Let them give it a try,before some dicy political party claims it is their idea Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
dimpho_4U
all talk and no action..lets wait and see..if these subsidies will benefit the youth,or won't end being another exploitation,_________anyways bright idea Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Mananga
Brilliant idea if its going to benefit youth!!!!!!!!!!! Report Abuse
Wow you people sure have very selective memories and ra cist views. Isnt this what the DA took to the street for and were attacked by the law less Cosatu? But now that a bl ack man says the same thing it is a good idea. Fukkk you ppl are pathetic Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Implement it and get it over with, cosatu with their negative stance in holding the country and the youth back.. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
Of course business would support the wage subsidy, it benefits them. This is how each party benefits and why some are against when some are for:
1. The ANC – by creating this subsidy they are hoping to quell youths who have increasingly becoming involved in service delivery protest often complaining of a lack of jobs in their communities. The ANC wants to be seen to tackle the problem and they hope more youths will b employed through the initiative.
2. The DA – if they are seen to be championing the cause then that is political mileage for them and they hope to raise their profile amongst young black voters. It is very difficult for the DA to get votes amongst older voters who experienced the pain of being ruled by a white man. Younger voters are less attached to our past and there less likely to use race as a determining factor when voting.
3. BUSA / BBC – the subsidy means money from government to help reduce costs. If government funds a portion of the wage bill than cost to income ratio improves significantly. Given the absence of stipulation that requires that the cost be used for new jobs only they can simply employ younger workers to replace older ones so in the end all you achieve is changing the demographics of workers without creating new jobs.
In this whole debate one feels like COSATU is the only party that is engaging honestly, all the other parties have a vested interest and are pushing for implementation. The wage subsidy is a good idea in principle but the devil lies in the implementation thereof, how the system is managed is of paramount importance otherwise this has the potential of being an exercise in futility with business the only winners.
. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
Dzel
As usual you forget to mention the part about Cosatu missing out on the fees the youth would pay had they been employed otherwise. How about looking at the DA doing their job and championing for the people. They are doing it for the YOUTH. Not the bla ck youth not the w hite youth not the co loured youth or even the in dian youth BUT the YOUTH!!! Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
DZEL, you BUSA /BBC is completely flawed, remember this subsidy will work for 6 months per time per person, the older people in business are needed as they are the ones to teach the young ones, any business that get rid of the experienced people will be stupid and there is a law that says you cannot just fire someone without cause and replace them.
This program has been done and tested all over the word with great results, it is currently running in the W.C already on a smaller scale with great success. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
dimpho_4U
@DA-DBN-GUY,yes,yes the YOUTH in general .no segregation nor discrimination irrespective :the DA or ANC bla ck,white or Indian etc Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
tokolosi
huhhh....how is this different to Nationalisation now, really? if I run a business, I can hire extra people who's wages are partly paid by the taxpayers - but I dont have to share the profits with taxpayers.....so everyone gets a hand-out in South Africa heh Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
MommaC
Dzel
Cosatu does have a vested interest. Subs.
Cosatu does nothing that won't financially benefit them.
Interesting survey that put 70% of the youth in favour of this. Makes you wonder why they are not being listened to over and above the political posturing. It affects them the most so they should at least get a say in the matter Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Tokolosi, The companies who does this will get a better monthly output and create more taxes, the person will still be taxed on his salary, he will have a salary to buy stuff which is taxed.
Which do you think is better, this or the hand outs that our government is giving? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
tokolosi -- But then isnt social gratns nationalisation? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUY
As usual you forget to mention the part about Cosatu missing out on the fees the youth would pay had they been employed otherwise. How about looking at the DA doing their job and championing for the people.
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1. You work on a simplistic assumption that the youth in question will not be members of COSATU and workers laid off will be COSATU members.
What do you base this assumption on, it seems unreasonable to me.
2. The DA did not do anything; they want to claim credit when the spade work has been done already. Theirs is an opportunistic struggle for black votes and support their real constituency, SA’s business sector.
Cosatu does have a vested interest. Subs.
Cosatu does nothing that won't financially benefit them.
Interesting survey that put 70% of the youth in favour of this. Makes you wonder why they are not being listened to over and above the political posturing. It affects them the most so they should at least get a say in the matter
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You need to prove this subs theory or at least explain it so it makes sense.
Yes the youth will want the initiative but the objective should be larger than which demographic of workers stand to benefit and look for solutions that benefits everyone and does not unjustly penalise workers who are too old to allow the employer to derive benefit from the scheme.
I repeat; I am against a system or policy whose impact will be older employers losing jobs so they can make space for younger workers. The impact is social where breadwinners will be sacked, who will support their families that is why we need to be very careful about how we implement such schemes.
ehhh - R60K or less earners dont pay tax - so how is the wage subsidy going to boost revenue coffers? any tax on additional income ontop of R60k is absolutely meaningless compared to the subsidy paid out - how on earth can a subsidy improve quality - what is stopping quality improvement now? as for increase in buying power through a grant, it is nationalisation (simply put: govt is driving the demand for goods through usage of taxes - but that doesnt mean the supply will automatically increase) - inflation my actually increase
social grant - DoubleStandards is an incentive for not to be productive but rely on the state for life to take care of you Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
MommaC
Dzel
Younger people are less likely to join a union.
Now how are they going to fire older employees? Our labour laws won't allow you to fire someone even if you have justification for doing so. I very much doubt that they would get away with it. There is also the question of experience. No business man worth his salary would employ a trainee to do an experienced job. That is just asking for trouble. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
tokolosi -- The subsidy isnt about taxes or boosting revenue coffers, its about giving youths skills. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
MommaC
Younger people are less likely to join a union.
Now how are they going to fire older employees? Our labour laws won't allow you to fire someone even if you have justification for doing so. I very much doubt that they would get away with it.
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Younger workers tend to earn lower wages which puts them firmly in union membership demographics. They tend to be more troublesome hence they need the union's protection more. Unfortunately I can't share the demographics I have access to but trust me on this one.
The answer to your second question is natural attrition. When an older employee resigns, dies or is promoted you replace them with a younger one, simple. Overtime your demographics change as well.
It is very wrong to block initiatives that are bound to solve problems. People should come up with suggestions to help alleviate their fears instead of only criticizing. For example a risk assessment exercise must officially be engaged as a way of putting measures in place to deal with foreseeable possible problems. Nothing becomes perfect from the beggining. There will be teething problems and trial and error along the way. But a good management of risk will circumvent a lot of possible teething problems. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
skhokho21
Plzgetreal1, Where in the WC is this policy active? The president has n`t sign this into law so are people operating the WC outside the laws of the country`s constitution or are you trying to make your DA run WC to look good with propaganda as usual.
DA-DBN-GUY, You & your DA are so desperate for glory, this is an ANC policy but you hijacked it for reasons Dzel mentioned. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
skhokho21 -- I think the bigger question is, who is so anti DA that they would deny the opposition party any credit? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
I wonder what the unemployed youths care more about. Zumas painting, or a chance at upskilling and employment. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
tokolosi
no problem solved by this subsidy - but just increasing the number of people that will be totally dependant on the state for survival (including firms)....how will I ever make losses as a business person...NEVER: when times are tough, retrench and keep the govt-sponsored employees and recover (hey someone is going to share my losses now)....
DoubleStandards - revenue coffers of whom exactly? cause this is just redistributing the already existing income to even those that dont have a chance in hell of making anything out of their lives....Simply put: this is a way of making RSA a socialist country quicker...soon all of us will be getting govt grants and no need to work hard really
@NgqondoX2 - risk assessment - heheee, mncim, dreams.... Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
skhokho21
Dude please!!! If it is an anc policy why hasd it not been implemented anywhere in the country that is run by the anc even on a trial basis and only in the WC that is run by the DA. You are so color conscious taht you cant see who the real implementors are! Time you ditched the black, yello, red and green for colors that truly work for the people. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
Ngqondongqondo
It is very wrong to block initiatives that are bound to solve problems. People should come up with suggestions to help alleviate their fears instead of only criticizing.
