GwedeMantashe\ANC said yesterday that NATIONALISATION is not economical sound option, they propose alternative to strategic minerals whatever they mean by that.Problem is the anc elite are embedded with the capitalists now they have to speak in tongues to satisfy everybody!! Report Abuse
@Lamola firstly will have to NATIONALISE your mother and her kuku will be expropriated. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
DjEp
Lamola save your breath,ANCYL is not a political party and thus no one has/will vote for you! Since the ruling party which goes on the ballot said no nationalisation of mines then get used to it as it will never happen in this lifetime.. Report Abuse
THIS HOBO MUST GO BACK TO ZIM ND TAKE BATH LOOK AT HIM TJERRRRRRRRRRRRR HAMBOGEZA SAN Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Mgaraji
They are clinging to nationalisation & land grab call like monkeys clinging on the falling branch, knowing that without the two rejected proposal they got nothing else to say. Throught intimidation & hurling insults these cowards completely run out of ideas. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Based on the incorrect facts that Ronald is spewing Im guessing he didnt do his homework. Eish, fools love to shoot their mouthes off. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
spatch
malemas G for woodwork has been ecliped the anc's H for economics.
Sooner rather than later the economy collapses and it's back to the mud hut for some decades of starvation and related illnesses.
It's the african way, there is no escape, except for the few thousands.....mostly politicians..... who have managed to loot enough from the trough.
Lamola, you are like a fly in the room: Not dangerous but irritating, and easy to squash if necessary. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
Lamola I fear that what one reds here get the feeling that the racist right wingers& belligerent tribalist are rejoicing even some media houses are claiming that Nationalisation debate is finished!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
MicaParis
How many times do we have to tell this children that we cannot be able to Nationalise Private assets. There are four main core factors that will make us never to Nationalise until they are all meet which are Illiteracy, Lack of Skills, Corruption, Lack of Funding and Lack of Legal Platform to nationalise. Pity if you are legally and economically illiterate like Lamola and Malema you will never understand what we are talking about. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Thebuster
VENDALIOUS
@Lamola firstly will have to NATIONALISE your mother and her kuku will be expropriated.
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How dare yu, insult his mom over a politics,I think yu shld 1st learn how politics work b4 yu utter dis hogwash yu've no repct. I wonder who ur parents are.yu're pathetic to say de least.
As for the other critics,get to knw the bad and the good of al dis issues b4 yu critisize.how much did the whites pay 4 de land that they own? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Toivo
It's sad that when a young man is putting views up there and challenging for ideas to be debated, the bloggers here decide to throw insults and use vulagar as well as violent threats. To use the sad incident where Wandile Mkhize was killed, to threaten people is just not on and should be trashed by every sound minded person.
Use this space to share ideas, especially on a subject of national importance like this one. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Toivo - "Use this space to share ideas, especially on a subject of national importance like this one."
Nationalisation is a failure. It will NEVER work.
Botswana runs an equal partnership with the mining company and the state. South Africa receives MORE income from tax revenue, than the equal partnership mines in Botswana does. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
malemaforpresident
Viva Comrade Lamola Viva ba ya tshaba makwala ba ya nyeela we getting closer we are going to Nationalise the minirals of this country and expropriate land without compesating thieeves mooeer these people stole our land the first target should be Anglo American platinum and Anglo gold these people are stealing the wealth of our country Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
RobinH
You are a complete numbskull, Mr Lamola. Worse than a stuck record - with bad scratches. Can't read and don't listen. The way to get ahead. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Selab
Mantashe is problem is that he is one of the directors of the mines such as Silicon Smelters pty ltd in polokwane. That is why he hardened his head. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Toivo - Meanwhile, the ANCYL, who had millions stolen from its investment firm, is now looking for new sources of income. The government and its trillion rand budget, and its annual corruption of R30 billion (That we know of), is looking for more ways to access money in South Africa.
According to the government, all stolen land claims have been resolved, bar 3 cases which is underway. Hence, the 'stolen land' argument is no longer valid.
People who have been displaced from their land because of legalised theft during apartheid, have been compensated, or had their land returned to them.
Meanwhile, ANC just made another dodgy business deal with hitachi. I just wonder why the billions that the ANC makes from its investments, are not used to buy mines or businesses?
MicaParis
Pity if you are legally and economically illiterate like Lamola and Malema you will never understand what we are talking about.
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For the record Madam, Cde Ozzy is an admitted attorney of the High Court of South Africa, so the words legally illiterate just proves your ignorance. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
malemaforpresident - LOL, shouting 'we are getting closer' doesnt mean you are getting closer :P Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Selab
Mantashe is problem is that he is one of the directors of the mines such as Silicon Smelters pty ltd in polokwane. That is why he hardened his head.
Called "embedded communist" with capitalist what a mix comrade Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Chichi7
Youth league needs to finally realise that they are not running the country and should shut up. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
LijahaSisu - So he's a laywer, not an economist? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Chichi7 - Indeed, like i said yesterday, people vote for the ANC. But they didnt vote for SACP/COSATU/ANCYL.
Those 3 entities have no say in what goes on in the country. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Toivo
Sinudeity - Your position or understanding of the SA land reform status is not correct but I won't waste time to update you because you seem to be already committed to it. I say this because you have manufactured your supposedly facts and it is a well known fact that the land reform process is far from over. My position is that land should be given to deserving people who will make meaningful use of it.
On nationalization you seem to conclude (I don't know based on what) that I'm in favour of it. To me the ANCYL should come up with detailed proposals on how this should happen, then I'll make an informed opinion. Lastly, it's a fact that the current SA situation on these two issues cannot be just left as it is, because that's just not sustainable.
This boy honestly refuses to understand that strategic minerals not mines would be looked at so that the country can benefit from prescious resources. If you are able to construct a meaning-ful sentence and understand it, which means atlist educated enough you will see that this is not nationalisation.This is basicly a way of saying lets confuse these idiots in the Youth League and deal with them one by one. Ronaldino Lamola must just tell us how will the strategising be implemented will it be in line with the constitution???? Jah gone are the days when the YL made sense out of a conferense they put together, now we have unrepentant cretins running the show or should I say circus!!!!!! Lamola my chief you still have a chance get education and read a bit on economic especialy local econonmics at list once a day comrade, and you will see like Pule who realised your pie in the sky and pigs would fly policies are mentaly retarded!!!!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Toivo - "Your position or understanding of the SA land reform status is not correct but I won't waste time to update you because you seem to be already committed to it."
Sounds like a copout to me :P
"say this because you have manufactured your supposedly facts and it is a well known fact that the land reform process is far from over"
My stats are straight from the government dude. We've discussed this, and linked facts ad nausium. Pity you dont want to accept the truth dude.
"To me the ANCYL should come up with detailed proposals on how this should happen, then I'll make an informed opinion. Lastly, it's a fact that the current SA situation on these two issues cannot be just left as it is, because that's just not sustainable."
LOL, the current situation in SA isnt sustainable. Pity that the pillars to correct it are being torn down by your party. Education and good governance.
I'll say again, there is no working policy for nationalisation. The ANCYL cant make up policies, they dont have the brains or the skills for it.
The kiddies should go play outside, and let the adults discuss things. Report Abuse
Toivo
You are making sense my brother but do you think that the YL can even draft a proposal on this issue when all they do is being obsesed with power?? They know we wll never nationalise because this requered at list 3 trillion rands which the country does not have. How can a country raise 3 trilion just to buy out all mining entities is very stupid to even think that. The land issue is a very serious one and it has a potential of land graps which are getting eminent every day, the latargic prorammes they have are not working a decisive decision must be taken urgently. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
MorenaWaPolelo - On top of that, the government has been issuing mining licenses to foreign countries. Australia is a big foreign miner in South Africa. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
President’s son is worth billions of rands all of a sudden nationalisation is not a viable option maar it has been the cornerstone of the FreedomCharter and everyone has been comfortable with it during the dark days.Perhaps these co-option of the few by the capitalist makes them to think they can think for the masses.KZN-MK veterans said it in public\tv who ever opposes Zuma is gonna meet violence becuase they come from the province with another kind of violence I don’t know abt murder of mkize maar apartheid security is no more perhaps 3rd-force still around & who support it now ?. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Tasto - Err, no. Zuma's son was IN FAVOUR of nationalisation, because he couldnt operate his mine. His workers went unpaid for over a year.
He wanted his mine nationalised, so that he state could buy his mine back from him. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
MorenaWaPolelo
Tasto
President’s son is worth billions of rands all of a sudden nationalisation is not a viable option maar it has been the cornerstone of the FreedomCharter and everyone has been comfortable with it during the dark days.
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With due respect that Charter is not a blble or the koran it can be subjected to chnages like any other policy document, Freedom was a coner stone not this nationalisation bullsh1t the small boys are talking about. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
On MetroFM talkshow I listened to ZKodwa saying that in Mangaung there will be no leadership change because it’s not good for the country to change in the first five-year leadership. I was left dumbfounded by such diatribe nonsense! Desperate times call for desperate measures\lies!!If not fit to govern you must go period, gonna get recalled – Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
MorenaWaPolelo
Tasto
Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still
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Do you honestly believe your self? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
MorenaWaPolelo - On top of that quite a few of the points listed in the freedom charter, are ignored and regularly broken by the ANCYL:
There shall be equal status in the bodies of the state, in the courts and in the schools for all national groups and races;
All people shall have equal right to use their own languages and to develop their own folk culture and customs;
All national groups shall be protected by law against insults to their race and national pride;
Meanwhile, the YL kiddies are regularly spewing insults at white folks. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@MorenaWaPolelo
Tasto
Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still
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Do you honestly believe your self?
Put any possible skullduggery@Manguang aside,I beleive in myself !! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
MorenaWaPolelo
Sinudeity - I get your point but Er.. Khulubuse is not Zuma's son that BIG GUY is the niece Sir!!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@MorenaWaPolelo & lyour little whitye rightwingers rejoice, the same ancyl gonna expect it to campaign for you for 2014!! Can't wait for 2014 !!
Tasto - Yeah, I cant keep track of all the Zuma b@stards. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
SOLAtiShower.antiZUUm
VENDALIOUS
@Lamola firstly will have to NATIONALISE your mother and her kuku will be expropriated.
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I don't think you belong here in SA, Lamola is raising democratic views representing members of the ANCYL, therefore you have No right to put such a bad atterances which are very insulting and disrepectfull to his family as your comment. If you have nothing to say or comment on you must jst Shut Up!!! I hope your not a parent of somebody cos such a child will be raised by an immoral stupit parent. Report Abuse
Twelvemonths ago this is what he said&everybody is running scared trying to appease everybody.
http://mg.co.za/multimedia/2011-06-21-the-10-sayings-of-president-malema/medium
PS - He said you can must put in archives he will lead the anc!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
STOPA
you did not win anything papa; those are future plans of our movement and is just that domkops like you and your allies are jajarag. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Uh, I I nowhere near as well educated as most people here, but I have a few questions. Why are we even fighting the land issue amongst ourselves as SAns? See, I look at it this way. European countries (their kings and queens) sent ships to Africa and claimed the land. They then sold the land to white people from their countries, many times under false pretences, such as making people believe that there were no people living on the land here. The white.s who now own the farms, had nothing to do with those days gone by. Now, shouldn't we be holding these COUNTRIES responsible for the predicament SA is currently in? I've asked many times that should the land be taken now, for the poor, who is going to build them a house, give them access to water, electricity etc, etc. What if we as SAns can start some international court case holding these countries responsible for their actions back then, and make them pay for the betterment of the poor in SA? Any legal points on this thought? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
1tsotsi
We have said it before, and we going to say it again... Nationalisation is going ahead, President Malema was not in London as a coinsidence, But to let those British understand what he means not what its being said by the Media.. The only thing that left is for a correct model to be put into Place, many young Proffesionals are getting ready to be Part of this Revolution where, all people will share whats underneath our soil, Report Abuse
Comrades lets not lose focus and leave those who speak in tongues alone and focus on reality!!
@OLDLADY4 - Berlin Conference of 1884-85, Europeans saw it fit among themselves to rape Africa of its resources and dissposes Africans its land and this mentality is still prevalent even in this blogg!!
@1tsotsi
We have said it before, and we going to say it again... Nationalisation is going ahead, President Malema was not in London as a coinsidence, But to let those British understand what he means not what its being said by the Media.. The only thing that left is for a correct model to be put into Place, many young Proffesionals are getting ready to be Part of this Revolution where, all people will share whats underneath our soil
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slow learner, you mind is young and not ready for what you are trying to highlite Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
RobinH
Tasto, You are one serious racist SOB. The time for that sh!t is long gone. Try constructive interaction, if you are able. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
1tsotsi
VENDALIOUS
@Lamola firstly will have to NATIONALISE your mother and her kuku will be expropriated.
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I just hope that if you have Kids, they grow up to be better persons than you are, M sure you were born Talking.......... You such a first class Clown whos seeking attention as if you dont have a family. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
So called of treaty Europeans @Vereneeging, decided to exclude native of this land from its resources and affiars and disposse the land in 1913, now we are being expected to beg for this land.
Mugabe waited for 20years for the Lancaster agreement before he decided towent it alone, now whiteys ask yourselves "why does your Queen not re-invade Zimbabwe".England knows it well they can't be seen dablling in double-standards!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
The was Berlin_Conference in 1884-1885,Vereneeging treaty in 1909 and this have direct bearing in the current situation of this country.Problem is just whites like not to own up! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
The other thing Rhodes, the Oppenheimers were not entrepreneurs as we are made to believe but were sent here by European capitalists familys\conglemerates to capitalise\tenderpreneure on the outcome of the BerlinConference and other Imperialist skims! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
1tsotsi
STOPA
@1tsotsi
We have said it before, and we going to say it again... Nationalisation is going ahead, President Malema was not in London as a coinsidence, But to let those British understand what he means not what its being said by the Media.. The only thing that left is for a correct model to be put into Place, many young Proffesionals are getting ready to be Part of this Revolution where, all people will share whats underneath our soil
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slow learner, you mind is young and not ready for what you are trying to highlite
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Is that the best you can say? Wow!!! Indeed theres no price for Stupidity. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Tasto, see, you are giving strength to my argument. If what you say is true, and the rape of African land was agreed upon in Europe, and the Oppenheimers etc were sent here by European capatalist families and all the other stuff, why hold a few farmers and mine owners responsible? Hold EUROPE responsible. Does that not make more sense?
@Sinudeity - If you think owning a shack means having land reform resolved then you're dreaming. You can even go check the good farming land and you'll realize we have too MANY African farmers that own a fraction of good farming land that's owned by their FEW white counterparts. Surely this must tell you that this equation is not right and I promise you it's not sustainable. I was asking a white colleague "Mr Lategan" who happens to own a farm what his views are. He said he is selling a portion of his farm to a cousin who is a "Makgoba". This must tell you we have issues and the white farmers are aware of it, hence they're trying to evade a proper redress process by doing what I've just mentioned above. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
David-
Tasto
Does land legal purchased after 1994 still count as stolen land?
Also there are a instances where white settlers were gifted land by the local chief in exchange for assistance that they provided to him, usually in sorting out troublesome neighbors.
As for whole scale nationalization it wont work, the implications for our country would be to severe and I am not talking about the mine, land or bank owners. In our economy everything is connected and nationalization would create a ripple effect through the entire economy
Toivo - You dont even realise that the government owns the majority of land in South Africa :P Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
David-
Toivo
You need to balance your statement above with our need for food security, taking a massive commercial farm and breaking it into small plots so that every one gets a piece is not viable.
Also you need to ensure that people getting the land have the necessary skills and capital in order to properly utilize it. Farming today is a science it is no longer a case of just chucking some seeds in the ground and waiting to see what comes up.
Tasto
On MetroFM talkshow I listened to ZKodwa saying that in Mangaung there will be no leadership change because it’s not good for the country to change in the first five-year leadership. I was left dumbfounded by such diatribe nonsense! Desperate times call for desperate measures\lies!!If not fit to govern you must go period, gonna get recalled – Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still!!
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Comrade be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. Comrade Zizi did not say there will be no leadership change in Mangaung. Lies lies and more lies. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
sgubhusenkwishi
Nationalisation of minerals and expropriation of land is politically correct to undo the wrongs that the greedy imperialists did to africa and africans, however one should not be ignorent of how part and the correct timing to do it , which is a cause of concern to many that exagerate fears to us(african) as beneficiaries and create conflict of interests that still divide us and give a chance to capitalists opportunists to exploit our weaknesses on the same way as colonialists to abuse this window to cling on this and enhence their self enrichment on our asserts.
The whole issue and question we have on this, is to get a way forward, is all about trust and conducive environment to do it and right timing .Zimbambwe has done it and proved to be a failure hence is used to justify the african weakness on this that is further used against us (africans) to further victimise the already victims whilst benefitting the thiefs.
Solution is, we have to do our home work properly before we can agree to embark on this policy.
The problem that we have as our measure enemy is corruption, that impede and block people access to their asserts and resources. We have got resources at present that are not equally distributed to benefit all south africans. The govt of a day becomes the enemy no. one of its citizens, as current govt officials are benefitting themselves to national resources , hence creating a dreadful economical gab between the nation of have and have nots.
The resources we have, they dont belong to the govtning party but the nation. If the govt can afford equal distribution and proper regulation of resources, improve human resources and skills without prejudices, for south africa as a nation not a political party, invest on agricultural and engeneering skills and education . That environment would be conducive enough for us as nation to have trust to pursue this policy to manage our own land and mineral resources for our own benefit as a nation, whilst cutting off the foreign domination over our asserts by imperialists.
This shouldnot sound as illussion , if the middle east is capable to manage the fuel asserts for their national benefits, why not us? The theory that we are failures or we will fail to do this should not get our approval, however we should aggressively and objectivelly work on obstacles on our way to gain national trust and get on with what is right for us as a nation, regardless of political affilliation. I am a bonafide IFP supporter but I share the same belief with the anc people on this however I beleive on a differrent approach to this, and believing that the success to this policy would take the conviction of our nation based on trust demonstration than theory and active elimination of corruption.
Anglo Americans pty should be curbed to the status of employees not employers to give us rightful role to our resources as owners than the way round. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Mgaraji
Sinudeity_
Toivo - You dont even realise that the government owns the majority of land in South Africa :P
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Yes government owns majority of land and the figure is inflated by rivers, mountains, uninhabitable land, infertile land etc. Fertile and habitable land is in the hands of minority. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Winilen
These ppl are stup!d & foolish yerrrr... we cannot afford to nationalise the mines we dont have skills 1st of all & corruption is worse look at goverment dpts, they must sort that out 1st nx!
