners were allowed to sleep with their slave women, was that wrong or right to say according to you ? To me Solm that scripture is very bad and that means anyone who support it is bad very bad, if it come s from God, then God is very bad. You cannot tell me that if there was an Afrikanner prophet in the 1800's writing in a holy book that Afrikanners were allowed to sleep with their maids as they pleased and their wives were not suppose to object on that, you would agree with that, would you? You would be fuming and explaining how barbaric and cruel that was. Solm even if that Afrikaner prophet changes later and reform the treatment of maids that would not change that fact that the prophet did fuel the atrocities committed to women maids. So why are down playing the cruelty of Mohammed on the issue of women slaves, why? Because humans brought slavery to themselves, therefore a prophet of God has the right to fuel it by writing that it is okay for Moslem males to sleep with their women slaves. That Solm is not right and it will never right.
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Solm
I dont know why Sowetan is not letting my post go through now.I hope its not a deliberate block.I will try later again.Report Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmThere is no bigger and ugly picture than the one of a holy book giving permission to its followers to commit such atrocities I have mentioned( sleeping with slave woman) you need to first pray to see how wrong it is to say people. Must abuse others.
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Mzabalazo
PROUDLY INFIDELReport Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmDo not worry we are in the same boat, I just posted PRODLY INFIDEL because my 3 times my post were blocked, hardy, that is Sowetan for you.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
Don't play that game again. I hold God and Mohammed responsible, why, because they chose trivial issues to attend to and left the major issue of slavery. People were eating pork then God and Mohammed made sure that they stop eating pork, they did not phase out the eating of pork gradually , nor did they reformed it , as they did with slavery. Now what is important? This God saw slavery was wrong, if he did, I personally do not accept that, and instead of stopping it he writes in his holy book that slave woman can be used by their Moslem owner, what is that? Eating pork was the priority than his people making other suffer by slavery. Solm there is no way you can successfully defend this, that is how it is Allah and his prophet did not see it fit to stop this atrocity of slavery, instead gave permission to their subject to torment the woma slave, on top of that they are already tormented by been made slaves. If I do not blame God who do I blame for telling Moslem men to do as they please s#exually to their women slaves. Why did he do that? Didnt he have the power to not to sanction that, didn't he? Defend and support your prophet and his God but I as an infidel I know what is wrong, and that is wrong
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Mzabalazo, even pork is allowed to be eaten when you have no other halaal choice.Your life is far more important to preserve than eating of pork.Islam is practical, it weighs issues first before.Do you know at what stage of Islam pork was outlawed?Do you know that eating regulations and social laws were only dealt with at a later stage.In Islam the fundamentals are laid out in that verse which describes what is righteousness.If you read that verse outlining the fundamentals, you wont find eating pork there listed.You will find owning of slaves listed there among the fundamentals. Islam and justice go hand in hand.If you remove your blinds and prejudice, you will see much more.
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Solm
SolmDon't play that game again. I hold God and Mohammed responsible, why, because they chose trivial issues to attend to and left the major issue of slavery. People were eating pork then God and Mohammed made sure that they stop eating pork, they did not phase out the eating of pork gradually , nor did they reformed it , as they did with slavery. Now what is important? This God saw slavery was wrong, if he did, I personally do not accept that, and instead of stopping it he writes in his holy book that slave woman can be used by their Moslem owner, what is that? Eating pork was the priority than his people making other suffer by slavery. Solm there is no way you can successfully defend this, that is how it is Allah and his prophet did not see it fit to stop this atrocity of slavery, instead gave permission to their subject to torment the woma slave, on top of that they are already tormented by been made slaves. If I do not blame God who do I blame for telling Moslem men to do as they please s#exually to their women slaves. Why did he do that? Didnt he have the power to not to sanction that, didn't he? Defend and support your prophet and his God but I as an infidel I know what is wrong, and that is wrong
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Mzabalazo
SolmI am Arabs were eating pork as they like, just as they were having slaves as they like, but this God saw it more important to stop these people from eating pork( I know that you can eat anything preserve life, you can even wash with sand if there is no water in the desert in preparation for a prayer, that is not what I am talking about) yet he did not see it important do just that with slaves ( allow them to have slave only to preserve life lol). Solm he wrote that it was ok for a Moslem man to sleep with a woman slave, knowing very well that slavery was wrong. That to me is very unsettling and cannot find peace with it. It is wrong
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Mzabalazo
SolmWhy did Mohammed say it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with a woman slave.? Let's deal that, why should it be ok to do that?