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What the DA does not tell you is the youth wage subsidy is being discuss at NEDLAC; the ANC, DA and COSATU are all represented in this forum and if the DA was genuine in their motivation they would apply pressure in these session instead of political grandstanding in the form of a self-serving march.
COSATU has never objected to the subsidy, like me they are very caution about the implementation thereof and want to prevent a situation where government subsidies costs incurred in the private sector when they have no direct stake in or a direct share of the profits derived.
You and many people have been misled by the DA who have twisted facts to suit their agenda.
Your r.acism is hectic dude, get over you colour problem, Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUY
Dude please!!! If it is an anc policy why hasd it not been implemented anywhere in the country that is run by the anc even on a trial basis and only in the WC that is run by the DA.
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You need to be very careful of ill-information and insisting on a point when clearly you are oblivious to facts.
The wage subsidy is ANC policy still under review but remains ANC policy nonetheless. The ANC government has pledged and approved R 5bn towards the project. The DA's borrowed mini-version amounts to a mere R 9m per year.
The DA has jumped the gun and is running trial because in its current form the model is pro-business and does not place checks and balances that are necessary to make it a real success and new jobs are actually created instead of recycled jobs.
tokolosi -- But the youths uplifted by the subsidy wount be reliant on government over the period of their employment. Thereafter they have a foot in the door and they can seek sustainable employment.
Do you know what the difference is between social grants and youth subsidy? The one you give to a person to learn new skills, the other one you give to a person for doing nothing. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
Dzel
Please we all know that no matter what the DA propose or try to implement the anc and cosatu, with sheer numbers not counter arguments or proposals, block them when it is put to a vote. Do you frget so quickly that the DA were trying to apply a bit of pressure during their legal march. But you guessed it were hijacked and attacked by the cosatu mafia's goons, ILLEGALLY too mind you! YOU GET MISLED BY THE ANC AND COSATU DAILY WITH TWISTED FACTS AND RACIAL SLURRS. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- Grandstanding marches? But thats how you do things in South Africa.
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No, a march is supposed to draw attention to the issues, grandstanding is when the march is designed to draw attention to the organisation leading the march. The DA's march is about as self-serving as Malema's march for "economic freedom".
The DA is playing to the black section of the political gallery.
Dzel -- No Im sorry, you are not speaking truthfully. Moeletsi Mbeki said yesterday or the day before that the ANC is deindustrialising South Africa. You are saying "pro-business" as if it is a bad thing. Maybe all the socialists should stop complaining about unemployment because they are anti-business. We need more businesses, we need more skills. What we do need less of is unions. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
Dzel
So if its anc policy why are they dragging their heels to implement? If the DA are already doing it in the WC ,no matter the scale, who are the implementors? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
cornelius
Dzel, your logic is flawed. According to you, any person or party that proposes something positve is being dishonest, because by makin the proposal, they are improving their public profile.
You also failed to the most important party/group, and the bnefit to them, nl the youth, whose continued unemployment, every commentastor agrees, is a ticking time bomb int he country.
Yes the parties are represented at Nedlac. It is precisely there where COSATU has consistently been the stumbling block. How do you " apply pressure in these sessions" as you say the DA should do ? The government has been shrugging itas shoulder and saying they cannot implement it without COSATU's buy in
What is wrong with applying the pressure through a legal, peaceful march ? Do you tell COSATU never to march, but rather to " apply pressure in the sessions" ?
You are not objective in the least, simply joining the bandwagon of criticising the DA for everything they do, good or bad. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- "No, a march is supposed to draw attention to the issues, grandstanding is when the march is designed to draw attention to the organisation leading the march. The DA's march is about as self-serving as Malema's march for "economic freedom"."
Thats how you see it, Im afraid plenty of other people see it the other way. Please dont quote your opinions as facts. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Ngqondongqondo
@Dzel
I am quite aware about Nedlac. What I am saying is that those people who are representing the different sectors of the community must always agree to do a risk assessment which will help as far as progress is concerned instead of throwing abuses to one another in the public domain to score political points. We need prudent people to honestly represent our interests for this country to really make a headway regarding solutions to our problems. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
DZEL - You have been misled by COSATU's lies, they are straight against this youth wage subsidy because people would be on a temp basis and what does it help if you are on a temp basis and belong to a Union, you can't strike etc. when the union wants you to so why pay the membership.
Please we all know that no matter what the DA propose or try to implement the anc and cosatu, with sheer numbers not counter arguments or proposals, block them when it is put to a vote. Do you frget so quickly that the DA were trying to apply a bit of pressure during their legal march. But you guessed it were hijacked and attacked by the cosatu mafia's goons, ILLEGALLY too mind you! YOU GET MISLED BY THE ANC AND COSATU DAILY WITH TWISTED FACTS AND RACIAL SLURRS.
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Your problem is you know so little and yet you are so insistent even indignant in your responses.
Do your research then we can continue this discussion when you are better informed.
Ngqondongqondo -- Ja and not stone throwers depicting our national policies. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- But what research did you do? You only read the COSATU headlines where they said that the subsidy will displace older workers. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
Dzel
So many people against what you say. Maybe tis you that needs more research. when you done you know where to find me Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
skhokho21
Forgot to add, the W.C is leading by example. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
No Im sorry, you are not speaking truthfully. Moeletsi Mbeki said yesterday or the day before that the ANC is deindustrialising South Africa. You are saying "pro-business" as if it is a bad thing. Maybe all the socialists should stop complaining about unemployment because they are anti-business. We need more businesses, we need more skills. What we do need less of is unions.
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See the problem is we are fed the lie that for business to thrive then the success has to be built on the exploitation of labour, this misconception needs to be addressed. We come from a past where a section of our society was viewed as nothing more than mules to be exploited by business or people of another race.
As a consequence you can see the impact of that in our socio-economic landscape. You are advocating for our people to be kept in the doldrums so business can thrive and by extension those who own the means to capital who happen to be white in the main. There has to be a healthy balance between cost, safety, profit and a sound business environment, you cannot and should not advocate for policies that deliberately seeks to keep our in a state of perpetual poverty.
cornelius
Dzel, your logic is flawed. According to you, any person or party that proposes something positve is being dishonest, because by makin the proposal, they are improving their public profile.
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no, any party that claims to be a champion of a policy they have high-jacked is being dishonest, big difference cornelius.
Secondly COSATU is not a stumbling block at Nedlac, their are saying parties need to explore options so at the end of the day the most logical solution is implemented complete with relevant checks and balances; what is wrong with this approach?
Dzel -- But being pro-business does not necesarily mean exploitation of labour. Thats like saying unions are purely associated with stone throwing.
You cant bring up apartheid to justify your anti-business stance. We have millions of unemployed people in South Africa. If you are anti-business, it means you are not giving any suggestions to uplift them.
"you cannot and should not advocate for policies that deliberately seeks to keep our in a state of perpetual poverty."
But you are missing the point of the subsidy. Its to give people skills. So that you can write that "1 year experience" on your CV. Giving people welfare grants is how you keep them in perpetuat poverty. But giving people work to do, a small salary and experience, thats how you lift someone out of poverty. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
Ngqondongqondo
I am quite aware about Nedlac. What I am saying is that those people who are representing the different sectors of the community must always agree to do a risk assessment which will help as far as progress is concerned instead of throwing abuses to one another in the public domain to score political points.