Looks like these ppl dnt have anything else they can use to fight Zuma Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Mlaaaaaackza
Are people from Mpotshotsho location in Port St Johns *****I wonder you know the place)****** going to benefit from the nationalization of mines. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Mgaraji - The white people made the land fertile. Look at Swaziland, Lesotho... extremely fertile land. Whats it busy doing?
Mgaraji - In fact, if it wasnt for the mining companies, you wouldnt have unearthed the minerals anyways. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Ntumbane
Nationalisation and Expropriation sounds fine on paper but its practically impossible to implement in reality.The ANCYL knows this as well but they wouldn`t say.Only a few stands to gain out of millions and millions of poor citizens of this country. Nationalisation didn`t work in Zambia.Zambia is only producing about 30% of copper as compared to 90% in the ealry 80s.Our neighbour Zimbabwe couldn`t handle expropriation correctly the end result South africa`s social and health expenditure skyrocketed to 200% because the citizens of Zimbabwe are now benefiting from social grants and health services and this is putting much strain on our economy because their President made the same mistake Mr. Lamola is promoting in this country. I am afraid a lot of young South Africans will suffer due to shallow minds of some ANCYL members who are only pushing this agenda for their benefit. Look at this boy Lamola, Lets be honest Do you see a potential leader in him?This boy is hungry for wealth. Once he officially occupies that Youth league president seat, heads will roll.Same as his predecessor Juju.What good did he do for the youth except attending VIP gatherings?
To hell with thieves like Lamola and his comrades.The economy is doing just fine as it is.I have heard a lot of middle aged people saying they were better off during Apartheid than under the ANC. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Sgubhusenkwishi, in my opinion you are 100% correct. It should all be happening, but the main enemy is corruption. I think that's why so many people are against it. They know it cannot work while we have corrupt politicians in charge. The question now is... how to get rid of them. Our government officials are simply not held responsible for their corrupt activities, and are even protected by presidency, so it seems like a lost battle. Only a complete change in government, and then at least a 15 year period for the new government to prove themselves, can make land grabs and nationalisation a serious topic of discussion again. Until then, it will just be a shift of power of the colour of the few beneficiaries, with no benefit to the poor. Report Abuse
are all key strategic minerals. We need to Nationalise all of them
Then we go to all six banks including African Bank, Teba bank, Postbank, DBSA and everything else that uses the name bank...we nationalise it Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
FrantzFanon.Lives - How about starting your own banks/mines rather? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
FrantzFanon.Lives, to which political family do you belong? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FrantzFanon.Lives
OLDLADY
Any relevance to the subject of Nationalising Mines?
Please offer your own solutions and not ask where i belong. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
sgubhusenkwishi
I am against people who always say things cannot happen, that is not a right attitude or leadership on issues, But the right thing is we must hilight the arears of our concerns , propose solutions how do we deal with those things that are causes of our setbacks and get on with a job.
Negative attitude sometimes imprison people to infinite victimology whislt giving approvals to their abusers to legally abuse them as disabled thinkers.
Of course there is an issue of unpatriotic capitalist opportunists from within us who will always make loud noice for their end benefits, thus we need strict regulations against such rogue members. We cannt afford to have unqualified opportunist miners like Khulubuse Zuma , who emerge from nowhere than family ties to exploit our nation for their selfish interests. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Dudes in favour of nationalisation, JUST DONT GET economics, employment, taxes etc.
You dont benefit the country at all if you merely overtake an existing mine. Thats just stupid thinking that suddenly taking over mines will create more jobs. You wount create anymore jobs, you will most probably lose jobs.
What is needed is to CREATE jobs, CREATE NEW mining companies. South Africa needs to MOVE AWAY from being a producer of raw materials to REFINING raw materials and then PRODUCING finished products from the REFINED materials.
@Sinudeity - It is tendencies like yours that make the dispossessed or landless people of our country see no reason in engaging in a meaninful debate, for what they believe is theirs and was taken from them through violent means. The arrogance you display around the land issue shall be zipped - the current situation cannot be sustained.
@David - my position is that black & white people who will make meaningful use of the land should be afforded that opportunity and if they are making meaningful use of the land they will be able to respond to the food security needs. At the moment the good farming land is in the white minority hands. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "Of course there is an issue of unpatriotic capitalist opportunists from within us who will always make loud noice for their end benefits"
Lazy, socialists who just want to sit at home, do nothing, but get paid grants for it, should die off slowly, and stop having kids. Easy as that.
Just because you have fokol ambition, doesnt mean that YOU should drag ALL of us down to your level. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Toivo - "It is tendencies like yours that make the dispossessed or landless people of our country see no reason in engaging in a meaninful debate"
What meaningful debate? All the facts are presented to you. You are told that it will be detrimental to the rest of the country, and you. But you dont f***ing listen, You just keep on screaming your bull$h17.
"The arrogance you display around the land issue shall be zipped - the current situation cannot be sustained."
The IGNORANCE you display around the land issue has to be zipped and cannot be sustained. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Toivo - "...making meaningful use of the land they will be able to respond to the food security needs. At the moment the good farming land is in the white minority hands."
Yeah, the minority are making meaningful contributions to the country via the land. Meanwhile, 99% of the farms that have been handed over to bl@ck owners have FAILED. They are no longer fertile. Meanwhile, the minority are producing food and products that you ungratefully eat up, while shouting nonsense with your mouth full of food grown by white farmers. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@OLDLADY4
Tasto, see, you are giving strength to my argument. If what you say is true, and the rape of African land was agreed upon in Europe, and the Oppenheimers etc were sent here by European capatalist families and all the other stuff, why hold a few farmers and mine owners responsible? Hold EUROPE responsible. Does that not make more sense?
SteveBiko once said you can't be expected to hate the whip and love the man who wileds it !!
@Mgaraji
Tasto
On MetroFM talkshow I listened to ZKodwa saying that in Mangaung there will be no leadership change because it’s not good for the country to change in the first five-year leadership. I was left dumbfounded by such diatribe nonsense! Desperate times call for desperate measures\lies!!If not fit to govern you must go period, gonna get recalled – Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still!!
_________________________________________________
Comrade be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. Comrade Zizi did not say there will be no leadership change in Mangaung. Lies lies and more lies.
I was busy watching Olympics and one of my friends yrged me to listen to Sakina's show and what a sham he was trying as presidential spindoctor avoiding question or found wanting most of the time, yes I did listen carefully and felt rotten inside afterwards ! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
SHEMAN
Lamola you look too Illiterate...How can you carry the plans of Malema? He's fallen...He was a dump ass,and now you still feel like going on with where he left off !!!
"You got to feel like a man" Boy..
I'm a bit in the dark about the issue and would like to find out how it would help us, i.e, S.A people.
Which are the three known and prominent SOUTH AFRICAN companies that are involved with coverting these raw minerals that we have into consumable goods with the same, if not, even better efficiency currently being practiced by foreign companies?
Which SOUTH AFRICAN companies have designed the necessary mechinery for handling these the process of converting these raw minerals we have into consumable goods?
Is the any data to suggest that these SOUTH AFRICAN companies (if there are any) can take up the challenge without letting our economy take a dip?
@OFFLIMITS - try to follow the Euro-crisis, funny enuf some goverments tirned to NATIONALISATION of the banks to stabilise their economies in fron of IMF&WolrdBank noone said a word !! Do you get my drift?
Just whites like to think for us as if we are stupid, if nationalisation is being persuade in Europe right now whats wrong here in SA?
@Sinudeity - Do you know you can debate issues without throwing insults at others? Do you know you don't have monopoly on insults? Please grow up and when you're tired of egaging on this topic, you may just stop commenting. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Toivo - Im merely reciprocating. If you dont want me to return insults, then dont throw them. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
FrantFanon.Lives...relevance to nationalisation....sure. With our corrupt government only their cadres will benefit from nationalisation, not the poor. So....which political family do you belong to? As to my contribution, I've made my suggestions further up in the post already. Feel free to read them....or not.
Tasto, you quote a wise man nicely, but you still do not answer my question. Maybe I should say.... why hold ONLY a few responsible, why not hold them ALL responsible? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tokolosh
ANC Youth League deputy president Ronald Lamola What is his education? Just a grade 12? It is time that educated people start running the ANC and ANCYL else we just sit and get nothing but rubbish talk and corruption! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Tasto, what's wrong here in SA? Simple. Corruption. Sort that out, and the problem goes away. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Oshmax
This is what you get when an education system is destroyed, stupid ideas by uninformed people whose idea of progress is to destroy what's there. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Toivo
@Sinudeity - I never threw any insults but you are the one who just decided to throw them at me. There is not a single blogger that I ever threw insults at and in fact my first blog on this topic I persuaded the bloggers to debate the issues. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tokolosh
It is time that educated people start running the ANC and ANCYL!!!
Tasto
Where these governmets' economy dependant more or less around the same GDP as ours? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@OLDLADY4
Tasto, what's wrong here in SA? Simple. Corruption. Sort that out, and the problem goes away.
Where have you been, I have been called a bigot manytimes when posting the truth which normaly sits uncomfortbale with whiiteys on this site bloggin here!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Kekgethegile
Tokolosh
It is time that educated people start running the ANC and ANCYL!!!
_____________________________________________
Toivo - You did insult me, even though you might not realise your "tendencies". Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@OFFLIMITS
Tasto
Where these governmets' economy dependant more or less around the same GDP as ours?
My understanding the capitalist system works the same in developed and underdeveloped countries, remember many times it has been said that the NationalCreditAct that came during TMbeki administration had a cushion effect from this Euro-crisis.They are trying to drag us into, can you imagine developing country like ours taking R20billion to park @IMF to help these gluttoneous Europeans Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Tasto - But you have no problem borrowing money from the IMF? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Sinudeity_
Tasto - But you have no problem borrowing money from the IMF?
Fcuk you, we are talking Nationalisation here don't delibaratley sway discussion jou moer!!
@OFFLIMITS - Even your WorldPowerhouse is knee-deep and they want to blame the black president there - Merril Lynch disguised as acquisition by BankofAmerica &Bear Stearns disguised as acquisition by JpMorgan in US Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Tasto - Do you know what was the downfall of Greece?
Corruption and greed. The unions wanted more money for its workers than what the government could afford. Then followed the housing boom and bust.
Now the average dude in Greece has to take a knock in salary, but he doesnt want to do that.
Hopefully the government and the unions can take a lesson out of this. Alas, they wount. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Tasto - "Fcuk you, we are talking Nationalisation here don't delibaratley sway discussion jou moer!! "
LOL, but you brought up the IMF dumbF***. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
David-
What is with this wanting to nationalise the banks?
At the first hint that this is going to happen everyone will rush to withdraw their money (I know I will), Shares will be sold off in a panic with the result been a massive crash
Tasto
The number of commercial farmers has actually been declining which has resulted in us having to import more food and also most of the remaining farmers do make meaningful use of their land as it is their only source of income and they have ploughed millions into making it work.
I doubt wether most of us will care if the farmer is black or white as long as we get the food.
You also need to take into account that many farms are know been bought and run by corporations not individual farmers
Futuregrowth Asset Management, a unit of insurer Old Mutual Plc (OML) that oversees 110 billion rand ($13.3 billion) in fixed income investments, is buying farms in Africa to benefit from surging food prices.
Futuregrowth’s United Farmers’ Fund has spent 450 million rand buying nine fruit and vegetable farms in South Africa since December 2010. It’s now considering investing in a cattle ranch in Botswana, a coffee plantation in Ethiopia and fruit and vegetable farms in Burkina Faso, Morocco and Senegal, according to Duncan Vink, one of the fund’s founders and managing directors.
http://www.farmingportal.co.za/component/k2/item/1786-old-mutual’s-futuregrowth-buys-farms-as-food-prices-rise-in-south-africa
Tasto - "Even your WorldPowerhouse is knee-deep and they want to blame the black president there - Merril Lynch disguised as acquisition by BankofAmerica &Bear Stearns disguised as acquisition by JpMorgan in US"
Fcuk you, we are talking Nationalisation here don't delibaratley sway discussion jou moer!! :P Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Toivo
@Sinudeity - I suggest you go check the word "tendency" on a dictionary. There is just nothing insulting about that word. One wonders why on the other hand you think I might not realize. I insist I never insulted you and you did insult me. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Toivo - You could also check the word 'bab00n', and there is nothing wrong with it as according to the dictionary, but when used in the wrong context... Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Tasto, dude, I'm trying to find solutions here with you for the nationalisation problem, but you just name-calling doesn't help. Gluttoneous Europeans??? Sure. But our problem, here, in Africa, is gluttoneous Africans. How do you propose we get rid of them to make nationalisation work? Surely you are not saying nationalisation can work while we have these fat cat politicians and their families benefiting from every deal? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
David-
If you want a farm go here
http://www.farm-sa.co.za/index.html Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Toivo
Sinudeity - Enjoy the rest of the day! Report Abuse
@Sinudeity_
Tasto - Do you know what was the downfall of Greece?
Corruption and greed. The unions wanted more money for its workers than what the government could afford. Then followed the housing boom and bust.
Now the average dude in Greece has to take a knock in salary, but he doesnt want to do that.
Hopefully the government and the unions can take a lesson out of this. Alas, they wount.
No, shame damn poor workers !!
While at it my laanie fill me in abt Spain, US&Italy also what caused them to fcuk up their economies!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@OLDLADY4
Tasto, dude, I'm trying to find solutions here with you for the nationalisation problem, but you just name-calling doesn't help. Gluttoneous Europeans??? Sure. But our problem, here, in Africa, is gluttoneous Africans. How do you propose we get rid of them to make nationalisation work? Surely you are not saying nationalisation can work while we have these fat cat politicians and their families benefiting from every deal?
I came across a book @CNA how abt $500 billion of land in Africa is being leased by corrupt politicaians\individual for the benefit of the West,Kenya and Uganda they have the problem of hi-food prices of their local produce that is destined for Europe why ?
TMbeki is working with others on mssion to return the stolen wealth back to Africa for delopment purposes, in region of Trillion$ . Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Winilen
"nationalisation will not happen anytime soon"...too much is at stake Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Winilen
"nationalisation will not happen anytime soon"...too much is at stake
Very rrefreshing and brutally honest, the embedded communist&anc elite will stand to loose much indeed !! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Tasto, but firstly, for the theft to work, they needed a corrupt politician in Africa. Now what's the bet, no matter how much Mbeki gets returned, nothing will happen to the corrupt politicians. You can blame Europe all you want, and they are to blame for a lot, but it is time you also start looking at your own house. As long as your own house is dirty, you do sound like a bigot when you complain about your neighbour's house. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@OLDLADY4 - what is this nationalisation problem? Where has this happened, Spain has just nationalised one of its biggest bank and no problem so far ? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
David-
Tou also need to look east as they are also buying up large tracts of land in africa in order to secure food for their countries Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Tasto:
Spain - Huge trade deficit (10% of countries GDP during start of recession). Property bubble, its higher than neighbour inflation rate. 35% unemployment rate and public debt.
US: Property bubble, and mortage backed securities.
Italy: Quite stable during worldwide recession, but decrease in the country's industrial production and exports.
Anything else you wanna know? I can bet you Ronald didnt know this stuff. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@OLDLADY4 - I lament the fact that we have crook as apresident of the country & politically connceted terminally ill ghosts all over the golf courses !!
Tasto - You know that china is now in a recession as well right? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Tasto - Nationalisation doesnt work ANYWHERE. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Sinudeity_
Tasto:
Spain - Huge trade deficit (10% of countries GDP during start of recession). Property bubble, its higher than neighbour inflation rate. 35% unemployment rate and public debt.
US: Property bubble, and mortage backed securities.
Italy: Quite stable during worldwide recession, but decrease in the country's industrial production and exports.
Anything else you wanna know? I can bet you Ronald didnt know this stuff.
For a change A+ didn't flunk jou naai, I was expecting you to blame Unions&BarackObama !! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Tasto, with nationalisation problem, I meant the problem of us in SA not agreeing. Once again Spain, Europe, whatever. You can refer to any country to divert attention, it still does not address the corruption problem we have in SA. As long as we have the high corruption rate we currently have in our government, nationalisation can NEVER work to the benefit of the poor in our country, only to the benefit of the politicians. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Tasto - LOL, surprised you didnt blame apartheid or verwoerd for the world economic recession :P Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@OLDLADY4
Tasto, with nationalisation problem, I meant the problem of us in SA not agreeing. Once again Spain, Europe, whatever. You can refer to any country to divert attention, it still does not address the corruption problem we have in SA. As long as we have the high corruption rate we currently have in our government, nationalisation can NEVER work to the benefit of the poor in our country, only to the benefit of the politicians.
Once read an article in SundayTimes where the columnists wrote, coruption is prevelant everywhere in the world but in Africa it is an industry.Having said that tha should not divert attention from Nationalisation we have corruption now before Nationaliztion where do we attribute to?
Let us try to be logical and bring quality in our discussion for the sake of SA progress instead of allowing disguised rightwingers&reactionaries here to sow confusion and divisions.
Can someone please explain to these idiots that the more they call for nationalisation the more investors will go away, the more investors that go the more people die of hunger. IDIOTS in the making, Thank you anc for giving SA a sh!tty education system,,,, This is what you and your supporters create, problem is with your education system the uneducated can't see that this is the road to disaster and will happily vote for you. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Let us try to be logical and bring quality in our discussion for the sake of SA progress instead of allowing disguised LEFTWINGERS & COMMUNISTS here to sow confusion and divisions. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Tasto, the only logic here is that we need to get rid of this corruption, before we can talk nationalisation. Believe you me, as a white child, I also ha.ted the Oppenheimers and such for having it all, while we would not have been allowed to keep a diamond should we have picked it up. The feeling is not exclusive to the black African. But, none of that matter now. Only now matters now, and now we need to purge our government of corruption before we give them more to corrupt. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@OLDLADY4
Tasto, the only logic here is that we need to get rid of this corruption, before we can talk nationalisation. Believe you me, as a white child, I also ha.ted the Oppenheimers and such for having it all, while we would not have been allowed to keep a diamond should we have picked it up. The feeling is not exclusive to the black African. But, none of that matter now. Only now matters now, and now we need to purge our government of corruption before we give them more to corrupt.
Thats is why was against disbanding of the Scorpions&droping of charges with out allowing JacobZuma his day in court!!
Against informationBill and for the Independency of Judiciary in SouthAfrica, corruption has been around even Jesus was betrayed by one of the twelve !! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Buc4life
Some sectors of the economy can be nationalised so that everyone is on par, but the financial industry can never be nationalised, otherwise there will be chaos. First of all, it is important for the reserve bank to remain neutral. The governor of the reserve bank cannot be politically influenced, otherwise she will make wrong decision with regards to monetary decisions.
the problem we have in SA is lack of skills. If the government were to give fertile land to unskilled people then we would be pretty much like Zimbabwe.