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
You cannot be telling me that Isreal supported apartheid, we all now that and the Isrealis based their cruelty from their fore father Abraham who claimed superiority to others who had a different belief to his. Islam, Judaism, Christianity are no different , they just give the world same poison but in a different dose. Not long ago you were down playing our liberation now you say Isreal blah blah,
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Abraham did claim superiority above anyone anywhere.Who downplayed the South African struggle? Muslim countries financed the ANC in exiled, financed the ANC to compaign for 94 elections.You clearly dont know much.You just angry at the world.
you said we were not free because my government was corrupt. Yes the ANC is corrupt but we have choices and we make foolish choices most of the time but we are free to make choices, no one tells me what to eat or not to eat, what to sing or not, who to associate with. Or not wher to live leave, to me that is been free, far much better than living in your holy lands where the rights of infidels and women are trampled all the time, where people read Quran yet their government stinks.
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Your government has bigger problems.The choices they made pre-94 are treasonous to say the least.They lost the plot a long time ago.
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Mzabalazo
SolmRemember that what Mohammed wrote was a revelation from God through an angel, why should Mohammed be told to write that it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with his woman slave, and what was going on in God 's mind to ok such heinous act?
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
Why did Mohammed say it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with a woman slave.? Let's deal that, why should it be ok to do that?
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These were new Muslims Mzabalazo, they got into Islam much later when Islam was already 15 years.I dont think you understand the difficulty of administering this.These people had no knowledge of the fundamentals of Islam, they still had to be taught.This situation applies to those people, not everybody.Not every Muslims had slaves, not every new Muslim had slaves.The application of these temporal verses applied to specific people.People came into Islam with gabbage, there had to be a filtering process while they are taught the fundamentals.Its easy for you sitting in the 21st century to make abstract judgments on this issue.When you there dealing with all the dynamics at the same time, its a completely different situation.Its not right to sleep with anyone you not married to.But the reality is that you dealing with people who did far worse things than you make noise about.Such people had to be fixed, and fixing them needed a method.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
I am Arabs were eating pork as they like, just as they were having slaves as they like, but this God saw it more important to stop these people from eating pork( I know that you can eat anything preserve life, you can even wash with sand if there is no water in the desert in preparation for a prayer, that is not what I am talking about) yet he did not see it important do just that with slaves ( allow them to have slave only to preserve life lol). Solm he wrote that it was ok for a Moslem man to sleep with a woman slave, knowing very well that slavery was wrong. That to me is very unsettling and cannot find peace with it. It is wrong
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I dont think its fair to say God said it ok to sleep with woman slaves, its not fair to judge the manner in which He dealt with this issue at the bigining.Do you know how ridiculous what you saying is.Its like a smoker who smokes 20 cigarettes a day and come to me to seek advice.I know its going to be impossible for this smoker to follow advice which tells him to stop suddenly.So instead I tell the person to scale down on the smoking, from 20 a day in a weeks, 15 a day for the next week and so on until he gets to zero a day.What you doing is like turning around and blame me for saying this person should smoke 15 a day instead of nothing.Duh! You need to look at the whole process before your judge.