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Agree with you a 100%, but you also need to look at the chronology of the escalation in hostilities between Vavi and Zille from the time Vavi claimed there was an attempt to recruit him into the DA to the march itself. I saw a distinct attempt by one party to demonize the other and perhaps hijack labour issues for whatever purposes.
Check the chronology and tell me if you don't see a pattern.
Dzel -- Pattern? You can see patterns in everything. Doesnt mean that its real. I wonder how the DA went from recruiting Vavi to marching to COSATU offices. You see what your problem is? You are saying any policy brought up the opposition party is bad, even if it carried merit. This isnt logical thinking. Its called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- You could have just argued on the pros and cons of the youth wage subsidy but instead you had to smear the opposition party. Thats how I can see your claims here are not genuine. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
DZEL
We come from a past where a section of our society was viewed as nothing more than mules to be exploited by business or people of another race.
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Please 18 years into democracy and this is getting old, there will always be poverty in a country where the people
people fornicate like rabbits and have no income, THE COUNTRY CANT CATCH UP TO THIS.
the elite only look after themselves
Nepotism
corruption
It is time the people start to look after themselves, hence the DA is pushing for this program, so that they can do something with their lives.
As a consequence you can see the impact of that in our socio-economic landscape. You are advocating for our people to be kept in the doldrums so business can thrive and by extension those who own the means to capital who happen to be white in the main. There has to be a healthy balance between cost, safety, profit and a sound business environment, you cannot and should not advocate for policies that deliberately seeks to keep our in a state of perpetual poverty.
This program will train youth in positions and can escalate to these youth starting their own businesses, whether it is black or white youth. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
You have been misled by COSATU's lies, they are straight against this youth wage subsidy because people would be on a temp basis and what does it help if you are on a temp basis and belong to a Union, you can't strike etc. when the union wants you to so why pay the membership.
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You know the irony is we debated the youth subsidy here on this before I even read COSATU’s position and reasoning on the matter and I was struck by how almost identical my reasoning was to COSATUs. You can have a look at the debate in question and compare the logic if you don’t believe me.
I am an independent thinker PGR, I analyse a situation and formulate an independent opinion. While not susceptible to influence but often that is after I had thought about the subject matter and formulated my own opinion. One thing I have in common with Cosatu is concern for black people and fighting for our rights both as citizens and as works.
Dzel -- Sorry broer, today I dont believe you are an independant thinker. Today I believe your opinion is formed by your hate for the opposition party. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- Pattern? You can see patterns in everything. Doesnt mean that its real. I wonder how the DA went from recruiting Vavi to marching to COSATU offices. You see what your problem is? You are saying any policy brought up the opposition party is bad, even if it carried merit. This isnt logical thinking. Its called cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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That’s not true, I will credit the DA when they come up with policies that make sense and are worthy of praise.
Yesterday I was debating e-tolling with friends and when they tried defending Zuma by arguing he is not responsible for decisions to implement the system I mentioned that I admire Zille because when she sees a project that does not hesitate to stop it dead in its tracks until she understands pertinent facts. That is an admirable quality and I give her credit for that.
My opinions are non-partisan DS; I judge based on merit, my reflection on the matter and the desired outcome.
Dzel -- I dont see the point in debating if your mind is already made up. Good day sir. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUY
Dzel
So many people against what you say. Maybe tis you that needs more research. when you done you know where to find me
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Errr.. sir ... the truth in a debate is not necessary relative to the number of people who support it.
You could have just argued on the pros and cons of the youth wage subsidy but instead you had to smear the opposition party. Thats how I can see your claims here are not genuine.
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Because the DA seems to thins black people are idiots and wants to treat us as such.
I am an independent thinker PGR, I analyse a situation and formulate an independent opinion. While not susceptible to influence but often that is after I had thought about the subject matter and formulated my own opinion. One thing I have in common with Cosatu is concern for black people and fighting for our rights both as citizens and as works.
It is sad that Cosatu is only fighting for black people, we are a country of many races and all should be equal, but that is just my opinion, when this came around I also went to read up on it, go and google about Canada, use the Canada google and search for their pages and see how highly this program is accepted there. there is other countries as well, just got the most info from the canadian websites.
So, I like to formulate my own opinion, after I went to investigate, I don't just make up my mind and say that is fact, research go's a long way, My one dear friend once told me "If you can read, you can send a man to the moon" Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
Because the DA seems to thins black people are idiots and wants to treat us as such
Please give us some proof? The DA is fighting for this program to empower black people as well, why the blinkers? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
You cant bring up apartheid to justify your anti-business stance. We have millions of unemployed people in South Africa. If you are anti-business, it means you are not giving any suggestions to uplift them.
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I am bringing up a historical context that has influenced how labour is structure, how some races are more affluent than others and WHY should should reject policies that are meant to preserve the status quo.
The key word in the second part of your response is the "small salary" bit, whats wrong with paying a fair and decent wage?
Dzel -- We all start out with small salaries. Your first year of employment is not about how much money you earn, its about experience. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
Please give us some proof? The DA is fighting for this program to empower black people as well, why the blinkers?
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How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?
Please list and elaborate on these "program to empower black people"; this should be fun.
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- We all start out with small salaries. Your first year of employment is not about how much money you earn, its about experience.
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My first pay check in 1996 was a mere R600.00.
Then what are you going to do with that experience, will you let it grow into your own multi million business or sit and stagnate in what you have learnt. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
This program will train youth in positions and can escalate to these youth starting their own businesses, whether it is black or white youth.
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That is a bit of a stretch, what kind of training will transform someone from a directionless unemployed youth to a budding entrepreneur in a space of six months?
Dzel -- "How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?" - Maybe because they knew there was going to be violence? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?
Please list and elaborate on these "program to empower black people"; this should be fun.
I did see some of them getting hit with rocks, dude, is it only black people who needs empowerment, what about the w.hites, what about the Indians and the coulourds . They are planning to create 423 000 jobs, are you implying this will be for white kids only?
It is sad that Cosatu is only fighting for black people, we are a country of many races and all should be equal, but that is just my opinion, when this came around I also went to read up on it, go and google about Canada, use the Canada google and search for their pages and see how highly this program is accepted there. there is other countries as well, just got the most info from the canadian websites.
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Don’t stop there, please draw parallels between our labour markets and Canada....
Do we have the same kind of economy, same employment rates, same demographics or skills in the labour market for example?
Don’t just cite a country and think you’ve made a case, when you cite an example you need to show me parallels to convince me that this is in fact a model that worked in a context similar to our otherwise the comparison is meaningless.
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- We all start out with small salaries. Your first year of employment is not about how much money you earn, its about experience.
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Nice come back but I think we both know what you meant, if you didn’t I apologise.
@Dzel
I don't rally care about individuals' emotional spats. I'm talking principle here. All I'm saying is that our leaders must grow up and learn to rise above emotions and concentrate on principles. Concentrating on emotions is a sign of immaturity like a child throwing tantrums. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
cornelius
@Dzel, come on really. The subsidy will benefit all youth, more so b.lack youth, because of AA policies. So the march is supported by mostly b.lack youth. Yet you say, somehow, you cannot see that the DA is supprting b.lack youth tthroughtheir vigorous support for the subsidy ? Ag no man, there is none so blind as those who do not want to see. By the way, the DA has implemented a youth subsidy inthe WC with the funds that it has. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
My first pay check in 1996 was a mere R600.00.
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In what context?
My first salary was R 250,00 but I was a part time receptionist at our varsity res. I can't use this fact in a debate about full-time employment since the context is not the same.
Don’t stop there, please draw parallels between our labour markets and Canada....
I did not say just Canada did I, also, the youth wage subsidy is for young people seeking experience, does not matter whether you are a snow plowman in Canada or a tiller in SA, that is not what it is about, it is about getting the youth experience and into jobs, Getit,
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Do we have the same kind of economy, same employment rates, same demographics or skills in the labour market for example?