In a democratic political system, nationalisation can never really work, because in a democracy people can own whatever they want without the influence of the government.
I wonder where did the investors in Greece,Spain,US,Italy went to after Nationalisation of the banks there? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OLDLADY4
Ja, but if Jesus live in SA today, he'd have been betrayed by eleven of the twelve. I also want my share of the mines, but I know I'd get nada if we nationalise before we prioritise. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Tasto - "I wonder where did the investors in Greece,Spain,US,Italy went to after Nationalisation of the banks there?"
Greece and Spain nationalised some of the banks (not all), and the investors pulled out of the country. Italy and US didnt nationalise the banks. The government bailed them out.
Investors withdrew out of greece and spain. They are now both crying for bailouts from Morkel. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
sgubhusenkwishi
@Sinudeity- You seems to be uncomfortable with everything and attacking everyone who comes up with a debate , hence I lose your take. Natiolisation and exproipriation is not an issue of africans but the issue is how can we as africans do it properly to ensure that it benefits all africans who lost their rights to land ownership and their resources to imperialists. But you seems to me to be out to protect those slave masters who exploited africans for years on their land under pretexts, that they were employers or job creators even though the land owners were forever poor under that unjust system.
Earlier on we all agreed that africans must be empowered with skills, education, while dealing with corruption fiercefuly to ensure that they can develop their land and use their resources to create jobs for people without depending on imperialists who capitalise upon african lack of skills to have grip on african land for their selfish interests.
On other side we never ignored those corrupted and selfish africans who render this process difficulty for us to agree upon, either as govt agents or govning party. Ofcourse we all agree on proper regulation by govt with south african interest at heart not the political party.
You might be making a meaningful farming production now on my fore fathers land, but I shouldnt loose the ownership of that land and you still have to pay rent to me for using my land as the owner of that land. In future when I am ready to farm my land or build on it for differrent purpose or mine it for any potential resources underneath , you shouldnt be an annoiying issue on my interests as a landowner. I beleive you know that that is how all the capitalistic world operate if you are enlightened enough.
So stop those theories of the old order in confining your thoughts in a closed tin. The sun doesnt revolve around your head.We all have the same interests in job creation but regulation would ensure the secured future welfare of the work force and employees dignity, not the captives or slaves of the greedy heartless capitalists. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - Your problem is, you want nationalisation, to take from the white man. You dont put any economic weight behind your discussions.
Your paragraph is full of things like 'imperialist', 'slave master' etc. etc. etc.
Unfortunately its totally devoit of any economic understanding. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
WESOTAN
what they know about nationalisation,I guess they think that everyone will own Mines and Farms then sit down and fold arms and wait for the Farms to caltivate itself as well as the Mines. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "You might be making a meaningful farming production now on my fore fathers land"
Like I said, all land claims from the unjust stealing of previously owned land by the apartheid government have been returned or recompensed. This is according to the government, and the courts of law.
You are just making noise now to try and justify YOUR theft. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - Show me ONE socialist country in the world where the people are well of. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Mgaraji
sgubhusenkwishi
Sinudeity_ & Wakeupsa are apartheid beneficiaries, 3rd force deployed by DA to devide Africans Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Mgaraji - LOL, yeah, and I also own 1 bank and 15 mines :P Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Ai do I even have the energy for this? Guys nationalization is a bad choice over and over again. Look at Panama? What did the powerhouse countries do? Boycott and sanctioned. We can not afford as a developing country to just oust our international investors, and the government sure as hell does not have enough money to buy out said investors without causing hyper inflation and more degradation. Just think like an economist and not like a ignorant human. Not even the ruling party believes it could work and if they don't think so how will a troop of baboons that can't even be unified think it could work? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Sinudeity_ - you liar or you think you have monopoly on information especially if pertains to Europe, Spain is caught between ordinary Spaniards who are withdrawing their money from local banks to overseas and investors who want to hold it at ransom with their pre-determined lending rates.Whole of Europe made a blunder probably by going single currency but they want to blame it on property bubble whateva tha means!!Rouge bankers created the mess in Europe&US!!
@Danielrjvvuren
Ai do I even have the energy for this? Guys nationalization is a bad choice over and over again. Look at Panama? What did the powerhouse countries do? Boycott and sanctioned. We can not afford as a developing country to just oust our international investors, and the government sure as hell does not have enough money to buy out said investors without causing hyper inflation and more degradation. Just think like an economist and not like a ignorant human. Not even the ruling party believes it could work and if they don't think so how will a troop of baboons that can't even be unified think it could work?
That is called bullying not failure of Nationalisation just like in Zimbabwe the West should take the blame for their tactics oops I forgiot that too much to ask.Look @ Iraq&Afgahnistan you can't blame the West there too !! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Tasto
Panama was rightfully sanctioned against when they took the canal without paying investors, its like me coming around to your house and taking your car, I did not pay for the car but hey lets take it its the nations. That is what is proposed here too. How would you otherwise buy out investors without stealing from them? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Danielrjvvuren - took US canal? Thats why we can't allow outsiders to do as they like with our land!!
Tasto
Please what a weak argument. US bought the canal with real money and when the US turned it into one of the busiest canals and boosted Panama's GDP by leaps and bounds they wanted a some of the pie and look at it now a leper colony. You want that same problem to happen here? Our main driver of our economy? What would sustain us otherwise hey? Agriculture? We don't have the skills to be a skilled labor economy so what then? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
You know what I'm going onto my FNB investor now and buying shares in the mines. Look I also own a slice of the pie now! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
Nationalisation is to South Africa what a shovel is for highway builder. Yes, you can move earth with it, but you will never finish the job. We need graders and CATS
I am concerned that the ANCYL want to promote that they are the brains trust of SA, but they cannot grasp the enormity of the problem that we face.
Once they get to grips with what we we need to do to reduce poverty, it will be come so clear that nationalization will only make matters worse, as we will be so busy fighting the problems it creates that we will never get to improve matters.
Don't try to drive the Titanic with a outboard motor, Lamola.
But it is not really about doing the right thing, hey. It is rather to get into power, you two-faced liar! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
Mugabe said Indigenisation of the economy and they all quee up to engage instead of blackmailing him and investors are still there.49% its a lot wonder why are they still hanging around uncle Bob?
@Danielrjvvuren - not well versed in Panamian domestic politics like you and neva beleived RReagan and the Mormons even up to today.May you fill me in plse but not crap !!
Tasto
Panama agreed in the 1900's with the USA to receive $10 mill for the purchase of the canal lands, now back then you could buy Europe with that money! $1 mill in 1903 = $24,613,670.55 today now times that by 10. Then when the canal was turned into something of great profit the people of Panama decided to take what was "theirs" and not pay anyone back. The panama people on top of that got $250 000 per annum from US to use the canal so they paid them for the land and rented it from them and bam! Sanction, boycotts and wars because the people got greedy Report Abuse
@Tasto
You r blindly defending nationalism when in actual fact has never had mainstay sucess, in a country like S.A where there is so much povert and Julias malema(coruption) it wil be worse, just look how Limpopo is curently run a clasic example, thats we say we say Zuma must remain to prevent the anarchist from the north to extend their loot throut the country Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
Danielrjvvuren
Yes, sadly - too busy lately, but I do read the comments if I get a chance. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Nyongoyamavenda - look @Mugabe Indigenisation of the economy (49% ownership of foreign businesses) they still sticking around uncle Bob!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Tasto
Yeah with hyper inflation being such an attractive option for investors.... Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
@sinudeity
Your ideas wil never help this country move forward,you argue on bigot groung and not in the best interst of this country moving foward,people like you and julis malema are a hindrance to this country realing its potential cos they arguments serve the narrow minded selfish ends Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
YNOTY
masende
THIS HOBO MUST GO BACK TO ZIM ND TAKE BATH LOOK AT HIM TJERRRRRRRRRRRRR HAMBOGEZA SAN
===============================================================
You need refrain from swearing at other people. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
FarCeSpotter
Same hey. Don't find so many articles I deem fun enough to comment on nowadays. They seem all dried up and uneducated, but just had to comment on this. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
sgubhusenkwishi
@Sinudeity- people havent got all their land back includ. me and recently the minister on land affairs has released the statement with regards to that saying a lot of land claimants has not been honoured, the policy of willing buyer- willing seller has failed.
You sounds bitter when I mention slave masters or imperialists , but more comfortable when I talk about corrrupted gvt officials and govt party, whats a matter with you.
I never pushed / suggested for any socialist state but my take is all about the nation regaining the rightful ownership of their own. My example is middle east whop controls its own fuel. However china is better off being a socialist contry than South africa and several countries.
Your fears are based on unproven economical theories, I never say people shouldnt work. But for arguement sake as you push me to, what differrent do you think you have in your economy, our people are on grants, free toilets, free small houses and they now want free electricity, who pays for that my tax and yours, how than do you see yourself as differrent from the socialist states? wake up sir. that is evidence based you dont even need to waiste your time in library to know about these. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
@tasto
Just the fact that you mentined zimbabwe shows that you are not even honest with yoself, If SA can be in the Zimbabwe is i think we can have a full civil war so stop making an example with Zimbabwe which as we speak rigth now there is shortage of food Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "Your ideas wil never help this country move forward,you argue on bigot groung and not in the best interst of this country moving foward,people like you and julis malema are a hindrance to this country realing its potential cos they arguments serve the narrow minded selfish ends"
I only argue on the best interests of the country. Are you a pro-nationalisation dude? So thats why MY ideas are not good for the country, but yours are?
LOL, what? Fail the debate and then you going to call me right-wing, third force etc as well? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Guys education education education! We need education. We can not build a house on weak foundations. Build it from the ground up better educated kids less AIDS and teen pregnancies and more University enrollment skilled labor. The answer is not in taking the mines the answer is taking the minds. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Winilen
My Fellow blogers let get one thing straight nationalisation is too risky.... very few companies are owned by SAns & i am not talkin abt tenderpreneures...we are not tht productive we depend too much on import and i cant blv that we are buying maize overseases...
Nyongoyamavenda - "I never pushed / suggested for any socialist state but my take is all about the nation regaining the rightful ownership of their own."
So what makes something yours? Being a specific colour, or paying for it? You are under the perception, that whites just received land for free. That just isnt the case. Everybody pays to Ceasar what is due to Ceasar.
"However china is better off being a socialist contry than South africa and several countries."
China AINT a socialist country. Its economy is run as a capitalistic system. The only communist/socialist is how it manages its people. That includes death penalty, low minimum wages, no freedom of information etc. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Nyongoyamavenda
@tasto
Just the fact that you mentined zimbabwe shows that you are not even honest with yoself, If SA can be in the Zimbabwe is i think we can have a full civil war so stop making an example with Zimbabwe which as we speak rigth now there is shortage of food
Last week was reading a newspaper MorganTsangarai asking for lifting of sanctions against Zimbabwe now I don't know the domestic politics there like you as you seem in your last post, pardon me professor!! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@ Danielrjvvuren
Unfortunatelty not well versed in Panama Canal Treaty of 1903 and question sovereignty of Panama.Hope you can fill me in here also abt US military aggression!!
@Sinudeity
No you argu to protect your tribe not to advanc natinal agenda you must rememba SA has many tribes who must find the way to share the resources fairly and peaceful and dont forget that apartheid existed and blacks were deliberately excluded, a way must be find to ensure that at least they are pushed if this country and its future will be stable Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
OFFLIMITS
FarceSpotter
"Don't try to drive the Titanic with a outboard motor, Lamola."
LOL...that jus causes ripples in the water.... Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Tasto
If you spend Millions on a car and I take it won't you fight for it too? Or would you do the saintly thing and let me drive off with your prized car? I'm not versed in saintly behaviors maybe you can fill me in. Its like your standard rebuttal if you do not know what to write. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Danielrjvvuren - there was an article abt a white farmer that has a squatter building a mansion in his property how do you solve this?
@sinudety
Yes whites received a big chunk of land for free,remember Vryheid republic and how it was founded zulus were defeated and their was taken, do you want us to take back our in that form we have chosen reconcialatin, dnt mention the 1913 land acts where blacks were simply moved to an unsable land Report Abuse
Nyongoyamavenda - And nationalisation will push that country in the right direction? You dont agree with nationalisation right?
Do you KNOW what the problem is with South Africa and the unemployed?
Education, and overpopulation.
In the past 20 years, we've had more black billionares pop up than what apartheid could manage in 40 years. Not even the apartheid government could create millionares and billionares that quickly.
5 years ago already, black folks had more money than white folks combined. Do you KNOW what the problem is though? A disproportionate population.
Lets compare SUCCESSFUL countries, like BOTSWANA, do you know what their population is? And the average GDP per capita? Now compare that to South Africa.
Its YOUR responsibility to create jobs and employment, not whites. Weve pretty much saturated the market with employment. Its STUPID expecting 10% of the population to provide jobs for 90%.
Its also UNREALISTIC to expect that the government can cater these jobs. MEANWHILE, the businesses being created are USELESS tenderpreneurs, which bring NO WEIGHT into the economy, merely money chowers that dont provide long term employment.
AND YOU KEEP ON BLAMING WHTIES!
OPEN YOUR EYES DUDE! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Tasto
Color is irrelevant if it is my property bought with money from a third party it is my property regardless. Should your claim to ancestral lands be with the third party that sold it to me or with me who unwittingly bought it from the third party? I own two properties bought with my hard earned money, if I find squatters is it my fault the government has failed them and then I must suffer? Why must I work for every scrap I can get and these people just take? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
Not that it happened on my birthday but it(Nationalisation) is still working here in Africa:
On July 26, 1956, Egypt's Gamal Abd el Nasser nationalized the canal in retaliation for the refusal by the United States and Britain to finance construction of the Aswan Dam on the Nile, a project valued at $1.3 billion at the time. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
@tasto
Im not claiming to know anything but before you give us examples you must check your facts, Zim unemployment is the highest in the world and you know very well what hapend with their curency and economy due to natinalisation just a few years back, things are getin beter now because of a new constitution with MDC inngovernment which is against natinalisation Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "Yes whites received a big chunk of land for free,remember Vryheid republic and how it was founded zulus were defeated and their was taken"
LOL dude, you dont know your history. Land was TRADED, local tribes gave land to the voortrekkers for taking care of their niehgbours. Where the AWB dudes want to build their volkstaat is the portion of land that was given to the bo3re there for sorting out enemy tribes.
Dingaan killed the voortrekkers for trading with him, livestock for land. He took the livestock and murdered them. What did you expect? The people to just sit there and take it?
Of course, then the British came, and annexed all of the farms. The colony was ended in 1910. And people had to buy land from the government. Nobody is sitting on any free land dude. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Tasto
Is that canal the linchpin to their entire economy? No? Debate in context please. You are comparing why can the eagle have the mouse if all the mouse want is the cheese. The two are totally different structures. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
Sinudeity_
You got it bro.
For years the debate in the ANC revolved in how to equalise matters by taking from the whites. They have not realised the only way to equalise matters is to grow the economy. Nationalisation is just a continuation of the same.
It does not create more jobs, nor does it stimulate growth.
We need to grow our economy to a Ten Trillion Rand GDP. Can anyone tell me how nationalisation is going to help in that objective. We need a TTR plan. In my view this can only be achieved by having the most favourable investment climate and good schooling and good infrastructure and cheap resources. In all of these the ANC is failing.
Ownership was earned by these farmers by many years of hard work. They fed our nation. They must keep what they earned.
If there was a case of unjust occupation I am sure that no person would object in restoring this to proper position - and that was mostly done.
Can these boys just shut up and go to school or something,everyday nywnywe! Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
sgubhusenkwishi
People have got the worst expectations and fears when it comes to nationalisation, not everything would be nationalised, it would go on phases, like land given back to owners and foreign investers would still have access to rent to use it if interested , bussinessmen are renting bussiness areas anyway. So why worry than ? Only apartheid beneficiaries are worried , who escalate propaganda that investers would run away that is a fallacy. Most of the land under the whites is no longer in use anyway, last week I went around the country to assess a lot hectors of land is lying lazy or hidden as game reserve without even rabbits, we dont need so many game reserve anyway, the land must be farmed to produce food sothat food prices could come down or used for something differrent. Therefore the gvt must invest on young farmers education to put this land to full use. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
@Sinudeity
I like your lecturing although at times you seem to mis point completely
1.black have nnever had more money than whites Jse has always been contrlod by whites
2, about blacks being bilionairs in short time, you must take into considration that apartheid sa was operating in isolation unlike now we are in globalisation is much easier to tise fast than it was then
3.yes botswana is doing well but there is still lot of poverty in Botswana just much like SA, in terms of GDP south africa is far ahead of botswana
4. Y talk about whites as if they are aliens to this country whom we expect to do all things for blacks, the fact is whites enriched themselves in the past at the expense of black people so they are part of this countries problems and its solution and that we are not begging Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@Danielrjvvuren
Tasto
Is that canal the linchpin to their entire economy? No? Debate in context please. You are comparing why can the eagle have the mouse if all the mouse want is the cheese. The two are totally different structures.
Thats exactly what US did to Panama build Canal in Panama and claim it like a squatter that comes and just build a mnsion or is it difficult to understand or colour of the skin makes the difference? Report Abuse
Nyongoyamavenda
@Sinudeity
I like your lecturing although at times you seem to mis point completely
1.black have nnever had more money than whites Jse has always been contrlod by whites
2, about blacks being bilionairs in short time, you must take into considration that apartheid sa was operating in isolation unlike now we are in globalisation is much easier to tise fast than it was then
3.yes botswana is doing well but there is still lot of poverty in Botswana just much like SA, in terms of GDP south africa is far ahead of botswana
4. Y talk about whites as if they are aliens to this country whom we expect to do all things for blacks, the fact is whites enriched themselves in the past at the expense of black people so they are part of this countries problems and its solution and that we are not begging
_______________________________________
100% correct Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Tasto
@ Danielrjvvuren
Tasto
Is that canal the linchpin to their entire economy? No? Debate in context please. You are comparing why can the eagle have the mouse if all the mouse want is the cheese. The two are totally different structures.
I hope you were talking abt Suez canal success story, it is massive to its GDP and it’s a fact.They tried to bully other African countries not to develop the Nile river but what is good for the gender is good for goose I think so – Ethopia built Nile Damn in Ethopia and Egypt objected initially (typical Foreign aggression)!! What you do with your land has nothing to do with outsiders\investors Ethopia showed us!!