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Mzabalazo
I am blocked again PROUDLY INFIDELReport Abuse
Solm
At least you blocked, mine gets filtered now.It only shows the part where I quote what you wrote and not my reply.Report Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmThat is an excuse, a big excuse, other rules were inrtroduced to people, they were not told hat they may worship other Gods whom they worshipped before Islam say one a month, but slavery had to be perpertuated because these people were not getting the dynamics of Islam. Tell that to he brainwashed
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Mzabalazo
Sowetan you have won, I can' t do this anymore, it was nice to have this discussion with Solm and I do appreciate the privilege you allowed me so far. Solm we will meet in again, there was a Mali topic before and I posted in to. Hope Sowetan will again allow us on another blog- PROUDLY INFIDELReport Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmWho said Mohammed must write that it is ok for a Moslem to sleep with a woman slave? Wasnt Mohammed writing a revelation from an angel or was the slave business his idea not a revelation ? pleas give us a formular on whow we distinguish what is from God inQuran and what is from Mohammed
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Solm
@MzabalazoA lot of things creeeped into Islam that doesnt belong there, especially in Hadith.One of the hadith which says the Prophet married Aisha at 6 and consumated the marriage at 9 has been shown to be untrue.Such Hadith need to be filtered out.Lets look at this particular Hadith from Bukhari, one of the collectors of Hadith about 200 years after the death of the Prophet.Tabari, who was one of the companions of the Prophet tell us Abu Bakr( Aisha's father) had 4 kids and ALL his kids were born before the revelation.He also tells us when the suggestion was made to the Prophet to marry Aisha, she was already engaged to someone else.This guy who was engaged to Aisha cancelled the engagement after Abu Bakr and his whole family accepted Islam.The Prophet spent 13 years in Makkah and 10 years in Medina.Now methametically its impossible for Aisha to have been born and engaged BEFORE the revelation and be 6 when married the Prophet.If she was born and enganged before the revelation, she couldnt have been 6.This is the first problem.Secondly, Ibn Kathir, a historian and scholar, tell us Aisha's elder sister Asma died at 73 afte the migration to Medina and she was 100 years old and she was 10 years older than Aisha.A simple maths sheds some light on this, if she died at 73 after migration and she was 100, it means she was 27 (100-73) when the migration took place.The Prophet married Aisha 1 year after migration, which means Asma was 27+1=28.If she was 10 years older than Aisha, it means Aisha was 18 years old when she married the Prophet not 9 as reported.This Hadith was mistakenly reported and people are using this hadith to slander the Prophet that he was a paediphile and pervert.The kind of slander that was brought by this mistakenly reported is irreparable.
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Solm
@MzabalazoSolm
That is an excuse, a big excuse, other rules were inrtroduced to people, they were not told hat they may worship other Gods whom they worshipped before Islam say one a month, but slavery had to be perpertuated because these people were not getting the dynamics of Islam. Tell that to he brainwashed
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You cant compare whats due to God (worship) and whats due to fellow humanity (slavery). You are just a feminist without a cause.You spend too much time one issue and miss the point of the bigger picture.I dont know why you want to pick a fight with practices done over a thousand years ago.What about whats happening now in Africa? Why dont you make noise about reed dance?How about Zwelithini having girls lining up so that he can check them out and choose the one he likes?Lets hear you make noise about that.Make noise about ukuthwala!You are soo sellecting in your judgment.Hey suka la wena.You want to blame things that happened centuries ago in far away places but you cant see what happens NOW IN FRONT OF YOU.Where is your burning flame for what is happening in your life time, your country?You do all this and have a nerve to talk about brainwashing.Kusekude phambili la kuwe.
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Solm
I think I made my case here.I will wrap things up by saying this.Remember that God is in charge, He will administer ultimate justice when the time comes.He created everything and everything will return to Him.Remember also that you will stand in front of Him and answer for every action you make, every word you utter.Be kind and just how you deal with people, He will be fair and just when dealing with your affairs when you stand in front of Him.This is very important, you can forget everything else I told you, just remember that a time will come for you to stand in front of Him.Whether you believe it or not, you will stand in front of Him, whether you like it or not, you will stand in front of Him.Therefore woory more about yourself and where you stand in relation to your own hour of Judgment.Start fixing things from yourself.It was nice chatting to you.I did get upset and laughed at times but overall it was good chatting to you.Keep your head up.CheersReport Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmZwelithini and Mohammed are one and the same they both are Pedophiles . Answer this when do we separate God from the message that Mohammed Got from the Angel. Bra Gab. You guys say it all the time Quean is a message from God yet I should not blame God for women slave and just slavery as it is.