No we don't theirs is a success because they and other 1st world countries is running the program. it does not matter about the economy as long as it can be afforded. Now you ask me about employment rates, Why the F^*k do you think they implemented it?
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Don’t just cite a country and think you’ve made a case, when you cite an example you need to show me parallels to convince me that this is in fact a model that worked in a context similar to our otherwise the comparison is meaningless.
Just do yourself a favour, I sat for about 2 hours to read about the successes about these programs all over the world, not just Canada, as I said, Canada websites gave me the most information. I can't put 2 hours reading in 10 lines,
If you are so sure of your side of the story, go and read up on what it can do. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- "How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?" - Maybe because they knew there was going to be violence?
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Oh maybe because the target market was young black kids whom is incidentally is a known demographic the DA is targeting, the target was to day look at the DA we care for you. This from the same party that opposes AA, BEE, minimum wage and is in favour of casual labour and labour brokers.
Just do yourself a favour, I sat for about 2 hours to read about the successes about these programs all over the world, not just Canada, as I said, Canada websites gave me the most information. I can't put 2 hours reading in 10 lines,
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Also, it is already working successful in the W.C Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
Ngqondongqondo
I don't rally care about individuals' emotional spats. I'm talking principle here. All I'm saying is that our leaders must grow up and learn to rise above emotions and concentrate on principles. Concentrating on emotions is a sign of immaturity like a child throwing tantrums.
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But politics are by design driven by vested interest; principle is a plus but never a guarantee.
cornelius
@Dzel, come on really. The subsidy will benefit all youth, more so b.lack youth, because of AA policies. So the march is supported by mostly b.lack youth. Yet you say, somehow, you cannot see that the DA is supprting b.lack youth tthroughtheir vigorous support for the subsidy ?
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You somehow managed to confuse my points so much so you now have me confused :-)
The point I am making is the march was stage managed to attract young black voters to the DA, who actually benefits from the subsidy is another matter completely.
I presume you have never owned a business?
Young workers are not a preferential employment sector for a number of reasons that aren't going to change just because of a work subsidy. There is a very good reason that older people find it easier to find a job. Reliability, stability, experience, and much more come to the party and they are worth more than a year or two worth of subsidy could ever compensate for Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Manala
@Dzel
You know the irony is we debated the youth subsidy here on this before I even read COSATU’s position and reasoning on the matter and I was struck by how almost identical my reasoning was to COSATUs.
I am an independent thinker PGR, I analyse a situation and formulate an independent opinion. While not susceptible to influence but often that is after I had thought about the subject matter and formulated my own opinion. One thing I have in common with Cosatu is concern for black people and fighting for our rights both as citizens and as works.
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It seems you are an independant thinker as long as it is in line with what Cosatu tells you to think.
We all know Cosatu feels F&^kall for the citizens of this country. Their only concern is for their members and how to grow membership so the fat cats at the top can justify their six figure salaries.
Cosatu and the Labour Act as it stands today are the two major stumbling blocks in creating jobs in this country. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
This from the same party that opposes AA, BEE, minimum wage and is in favour of casual labour and labour brokers.
This part just shows me how uninformed you really are about the DA, you obviously make your opinions in your head before you go and do some research which just now showed that it is u.seless trying to debate with you. You use the f.iction in your head as fact, you make me think of jajaqueen, exactly the same.
They do have their implementation on p.reviously d.isadvantaged people, go to the w.ebsite and read up on it please, you are making a fool of yourself. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
Please give us some proof? The DA is fighting for this program to empower black people as well, why the blinkers?
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How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?
Please list and elaborate on these "program to empower black people"; this should be fun
BEE. AA are two policies that aim to empower black people but as is normally the case with the anc it was corrupted and perverted to only enrich the cronies and elitists of the anc. The reason, in my opinion, why the anc hasnt implemented the youth subsidy, eventhough they have set a budget aside, is because they are still looking for a crony that hasnt benefitted from our tax money.
White people in general appreciate their jobs, as AA and BEE dont allow for us to get jobs that easily anymore, so wont just leave work for illegal strikes and protests. the white youth are also part of the unemployed but either find a way to study to further themselves or take whatever jobs they can and then improve themselves. they dont rely on a youth league to promise them minerals and unworked for riches or management positions because of some misguided entitlement chip they carry. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
MommaC,
Whether I have owned a business or not is not the point. You are right about older older workers being more reliable though but consider the following illustration.
Scenario 1: you have a choice of hiring young workers and you pay 90% of their salary with a total cost of say R 27,000 p.m. across 10 jobswith government paying the remaining 10% with no additional claim to profits.
Scenario 2: you are completely staffed by older workers at a total cost of R 30,000 to the company (100% of the wage bill).
As a business person which of the two scenarios would you choose?
I would go for scenario 1 and be very stringent in my selection criteria.
This part just shows me how uninformed you really are about the DA, you obviously make your opinions in your head before you go and do some research which just now showed that it is u.seless trying to debate with you. You use the f.iction in your head as fact, you make me think of jajaqueen, exactly the same.
They do have their implementation on p.reviously d.isadvantaged people, go to the w.ebsite and read up on it please, you are making a fool of yourself.
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Please inform me then, don't refer to policy or their webs.ite. Make you case and I will engage with you.
For your information I have debated these policies on this forum a number of times. The chronology is always the same; accusations of ignorance, reference to the si.te and then I state my case and support it with supporting material, followed by obfuscation and then silence by DA supporters.
Give it a shot PRG, I dare you. Show me what the DA says about the stated policies and we can debate them. Don't tell me I am ignorant simply because you want to appear like you know what you are talking about.
Training a worker takes an awful lot of time and money. You essentially have two people doing the same job. Young people have a terrible tenancy to jobhop. That means that you are almost constantly training someone - i.e. paying twice for one position. Then you have to take into consideration the reputation of your company. It costs almost 10x the amount to get a new client as what it does to keep an existing one. Existing clients only put up with so many errors prior to changing to a different supplier. The danger of that happening because you have inexperienced and unreliable staff is too great a chance to take. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Shredder
@Dzel - Because the DA seems to thinks black people are idiots and wants to treat us as such.
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You deserve for this one Dzel. LOL Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Ngqondongqondo
@Dzel
The chairperson at Nedlac should have steered the engagements away from being dominated by emotions to being centred around principles. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Shredder
Shredder
@Dzel - Because the DA seems to thinks black people are idiots and wants to treat us as such.
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You deserve a Bells for this one Dzel. LOL Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
MommaC,
It appears we have moved away from the topic, lets backtrack a little. We need to make one thing clear, the wage subsidy at least as I understand it is purely to subsidize salary.
What does training have to do with this and we are now disusing behavioral patterns?
It seems you are an independant thinker as long as it is in line with what Cosatu tells you to think.
We all know Cosatu feels F&^kall for the citizens of this country. Their only concern is for their members and how to grow membership so the fat cats at the top can justify their six figure salaries.
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Of course membership is the bottom line for any union but it would be difficult to argue the fight against e-tolling was motivated by membership and membership alone. Besides slating Cosatu what do you have to add to this debate?
Ngqondongqondo
@Dzel
The chairperson at Nedlac should have steered the engagements away from being dominated by emotions to being centred around principles.
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Give it a shot PRG, I dare you. Show me what the DA says about the stated policies and we can debate them. Don't tell me I am ignorant simply because you want to appear like you know what you are talking about.
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Sorry, I run my own company and between work I quickly comment on some subjects, I was also brought up to find things out for myself and it worked for me, I was not spoon fed, the websites and links I referred to I read myself, hence I can see I know more about the subject, I a not thumb sucking like you do, at least I have references, go out and read about them instead of making statements you know nothing about, you will notice I am not lying.