@Tasto- sure bru , sinudeity is an AWB speaker in this forum and we accept and respect him for that, but he must tell us facts not lies , we are watching him closely. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
@FarCesPotter
Whites took everything from blacks including dignity so we are not taking from whites all we want is the fair equal distribution. Your hardned attitude is very worrying looking at where we come from it seems as if its Blacks alone on this road of reconciliation,
You are trying to justify that one take a shovel and build a Hartebeespoort dam. It just aint going to happen, no matter how much you try and explain it and make it sound attractive and fair.
You can nationalise as much as you want - poverty will not be addresses. Then rather be honest and say that you want revenge - because that is all you will achieve.
And you must know that the mines and farms and banks are not owned by the "whites". They are owned by pension funds, investment funds, overseas companies etc. So you are just going to upset all investors and in doing so cause such damage that SA will never recover.
Nyongoyamavenda - "black have nnever had more money than whites Jse has always been contrlod by whites"
In South Africa, black folks have more buying power than white folks. Saying you dont have money in the JSE is your own fault. Also, you cant compare 'white folks' to 'black folks' on the JSE, because its investors from ALL OVER THE WORLD investing on the JSE.
Thats like saying, few South Africans have shares in the NASDAQ.
"about blacks being bilionairs in short time, you must take into considration that apartheid sa was operating in isolation unlike now we are in globalisation is much easier to tise fast than it was then"
Right, because we know how Cyril, Tokyo and Motsepe got their initial assets from. Important persons with right connections, allowing them to grab up all the BEE shares on offer for next to nothing.
During Mbeki's tenure, 80% of all tenders went to Cyril and Tokyo. Very convenient.
"yes botswana is doing well but there is still lot of poverty in Botswana just much like SA, in terms of GDP south africa is far ahead of botswana"
GDP per capita, Botswana is ahead of us. In terms of GDP per person, we are 6th in Africa. Thats not good.
"Y talk about whites as if they are aliens to this country whom we expect to do all things for blacks, the fact is whites enriched themselves in the past at the expense of black people so they are part of this countries problems and its solution and that we are not begging"
No, no. Whites were not ADVANTAGED during apartheid. Black folks were DISADVANTAGED. White folks had to take loans from the bank, offer assets as collateral, take the risk and everything else. The difference is, you were not allowed to.
The thing is, you cant handicap people, trying to catch up with them. Im not going to put my education on hold, waiting for you. You should realise, that while you are busy catching up, my taxes etc. are providing for universities, schools, electricity etc.
Now you are trying to screw me, because of apartheid. Even though, Im indirectly helping you. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "Whites took everything from blacks including dignity so we are not taking from whites all we want is the fair equal distribution."
What if I give you half of EVERYTHING I earn every month?
Cool, done deal. Now go speak to the tax man. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
Nyongoyamavenda
No brother - I am not trying to reconcile here. I am trying to find a real solution. reconciliation was attempted by the TRC and other forums.
I wish that we can see that we as a human race is full of flaws and we make mistakes all the time. Look at slavery, killing of aborigines, killing of red indians in usa, extinction of animals, massive oil spills, etc. We make mistakes.
In SA we are trying to find a way of making success for everyone (or at least that is what we should be doing). In my mind we have to grow our economy in order to achieve this. We cannot take the same wealth and distribute it amongst 50 million people and make them wealthy.
And to punish the current generation for what happened in the past is useless. I say we are all living better here in SA than in the rest of Africa - that is what we have achieved no matter how it came about. Now let us make it even better.
sgubhusenkwishi
@Tasto- sure bru , sinudeity is an AWB speaker in this forum and we accept and respect him for that, but he must tell us facts not lies , we are watching him closely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I have yet to meet a AWB with the brains of Sinu. lol. But then perhaps I dont mix in the right circles :)
Nyongoyamavenda - Dont understand how you want us to share our wealth (5 million) with 35 million. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
In my mind the people of SA are the best in the world. We are mostly caring and friendly people, trying to make a honest buck.
Our crimes are not the worst in the world. Look at what the Germans did to the yews (and I am a German). Look at Rwanda. Look at Genghis Kahn. Look at Pol Pot.
We had unfair laws for 50 years or so. And perhaps there was a longer period where whites were dominant in their position of influence. This has been changed for 20 years almost.
We never set out to do mass killings. We never sent millions to gas chambers. There were injustices - but at the same time there was also good - some schooling, hospitals, etc. not equal I agree, but it was never an attempt to totally crush anyone or nation. I thinks many of these were the result of economics - simply no better could be afforded. Report Abuse
You are trying to justify that one take a shovel and build a Hartebeespoort dam. It just aint going to happen, no matter how much you try and explain it and make it sound attractive and fair.
You can nationalise as much as you want - poverty will not be addresses. Then rather be honest and say that you want revenge - because that is all you will achieve.
And you must know that the mines and farms and banks are not owned by the "whites". They are owned by pension funds, investment funds, overseas companies etc. So you are just going to upset all investors and in doing so cause such damage that SA will never recover.
That propaganda you are potraying is very dangerous for this country and it shows resistance of your people in taking party to reconciliation, all the potential and present investors they appreciate the road we have walked in achieving this democracy and they are prepared to work with us to complete this process, they know about the damage caused by the evil system of apartheid to our physical and emotional being , so while they are investing here they are also happy in seeing, the reconciliation process unfolding and the manner in which those who were harmed by that evil system being fairly healed and recompansated. Nobody is talking about taking investors bussissnesses here is all about people asked to comply to restore the human rights and dignity to those who were unfairly treated by the past, is not about revenge.
But I am worried about people of your kind who want to act as if they are ignorent of the past,hence wishes to earn forgiveness and do nothing as well, wishing everyone must just ignore everything about the past, where is your heart mr. be a party of a reconciliation please, nothing more and nothing less, that is not too much to ask.
FarCeSpotter - Im not a friggin AWB dude :P Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "That propaganda you are potraying is very dangerous for this country and it shows resistance of your people in taking party to reconciliation"
Get real dude, its the concern of people who know that the economy will COLLAPSE if we impliment nationalisation. Is Zimbabwe not a clear enough indicator for you?
95% unemployment? Electricity issues for the next 10 years. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - WE DONT need nationalisation to reconcile.
You are pulling the bottom of the pool here to try and guilt us into nationalisation. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
MommaC
sgubhusenkwishi
Propaganda?
You do know that PIC is a major shareholder in Anglo American and that a huge portion of black South African pensions are tied up in those shares? Look it up if you don't believe me. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
Sinudeity_
FarCeSpotter - Im not a friggin AWB dude :P
>>>
I know friend, I know :) hehehe it is strange when you try to argue in the non "mainstream group think stale biased black vs white" you become AWB. I want to see you riding your horse with red and white - and please do the hat thingy too. lol
FarCeSpotter - Hehehe, I'll start singing de la rey :P Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
@Sinudeiy
You r now persnaling things i dnt want your money bt redistribution of the economy is a must job resevation for whites for too long did untold damages to potential blacks
'share our wealth' that is our wealth that we were denied acces for centuries, i wonder what do you want this country to become,my fear is with people like you Julius will rule this and you wil tealize that we are trying to protect you as well but then it wil be too late Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
sgubhusenkwishi
But I am worried about people of your kind who want to act as if they are ignorent of the past,hence wishes to earn forgiveness and do nothing as well, wishing everyone must just ignore everything about the past, where is your heart mr. be a party of a reconciliation please, nothing more and nothing less, that is not too much to ask.
>>>>
You see I have done nothing that I feel ashamed about. If anything I have to feel bad about being German - my father fought as a Nazi. Did he agree with it? No. Did they know about the gas chambers? No. Let me tell you many Germans were controlled by fear.
In the same way there are many whites who did not agree with the apartheid system. But it came about in the same way as the ANC got into power - through an "elected" government. It was wrong. But we still live bette here than in the rest of Africa. Let us make it even better. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
sgubhusenkwishi
@Sinudeity- take it easy man , get on the back of your horse and put Farcespotter on your back riding along the golf coast. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - LOL, now you are using Julius fearmongering :P Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
sgubhusenkwishi
hehehe I dont play golf by the way - but I like the image.
Nyongoyamavenda
In case you have not noticed: there is more poverty in other countries, even those that had no evil whites. India and China being good examples. No dude - poverty exist despite the propaganda that you are punting.
This nationalisation merry-go-round is ridiculous and extremely tiring as the only result will be a drastic increase in the downward slide of our economy and .
There are many reasons, that have already been well documented, why we should all be against this suicidal policy. Modern history is also littered with many fine factual examples that prove these reasons.
So...
Can someone who disagrees with all this evidence then PLEASE explain the unique mechanics of nationalisation in SA? How will the whole process work? Why will it work? Why will it not chase away the small amount of foreign investment we already have? How will it be sustained long-term? ...and finally, the most important question of all...How will the average uneducated, unemployed, shack dweller benefit and his childrens children benefit?
Rational questions I believe? Please, please, please can someone enlighten me and eliminate my very grave concerns - I will be the biggest supporter of nationalisation and promote it 24 hours a day if there was even the tiniest chance that long-term economic upliftment for all South Africans could be guaranteed, achieved and sustained through the process of nationalisation!
Hey man. Julius has many similarities to Hitler. Please beware of that idiot. He will look you in the eyes whilst lying to you and taking your wallet from your back pocket. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
Farc
I begin to realiz that actualy we dnt nid reconciliation it was done just to further betray blacks from not getin their land,what a political shame
Yes human beings always make mitakes one of such is for blacks to belive there is reconciliation, Germans did made horrible mistakes but they have paid billoins of dollars for reparation i think sa must take that route before julius take advantage of the situation
We are not punisjing any1 thats why we hav not taken our land back,wr are just giving those who were deprived oppotunities in the past so as to level the playground Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
16-12-1838
Right with you. It is only in SA where people will follow the uneducated, uninformed and unrealistic. I have not heard a single proven intelligent man agreeing with nationalisation.
Yet thousands will follow a under educated president and a bullying fool that cannot pass woodwork. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
@sinudeity
Call it fearmongerin when it hapen it wil be worse than swaartgevaar Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
sgubhusenkwishi
@ Farcespotter , but that doesnt make your father innocent to those multitudes of the jews who were slaughtered and put to gas chambers by the Nazis, however here in South africa even revenge to those who hurt us is not an issue, we talking cheap approach of reconciliation without even a single drop of a chicken blood, waisted. Why is this too hard comparing to other cases. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - All stolen land has been returned to its rightful owners. I think there is 3 court cases left to resolve the last remaining land cases.
Everything else, is not stolen land. Merely propaganda you have been fed. If you want land, you have to buy it, just like everyone else, then you can call it YOUR land. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "Call it fearmongerin when it hapen it wil be worse than swaartgevaar"
I agree to pay compensation. But then we need to offset it against the billions that was spent on schooling and medical care, etc..
Can you see Hitler building hospitals on the one side for the yews and then sending them to gas chambers a the same time. Can you see how very different us and the Germans are?
No man. It is not about "taking". Believe it or not - many whites did not take anything from the blacks. They earned a lot and yes they were advantaged for many years by unfair laws. But never did they steal anything. It was very unfair and we have to find ways to fix it. The best way to fix it is to uplift people from poverty. I am all for that.
Nyongoyamavenda - I think that people who promote nationalisation probably wouldnt put up much of a fight in a civil war type situation. And ours will be a battle of attrition, and you aint gonna handle well in such a war. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Nyongoyamavenda
@farc
Im hapy you realiz that julius has the potential of bein worse than Hitler,so join us in making this country succesful work wth us not against us Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Dont forget that your politicians (Julius included) are stealing money meant to uplift the poor. To the tune of R30 billion a year (That which we know of). Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Hehe, we are working with you. We are telling you, nationalisation aint gonna work. You owe me a huge favour for that tip. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Oh, and f*** julius. A tannie from boksburg could beat the cr@p out of him. He's a useless tool who's only power lies in the media giving him a microphone. Empty cans make the most noise. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Work with us, not against us, in making South Africa better. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
Nyongoyamavenda
@farc
Im hapy you realiz that julius has the potential of bein worse than Hitler,so join us in making this country succesful work wth us not against us
>>>
I am not motivated by fear or force.
I will join you to make this a successful country because this is my childhood dream.
I will NEVER support JM as he is a grave danger to us. So as long as you support free market fundamentals and sound economic policy I will be by your side. If you want to make a demagogue the president I will fight or leave. Simple really.
One cannot create wealth from taking from others. Wealth is created by effort and benefit.
@sinudeity
Especialy you Sinu not harmd maent i think you are just hapin about whites all the time Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Nah, I dont 'hapin about whites all the time'.
Its the black commentators that focus on the colour of my skin. Thats why instead of arguing logically, they will bring in apartheid, AWB and right-wing. Im immune to that kind of arguing. Report Abuse
@ Sinudeity- mind you we are not Zimbabweans and we think differrent to them as well, however we dont want people to prejudge us and take us for a ride as if we are easy targets. Is not fair for people just to pressurise us with fear of what would happen if we pursue nationalisation, our take to nationalisation wont be the same as those failed states, that is why people should engage it in debates and come up with their fears and get their fears addressed if need be. but we must also bear in mind that it takes two to reconcile, and two parties has to be contributors than miserable recipients all the time. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
FarCeSpotter - Cape Town at the moment, born and raised in Joburg. Urself? Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - But nationalisation/expropriation is not a way of reconciling. Its merely a way of taking and leaving the other person with nothing.
The problem I have with sowetan, and the nationalisation debate, is people not getting their facts/figures straight.
Like people saying, stolen land must be returned, when in fact, 99% of all stolen land has been returned. The rest is just fearmongering or guilt tripping. No logical reasoning behind that. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
FarCeSpotter
Sinu
Apologies for delay - home via traffic
- Joburg
Born and raised in small town in Mpumalanga, but in JHB for last 27 years
Sinudeity_
Like people saying, stolen land must be returned, when in fact, 99% of all stolen land has been returned. The rest is just fearmongering or guilt tripping. No logical reasoning behind that.
i wonder where do you get these figures,or you are literaly lying to yourself but certainly not to us Report Abuse
Only a handful of cases involving white owned property remaining. Report Abuse
Jul 31, 2012
sgubhusenkwishi
Sinudeity - that is baseless, many South Africans havent had their landclaims attended to, you are only interested to the AWB claims nothing else, where is a spirit of reconciliation there. Report Abuse
Aug 1, 2012
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "AWB claims"
Like I said, you will rely on things like 'awb, imperialist, apartheid and right wing' to bull$h17 your way out of facts. Like I said, guilt and fear is how you want to achieve 'reconciliation'.
Im immune to that kind of nonsense, just cold hard facts.
Where do you get your information from? Whos lying to whom here?
2007/8 report ? i dont it is refering to land restitution,its imposible Report Abuse
Aug 1, 2012
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - So, if those reports are from 2007/2008, just think how much progress has been made in 4 years.
The latest one I linked was from 2012, and as it stands, most land claims are regarding government owned property. Most claims regarding land restitution with regards to white owners have been resolved.
I think you have been eating up too much propaganda my friend. The truth and propaganda are two very different entities. Report Abuse
Aug 2, 2012
Botludi
Dream on young man. It might happen someday. It will definitely no be in your lifetime. Report Abuse
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Comments
Tasto
GwedeMantashe\ANC said yesterday that NATIONALISATION is not economical sound option, they propose alternative to strategic minerals whatever they mean by that.Problem is the anc elite are embedded with the capitalists now they have to speak in tongues to satisfy everybody!!Report Abuse
Nkasegobotsesephirise
Wena man Lamola shut up.Report Abuse
Tikoloshe
....Hey wena Isilima, you and your fat boy were warned at the SACP conference at UNIZUL not to start a war because war k.ills!!!!LIfe is cheap in politics mfana wami, ask Wandile Mkhize!!!!
Report Abuse
MommaC
Could someone PLEASE tell the youth league that nobody voted for them and they do NOT run the country?Report Abuse
VENDALIOUS
@Lamola firstly will have to NATIONALISE your mother and her kuku will be expropriated.Report Abuse
DjEp
Lamola save your breath,ANCYL is not a political party and thus no one has/will vote for you! Since the ruling party which goes on the ballot said no nationalisation of mines then get used to it as it will never happen in this lifetime..Report Abuse
CheeseBoy
idiotsReport Abuse
masende
THIS HOBO MUST GO BACK TO ZIM ND TAKE BATH LOOK AT HIM TJERRRRRRRRRRRRR HAMBOGEZA SANReport Abuse
Mgaraji
They are clinging to nationalisation & land grab call like monkeys clinging on the falling branch, knowing that without the two rejected proposal they got nothing else to say. Throught intimidation & hurling insults these cowards completely run out of ideas.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Based on the incorrect facts that Ronald is spewing Im guessing he didnt do his homework. Eish, fools love to shoot their mouthes off.Report Abuse
spatch
malemas G for woodwork has been ecliped the anc's H for economics.Sooner rather than later the economy collapses and it's back to the mud hut for some decades of starvation and related illnesses.
It's the african way, there is no escape, except for the few thousands.....mostly politicians..... who have managed to loot enough from the trough.
Report Abuse
Doculam
Lamola, you are like a fly in the room: Not dangerous but irritating, and easy to squash if necessary.Report Abuse
Tasto
Lamola I fear that what one reds here get the feeling that the racist right wingers& belligerent tribalist are rejoicing even some media houses are claiming that Nationalisation debate is finished!!Report Abuse
MicaParis
How many times do we have to tell this children that we cannot be able to Nationalise Private assets. There are four main core factors that will make us never to Nationalise until they are all meet which are Illiteracy, Lack of Skills, Corruption, Lack of Funding and Lack of Legal Platform to nationalise. Pity if you are legally and economically illiterate like Lamola and Malema you will never understand what we are talking about.Report Abuse
Thebuster
VENDALIOUS
@Lamola firstly will have to NATIONALISE your mother and her kuku will be expropriated.
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How dare yu, insult his mom over a politics,I think yu shld 1st learn how politics work b4 yu utter dis hogwash yu've no repct. I wonder who ur parents are.yu're pathetic to say de least.
As for the other critics,get to knw the bad and the good of al dis issues b4 yu critisize.how much did the whites pay 4 de land that they own?
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Toivo
It's sad that when a young man is putting views up there and challenging for ideas to be debated, the bloggers here decide to throw insults and use vulagar as well as violent threats. To use the sad incident where Wandile Mkhize was killed, to threaten people is just not on and should be trashed by every sound minded person.Use this space to share ideas, especially on a subject of national importance like this one.