Giving me the mumbo jumbo yokuthwala and Zwelithini's pedophiliic mentality does not justify slavery and Mohammed 's pedophile mentality
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Mzabalazo
SolmYour God is as bad as Mohammed. He supports slavery and pedophiliic mentality, how can an old man many a child, this is reality ubsurd. Instead of explaining what I ask you jump all over the place, from Isreal to Zwelithini's who I really do not even give a d#anm about. You Quran says Moslem man are allowed to sleep with their woman slaves, you claim that was a compromise because people did not understand the dynamics of Islam, yet they was no compromise in worshipping other Gods they had to stop even though they did not understand the dynamics, that is real b#ull scholar, real dogma
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Mzabalazo
SolmGod is in charge of you not me I'm PROUDLY INFIDEL tell your God to go to paradise And stop messing our earth with filthy teachings we have enough already, we do not want him with his pedophiliic and slavery mentality, let him go practice that nonsense in heaven, we have enough of that trouble already without the encouragement from the Quran
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Mzabalazo
PPROUDLY INFIDEL! PROUDLY INFIDEL and ANTI -CHILD ABUSE! ANTI- women abuse by corrupt people claiming they have a revelation allowing MOSLEM MALES TO SLEEP WITH WOMEN SLAVES. Away with ARABIC dogma, this is not on. The world does not need another organized religious crime. Leave us alone with our earthly lives and go to your paradise where pedophilia, slavery and forever virgins are. PROUDLY INFIDELReport Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmI wish that day was real, I will cause a revolution in heaven, what is alleged Satan did will be nothing, I will send your God to His maker, he will never again bully humans again, naughty lazy whatever thing he is. Bullying us because he has special powers to H#ell with him , for all the genocides, children abuse, people marrying children like Mohammed, for all the atrocities committed then and now under his holy filthy name. I am waiting for that day Solm, you want us to praise total bullying from a stupid God who wants us to be slaves nonsense. I am waiting tell this Bully that I am waiting for that day when I will tell him personally and I hope he won't dapuck and dive like you do
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Mzabalazo
SolmI am not afraid of a God who encourage slavery and pedophiliic mentality. Allah did not see anything wrong with his pedophiliic prophet marrying a child, tell him when you pray that I am not even afraid of his threats, he is a useless God with all the powers he has, children are bombed in Syria, children made orphans in Africa and corruption and unfairness is rife all over the world while he is concerned about halall and RAMADAN, he is useless. Making people suffer on earth and promise that's a pipe dream in paradise. That paradise is worse that the earth you are living in, ask Satan he will tell you, that is not a place for anything, God is the worst tyrannt , ruthless ruler and stupid to allow all that is happening for billions of years when he has the power, he is worse that the USA govt.
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Mzabalazo
SolmCheers , don't forget to tell Him that I am waiting for that day, He will regret having an appointment with this girl, I mean it , I wish to meet this BULLY called GOD.
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Mzabalazo
PROUDLY INFIDEL I rest my case.Report Abuse
Solm
May He forgive you Mzabalazo and give you guidance before your time is up.May He not hold what you say about Him against you.You have no idea what you talking about.Its better for you to keep your misinformed opinions to your self, in that case you will only be responsible for your own actions.If you mislead others, you will be responsible for them.You dont want that believe me.Its interesting that you believe the crap Satan tells you but disbelieve God.I have nothing to ask Satan your friend. I have no business with Him.When you standing in front of Him, Miss Keyboard worrior, you will have no defence against His Judgment.Neither you nor your friend Satan will stand a chance.God runs the place, 24/7.God didnt make anyone suffer.If you want to know who is causing all the sufferings, ask your friend Satan.He knows who is messing things here on earth.Report Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmYou people are the same, when I talk about the issue in hand you refer me to something else, Moslem would say you cannot make noise about ancestral worship and Christianity and Christians will say you will not make noise about Islam and Ancestral worship, guess what this girl does, because all of these are man made practices, all of them are primitive and oppressive, this girl doesn't pick and choose, that is why Shredder was passing a remark on how far would you take it, she knows that I have no respect for any kind of worship, be it Native or foreign to Africa like the imported Islam , Christianity Hinduism or any for that matter. PROUDLY INFIDEL, it depends on the topic, angina so isiphandla, and angikhethi ukuthi urbanity olds engulf abantwana under the name of marriage whether it's a traditional practice or religious practice and so just you know I detest people who defend it like you did on Mohammed, because you think it's due to people not God, that is unspeakable, down with Pedophiles , be it they are Christians, Zionist, Moslem or Traditionalist, I hate them with passion that is why I will never accept Homammed, he was a pedophile
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Mzabalazo
SolmSatan cannot be my friend as I do not support Pedophiles and slavery He is yours and Mohammed as those practice are exactly what he wants, so in that manner God and Satan are just sides of the same coin, they enjoy tormenting people, they like to bully people, they like to control people and they both get the thrill out of human suffering, they are both cruel aliens who need to vacate our earth with their worshippers and let us be, we do not need them.