Ja nee. Some people like to throw names calling when debating. I don't know if name calling and insulting is what makes one think s(he) is putting facts across or what. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
Sorry, I run my own company and between work I quickly comment on some subjects, I was also brought up to find things out for myself and it worked for me, I was not spoon fed, the websites and links I referred to I read myself, hence I can see I know more about the subject, I a not thumb sucking like you do, at least I have references, go out and read about them instead of making statements you know nothing about, you will notice I am not lying.
on my way to a meeting, enjoy,
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PGR, you miss the point. I know DA policy inside out so referring me to a site that contains content I am already familiar with but which you have presented in a manner that is disingenuous does not mean you are right.
The statement I posted on AA, BEE, casual labour, labour brokers is true, you can't refer me to a sit.e and then pretend you've made a point, you haven't. i don't need you to spoon feed me, I need you to put together a coherent argument that disproves my claim. Hiding behind how busy you are is as transparent ads Malema claiming to be an economic messiah of sorts..
Dzel - "Oh maybe because the target market was young black kids whom is incidentally is a known demographic the DA is targeting, the target was to day look at the DA we care for you. This from the same party that opposes AA, BEE, minimum wage and is in favour of casual labour and labour brokers."
I just looked through the DA's policies and no where do I see them being against AA and BEE. They are actually in favour of it. If you are telling us blatant lies that was easily researched why should I believe any of your debate? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel - The irony is no matter which way the debate ways you keep on attacking the DA. Your true intentions are showing. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Ngqondongqondo
@Dzel
Thanks for a good debate you've been the pioneer. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel - The article is about the black business council, supporting the wage subsidy, yet you find every opportunity to attack the DA. You have ulterior motives here, your debate isnt steared by logic, but by your bias.
Again, I cant debate with you if you are not debating from a point of logic, but from a point of predetermined prejudice. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
MommaC
Dzel
The subsidy is a short term payment for young, inexperienced people. That is why the training and behavioural patterns relate. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
I just looked through the DA's policies and no where do I see them being against AA and BEE. They are actually in favour of it. If you are telling us blatant lies that was easily researched why should I believe any of your debate?
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read the policy closer then you will see they advocate for a "need based" AA and on BEE they advocate we move away from rewarding ownership and concentrate on training instead.
Now if you understand the principles and objects of AA and BEE then you will realise that their policies pay lip-service to both policies and is afront to the origional objectives of these policies.
I am not telling lies about the DA, I am just able to read between the lines and get to the crux of the matter, comprehension over reading at faced value.
Ok Dzel, this is the last time I am going to spoon feed you, you are like a teenager who thinks he is always right, no wonder the anc calls their ilk youth until the age of 35.
So you say the DA is against BEE and AA, the DA are against the current BEE policy as it only allows the few elite that makes their money from tenders, if you have BEE status you get tenders and most of these are anyway done by another 3rd party (contractor, the DA wants a review on BEE so that it is not calculated at ownership but on skills development. Skills development will empower the people and not just the few elite and the corrupt ways that makes a few people rich.
What I will do for you now is copy and paste from the DA’s economic policy, please go and read it at:
http://da.org.za/docs/10309/Economic%20policy.pdf
It will give you more information as to what I remember from it,
Thank you,
2.4) Broad-Based Economic Empowerment (BBEE)
BBEE is an economic and moral imperative for South Africa. If correctly
implemented, not only will it redress the imbalances of the past but it will pull more
people into the economy, stimulate competition, improve our skills and productivity,
raise our domestic investment levels, reduce poverty, increase employment and
broaden our tax base.
The DA believes that BBEE interventions as currently constituted have created
significant distortions in the economy that are not conducive to economic growth.
Although it has enriched an elite few, the current black empowerment criteria have
done little to uplift the poor. Despite more than R150 billion worth of Black Economic
Empowerment deals being undertaken, more than 40 % of our population still lives
on less than R370 a month. Clearly, whatever it may be, the current economic
empowerment process is not broad based.
The DA believes that it is necessary to undertake a comprehensive analysis of BBEE
in terms of its impact on the economy and whether it has achieved its stated
objectives. A credible system to collect information on BBEE should be developed
and a mechanism to use the information adopted.
This review will explore the merits and consequences of:
• Placing less emphasis on ownership, and more emphasis on skills training
and socio-economic investment, in the weightings accorded to the various
categories used to evaluate businesses.
• Developing ways to prevent credits from being used over and over again by
the same individuals.
• Establishing an ombudsman to resolve questions of compliance quickly
Below this is the implementation program, please go and read it. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
I am not telling lies about the DA, I am just able to read between the lines and get to the crux of the matter, comprehension over reading at faced value.
Oh dear, please have mercy, like I said before, you make things up in your own mind and believe it. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
Dzel - The irony is no matter which way the debate ways you keep on attacking the DA. Your true intentions are showing.
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Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people.
Do you expect me to vote for a party that seeks to reverse all policies meant to restore dignity to the black community and reverses the socio-economic impact of apartheid, what do I benefit from doing that?
Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people.
Do you expect me to vote for a party that seeks to reverse all policies meant to restore dignity to the black community and reverses the socio-economic impact of apartheid, what do I benefit from doing that?
You are not able to have proven this once. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel - Like I said, the article has got nothing to do about the DA. Yet you are against the wage subsidy, because the DA is in favour of it.
You say that the DA is trying to manipulate black people with regards to the subsidy march, but you say nothing about the ANC manipulating black people to go and march for a painting of Zuma.
"Do you expect me to vote for a party that seeks to reverse all policies meant to restore dignity to the black community and reverses the socio-economic impact of apartheid, what do I benefit from doing that?"
You can vote COPE for all I care nowhere did I tell you to vote DA. All I want is you to discuss the youth wage subsidy without your prejudices.
The youth wage subsidy is rubbish, because the DA is against BEE/AA is lacking in debate and intellectual application. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PGR,
It will give you more information as to what I remember from it,
You will note that in the post above yours I state exactly what you think you are teaching me in a summarised version.
Let’s break BEE down so you understand the objectives better and so I point out why the DA’s version is ab.surd.
First the logic behind BEE is that it does not make sense to give people freedom yet the economic power is left in the hands of the minority so we need to make access to capital easier. Where a company wants to benefit from government tenders or in enterprises where government can influence ownership then there must be bla.ck owners who in turn will benefit financially from the deal. By giving this class access to finance then they are in a position to open a second business, go into other ventures or pass on the capital to family and friends so they are also able to get off their feet.
Plus the obvious benefit of a better living standards for the people concerned and their families so you give an opportunity to one person but the pool that benefits is larger. BEE is in the form of ownership of capital but also coupled with AA you appoint people whom you deploy to the private sector where they can influence big business, think Patrice Motsepe, Saki Maqozoma and other comrades who have been deployed into the business sector.
Whilst the issue of skills is important you must think I am an id.iot to accept the argument you present. The ANC has also recognised that the issue of operational involvement is important and they want this to be incorporated into an improved model of BEE.
The DA’s proposal on the other hand wants to shift focus from ownership to training so basically economic ownership and po.wer remains in the hands of w.hites and to some extent Indians so b.lacks remain the foot soldier who do the donkey work. Send them to short courses that make them better servants to their masters and we will reward the master for this. The balance of power does not change, ownership does not change and neither does racial representivity.
Please explain to me what I should be excited by the DA’s version that pays lip service to bla.ck economic emancipation?
Who really benefits from the DA’s version; bl.ack worker or business and current holders of capital?
Yes there have been problems with the implementation of BEE, you need to address the problem and not move completely to another model that defeats the purpose.
Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people.