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Sinudeity_
Toivo - "Use this space to share ideas, especially on a subject of national importance like this one."Nationalisation is a failure. It will NEVER work.
Botswana runs an equal partnership with the mining company and the state. South Africa receives MORE income from tax revenue, than the equal partnership mines in Botswana does.
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malemaforpresident
Viva Comrade Lamola Viva ba ya tshaba makwala ba ya nyeela we getting closer we are going to Nationalise the minirals of this country and expropriate land without compesating thieeves mooeer these people stole our land the first target should be Anglo American platinum and Anglo gold these people are stealing the wealth of our countryReport Abuse
RobinH
You are a complete numbskull, Mr Lamola. Worse than a stuck record - with bad scratches. Can't read and don't listen. The way to get ahead.Report Abuse
Selab
Mantashe is problem is that he is one of the directors of the mines such as Silicon Smelters pty ltd in polokwane. That is why he hardened his head.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Toivo - Meanwhile, the ANCYL, who had millions stolen from its investment firm, is now looking for new sources of income. The government and its trillion rand budget, and its annual corruption of R30 billion (That we know of), is looking for more ways to access money in South Africa.According to the government, all stolen land claims have been resolved, bar 3 cases which is underway. Hence, the 'stolen land' argument is no longer valid.
People who have been displaced from their land because of legalised theft during apartheid, have been compensated, or had their land returned to them.
Meanwhile, ANC just made another dodgy business deal with hitachi. I just wonder why the billions that the ANC makes from its investments, are not used to buy mines or businesses?
Where does all that money go to?
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LijahaSisu
MicaParisPity if you are legally and economically illiterate like Lamola and Malema you will never understand what we are talking about.
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For the record Madam, Cde Ozzy is an admitted attorney of the High Court of South Africa, so the words legally illiterate just proves your ignorance.
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Sinudeity_
malemaforpresident - LOL, shouting 'we are getting closer' doesnt mean you are getting closer :PReport Abuse
Tasto
@SelabMantashe is problem is that he is one of the directors of the mines such as Silicon Smelters pty ltd in polokwane. That is why he hardened his head.
Called "embedded communist" with capitalist what a mix comrade
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Chichi7
Youth league needs to finally realise that they are not running the country and should shut up.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
LijahaSisu - So he's a laywer, not an economist?Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Chichi7 - Indeed, like i said yesterday, people vote for the ANC. But they didnt vote for SACP/COSATU/ANCYL.Those 3 entities have no say in what goes on in the country.
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Toivo
Sinudeity - Your position or understanding of the SA land reform status is not correct but I won't waste time to update you because you seem to be already committed to it. I say this because you have manufactured your supposedly facts and it is a well known fact that the land reform process is far from over. My position is that land should be given to deserving people who will make meaningful use of it.On nationalization you seem to conclude (I don't know based on what) that I'm in favour of it. To me the ANCYL should come up with detailed proposals on how this should happen, then I'll make an informed opinion. Lastly, it's a fact that the current SA situation on these two issues cannot be just left as it is, because that's just not sustainable.
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MorenaWaPolelo
This boy honestly refuses to understand that strategic minerals not mines would be looked at so that the country can benefit from prescious resources. If you are able to construct a meaning-ful sentence and understand it, which means atlist educated enough you will see that this is not nationalisation.This is basicly a way of saying lets confuse these idiots in the Youth League and deal with them one by one. Ronaldino Lamola must just tell us how will the strategising be implemented will it be in line with the constitution???? Jah gone are the days when the YL made sense out of a conferense they put together, now we have unrepentant cretins running the show or should I say circus!!!!!! Lamola my chief you still have a chance get education and read a bit on economic especialy local econonmics at list once a day comrade, and you will see like Pule who realised your pie in the sky and pigs would fly policies are mentaly retarded!!!!!Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Toivo - "Your position or understanding of the SA land reform status is not correct but I won't waste time to update you because you seem to be already committed to it."Sounds like a copout to me :P
"say this because you have manufactured your supposedly facts and it is a well known fact that the land reform process is far from over"
My stats are straight from the government dude. We've discussed this, and linked facts ad nausium. Pity you dont want to accept the truth dude.
"To me the ANCYL should come up with detailed proposals on how this should happen, then I'll make an informed opinion. Lastly, it's a fact that the current SA situation on these two issues cannot be just left as it is, because that's just not sustainable."
LOL, the current situation in SA isnt sustainable. Pity that the pillars to correct it are being torn down by your party. Education and good governance.
I'll say again, there is no working policy for nationalisation. The ANCYL cant make up policies, they dont have the brains or the skills for it.
The kiddies should go play outside, and let the adults discuss things.
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cocolucho
Grow up youth league, grow up!Report Abuse
MorenaWaPolelo
ToivoYou are making sense my brother but do you think that the YL can even draft a proposal on this issue when all they do is being obsesed with power?? They know we wll never nationalise because this requered at list 3 trillion rands which the country does not have. How can a country raise 3 trilion just to buy out all mining entities is very stupid to even think that. The land issue is a very serious one and it has a potential of land graps which are getting eminent every day, the latargic prorammes they have are not working a decisive decision must be taken urgently.
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Sinudeity_
MorenaWaPolelo - On top of that, the government has been issuing mining licenses to foreign countries. Australia is a big foreign miner in South Africa.Report Abuse
Tasto
President’s son is worth billions of rands all of a sudden nationalisation is not a viable option maar it has been the cornerstone of the FreedomCharter and everyone has been comfortable with it during the dark days.Perhaps these co-option of the few by the capitalist makes them to think they can think for the masses.KZN-MK veterans said it in public\tv who ever opposes Zuma is gonna meet violence becuase they come from the province with another kind of violence I don’t know abt murder of mkize maar apartheid security is no more perhaps 3rd-force still around & who support it now ?.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Tasto - Err, no. Zuma's son was IN FAVOUR of nationalisation, because he couldnt operate his mine. His workers went unpaid for over a year.He wanted his mine nationalised, so that he state could buy his mine back from him.
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MorenaWaPolelo
TastoPresident’s son is worth billions of rands all of a sudden nationalisation is not a viable option maar it has been the cornerstone of the FreedomCharter and everyone has been comfortable with it during the dark days.
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With due respect that Charter is not a blble or the koran it can be subjected to chnages like any other policy document, Freedom was a coner stone not this nationalisation bullsh1t the small boys are talking about.
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Tasto
On MetroFM talkshow I listened to ZKodwa saying that in Mangaung there will be no leadership change because it’s not good for the country to change in the first five-year leadership. I was left dumbfounded by such diatribe nonsense! Desperate times call for desperate measures\lies!!If not fit to govern you must go period, gonna get recalled – Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still!!Report Abuse
MorenaWaPolelo
TastoZuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still
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Do you honestly believe your self?
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Sinudeity_
MorenaWaPolelo - On top of that quite a few of the points listed in the freedom charter, are ignored and regularly broken by the ANCYL:There shall be equal status in the bodies of the state, in the courts and in the schools for all national groups and races;
All people shall have equal right to use their own languages and to develop their own folk culture and customs;
All national groups shall be protected by law against insults to their race and national pride;
Meanwhile, the YL kiddies are regularly spewing insults at white folks.
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Tasto
@MorenaWaPoleloTasto
Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still
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Do you honestly believe your self?
Put any possible skullduggery@Manguang aside,I beleive in myself !!
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MorenaWaPolelo
Sinudeity - I get your point but Er.. Khulubuse is not Zuma's son that BIG GUY is the niece Sir!!!Report Abuse
Tasto
@MorenaWaPolelo & lyour little whitye rightwingers rejoice, the same ancyl gonna expect it to campaign for you for 2014!! Can't wait for 2014 !!Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
MorenaWaPolelo - Yeah, ur right. His nephew.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Tasto - "MorenaWaPolelo & lyour little whitye rightwingers rejoice"F*** off man.
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Sinudeity_
Tasto - You little left-winger wetnoses are doing more damage to the country as the days go by.Report Abuse
Tasto
@Sinudeity_ - don't have time to teach little whiteys who know me more than I know myself black politics here fcuk-off!!Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Tasto - You know very little dude, thats the problem.Report Abuse
Tasto
@Sinudeity_ - exposing yr patronage of blacks or can't keep up counting number of JZ' kids get easily confused ?Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Tasto - Yeah, I cant keep track of all the Zuma b@stards.Report Abuse
SOLAtiShower.antiZUUm
VENDALIOUS@Lamola firstly will have to NATIONALISE your mother and her kuku will be expropriated.
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I don't think you belong here in SA, Lamola is raising democratic views representing members of the ANCYL, therefore you have No right to put such a bad atterances which are very insulting and disrepectfull to his family as your comment. If you have nothing to say or comment on you must jst Shut Up!!! I hope your not a parent of somebody cos such a child will be raised by an immoral stupit parent.
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Mbedzhana
Mr Lamola is militant than J MalemaReport Abuse
Tasto
Twelvemonths ago this is what he said&everybody is running scared trying to appease everybody.http://mg.co.za/multimedia/2011-06-21-the-10-sayings-of-president-malema/medium
PS - He said you can must put in archives he will lead the anc!!
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STOPA
you did not win anything papa; those are future plans of our movement and is just that domkops like you and your allies are jajarag.Report Abuse
OLDLADY4
Uh, I I nowhere near as well educated as most people here, but I have a few questions. Why are we even fighting the land issue amongst ourselves as SAns? See, I look at it this way. European countries (their kings and queens) sent ships to Africa and claimed the land. They then sold the land to white people from their countries, many times under false pretences, such as making people believe that there were no people living on the land here. The white.s who now own the farms, had nothing to do with those days gone by. Now, shouldn't we be holding these COUNTRIES responsible for the predicament SA is currently in? I've asked many times that should the land be taken now, for the poor, who is going to build them a house, give them access to water, electricity etc, etc. What if we as SAns can start some international court case holding these countries responsible for their actions back then, and make them pay for the betterment of the poor in SA? Any legal points on this thought?Report Abuse
1tsotsi
We have said it before, and we going to say it again... Nationalisation is going ahead, President Malema was not in London as a coinsidence, But to let those British understand what he means not what its being said by the Media.. The only thing that left is for a correct model to be put into Place, many young Proffesionals are getting ready to be Part of this Revolution where, all people will share whats underneath our soil,Report Abuse
mathopeed
Who is this OWL?Report Abuse
Lord-Have-Mercy
>>>>>>>>>>malemaforpresident is Comic ALIit seems as if you are walking in a forest but seeing no trees!!
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Tasto
Comrades lets not lose focus and leave those who speak in tongues alone and focus on reality!!@OLDLADY4 - Berlin Conference of 1884-85, Europeans saw it fit among themselves to rape Africa of its resources and dissposes Africans its land and this mentality is still prevalent even in this blogg!!
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STOPA
@1tsotsiWe have said it before, and we going to say it again... Nationalisation is going ahead, President Malema was not in London as a coinsidence, But to let those British understand what he means not what its being said by the Media.. The only thing that left is for a correct model to be put into Place, many young Proffesionals are getting ready to be Part of this Revolution where, all people will share whats underneath our soil
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slow learner, you mind is young and not ready for what you are trying to highlite
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RobinH
Tasto, You are one serious racist SOB. The time for that sh!t is long gone. Try constructive interaction, if you are able.Report Abuse
1tsotsi
VENDALIOUS@Lamola firstly will have to NATIONALISE your mother and her kuku will be expropriated.
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I just hope that if you have Kids, they grow up to be better persons than you are, M sure you were born Talking.......... You such a first class Clown whos seeking attention as if you dont have a family.
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Tasto
So called of treaty Europeans @Vereneeging, decided to exclude native of this land from its resources and affiars and disposse the land in 1913, now we are being expected to beg for this land.Mugabe waited for 20years for the Lancaster agreement before he decided towent it alone, now whiteys ask yourselves "why does your Queen not re-invade Zimbabwe".England knows it well they can't be seen dablling in double-standards!!
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Tasto
The was Berlin_Conference in 1884-1885,Vereneeging treaty in 1909 and this have direct bearing in the current situation of this country.Problem is just whites like not to own up!Report Abuse
Tasto
The other thing Rhodes, the Oppenheimers were not entrepreneurs as we are made to believe but were sent here by European capitalists familys\conglemerates to capitalise\tenderpreneure on the outcome of the BerlinConference and other Imperialist skims!Report Abuse
1tsotsi
STOPA@1tsotsi
We have said it before, and we going to say it again... Nationalisation is going ahead, President Malema was not in London as a coinsidence, But to let those British understand what he means not what its being said by the Media.. The only thing that left is for a correct model to be put into Place, many young Proffesionals are getting ready to be Part of this Revolution where, all people will share whats underneath our soil
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slow learner, you mind is young and not ready for what you are trying to highlite
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Is that the best you can say? Wow!!! Indeed theres no price for Stupidity.
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OLDLADY4
Tasto, see, you are giving strength to my argument. If what you say is true, and the rape of African land was agreed upon in Europe, and the Oppenheimers etc were sent here by European capatalist families and all the other stuff, why hold a few farmers and mine owners responsible? Hold EUROPE responsible. Does that not make more sense?Report Abuse
Toivo
@Sinudeity - If you think owning a shack means having land reform resolved then you're dreaming. You can even go check the good farming land and you'll realize we have too MANY African farmers that own a fraction of good farming land that's owned by their FEW white counterparts. Surely this must tell you that this equation is not right and I promise you it's not sustainable. I was asking a white colleague "Mr Lategan" who happens to own a farm what his views are. He said he is selling a portion of his farm to a cousin who is a "Makgoba". This must tell you we have issues and the white farmers are aware of it, hence they're trying to evade a proper redress process by doing what I've just mentioned above.Report Abuse
David-
TastoDoes land legal purchased after 1994 still count as stolen land?
Also there are a instances where white settlers were gifted land by the local chief in exchange for assistance that they provided to him, usually in sorting out troublesome neighbors.
As for whole scale nationalization it wont work, the implications for our country would be to severe and I am not talking about the mine, land or bank owners. In our economy everything is connected and nationalization would create a ripple effect through the entire economy
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Sinudeity_
Toivo - You dont even realise that the government owns the majority of land in South Africa :PReport Abuse
David-
ToivoYou need to balance your statement above with our need for food security, taking a massive commercial farm and breaking it into small plots so that every one gets a piece is not viable.
Also you need to ensure that people getting the land have the necessary skills and capital in order to properly utilize it. Farming today is a science it is no longer a case of just chucking some seeds in the ground and waiting to see what comes up.
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Mgaraji
TastoOn MetroFM talkshow I listened to ZKodwa saying that in Mangaung there will be no leadership change because it’s not good for the country to change in the first five-year leadership. I was left dumbfounded by such diatribe nonsense! Desperate times call for desperate measures\lies!!If not fit to govern you must go period, gonna get recalled – Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still!!
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Comrade be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. Comrade Zizi did not say there will be no leadership change in Mangaung. Lies lies and more lies.
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sgubhusenkwishi
Nationalisation of minerals and expropriation of land is politically correct to undo the wrongs that the greedy imperialists did to africa and africans, however one should not be ignorent of how part and the correct timing to do it , which is a cause of concern to many that exagerate fears to us(african) as beneficiaries and create conflict of interests that still divide us and give a chance to capitalists opportunists to exploit our weaknesses on the same way as colonialists to abuse this window to cling on this and enhence their self enrichment on our asserts.The whole issue and question we have on this, is to get a way forward, is all about trust and conducive environment to do it and right timing .Zimbambwe has done it and proved to be a failure hence is used to justify the african weakness on this that is further used against us (africans) to further victimise the already victims whilst benefitting the thiefs.
Solution is, we have to do our home work properly before we can agree to embark on this policy.
The problem that we have as our measure enemy is corruption, that impede and block people access to their asserts and resources. We have got resources at present that are not equally distributed to benefit all south africans. The govt of a day becomes the enemy no. one of its citizens, as current govt officials are benefitting themselves to national resources , hence creating a dreadful economical gab between the nation of have and have nots.
The resources we have, they dont belong to the govtning party but the nation. If the govt can afford equal distribution and proper regulation of resources, improve human resources and skills without prejudices, for south africa as a nation not a political party, invest on agricultural and engeneering skills and education . That environment would be conducive enough for us as nation to have trust to pursue this policy to manage our own land and mineral resources for our own benefit as a nation, whilst cutting off the foreign domination over our asserts by imperialists.
This shouldnot sound as illussion , if the middle east is capable to manage the fuel asserts for their national benefits, why not us? The theory that we are failures or we will fail to do this should not get our approval, however we should aggressively and objectivelly work on obstacles on our way to gain national trust and get on with what is right for us as a nation, regardless of political affilliation. I am a bonafide IFP supporter but I share the same belief with the anc people on this however I beleive on a differrent approach to this, and believing that the success to this policy would take the conviction of our nation based on trust demonstration than theory and active elimination of corruption.
Anglo Americans pty should be curbed to the status of employees not employers to give us rightful role to our resources as owners than the way round.
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Mgaraji
Sinudeity_Toivo - You dont even realise that the government owns the majority of land in South Africa :P
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Yes government owns majority of land and the figure is inflated by rivers, mountains, uninhabitable land, infertile land etc. Fertile and habitable land is in the hands of minority.
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Winilen
These ppl are stup!d & foolish yerrrr... we cannot afford to nationalise the mines we dont have skills 1st of all & corruption is worse look at goverment dpts, they must sort that out 1st nx!Looks like these ppl dnt have anything else they can use to fight Zuma
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Mlaaaaaackza
Are people from Mpotshotsho location in Port St Johns *****I wonder you know the place)****** going to benefit from the nationalization of mines.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Mgaraji - The white people made the land fertile. Look at Swaziland, Lesotho... extremely fertile land. Whats it busy doing?Nothing.
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Sinudeity_
Mgaraji - In fact, if it wasnt for the mining companies, you wouldnt have unearthed the minerals anyways.Report Abuse
Ntumbane
Nationalisation and Expropriation sounds fine on paper but its practically impossible to implement in reality.The ANCYL knows this as well but they wouldn`t say.Only a few stands to gain out of millions and millions of poor citizens of this country. Nationalisation didn`t work in Zambia.Zambia is only producing about 30% of copper as compared to 90% in the ealry 80s.Our neighbour Zimbabwe couldn`t handle expropriation correctly the end result South africa`s social and health expenditure skyrocketed to 200% because the citizens of Zimbabwe are now benefiting from social grants and health services and this is putting much strain on our economy because their President made the same mistake Mr. Lamola is promoting in this country. I am afraid a lot of young South Africans will suffer due to shallow minds of some ANCYL members who are only pushing this agenda for their benefit. Look at this boy Lamola, Lets be honest Do you see a potential leader in him?This boy is hungry for wealth. Once he officially occupies that Youth league president seat, heads will roll.Same as his predecessor Juju.What good did he do for the youth except attending VIP gatherings?To hell with thieves like Lamola and his comrades.The economy is doing just fine as it is.I have heard a lot of middle aged people saying they were better off during Apartheid than under the ANC.