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Solm
I know you think ukuthwala is mumbo jumbo, its not a big deal for you because its from you friend.You not after your friend, its God you after.Good news for you, you will meet with Him.Lets see what you got keyboard worrior.You and your friend are bluffing eachother, when both your Judgment comes, you wont stand it.I pity you really, you the one misled here.It pains me to see you setting yourself for a double suffering.As a black person you suffered/ suffering in this world.It would be a tragedy for you to suffer in the next world too.The punishment of the next wold is more severe.This is what pains me about you.Report Abuse
Solm
I came here to correct your approach to certain verses, I discharged that duty with what Im capable of.I didnt duck and dive as you would like to assume yourself by.I explained everything to you in details.But I cant speak to the wall or myself.You formed opinions about Islam even before knowing facts.Because you remain unmoved in that opinion, no heaven and earth will make you change your mind.This exercise is pointless the because we really dealing with the symptoms of a problem and not a problem itself.Your problem is that you proudly infidel as you state.This is the crux of the matter here.Only God guides who He pleases, nobody else.You like a broken record, repeating things over and over again without really wanting to apply your mind.Yes I will defend Mohammed and God, with my life is I have to.I will defend them against your empty rhetoric, I will defend them against slander, I will defend them against corruption, I will defend them againt your friend Satan. The fearlessness you claim against God's Judgment, is the fearlessness I have for your and you friend.I can take you which ever way you come.You want a debate, lets have at it, anything you choose anywhere, I will defend God and His Prophet in anyway I can.If your claim about God is true, then it looks like we one of a pair then dont you think?We the exact opposite.How wonderful!Report Abuse
Solm
@Mzabalazo'need to vacate our earth with their worshippers and let us be, we do not need them'
Really? This is YOUR earth? When exactly did you make or buy this earth from whom? Your delusion is much more serious than I thought, you really are lost.
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Solm
By the way as a side comment.Whether you accept Mohammed or not, its of no consequence to him.You can call him anything you want.It really wont change anything.You can play your games with others, Im not that gallible.Its not going to work with me.God lit my way and guided me.I can separate wheat from chuff with sheer ease.No amount of saber rattling intimidates or confuses me.Report Abuse
Mzabalazo
SolmWe need not to b#uy earth or did we need to b#y Mzansu to own it? We needed not to purchasing things is just as man made as religion itself
I do not have no problem with you worshipping whatever it does not matter to me but you cannot shove your beliefs down my throat as a fact, your hell and earth are real to you but not with me so you cannot tell me that wether I believe not I will face Him in the day of judgement because it's tit for teet, whether you believe in judgement or not there no judgement and standing in front of anybody .
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Mzabalazo
SolmYou got it all wrong who is trying to intimidate the other here, it's you, telling me about the mumbo jumbo judgement nonsense just because I cannot accept your Islam jokes. Read what you wrote then you will know where my answers come from, you want to keep quite when you give empty threats on me about judgement day that you uses to scare your converts.
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Mzabalazo
SolmWhat do you call yours is it not grandeur ,yours is worse my friend worse, no one bought to become citizens of where they were born, we do not even have to purchase to be in our mothers womb, so your question is irrelevant
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Mzabalazo
SolmPeople who are delusional are those who imagine themselves living in paradise, marrying virgins in heaven, hat is delusional my friend, very delusional
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DinuZulu
I sued to care about people from different religions then mine and actually have a Koran at a point until i met the Moslems in the Western Cape. This place is filled with Gangsters "depending where you live" and they are all Muslims and even at work during the most spiritual time of fasting the slamse here treat others with such disrespect and rudeness especially the women.As a Nguni man and one of South Africa's native people I don’t walk around demanding respect but these people are taking it over board. The native people of South Africa are "Qhoi Qhoin, Qhoi San, Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, Shangaane, Phuti, Hlubi, Swati, Ngwane, Thembu, Zizi, Bhele, Mpondo, Bhaca, Mpondomise, Mfengu to menstion the least.
This is not sadiarabia, these people came to our land with Engelish Slave ships by the name of Jintu and today are acting like we owe them something. I say F*ck off back to where you basterds come from...
Kind Regards
X Muslim respecter but that was changed by the rude Muslims i work with at work!
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