Do you expect me to vote for a party that seeks to reverse all policies meant to restore dignity to the black community and reverses the socio-economic impact of apartheid, what do I benefit from doing that?
You are not able to have proven this once.
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Dzel -- You want youths to immediately be made directors and CEO's. Sorry boet, doesnt work that way. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
Dzel - Like I said, the article has got nothing to do about the DA. Yet you are against the wage subsidy, because the DA is in favour of it.
You say that the DA is trying to manipulate black people with regards to the subsidy march, but you say nothing about the ANC manipulating black people to go and march for a painting of Zuma.
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There is a direct link between this article and the DA march kind sir.
I see little connection between this topic and the march but for your info I thought the march was idiotic as there is no legal nor moral grounds to oppose the painting. Again, another topic debated with friends at length where I state why it is dangerous to go on this slippery censorship slope.
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- You want youths to immediately be made directors and CEO's. Sorry boet, doesnt work that way
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your whole argument about what BEE is now we all understand, it is not working, hence my comment that I gave that it is only a few elite that benefits from it. Just because my company is registered and bla bla bla, BEE at the moment it means I can get a tender, this tenders is usually done by other 3rd party people as well who can't even do the job.
Please look at the roads in zimpopo and agree with me once, the DA want the policy to be that the people must get the training, it must not only be validated on ownership but the whole company must be qualified to be called BEE.
At the moment if an BEE company gets a tender he just offers the tender to the lowest bidder, ten to one who was in the same meetings as him. The DA want the people who is working for the company who gets the tender to benefit, get the correct training and maybe start their own businesses.
You are 100% right there is problems with the current BEE, there have been for the past 18 years, it is time for a new model, anc has failed again.
I am excited about the DA's plan with both their BEE and youth wage subsidy because it will give skills to young people to do their own thing, do you have your own company?
Young people with skills have active minds and with active minds comes good ideas, empowering them is the right thing to do, not just to empower a few elite who has no care for the youth and the unemployed. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- You dont want newly employed youths to earn a small salary, you dont want them to earn experience. You dont want them to be 'slaves of wites'. Therefore, you want them to be directors and CEO's. No other conclusion can be drawn. Everyone works for a boss. The skin colour of the boss is irrelevant. You can either start your own business, work for a boss, or be unemployed. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PGR,
The DA’s answer to access to capital is *d.rum r.oll*
Yep, give bla.cks access to cr.edit. Lindiwe came up hu.ffing and puf.fing dem.anding the ANC government speed up the transfer of titl.e de.eds. Their lo.gic is if one can prove ownership of immovable property then they can use that as security against which they can borrow from the private sector.
At face value this sounds good but if you know how financial institution work you’d know you have to ju.mp through hoo.ps before being granted a l.oan especially high risk business lo.ans, he.ll you almost to be Chin.ese to get a lo.an (figuratively speaking of course). You have to have access to your own finance to supplement the loan, you have to be cre.dit wor.thy, have an almost perfect business plan and then have a proven track record.
Sounds good on paper but almost impossible to implement and achieve the stated goal.
Then there is the little issue that should you def.ault on this loan then the bank in question will eventually repossess the very property you’ve just inherited from government.
I suppose if you are Lindiwe and you know very little about financial markets you’d think you’ve had a eureka moment, but if you understand what you are talking about you’d realise this is much to do about nothing. I notice though that Lindiwe has since gone quiet on the proposal, perhaps someone told her just how si.lly she was being.
Everybody supports this subsidy because it has a success rate all around the world, Including South Africa as the wage subsidy has already been implemented in some companies, giving mostly positive results. We have 3 employees in our company that are beneficiaries of the subsidy.
COSATU wants to block the subsidy because it changes the structure of bargaining.
A person on the subsidy is actually employed by government working in the private sector. COSATU is a direct benefactor of real wage increases every year because the higher your salary is, the more COSATU and other trade unions gain from you as a member. It is easy for COSATU to bargain with big business with the support of the ANC, to drive anger towards "monopoly capital" to achieve their goals.
However, what if the ANC was the employer like it would be in the wage subsidy? It changes the ball game completely. COSATU having to bargain with the ANC weakens the alliance as we have seen it weaken the alliance during municipal and civil servant strikes.
Where am I going with this? While its simple.........COSATU wants to achieve its goals bargaining with a boardroom full of wh!tes rather than having to deal with the ANC top brass to achieve its goals.
I need to clarify one thing before answering your question, what race do you belong to?
We are in a new SA, race does not matter. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
The-Rothschilds
COSATU wants to block the subsidy because it changes the structure of bargaining.
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I wish you guys understood what you are talking about instead of making statement full of ignorance.
The wage subsidy does not mean you reduce wages; the burden to the employer reduces yes to say 90% of the total wage and government pays the remaining 10% but the wage itself does not changed.
It matters when you support an argument because it maintains the status quo.
We can pretend we are now equal or we can explore different challenges that face various communities and explore which solutions are best given the context. Right now it I am convinced you are white based on your self-serving line of debate.
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- You dont want newly employed youths to earn a small salary, you dont want them to earn experience. You dont want them to be 'slaves of wites'.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you missed the post where I say the subsidy is a good idea but if its only impact is to subsidizing existing jobs by shifting worker demographics then it is an exercise in futility when the only winner is business.
COSATU wants to block the subsidy because it changes the structure of bargaining.
====================================================================
I wish you guys understood what you are talking about instead of making statement full of ignorance.
The wage subsidy does not mean you reduce wages; the burden to the employer reduces yes to say 90% of the total wage and government pays the remaining 10% but the wage itself does not changed.
==============================================================================
You have no idea what you talking about mate. Please dont twist my words.
The wage subsidy is a tax redemption on your total wage bill if you created more employment in your firm.
Hence as a company, i can claim a rebate from government if I hired 10 more people. If there was no new employment created, you get no subsidy.
I dont feel like getting into a debate with because i dont think you really understand how the subsidy, or anything for that matter works anyways. I offered to send you information showing you evidence of the success story of the subsidy here in our firm but you refused. Quite clearly deeper personal issues are blocking your judgement.
Please dont respond to my comments again! im begging you! Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- So you are pulling the race card now? All wites are self-serving? Khulubase, Malema, Cele, Roux, Shibangu and those guys must be white then. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
PSG,
It matters when you support an argument because it maintains the status quo.
We can pretend we are now equal or we can explore different challenges that face various communities and explore which solutions are best given the context. Right now it I am convinced you are white based on your self-serving line of debate.
With your line of debate I can see you have a huge inferiority complex, I faced many challenges in life to get me where I am today, so did you, you can't say yours was worse than mine, or the other way around, at the end of the day we are here to make a living and support to what is the best for our country, because if we support what is best for our country out country men can stand up for themselves and build a nation where all is equal. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
Whats the matter PSG, trying to figure out which race should you claim as your own so you don't expose your true motivation? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
SVR
@Dzel
"Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people. "
You say that the recruitment of young blacks is a mere ploy, to serve the true constituency of the DA, but by turning young black men and women into DA members, does this not by it's very nature change that constituency? Does it not also stand to reason that it is then this constituency who will raise future leaders of the party? I see this as natural evolution. I also don't agree with your view that pro business is a swear word that equates to anti worker. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
The-Rothschilds
SVR
@Dzel
"Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people. "
You say that the recruitment of young blacks is a mere ploy, to serve the true constituency of the DA, but by turning young black men and women into DA members, does this not by it's very nature change that constituency? Does it not also stand to reason that it is then this constituency who will raise future leaders of the party? I see this as natural evolution. I also don't agree with your view that pro business is a swear word that equates to anti worker.
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i couldnt agree with you more.
I think Dzel just probably has a big fat g@y wh!te boss that he can't handle :) Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
Whats the matter PSG, trying to figure out which race should you claim as your own so you don't expose your true motivation?