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OLDLADY4
Sgubhusenkwishi, in my opinion you are 100% correct. It should all be happening, but the main enemy is corruption. I think that's why so many people are against it. They know it cannot work while we have corrupt politicians in charge. The question now is... how to get rid of them. Our government officials are simply not held responsible for their corrupt activities, and are even protected by presidency, so it seems like a lost battle. Only a complete change in government, and then at least a 15 year period for the new government to prove themselves, can make land grabs and nationalisation a serious topic of discussion again. Until then, it will just be a shift of power of the colour of the few beneficiaries, with no benefit to the poor.Report Abuse
FrantzFanon.Lives
Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Platinum, Copper, Gold, Coal, Chrome, Gas, Diamond,Magnesium,Lead,Vanadium, Vermiculite, Zirconium, Aluminium, and Titanium
are all key strategic minerals. We need to Nationalise all of them
Then we go to all six banks including African Bank, Teba bank, Postbank, DBSA and everything else that uses the name bank...we nationalise it
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Sinudeity_
FrantzFanon.Lives - How about starting your own banks/mines rather?Report Abuse
OLDLADY4
FrantzFanon.Lives, to which political family do you belong?Report Abuse
FrantzFanon.Lives
OLDLADYAny relevance to the subject of Nationalising Mines?
Please offer your own solutions and not ask where i belong.
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sgubhusenkwishi
I am against people who always say things cannot happen, that is not a right attitude or leadership on issues, But the right thing is we must hilight the arears of our concerns , propose solutions how do we deal with those things that are causes of our setbacks and get on with a job.Negative attitude sometimes imprison people to infinite victimology whislt giving approvals to their abusers to legally abuse them as disabled thinkers.
Of course there is an issue of unpatriotic capitalist opportunists from within us who will always make loud noice for their end benefits, thus we need strict regulations against such rogue members. We cannt afford to have unqualified opportunist miners like Khulubuse Zuma , who emerge from nowhere than family ties to exploit our nation for their selfish interests.
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Sinudeity_
Dudes in favour of nationalisation, JUST DONT GET economics, employment, taxes etc.You dont benefit the country at all if you merely overtake an existing mine. Thats just stupid thinking that suddenly taking over mines will create more jobs. You wount create anymore jobs, you will most probably lose jobs.
What is needed is to CREATE jobs, CREATE NEW mining companies. South Africa needs to MOVE AWAY from being a producer of raw materials to REFINING raw materials and then PRODUCING finished products from the REFINED materials.
Stop behaving stupid dudes.
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Toivo
@Sinudeity - It is tendencies like yours that make the dispossessed or landless people of our country see no reason in engaging in a meaninful debate, for what they believe is theirs and was taken from them through violent means. The arrogance you display around the land issue shall be zipped - the current situation cannot be sustained.@David - my position is that black & white people who will make meaningful use of the land should be afforded that opportunity and if they are making meaningful use of the land they will be able to respond to the food security needs. At the moment the good farming land is in the white minority hands.
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Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "Of course there is an issue of unpatriotic capitalist opportunists from within us who will always make loud noice for their end benefits"Lazy, socialists who just want to sit at home, do nothing, but get paid grants for it, should die off slowly, and stop having kids. Easy as that.
Just because you have fokol ambition, doesnt mean that YOU should drag ALL of us down to your level.
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Sinudeity_
Toivo - "It is tendencies like yours that make the dispossessed or landless people of our country see no reason in engaging in a meaninful debate"
What meaningful debate? All the facts are presented to you. You are told that it will be detrimental to the rest of the country, and you. But you dont f***ing listen, You just keep on screaming your bull$h17.
"The arrogance you display around the land issue shall be zipped - the current situation cannot be sustained."
The IGNORANCE you display around the land issue has to be zipped and cannot be sustained.
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Sinudeity_
Toivo - "...making meaningful use of the land they will be able to respond to the food security needs. At the moment the good farming land is in the white minority hands."Yeah, the minority are making meaningful contributions to the country via the land. Meanwhile, 99% of the farms that have been handed over to bl@ck owners have FAILED. They are no longer fertile. Meanwhile, the minority are producing food and products that you ungratefully eat up, while shouting nonsense with your mouth full of food grown by white farmers.
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Tasto
@OLDLADY4Tasto, see, you are giving strength to my argument. If what you say is true, and the rape of African land was agreed upon in Europe, and the Oppenheimers etc were sent here by European capatalist families and all the other stuff, why hold a few farmers and mine owners responsible? Hold EUROPE responsible. Does that not make more sense?
SteveBiko once said you can't be expected to hate the whip and love the man who wileds it !!
@Mgaraji
Tasto
On MetroFM talkshow I listened to ZKodwa saying that in Mangaung there will be no leadership change because it’s not good for the country to change in the first five-year leadership. I was left dumbfounded by such diatribe nonsense! Desperate times call for desperate measures\lies!!If not fit to govern you must go period, gonna get recalled – Zuma is going it’s a fact he could have tried to push NkosazanaZuma to AU to eliminate her from the race in Mangaung maar we all knew that he is going still!!
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Comrade be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. Comrade Zizi did not say there will be no leadership change in Mangaung. Lies lies and more lies.
I was busy watching Olympics and one of my friends yrged me to listen to Sakina's show and what a sham he was trying as presidential spindoctor avoiding question or found wanting most of the time, yes I did listen carefully and felt rotten inside afterwards !
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SHEMAN
Lamola you look too Illiterate...How can you carry the plans of Malema? He's fallen...He was a dump ass,and now you still feel like going on with where he left off !!!"You got to feel like a man" Boy..
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OFFLIMITS
All those in favour of NATIONALISATION:I'm a bit in the dark about the issue and would like to find out how it would help us, i.e, S.A people.
Which are the three known and prominent SOUTH AFRICAN companies that are involved with coverting these raw minerals that we have into consumable goods with the same, if not, even better efficiency currently being practiced by foreign companies?
Which SOUTH AFRICAN companies have designed the necessary mechinery for handling these the process of converting these raw minerals we have into consumable goods?
Is the any data to suggest that these SOUTH AFRICAN companies (if there are any) can take up the challenge without letting our economy take a dip?
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Tasto
@OFFLIMITS - try to follow the Euro-crisis, funny enuf some goverments tirned to NATIONALISATION of the banks to stabilise their economies in fron of IMF&WolrdBank noone said a word !! Do you get my drift?Just whites like to think for us as if we are stupid, if nationalisation is being persuade in Europe right now whats wrong here in SA?
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Toivo
@Sinudeity - Do you know you can debate issues without throwing insults at others? Do you know you don't have monopoly on insults? Please grow up and when you're tired of egaging on this topic, you may just stop commenting.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Toivo - Im merely reciprocating. If you dont want me to return insults, then dont throw them.Report Abuse
OLDLADY4
FrantFanon.Lives...relevance to nationalisation....sure. With our corrupt government only their cadres will benefit from nationalisation, not the poor. So....which political family do you belong to? As to my contribution, I've made my suggestions further up in the post already. Feel free to read them....or not.Tasto, you quote a wise man nicely, but you still do not answer my question. Maybe I should say.... why hold ONLY a few responsible, why not hold them ALL responsible?
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Tokolosh
ANC Youth League deputy president Ronald Lamola What is his education? Just a grade 12? It is time that educated people start running the ANC and ANCYL else we just sit and get nothing but rubbish talk and corruption!Report Abuse
OLDLADY4
Tasto, what's wrong here in SA? Simple. Corruption. Sort that out, and the problem goes away.Report Abuse
Oshmax
This is what you get when an education system is destroyed, stupid ideas by uninformed people whose idea of progress is to destroy what's there.Report Abuse
Toivo
@Sinudeity - I never threw any insults but you are the one who just decided to throw them at me. There is not a single blogger that I ever threw insults at and in fact my first blog on this topic I persuaded the bloggers to debate the issues.Report Abuse
Tokolosh
It is time that educated people start running the ANC and ANCYL!!!Report Abuse
OFFLIMITS
TastoWhere these governmets' economy dependant more or less around the same GDP as ours?
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Tasto
@OLDLADY4Tasto, what's wrong here in SA? Simple. Corruption. Sort that out, and the problem goes away.
Where have you been, I have been called a bigot manytimes when posting the truth which normaly sits uncomfortbale with whiiteys on this site bloggin here!!
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Kekgethegile
TokoloshIt is time that educated people start running the ANC and ANCYL!!!
_____________________________________________
They will be recalled(lol)
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Sinudeity_
Toivo - You did insult me, even though you might not realise your "tendencies".Report Abuse
Tasto
@OFFLIMITSTasto
Where these governmets' economy dependant more or less around the same GDP as ours?
My understanding the capitalist system works the same in developed and underdeveloped countries, remember many times it has been said that the NationalCreditAct that came during TMbeki administration had a cushion effect from this Euro-crisis.They are trying to drag us into, can you imagine developing country like ours taking R20billion to park @IMF to help these gluttoneous Europeans
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Sinudeity_
Tasto - But you have no problem borrowing money from the IMF?Report Abuse
Tasto
@Sinudeity_Tasto - But you have no problem borrowing money from the IMF?
Fcuk you, we are talking Nationalisation here don't delibaratley sway discussion jou moer!!
@OFFLIMITS - Even your WorldPowerhouse is knee-deep and they want to blame the black president there - Merril Lynch disguised as acquisition by BankofAmerica &Bear Stearns disguised as acquisition by JpMorgan in US
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Sinudeity_
Tasto - Do you know what was the downfall of Greece?Corruption and greed. The unions wanted more money for its workers than what the government could afford. Then followed the housing boom and bust.
Now the average dude in Greece has to take a knock in salary, but he doesnt want to do that.
Hopefully the government and the unions can take a lesson out of this. Alas, they wount.
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Sinudeity_
Tasto - "Fcuk you, we are talking Nationalisation here don't delibaratley sway discussion jou moer!! "LOL, but you brought up the IMF dumbF***.
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David-
What is with this wanting to nationalise the banks?At the first hint that this is going to happen everyone will rush to withdraw their money (I know I will), Shares will be sold off in a panic with the result been a massive crash
Tasto
The number of commercial farmers has actually been declining which has resulted in us having to import more food and also most of the remaining farmers do make meaningful use of their land as it is their only source of income and they have ploughed millions into making it work.
I doubt wether most of us will care if the farmer is black or white as long as we get the food.
You also need to take into account that many farms are know been bought and run by corporations not individual farmers
Futuregrowth Asset Management, a unit of insurer Old Mutual Plc (OML) that oversees 110 billion rand ($13.3 billion) in fixed income investments, is buying farms in Africa to benefit from surging food prices.
Futuregrowth’s United Farmers’ Fund has spent 450 million rand buying nine fruit and vegetable farms in South Africa since December 2010. It’s now considering investing in a cattle ranch in Botswana, a coffee plantation in Ethiopia and fruit and vegetable farms in Burkina Faso, Morocco and Senegal, according to Duncan Vink, one of the fund’s founders and managing directors.
http://www.farmingportal.co.za/component/k2/item/1786-old-mutual’s-futuregrowth-buys-farms-as-food-prices-rise-in-south-africa
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Sinudeity_
Tasto - "Even your WorldPowerhouse is knee-deep and they want to blame the black president there - Merril Lynch disguised as acquisition by BankofAmerica &Bear Stearns disguised as acquisition by JpMorgan in US"Fcuk you, we are talking Nationalisation here don't delibaratley sway discussion jou moer!! :P
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Toivo
@Sinudeity - I suggest you go check the word "tendency" on a dictionary. There is just nothing insulting about that word. One wonders why on the other hand you think I might not realize. I insist I never insulted you and you did insult me.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Toivo - You could also check the word 'bab00n', and there is nothing wrong with it as according to the dictionary, but when used in the wrong context...Report Abuse
OLDLADY4
Tasto, dude, I'm trying to find solutions here with you for the nationalisation problem, but you just name-calling doesn't help. Gluttoneous Europeans??? Sure. But our problem, here, in Africa, is gluttoneous Africans. How do you propose we get rid of them to make nationalisation work? Surely you are not saying nationalisation can work while we have these fat cat politicians and their families benefiting from every deal?Report Abuse
David-
If you want a farm go herehttp://www.farm-sa.co.za/index.html
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Toivo
Sinudeity - Enjoy the rest of the day!Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Toivo - You too!Report Abuse
Tasto
@Sinudeity_Tasto - Do you know what was the downfall of Greece?
Corruption and greed. The unions wanted more money for its workers than what the government could afford. Then followed the housing boom and bust.
Now the average dude in Greece has to take a knock in salary, but he doesnt want to do that.
Hopefully the government and the unions can take a lesson out of this. Alas, they wount.
No, shame damn poor workers !!
While at it my laanie fill me in abt Spain, US&Italy also what caused them to fcuk up their economies!!
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Tasto
@OLDLADY4Tasto, dude, I'm trying to find solutions here with you for the nationalisation problem, but you just name-calling doesn't help. Gluttoneous Europeans??? Sure. But our problem, here, in Africa, is gluttoneous Africans. How do you propose we get rid of them to make nationalisation work? Surely you are not saying nationalisation can work while we have these fat cat politicians and their families benefiting from every deal?
I came across a book @CNA how abt $500 billion of land in Africa is being leased by corrupt politicaians\individual for the benefit of the West,Kenya and Uganda they have the problem of hi-food prices of their local produce that is destined for Europe why ?
TMbeki is working with others on mssion to return the stolen wealth back to Africa for delopment purposes, in region of Trillion$ .
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Winilen
"nationalisation will not happen anytime soon"...too much is at stakeReport Abuse
Tasto
@Winilen"nationalisation will not happen anytime soon"...too much is at stake
Very rrefreshing and brutally honest, the embedded communist&anc elite will stand to loose much indeed !!
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OLDLADY4
Tasto, but firstly, for the theft to work, they needed a corrupt politician in Africa. Now what's the bet, no matter how much Mbeki gets returned, nothing will happen to the corrupt politicians. You can blame Europe all you want, and they are to blame for a lot, but it is time you also start looking at your own house. As long as your own house is dirty, you do sound like a bigot when you complain about your neighbour's house.Report Abuse
Tasto
@OLDLADY4 - what is this nationalisation problem? Where has this happened, Spain has just nationalised one of its biggest bank and no problem so far ?Report Abuse
David-
Tou also need to look east as they are also buying up large tracts of land in africa in order to secure food for their countriesReport Abuse
Sinudeity_
Tasto:Spain - Huge trade deficit (10% of countries GDP during start of recession). Property bubble, its higher than neighbour inflation rate. 35% unemployment rate and public debt.
US: Property bubble, and mortage backed securities.
Italy: Quite stable during worldwide recession, but decrease in the country's industrial production and exports.
Anything else you wanna know? I can bet you Ronald didnt know this stuff.
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Tasto
@OLDLADY4 - I lament the fact that we have crook as apresident of the country & politically connceted terminally ill ghosts all over the golf courses !!Why nationalisation won't work in SouthAfrica?
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Sinudeity_
Tasto - You know that china is now in a recession as well right?Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Tasto - Nationalisation doesnt work ANYWHERE.Report Abuse
Tasto
@Sinudeity_Tasto:
Spain - Huge trade deficit (10% of countries GDP during start of recession). Property bubble, its higher than neighbour inflation rate. 35% unemployment rate and public debt.
US: Property bubble, and mortage backed securities.
Italy: Quite stable during worldwide recession, but decrease in the country's industrial production and exports.
Anything else you wanna know? I can bet you Ronald didnt know this stuff.
For a change A+ didn't flunk jou naai, I was expecting you to blame Unions&BarackObama !!
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OLDLADY4
Tasto, with nationalisation problem, I meant the problem of us in SA not agreeing. Once again Spain, Europe, whatever. You can refer to any country to divert attention, it still does not address the corruption problem we have in SA. As long as we have the high corruption rate we currently have in our government, nationalisation can NEVER work to the benefit of the poor in our country, only to the benefit of the politicians.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Tasto - LOL, surprised you didnt blame apartheid or verwoerd for the world economic recession :PReport Abuse
Tasto
@OLDLADY4Tasto, with nationalisation problem, I meant the problem of us in SA not agreeing. Once again Spain, Europe, whatever. You can refer to any country to divert attention, it still does not address the corruption problem we have in SA. As long as we have the high corruption rate we currently have in our government, nationalisation can NEVER work to the benefit of the poor in our country, only to the benefit of the politicians.
Once read an article in SundayTimes where the columnists wrote, coruption is prevelant everywhere in the world but in Africa it is an industry.Having said that tha should not divert attention from Nationalisation we have corruption now before Nationaliztion where do we attribute to?
Let us try to be logical and bring quality in our discussion for the sake of SA progress instead of allowing disguised rightwingers&reactionaries here to sow confusion and divisions.
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SOLUTIONS
Can someone please explain to these idiots that the more they call for nationalisation the more investors will go away, the more investors that go the more people die of hunger. IDIOTS in the making, Thank you anc for giving SA a sh!tty education system,,,, This is what you and your supporters create, problem is with your education system the uneducated can't see that this is the road to disaster and will happily vote for you.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Let us try to be logical and bring quality in our discussion for the sake of SA progress instead of allowing disguised LEFTWINGERS & COMMUNISTS here to sow confusion and divisions.Report Abuse
OLDLADY4
Tasto, the only logic here is that we need to get rid of this corruption, before we can talk nationalisation. Believe you me, as a white child, I also ha.ted the Oppenheimers and such for having it all, while we would not have been allowed to keep a diamond should we have picked it up. The feeling is not exclusive to the black African. But, none of that matter now. Only now matters now, and now we need to purge our government of corruption before we give them more to corrupt.Report Abuse
Tasto
@OLDLADY4Tasto, the only logic here is that we need to get rid of this corruption, before we can talk nationalisation. Believe you me, as a white child, I also ha.ted the Oppenheimers and such for having it all, while we would not have been allowed to keep a diamond should we have picked it up. The feeling is not exclusive to the black African. But, none of that matter now. Only now matters now, and now we need to purge our government of corruption before we give them more to corrupt.
Thats is why was against disbanding of the Scorpions&droping of charges with out allowing JacobZuma his day in court!!