I am proud of my race, tell me, why do you care, what would you say if I said I was a black male, or woman? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
xBusi
@Dzel
>Right now it I am convinced you are white based on your self-serving line of debate.
Common Dzel, don't make this about race. The same could be said about your aguments. Debate the issue not he man. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
With your line of debate I can see you have a huge inferiority complex, I faced many challenges in life to get me where I am today, so did you, you can't say yours was worse than mine, or the other way around, at the end of the day we are here to make a living and support to what is the best for our country, because if we support what is best for our country out country men can stand up for themselves and build a nation where all is equal.
+========================================================
There we go again, I have earned my position because of .....
Try answering the question, it is a simple question really.
So you, a white man and also a businessman who stands to benefit directly want to tell us that the wage subsidy as it is proposed today is the best solution for the country.
You want to convince us that a form of BEE that keeps ownership in the hands of the minority is again the best solution for the country.
I can see why you are excited about both policies, the question is can YOU UNDERSTAND why I am NOT or doesn't it matter to you?
>Right now it I am convinced you are white based on your self-serving line of debate.
Common Dzel, don't make this about race. The same could be said about your aguments. Debate the issue not he man.
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Apartheid was based on race my sister therefore the solution has to be along racial lines.
How many whit.es do you know who live in a shack, work as unskilled labour (maids, gardeners, car guards, etc) and face the same socio-economic challenges that a low-income typical black family face.
Should I pretend we are equal, happy and the birds are singing?
There is a reason why Malema became popular as soon as he fashioned himself as an economic liberator, you guys don't seem to understand why. One of his messages is he will not rest until b.lack people live like whit.es or perhaps in your world these differences don't exist.
There we go again, I have earned my position because of .....
Try answering the question, it is a simple question really.
So you, a white man and also a businessman who stands to benefit directly want to tell us that the wage subsidy as it is proposed today is the best solution for the country.
You want to convince us that a form of BEE that keeps ownership in the hands of the minority is again the best solution for the country.
I can see why you are excited about both policies, the question is can YOU UNDERSTAND why I am NOT or doesn't it matter to you?
0--------------------------------------------------------------
You see, there you go again, you thumb suck something and make it a fact, a fact for your little head.
I am a one man show and tend to keep it that way, I don't need your anc tenders and am just doing fine, I share my part in a local community and involved where more than a 1000 kids get food everyday, what do you do except to try to take away from the youth and people of SA by supporting a failed model.
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I can see why you are excited about both policies, the question is can YOU UNDERSTAND why I am NOT or doesn't it matter to you
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Yes, you do not want other people to excel and bring their part in society, you are afraid of competition and to lazy to work your a.ss of to build your own company, you would rather fight for the position you have now and stagnate in it without any competition of youth getting experience. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
I am proud of my race, tell me, why do you care, what would you say if I said I was a black male, or woman?
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Honestly, I’d be very surprised then I’d try to knock some sense into you.
How many whit.es do you know who live in a shack, work as unskilled labour (maids, gardeners, car guards, etc) and face the same socio-economic challenges that a low-income typical black family face.
Should I pretend we are equal, happy and the birds are singing
White people births in S.A is less to the amount of deaths, we are only 4 million in an over 50 million populated country, there are poor white people in S.A,, it is more difficult to come by them because family usually takes them in I agree.
Please go and look at the growth of black people in south Africa, also due to your anc with stupid grants and free gifts.
Stop your white hate and compare apples with apples. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
xBusi
@Dzel
All I expect from you is not to generalise to what people of any colour SA stand is for and what they want. I enjoy many of your debates, but I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
Honestly, I’d be very surprised then I’d try to knock some sense into you.
You could try, but you won't succeed. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
The-Rothschilds
xBusi
@Dzel
All I expect from you is not to generalise to what people of any colour SA stand is for and what they want. I enjoy many of your debates, but I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality.
==============================================================================
Dzel -- Yeah, poor wites live in townships. There is a white township near Coronation park in Krugersdorp. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
Yes, you do not want other people to excel and bring their part in society, you are afraid of competition and to lazy to work your a.ss of to build your own company, you would rather fight for the position you have now and stagnate in it without any competition of youth getting experience.
Look, I am all for creating new business opportunities but this is more about keeping the accumulated benefit to yourself and not sharing the piece of cake with the rest of your countrymen. A friend who works in construction related to me how in one project a case was made that there are no competent black owned companies to bring on board. He would not take this as an excuse because 1. The job requirement was not that complicated, a person could even form a one-man show and complete the work require, and 2. This is an argument he had had before and it serves to maintain the status quo where you don’t develop the said businesses but giving them an opportunity to grow.
You are doing the same thing, slamming BEE in favour of a solution that maintains the racial monopoly in business and you want to sell that to me as acceptable. Did you seriously think I could be fooled that easily? Give me credit dude.
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- Yeah, poor wites live in townships. There is a white township near Coronation park in Krugersdorp.
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How many and what percent of the general population do they present?
All I expect from you is not to generalise to what people of any colour SA stand is for and what they want. I enjoy many of your debates, but I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality.
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Victim mentality, .... LOL. Show me exactly when did I play the victim and why the said statement is offensive?
Truth is we are being used by the DA, they sure have sold you their "non-racial" position haven't they.
I would much rather you address the points I make than you telling me I am playing the victim. Play the ball, not the man.
Look, I am all for creating new business opportunities but this is more about keeping the accumulated benefit to yourself and not sharing the piece of cake with the rest of your countrymen. A friend who works in construction related to me how in one project a case was made that there are no competent black owned companies to bring on board. He would not take this as an excuse because 1. The job requirement was not that complicated, a person could even form a one-man show and complete the work require, and 2. This is an argument he had had before and it serves to maintain the status quo where you don’t develop the said businesses but giving them an opportunity to grow.
---
Who's fault is it that there is not one black person that then made this one man show. The W.hites?
You are doing the same thing, slamming BEE in favour of a solution that maintains the racial monopoly in business and you want to sell that to me as acceptable. Did you seriously think I could be fooled that easily? Give me credit dude.
Maybe you must go and read my comments to the top, I am in favour of a better BEE.
Dzel -- "Look, I am all for creating new business opportunities but this is more about keeping the accumulated benefit to yourself and not sharing the piece of cake with the rest of your countrymen" -- Ja, like Khulubase and the Zuma family. Like Julius Malema...
You dont seem to understand how business works. I create a business to enrich myself. I provide jobs and I pay taxes. Its not my job to share the piece of cake from the money I have earned, from taking risks and making investments. If my employees dont like me, they can find another job. If my clients dont like me, they can find another business. And if you dont want my taxes and job opportunities, I can take my business to another country. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
Because of you are white ... duh!
lol, you really have an inferiority complex, and the real answer is, I will and can defend myself. ]
You are pathetic with your race card, grow up. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PGR,
1. Who's fault is it that there is not one black person that then made this one man show. The W.hites?
2. Maybe you must go and read my comments to the top, I am in favour of a better BEE.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. You are losing the plot, the point is not whose fault is it but rather what actions are required to change the status quo and what artificial barriers have been put up to prevent new entrants to the market.
2. A better BEE - you mean the one that is meant to maintain current business ownership demographics?
That is not empowerment, in its design it is affront to the very concept of empowerment.
Dzel -- "Truth is we are being used by the DA, they sure have sold you their "non-racial" position haven't they." - Jane, DA again. You wasted my time today. Where have all the intellectuals gone? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel - "A better BEE - you mean the one that is meant to maintain current business ownership demographics?" -- You think the current BEE is meant to uplift the majority of people? Its there to uplift a tiny batch of connected cadres who enrich each other via tenders.