Against informationBill and for the Independency of Judiciary in SouthAfrica, corruption has been around even Jesus was betrayed by one of the twelve !!
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Buc4life
Some sectors of the economy can be nationalised so that everyone is on par, but the financial industry can never be nationalised, otherwise there will be chaos. First of all, it is important for the reserve bank to remain neutral. The governor of the reserve bank cannot be politically influenced, otherwise she will make wrong decision with regards to monetary decisions.the problem we have in SA is lack of skills. If the government were to give fertile land to unskilled people then we would be pretty much like Zimbabwe.
In a democratic political system, nationalisation can never really work, because in a democracy people can own whatever they want without the influence of the government.
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Tasto
I wonder where did the investors in Greece,Spain,US,Italy went to after Nationalisation of the banks there?Report Abuse
OLDLADY4
Ja, but if Jesus live in SA today, he'd have been betrayed by eleven of the twelve. I also want my share of the mines, but I know I'd get nada if we nationalise before we prioritise.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Tasto - "I wonder where did the investors in Greece,Spain,US,Italy went to after Nationalisation of the banks there?"Greece and Spain nationalised some of the banks (not all), and the investors pulled out of the country. Italy and US didnt nationalise the banks. The government bailed them out.
Investors withdrew out of greece and spain. They are now both crying for bailouts from Morkel.
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sgubhusenkwishi
@Sinudeity- You seems to be uncomfortable with everything and attacking everyone who comes up with a debate , hence I lose your take. Natiolisation and exproipriation is not an issue of africans but the issue is how can we as africans do it properly to ensure that it benefits all africans who lost their rights to land ownership and their resources to imperialists. But you seems to me to be out to protect those slave masters who exploited africans for years on their land under pretexts, that they were employers or job creators even though the land owners were forever poor under that unjust system.Earlier on we all agreed that africans must be empowered with skills, education, while dealing with corruption fiercefuly to ensure that they can develop their land and use their resources to create jobs for people without depending on imperialists who capitalise upon african lack of skills to have grip on african land for their selfish interests.
On other side we never ignored those corrupted and selfish africans who render this process difficulty for us to agree upon, either as govt agents or govning party. Ofcourse we all agree on proper regulation by govt with south african interest at heart not the political party.
You might be making a meaningful farming production now on my fore fathers land, but I shouldnt loose the ownership of that land and you still have to pay rent to me for using my land as the owner of that land. In future when I am ready to farm my land or build on it for differrent purpose or mine it for any potential resources underneath , you shouldnt be an annoiying issue on my interests as a landowner. I beleive you know that that is how all the capitalistic world operate if you are enlightened enough.
So stop those theories of the old order in confining your thoughts in a closed tin. The sun doesnt revolve around your head.We all have the same interests in job creation but regulation would ensure the secured future welfare of the work force and employees dignity, not the captives or slaves of the greedy heartless capitalists.
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Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - Your problem is, you want nationalisation, to take from the white man. You dont put any economic weight behind your discussions.Your paragraph is full of things like 'imperialist', 'slave master' etc. etc. etc.
Unfortunately its totally devoit of any economic understanding.
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WESOTAN
what they know about nationalisation,I guess they think that everyone will own Mines and Farms then sit down and fold arms and wait for the Farms to caltivate itself as well as the Mines.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "You might be making a meaningful farming production now on my fore fathers land"Like I said, all land claims from the unjust stealing of previously owned land by the apartheid government have been returned or recompensed. This is according to the government, and the courts of law.
You are just making noise now to try and justify YOUR theft.
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Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - Show me ONE socialist country in the world where the people are well of.Report Abuse
Mgaraji
sgubhusenkwishiSinudeity_ & Wakeupsa are apartheid beneficiaries, 3rd force deployed by DA to devide Africans
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Sinudeity_
Mgaraji - LOL, yeah, and I also own 1 bank and 15 mines :PReport Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
Ai do I even have the energy for this? Guys nationalization is a bad choice over and over again. Look at Panama? What did the powerhouse countries do? Boycott and sanctioned. We can not afford as a developing country to just oust our international investors, and the government sure as hell does not have enough money to buy out said investors without causing hyper inflation and more degradation. Just think like an economist and not like a ignorant human. Not even the ruling party believes it could work and if they don't think so how will a troop of baboons that can't even be unified think it could work?Report Abuse
Tasto
@Sinudeity_ - you liar or you think you have monopoly on information especially if pertains to Europe, Spain is caught between ordinary Spaniards who are withdrawing their money from local banks to overseas and investors who want to hold it at ransom with their pre-determined lending rates.Whole of Europe made a blunder probably by going single currency but they want to blame it on property bubble whateva tha means!!Rouge bankers created the mess in Europe&US!!Report Abuse
Tasto
@DanielrjvvurenAi do I even have the energy for this? Guys nationalization is a bad choice over and over again. Look at Panama? What did the powerhouse countries do? Boycott and sanctioned. We can not afford as a developing country to just oust our international investors, and the government sure as hell does not have enough money to buy out said investors without causing hyper inflation and more degradation. Just think like an economist and not like a ignorant human. Not even the ruling party believes it could work and if they don't think so how will a troop of baboons that can't even be unified think it could work?
That is called bullying not failure of Nationalisation just like in Zimbabwe the West should take the blame for their tactics oops I forgiot that too much to ask.Look @ Iraq&Afgahnistan you can't blame the West there too !!
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Danielrjvvuren
TastoPanama was rightfully sanctioned against when they took the canal without paying investors, its like me coming around to your house and taking your car, I did not pay for the car but hey lets take it its the nations. That is what is proposed here too. How would you otherwise buy out investors without stealing from them?
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Tasto
@Danielrjvvuren - took US canal? Thats why we can't allow outsiders to do as they like with our land!!Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
TastoPlease what a weak argument. US bought the canal with real money and when the US turned it into one of the busiest canals and boosted Panama's GDP by leaps and bounds they wanted a some of the pie and look at it now a leper colony. You want that same problem to happen here? Our main driver of our economy? What would sustain us otherwise hey? Agriculture? We don't have the skills to be a skilled labor economy so what then?
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Danielrjvvuren
You know what I'm going onto my FNB investor now and buying shares in the mines. Look I also own a slice of the pie now!Report Abuse
FarCeSpotter
Nationalisation is to South Africa what a shovel is for highway builder. Yes, you can move earth with it, but you will never finish the job. We need graders and CATSI am concerned that the ANCYL want to promote that they are the brains trust of SA, but they cannot grasp the enormity of the problem that we face.
Once they get to grips with what we we need to do to reduce poverty, it will be come so clear that nationalization will only make matters worse, as we will be so busy fighting the problems it creates that we will never get to improve matters.
Don't try to drive the Titanic with a outboard motor, Lamola.
But it is not really about doing the right thing, hey. It is rather to get into power, you two-faced liar!
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Tasto
Mugabe said Indigenisation of the economy and they all quee up to engage instead of blackmailing him and investors are still there.49% its a lot wonder why are they still hanging around uncle Bob?@Danielrjvvuren - not well versed in Panamian domestic politics like you and neva beleived RReagan and the Mormons even up to today.May you fill me in plse but not crap !!
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FarCeSpotter
Hi DRJV :)Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
TastoPanama agreed in the 1900's with the USA to receive $10 mill for the purchase of the canal lands, now back then you could buy Europe with that money! $1 mill in 1903 = $24,613,670.55 today now times that by 10. Then when the canal was turned into something of great profit the people of Panama decided to take what was "theirs" and not pay anyone back. The panama people on top of that got $250 000 per annum from US to use the canal so they paid them for the land and rented it from them and bam! Sanction, boycotts and wars because the people got greedy
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Danielrjvvuren
FarCeSpotterHey man! Long time!!
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FarCeSpotter
Hey Lamola,Nationalise the toll gates - they are sure to make money for no effort and benefit.
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Nyongoyamavenda
@TastoYou r blindly defending nationalism when in actual fact has never had mainstay sucess, in a country like S.A where there is so much povert and Julias malema(coruption) it wil be worse, just look how Limpopo is curently run a clasic example, thats we say we say Zuma must remain to prevent the anarchist from the north to extend their loot throut the country
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FarCeSpotter
DanielrjvvurenYes, sadly - too busy lately, but I do read the comments if I get a chance.
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Tasto
@Nyongoyamavenda - look @Mugabe Indigenisation of the economy (49% ownership of foreign businesses) they still sticking around uncle Bob!!Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
TastoYeah with hyper inflation being such an attractive option for investors....
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Nyongoyamavenda
@sinudeityYour ideas wil never help this country move forward,you argue on bigot groung and not in the best interst of this country moving foward,people like you and julis malema are a hindrance to this country realing its potential cos they arguments serve the narrow minded selfish ends
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YNOTY
masendeTHIS HOBO MUST GO BACK TO ZIM ND TAKE BATH LOOK AT HIM TJERRRRRRRRRRRRR HAMBOGEZA SAN
===============================================================
You need refrain from swearing at other people.
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Danielrjvvuren
FarCeSpotterSame hey. Don't find so many articles I deem fun enough to comment on nowadays. They seem all dried up and uneducated, but just had to comment on this.
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sgubhusenkwishi
@Sinudeity- people havent got all their land back includ. me and recently the minister on land affairs has released the statement with regards to that saying a lot of land claimants has not been honoured, the policy of willing buyer- willing seller has failed.You sounds bitter when I mention slave masters or imperialists , but more comfortable when I talk about corrrupted gvt officials and govt party, whats a matter with you.
I never pushed / suggested for any socialist state but my take is all about the nation regaining the rightful ownership of their own. My example is middle east whop controls its own fuel. However china is better off being a socialist contry than South africa and several countries.
Your fears are based on unproven economical theories, I never say people shouldnt work. But for arguement sake as you push me to, what differrent do you think you have in your economy, our people are on grants, free toilets, free small houses and they now want free electricity, who pays for that my tax and yours, how than do you see yourself as differrent from the socialist states? wake up sir. that is evidence based you dont even need to waiste your time in library to know about these.
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Nyongoyamavenda
@tastoJust the fact that you mentined zimbabwe shows that you are not even honest with yoself, If SA can be in the Zimbabwe is i think we can have a full civil war so stop making an example with Zimbabwe which as we speak rigth now there is shortage of food
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "Your ideas wil never help this country move forward,you argue on bigot groung and not in the best interst of this country moving foward,people like you and julis malema are a hindrance to this country realing its potential cos they arguments serve the narrow minded selfish ends"I only argue on the best interests of the country. Are you a pro-nationalisation dude? So thats why MY ideas are not good for the country, but yours are?
LOL, what? Fail the debate and then you going to call me right-wing, third force etc as well?
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Danielrjvvuren
Guys education education education! We need education. We can not build a house on weak foundations. Build it from the ground up better educated kids less AIDS and teen pregnancies and more University enrollment skilled labor. The answer is not in taking the mines the answer is taking the minds.Report Abuse
Winilen
My Fellow blogers let get one thing straight nationalisation is too risky.... very few companies are owned by SAns & i am not talkin abt tenderpreneures...we are not tht productive we depend too much on import and i cant blv that we are buying maize overseases...Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "I never pushed / suggested for any socialist state but my take is all about the nation regaining the rightful ownership of their own."So what makes something yours? Being a specific colour, or paying for it? You are under the perception, that whites just received land for free. That just isnt the case. Everybody pays to Ceasar what is due to Ceasar.
"However china is better off being a socialist contry than South africa and several countries."
China AINT a socialist country. Its economy is run as a capitalistic system. The only communist/socialist is how it manages its people. That includes death penalty, low minimum wages, no freedom of information etc.
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Tasto
@Nyongoyamavenda@tasto
Just the fact that you mentined zimbabwe shows that you are not even honest with yoself, If SA can be in the Zimbabwe is i think we can have a full civil war so stop making an example with Zimbabwe which as we speak rigth now there is shortage of food
Last week was reading a newspaper MorganTsangarai asking for lifting of sanctions against Zimbabwe now I don't know the domestic politics there like you as you seem in your last post, pardon me professor!!
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Tasto
@ DanielrjvvurenUnfortunatelty not well versed in Panama Canal Treaty of 1903 and question sovereignty of Panama.Hope you can fill me in here also abt US military aggression!!
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Nyongoyamavenda
@SinudeityNo you argu to protect your tribe not to advanc natinal agenda you must rememba SA has many tribes who must find the way to share the resources fairly and peaceful and dont forget that apartheid existed and blacks were deliberately excluded, a way must be find to ensure that at least they are pushed if this country and its future will be stable
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OFFLIMITS
FarceSpotter"Don't try to drive the Titanic with a outboard motor, Lamola."
LOL...that jus causes ripples in the water....
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Danielrjvvuren
TastoIf you spend Millions on a car and I take it won't you fight for it too? Or would you do the saintly thing and let me drive off with your prized car? I'm not versed in saintly behaviors maybe you can fill me in. Its like your standard rebuttal if you do not know what to write.
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Tasto
@Danielrjvvuren - there was an article abt a white farmer that has a squatter building a mansion in his property how do you solve this?Report Abuse
Nyongoyamavenda
@sinudetyYes whites received a big chunk of land for free,remember Vryheid republic and how it was founded zulus were defeated and their was taken, do you want us to take back our in that form we have chosen reconcialatin, dnt mention the 1913 land acts where blacks were simply moved to an unsable land
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FarCeSpotter
OFFLIMITSHehehe
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - And nationalisation will push that country in the right direction? You dont agree with nationalisation right?Do you KNOW what the problem is with South Africa and the unemployed?
Education, and overpopulation.
In the past 20 years, we've had more black billionares pop up than what apartheid could manage in 40 years. Not even the apartheid government could create millionares and billionares that quickly.
5 years ago already, black folks had more money than white folks combined. Do you KNOW what the problem is though? A disproportionate population.
Lets compare SUCCESSFUL countries, like BOTSWANA, do you know what their population is? And the average GDP per capita? Now compare that to South Africa.
Its YOUR responsibility to create jobs and employment, not whites. Weve pretty much saturated the market with employment. Its STUPID expecting 10% of the population to provide jobs for 90%.
Its also UNREALISTIC to expect that the government can cater these jobs. MEANWHILE, the businesses being created are USELESS tenderpreneurs, which bring NO WEIGHT into the economy, merely money chowers that dont provide long term employment.
AND YOU KEEP ON BLAMING WHTIES!
OPEN YOUR EYES DUDE!
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Danielrjvvuren
TastoColor is irrelevant if it is my property bought with money from a third party it is my property regardless. Should your claim to ancestral lands be with the third party that sold it to me or with me who unwittingly bought it from the third party? I own two properties bought with my hard earned money, if I find squatters is it my fault the government has failed them and then I must suffer? Why must I work for every scrap I can get and these people just take?
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Tasto
Not that it happened on my birthday but it(Nationalisation) is still working here in Africa:On July 26, 1956, Egypt's Gamal Abd el Nasser nationalized the canal in retaliation for the refusal by the United States and Britain to finance construction of the Aswan Dam on the Nile, a project valued at $1.3 billion at the time.
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Nyongoyamavenda
@tastoIm not claiming to know anything but before you give us examples you must check your facts, Zim unemployment is the highest in the world and you know very well what hapend with their curency and economy due to natinalisation just a few years back, things are getin beter now because of a new constitution with MDC inngovernment which is against natinalisation
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "Yes whites received a big chunk of land for free,remember Vryheid republic and how it was founded zulus were defeated and their was taken"LOL dude, you dont know your history. Land was TRADED, local tribes gave land to the voortrekkers for taking care of their niehgbours. Where the AWB dudes want to build their volkstaat is the portion of land that was given to the bo3re there for sorting out enemy tribes.
Dingaan killed the voortrekkers for trading with him, livestock for land. He took the livestock and murdered them. What did you expect? The people to just sit there and take it?
Of course, then the British came, and annexed all of the farms. The colony was ended in 1910. And people had to buy land from the government. Nobody is sitting on any free land dude.
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Danielrjvvuren
TastoIs that canal the linchpin to their entire economy? No? Debate in context please. You are comparing why can the eagle have the mouse if all the mouse want is the cheese. The two are totally different structures.
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FarCeSpotter
Sinudeity_You got it bro.
For years the debate in the ANC revolved in how to equalise matters by taking from the whites. They have not realised the only way to equalise matters is to grow the economy. Nationalisation is just a continuation of the same.
It does not create more jobs, nor does it stimulate growth.
We need to grow our economy to a Ten Trillion Rand GDP. Can anyone tell me how nationalisation is going to help in that objective. We need a TTR plan. In my view this can only be achieved by having the most favourable investment climate and good schooling and good infrastructure and cheap resources. In all of these the ANC is failing.
Ownership was earned by these farmers by many years of hard work. They fed our nation. They must keep what they earned.
If there was a case of unjust occupation I am sure that no person would object in restoring this to proper position - and that was mostly done.
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Danielrjvvuren
Guys i'm out of here. Time for Varsity! Fun and games I'm telling you. And ALL Education is key to all your problems!!Report Abuse
Winilen
@FarCeSpottergood point broe
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Maratachelete
Can these boys just shut up and go to school or something,everyday nywnywe!Report Abuse
sgubhusenkwishi
People have got the worst expectations and fears when it comes to nationalisation, not everything would be nationalised, it would go on phases, like land given back to owners and foreign investers would still have access to rent to use it if interested , bussinessmen are renting bussiness areas anyway. So why worry than ? Only apartheid beneficiaries are worried , who escalate propaganda that investers would run away that is a fallacy. Most of the land under the whites is no longer in use anyway, last week I went around the country to assess a lot hectors of land is lying lazy or hidden as game reserve without even rabbits, we dont need so many game reserve anyway, the land must be farmed to produce food sothat food prices could come down or used for something differrent. Therefore the gvt must invest on young farmers education to put this land to full use.Report Abuse
Nyongoyamavenda
@SinudeityI like your lecturing although at times you seem to mis point completely
1.black have nnever had more money than whites Jse has always been contrlod by whites
2, about blacks being bilionairs in short time, you must take into considration that apartheid sa was operating in isolation unlike now we are in globalisation is much easier to tise fast than it was then
3.yes botswana is doing well but there is still lot of poverty in Botswana just much like SA, in terms of GDP south africa is far ahead of botswana
4. Y talk about whites as if they are aliens to this country whom we expect to do all things for blacks, the fact is whites enriched themselves in the past at the expense of black people so they are part of this countries problems and its solution and that we are not begging
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Tasto
@DanielrjvvurenTasto
Is that canal the linchpin to their entire economy? No? Debate in context please. You are comparing why can the eagle have the mouse if all the mouse want is the cheese. The two are totally different structures.
Thats exactly what US did to Panama build Canal in Panama and claim it like a squatter that comes and just build a mnsion or is it difficult to understand or colour of the skin makes the difference?
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Tasto
@sgubhusenkwishi - tell them!!Report Abuse
Mgaraji
Nyongoyamavenda@Sinudeity
I like your lecturing although at times you seem to mis point completely
1.black have nnever had more money than whites Jse has always been contrlod by whites
2, about blacks being bilionairs in short time, you must take into considration that apartheid sa was operating in isolation unlike now we are in globalisation is much easier to tise fast than it was then
3.yes botswana is doing well but there is still lot of poverty in Botswana just much like SA, in terms of GDP south africa is far ahead of botswana
4. Y talk about whites as if they are aliens to this country whom we expect to do all things for blacks, the fact is whites enriched themselves in the past at the expense of black people so they are part of this countries problems and its solution and that we are not begging
_______________________________________
100% correct
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Tasto
@ DanielrjvvurenTasto
Is that canal the linchpin to their entire economy? No? Debate in context please. You are comparing why can the eagle have the mouse if all the mouse want is the cheese. The two are totally different structures.
I hope you were talking abt Suez canal success story, it is massive to its GDP and it’s a fact.They tried to bully other African countries not to develop the Nile river but what is good for the gender is good for goose I think so – Ethopia built Nile Damn in Ethopia and Egypt objected initially (typical Foreign aggression)!! What you do with your land has nothing to do with outsiders\investors Ethopia showed us!!
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sgubhusenkwishi
@Tasto- sure bru , sinudeity is an AWB speaker in this forum and we accept and respect him for that, but he must tell us facts not lies , we are watching him closely.Report Abuse
Nyongoyamavenda
@FarCesPotterWhites took everything from blacks including dignity so we are not taking from whites all we want is the fair equal distribution. Your hardned attitude is very worrying looking at where we come from it seems as if its Blacks alone on this road of reconciliation,
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FarCeSpotter
sgubhusenkwishiYou are trying to justify that one take a shovel and build a Hartebeespoort dam. It just aint going to happen, no matter how much you try and explain it and make it sound attractive and fair.
You can nationalise as much as you want - poverty will not be addresses. Then rather be honest and say that you want revenge - because that is all you will achieve.
And you must know that the mines and farms and banks are not owned by the "whites". They are owned by pension funds, investment funds, overseas companies etc. So you are just going to upset all investors and in doing so cause such damage that SA will never recover.
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "black have nnever had more money than whites Jse has always been contrlod by whites"In South Africa, black folks have more buying power than white folks. Saying you dont have money in the JSE is your own fault. Also, you cant compare 'white folks' to 'black folks' on the JSE, because its investors from ALL OVER THE WORLD investing on the JSE.
Thats like saying, few South Africans have shares in the NASDAQ.
"about blacks being bilionairs in short time, you must take into considration that apartheid sa was operating in isolation unlike now we are in globalisation is much easier to tise fast than it was then"
Right, because we know how Cyril, Tokyo and Motsepe got their initial assets from. Important persons with right connections, allowing them to grab up all the BEE shares on offer for next to nothing.
During Mbeki's tenure, 80% of all tenders went to Cyril and Tokyo. Very convenient.
"yes botswana is doing well but there is still lot of poverty in Botswana just much like SA, in terms of GDP south africa is far ahead of botswana"
GDP per capita, Botswana is ahead of us. In terms of GDP per person, we are 6th in Africa. Thats not good.
"Y talk about whites as if they are aliens to this country whom we expect to do all things for blacks, the fact is whites enriched themselves in the past at the expense of black people so they are part of this countries problems and its solution and that we are not begging"
No, no. Whites were not ADVANTAGED during apartheid. Black folks were DISADVANTAGED. White folks had to take loans from the bank, offer assets as collateral, take the risk and everything else. The difference is, you were not allowed to.
The thing is, you cant handicap people, trying to catch up with them. Im not going to put my education on hold, waiting for you. You should realise, that while you are busy catching up, my taxes etc. are providing for universities, schools, electricity etc.
Now you are trying to screw me, because of apartheid. Even though, Im indirectly helping you.
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "Whites took everything from blacks including dignity so we are not taking from whites all we want is the fair equal distribution."What if I give you half of EVERYTHING I earn every month?
Cool, done deal. Now go speak to the tax man.
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FarCeSpotter
NyongoyamavendaNo brother - I am not trying to reconcile here. I am trying to find a real solution. reconciliation was attempted by the TRC and other forums.
I wish that we can see that we as a human race is full of flaws and we make mistakes all the time. Look at slavery, killing of aborigines, killing of red indians in usa, extinction of animals, massive oil spills, etc. We make mistakes.
In SA we are trying to find a way of making success for everyone (or at least that is what we should be doing). In my mind we have to grow our economy in order to achieve this. We cannot take the same wealth and distribute it amongst 50 million people and make them wealthy.
And to punish the current generation for what happened in the past is useless. I say we are all living better here in SA than in the rest of Africa - that is what we have achieved no matter how it came about. Now let us make it even better.
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FarCeSpotter
sgubhusenkwishi@Tasto- sure bru , sinudeity is an AWB speaker in this forum and we accept and respect him for that, but he must tell us facts not lies , we are watching him closely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I have yet to meet a AWB with the brains of Sinu. lol. But then perhaps I dont mix in the right circles :)
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Dont understand how you want us to share our wealth (5 million) with 35 million.Report Abuse
FarCeSpotter
In my mind the people of SA are the best in the world. We are mostly caring and friendly people, trying to make a honest buck.Our crimes are not the worst in the world. Look at what the Germans did to the yews (and I am a German). Look at Rwanda. Look at Genghis Kahn. Look at Pol Pot.
We had unfair laws for 50 years or so. And perhaps there was a longer period where whites were dominant in their position of influence. This has been changed for 20 years almost.
We never set out to do mass killings. We never sent millions to gas chambers. There were injustices - but at the same time there was also good - some schooling, hospitals, etc. not equal I agree, but it was never an attempt to totally crush anyone or nation. I thinks many of these were the result of economics - simply no better could be afforded.
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sgubhusenkwishi
avatar image31-Jul-2012
FarCeSpotter
sgubhusenkwishi
You are trying to justify that one take a shovel and build a Hartebeespoort dam. It just aint going to happen, no matter how much you try and explain it and make it sound attractive and fair.
You can nationalise as much as you want - poverty will not be addresses. Then rather be honest and say that you want revenge - because that is all you will achieve.
And you must know that the mines and farms and banks are not owned by the "whites". They are owned by pension funds, investment funds, overseas companies etc. So you are just going to upset all investors and in doing so cause such damage that SA will never recover.
That propaganda you are potraying is very dangerous for this country and it shows resistance of your people in taking party to reconciliation, all the potential and present investors they appreciate the road we have walked in achieving this democracy and they are prepared to work with us to complete this process, they know about the damage caused by the evil system of apartheid to our physical and emotional being , so while they are investing here they are also happy in seeing, the reconciliation process unfolding and the manner in which those who were harmed by that evil system being fairly healed and recompansated. Nobody is talking about taking investors bussissnesses here is all about people asked to comply to restore the human rights and dignity to those who were unfairly treated by the past, is not about revenge.
But I am worried about people of your kind who want to act as if they are ignorent of the past,hence wishes to earn forgiveness and do nothing as well, wishing everyone must just ignore everything about the past, where is your heart mr. be a party of a reconciliation please, nothing more and nothing less, that is not too much to ask.
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Sinudeity_
FarCeSpotter - Im not a friggin AWB dude :PReport Abuse
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "That propaganda you are potraying is very dangerous for this country and it shows resistance of your people in taking party to reconciliation"Get real dude, its the concern of people who know that the economy will COLLAPSE if we impliment nationalisation. Is Zimbabwe not a clear enough indicator for you?
95% unemployment? Electricity issues for the next 10 years.
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Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - WE DONT need nationalisation to reconcile.You are pulling the bottom of the pool here to try and guilt us into nationalisation.
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MommaC
sgubhusenkwishiPropaganda?
You do know that PIC is a major shareholder in Anglo American and that a huge portion of black South African pensions are tied up in those shares? Look it up if you don't believe me.
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FarCeSpotter
Sinudeity_FarCeSpotter - Im not a friggin AWB dude :P
>>>
I know friend, I know :) hehehe it is strange when you try to argue in the non "mainstream group think stale biased black vs white" you become AWB. I want to see you riding your horse with red and white - and please do the hat thingy too. lol
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Sinudeity_
FarCeSpotter - Hehehe, I'll start singing de la rey :PReport Abuse
Nyongoyamavenda
@SinudeiyYou r now persnaling things i dnt want your money bt redistribution of the economy is a must job resevation for whites for too long did untold damages to potential blacks
'share our wealth' that is our wealth that we were denied acces for centuries, i wonder what do you want this country to become,my fear is with people like you Julius will rule this and you wil tealize that we are trying to protect you as well but then it wil be too late
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FarCeSpotter
sgubhusenkwishiBut I am worried about people of your kind who want to act as if they are ignorent of the past,hence wishes to earn forgiveness and do nothing as well, wishing everyone must just ignore everything about the past, where is your heart mr. be a party of a reconciliation please, nothing more and nothing less, that is not too much to ask.
>>>>
You see I have done nothing that I feel ashamed about. If anything I have to feel bad about being German - my father fought as a Nazi. Did he agree with it? No. Did they know about the gas chambers? No. Let me tell you many Germans were controlled by fear.
In the same way there are many whites who did not agree with the apartheid system. But it came about in the same way as the ANC got into power - through an "elected" government. It was wrong. But we still live bette here than in the rest of Africa. Let us make it even better.
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sgubhusenkwishi
@Sinudeity- take it easy man , get on the back of your horse and put Farcespotter on your back riding along the golf coast.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - LOL, now you are using Julius fearmongering :PReport Abuse
FarCeSpotter
sgubhusenkwishihehehe I dont play golf by the way - but I like the image.
Nyongoyamavenda
In case you have not noticed: there is more poverty in other countries, even those that had no evil whites. India and China being good examples. No dude - poverty exist despite the propaganda that you are punting.
Sinu: de la Rey lololol
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16-12-1838
This nationalisation merry-go-round is ridiculous and extremely tiring as the only result will be a drastic increase in the downward slide of our economy and .There are many reasons, that have already been well documented, why we should all be against this suicidal policy. Modern history is also littered with many fine factual examples that prove these reasons.
So...
Can someone who disagrees with all this evidence then PLEASE explain the unique mechanics of nationalisation in SA? How will the whole process work? Why will it work? Why will it not chase away the small amount of foreign investment we already have? How will it be sustained long-term? ...and finally, the most important question of all...How will the average uneducated, unemployed, shack dweller benefit and his childrens children benefit?
Rational questions I believe? Please, please, please can someone enlighten me and eliminate my very grave concerns - I will be the biggest supporter of nationalisation and promote it 24 hours a day if there was even the tiniest chance that long-term economic upliftment for all South Africans could be guaranteed, achieved and sustained through the process of nationalisation!
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FarCeSpotter
NyongoyamavendaHey man. Julius has many similarities to Hitler. Please beware of that idiot. He will look you in the eyes whilst lying to you and taking your wallet from your back pocket.
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Nyongoyamavenda
FarcI begin to realiz that actualy we dnt nid reconciliation it was done just to further betray blacks from not getin their land,what a political shame
Yes human beings always make mitakes one of such is for blacks to belive there is reconciliation, Germans did made horrible mistakes but they have paid billoins of dollars for reparation i think sa must take that route before julius take advantage of the situation
We are not punisjing any1 thats why we hav not taken our land back,wr are just giving those who were deprived oppotunities in the past so as to level the playground
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FarCeSpotter
16-12-1838Right with you. It is only in SA where people will follow the uneducated, uninformed and unrealistic. I have not heard a single proven intelligent man agreeing with nationalisation.
Yet thousands will follow a under educated president and a bullying fool that cannot pass woodwork.
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Nyongoyamavenda
@sinudeityCall it fearmongerin when it hapen it wil be worse than swaartgevaar
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sgubhusenkwishi
@ Farcespotter , but that doesnt make your father innocent to those multitudes of the jews who were slaughtered and put to gas chambers by the Nazis, however here in South africa even revenge to those who hurt us is not an issue, we talking cheap approach of reconciliation without even a single drop of a chicken blood, waisted. Why is this too hard comparing to other cases.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - All stolen land has been returned to its rightful owners. I think there is 3 court cases left to resolve the last remaining land cases.Everything else, is not stolen land. Merely propaganda you have been fed. If you want land, you have to buy it, just like everyone else, then you can call it YOUR land.
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - "Call it fearmongerin when it hapen it wil be worse than swaartgevaar"Yeah, yeah. My boots are shaking :P
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FarCeSpotter
NyongoyamavendaI agree to pay compensation. But then we need to offset it against the billions that was spent on schooling and medical care, etc..
Can you see Hitler building hospitals on the one side for the yews and then sending them to gas chambers a the same time. Can you see how very different us and the Germans are?
No man. It is not about "taking". Believe it or not - many whites did not take anything from the blacks. They earned a lot and yes they were advantaged for many years by unfair laws. But never did they steal anything. It was very unfair and we have to find ways to fix it. The best way to fix it is to uplift people from poverty. I am all for that.
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - I think that people who promote nationalisation probably wouldnt put up much of a fight in a civil war type situation. And ours will be a battle of attrition, and you aint gonna handle well in such a war.Report Abuse
Nyongoyamavenda
@farcIm hapy you realiz that julius has the potential of bein worse than Hitler,so join us in making this country succesful work wth us not against us
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Dont forget that your politicians (Julius included) are stealing money meant to uplift the poor. To the tune of R30 billion a year (That which we know of).Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Hehe, we are working with you. We are telling you, nationalisation aint gonna work. You owe me a huge favour for that tip.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Oh, and f*** julius. A tannie from boksburg could beat the cr@p out of him. He's a useless tool who's only power lies in the media giving him a microphone. Empty cans make the most noise.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Work with us, not against us, in making South Africa better.Report Abuse
FarCeSpotter
Nyongoyamavenda@farc
Im hapy you realiz that julius has the potential of bein worse than Hitler,so join us in making this country succesful work wth us not against us
>>>
I am not motivated by fear or force.
I will join you to make this a successful country because this is my childhood dream.
I will NEVER support JM as he is a grave danger to us. So as long as you support free market fundamentals and sound economic policy I will be by your side. If you want to make a demagogue the president I will fight or leave. Simple really.
One cannot create wealth from taking from others. Wealth is created by effort and benefit.
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FarCeSpotter
Sinudeity_Nyongoyamavenda - Work with us, not against us, in making South Africa better.
>>>>
Elegant!
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Nyongoyamavenda
@sinudeityEspecialy you Sinu not harmd maent i think you are just hapin about whites all the time
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - Nah, I dont 'hapin about whites all the time'.Its the black commentators that focus on the colour of my skin. Thats why instead of arguing logically, they will bring in apartheid, AWB and right-wing. Im immune to that kind of arguing.
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FarCeSpotter
Sinu - where do you live? (town)Report Abuse
sgubhusenkwishi
@ Sinudeity- mind you we are not Zimbabweans and we think differrent to them as well, however we dont want people to prejudge us and take us for a ride as if we are easy targets. Is not fair for people just to pressurise us with fear of what would happen if we pursue nationalisation, our take to nationalisation wont be the same as those failed states, that is why people should engage it in debates and come up with their fears and get their fears addressed if need be. but we must also bear in mind that it takes two to reconcile, and two parties has to be contributors than miserable recipients all the time.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
FarCeSpotter - Cape Town at the moment, born and raised in Joburg. Urself?Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - But nationalisation/expropriation is not a way of reconciling. Its merely a way of taking and leaving the other person with nothing.The problem I have with sowetan, and the nationalisation debate, is people not getting their facts/figures straight.
Like people saying, stolen land must be returned, when in fact, 99% of all stolen land has been returned. The rest is just fearmongering or guilt tripping. No logical reasoning behind that.
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FarCeSpotter
SinuApologies for delay - home via traffic
- Joburg
Born and raised in small town in Mpumalanga, but in JHB for last 27 years
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Nyongoyamavenda
Sinudeity_Like people saying, stolen land must be returned, when in fact, 99% of all stolen land has been returned. The rest is just fearmongering or guilt tripping. No logical reasoning behind that.
i wonder where do you get these figures,or you are literaly lying to yourself but certainly not to us
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - From the government.http://www.southafrica.info/about/social/land-010808.htm
http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/agriculture_land_reform/most_land_claims_almost_finalised.html
Where do you get your information from? Whos lying to whom here?
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - In fact, reading the latest land claimants report from the government, most outstanding land cases involve government property:http://www.pmg.org.za/report/20120207-department-rural-development-and-land-reform-special-investigative-un
Only a handful of cases involving white owned property remaining.
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sgubhusenkwishi
Sinudeity - that is baseless, many South Africans havent had their landclaims attended to, you are only interested to the AWB claims nothing else, where is a spirit of reconciliation there.Report Abuse
Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "AWB claims"Like I said, you will rely on things like 'awb, imperialist, apartheid and right wing' to bull$h17 your way out of facts. Like I said, guilt and fear is how you want to achieve 'reconciliation'.
Im immune to that kind of nonsense, just cold hard facts.
And fear and guilt isnt fact dude :P
You lose.
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Sinudeity_
sgubhusenkwishi - "that is baseless"Straight from the minutes of the governments land reform office :P
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Traveljunie
Why does this braindead orginisation still excist? They must be disbanned, and let off into the sunset. SA do not have space for them anymoreLamola is a condom, he is beibg used by his commie tjommies. And he is a bit retarted the poor fool.
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mjimara
Hands on deck boys. Aluta Kontinua!Report Abuse
Nyongoyamavenda
Sinudeity_Nyongoyamavenda - From the government.
http://www.southafrica.info/about/social/land-010808.htm
http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/agriculture_land_reform/most_land_claims_almost_finalised.html
Where do you get your information from? Whos lying to whom here?
2007/8 report ? i dont it is refering to land restitution,its imposible
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Sinudeity_
Nyongoyamavenda - So, if those reports are from 2007/2008, just think how much progress has been made in 4 years.The latest one I linked was from 2012, and as it stands, most land claims are regarding government owned property. Most claims regarding land restitution with regards to white owners have been resolved.
I think you have been eating up too much propaganda my friend. The truth and propaganda are two very different entities.
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Botludi
Dream on young man. It might happen someday. It will definitely no be in your lifetime.Report Abuse
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