I give up, unemployed South Africans are screwed. Even there black brothers (Dzel) is working against them. Black man you are on your own. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
Because of you are white ... duh!
lol, you really have an inferiority complex, and the real answer is, I will and can defend myself. ]
You are pathetic with your race card, grow up.
===============================================
When in doubt always use the super race card to avoid answering specifics. As stated apartheid was a system designed along racial lines, its intended beneficiaries were of a selected race and whose living standards far surpasses the living standards of the vast majority of citizens of this country., It follows then that any solution that seeks to reverse this impact has to be along racial lines.
Which part of the above statement do you have a problem with?
This should not be a debate about who this policy will benefit, but rather if it will benefit SA as a whole. In this case I believe all South Africans can benefit – and that should be our highest priority. Remember we are all connected, if you disadvantage one part of the population you potentially negatively affect others also. You fire the previously ADVANTAGED guy and now he needs to let the lady that works in his house and his gardener go. Make it impossible for someone to start their own business, you make it impossible for him/her to appoint other (and potentially previously disadvantaged) people. Does it mean we should not take extra care to uplift the previously disadvantaged?... no… but it means we need to be smart about it. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
1. You are losing the plot, the point is not whose fault is it but rather what actions are required to change the status quo and what artificial barriers have been put up to prevent new entrants to the market.
When I started my company I had a ball, because there was no challenges and no competition, ya, I have the first company of its kind in the world, how lucky am I. Sjoe, I have an monopoly that makes everyone mad because the whole world can only do my kind of business through me, this one man show.
------I was sarcastic about the above ------- in case you thin i am serious.
2. A better BEE - you mean the one that is meant to maintain current business ownership demographics?
WTF, do you just want current owner to give their hard work over to incompetent people who did not work for it? So that the company goes under and 1000's lose their jobs like your buddies did with Aurora, well done DZEL, that is a nice way of fighting unemployment.
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- "Truth is we are being used by the DA, they sure have sold you their "non-racial" position haven't they." - Jane, DA again. You wasted my time today. Where have all the intellectuals gone?
Well the DA must be doing something right because their voter base is increasing very fast and its not the wh!te constituency thats growing in numbers. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- 18 million employed people in south africal; 2.5 million employed white people and on top of that black people combined have more money than white people combined. Richest man in South Africa is not a white guy. What racial lines? Open your eyes to reality bru. Its all very nice there in your ANC lalaland but at some stage you need to wake up and face reality boeta. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
I give up, unemployed South Africans are screwed. Even there black brothers (Dzel) is working against them. Black man you are on your own.
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the attempt at emotional blackmail is noted but again if you re-read everything I have posted you will realise than like COSATU I caution against a system that has unintended but completely foreseeable outcomes.
How does does this equate to working against my black brothers?
When in doubt always use the super race card to avoid answering specifics. As stated apartheid was a system designed along racial lines, its intended beneficiaries were of a selected race and whose living standards far surpasses the living standards of the vast majority of citizens of this country., It follows then that any solution that seeks to reverse this impact has to be along racial lines.
Which part of the above statement do you have a problem with?
Apartheid is gone and lost, get over it, as I said earlier, look at the amount of w.hite people in SA and black people, you must compare apples with apples. Not your thumb sucks with the real world. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel
the attempt at emotional blackmail is noted but again if you re-read everything I have posted you will realise than like COSATU I caution against a system that has unintended but completely foreseeable outcomes.
How does does this equate to working against my black brothers?
We have asked you to go and read up on the system, it is working in SA already, it is working in the world, you are against the youth bettering themselves, if it is already working, why against it? Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel - "the attempt at emotional blackmail is noted" -- Ja maybe if I had an ETV camera on me and started crying it would have worked better hey.
"COSATU I caution against a system that has unintended but completely foreseeable outcomes."
You and COSATU dont know what you are talking about. Why would an employee replace a skilled worker for an unskilled one? There is a reason companies want experience. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
The-Rothschilds
Well the DA must be doing something right because their voter base is increasing very fast and its not the wh!te constituency thats growing in numbers.
================================================
...and this pisses me off to no end Rothschild, not because it is wrong for a black person to join the DA but when we do we are not assertive about what policies we want the DA to join.
At some point I was so pi'ed off I joined the DA - yes I have a membership card - but then one starts asking obvious question and you don't get satisfactory answers so I stated to raise this discussions amongst like minded people. You look at who Manqasane was treated for demanding the DA not pay lip service by fronting using Lindiwe they should instead look at their DNA i.e policy.
I couldn't care less about who rules SA so long as my interests are represented.
You and COSATU dont know what you are talking about. Why would an employee replace a skilled worker for an unskilled one? There is a reason companies want experience
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Its called reducing your costs, simple to understand when you understand how business operates.
the attempt at emotional blackmail is noted but again if you re-read everything I have posted you will realise than like COSATU I caution against a system that has unintended but completely foreseeable outcomes.
How does does this equate to working against my black brothers?
We have asked you to go and read up on the system, it is working in SA already, it is working in the world, you are against the youth bettering themselves, if it is already working, why against it?
==============================================================================
Dzel has a problem with the fact that the person "the youth" on the wage subsidy is working for a wh!te boss.
And he claims because of apartheid, the owner & boss happens to be wh!te. And it needs to change.
What he doesnt realize is that, WITH OR WITHOUT apartheid............these companies were started by individuals, not an entire race.
These individuals were clever enough to get to where they were on their own through wheeling and dealing and sharp business practices.
Apartheid helped wh!te people in many ways.............but it certainly did not guarantee anyone any success. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Black man, you are on your own, Dzel will rather you get social grants instead of working thanks to youth wage subsidies. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
xBusi
@Dzel
>I couldn't care less about who rules SA so long as my interests are represented.
I couldn't care less about who rules SA so long as South Africas interests are represented. See... we almost agree :) Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Dzel - "Its called reducing your costs, simple to understand when you understand how business operates."
Ja bru, if companies wanted to reduce costs they wouldnt hire anyone. Your comments are irrational and ill thought out. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1
Apartheid is gone and lost, get over it, as I said earlier, look at the amount of w.hite people in SA and black people, you must compare apples with apples. Not your thumb sucks with the real world.
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Really? Look around you PGR, apartheid might be gone as a policy but its impact will be with us for a long time to go and until we get to a point where we can say we have finally defeated apartheid we need every measure to redress the impact thereof.
Your problem is you look at the world window rose-tinted lenses, I suggest you spend a day in the township.
No, I don't mean go to Vilakazi street and then claim to know how black people live and what challenges they face. Go to the squatter, a Diepsloot for example and observe the level of poverty that is prevalent and then come back to me and tell me apartheid is long gone so I need to get over it.
Better yet, while there tell the people of Diepsloot that they need to get over themselves and get a life.
Question; do you think you would have had the same opportunities and achieved the same level of success had you been black? Where did you get your start-up capital from?
You and COSATU dont know what you are talking about. Why would an employee replace a skilled worker for an unskilled one? There is a reason companies want experience
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Its called reducing your costs, simple to understand when you understand how business operates.
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I dont understand your logic Dzel, how do you think a business grows? I needs to reduce costs and if there is a method that it can reduce costs with, it is bound to take it.
@DoubleStandards
Black man, you are on your own, Dzel will rather you get social grants instead of working thanks to youth wage subsidies.
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Now that is rac!st remark over there. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
The-Rothschilds
I dont understand your logic Dzel, how do you think a business grows? I needs to reduce costs and if there is a method that it can reduce costs with, it is bound to take it.
==========================================================
Agreed but you are ASSUMING the savings in the wage bill will be used to create new employment opportunities, I am saying prove to me it this is in fact the case and how.
In the end we agree on the solution the only difference is the approach to implementation.
It was just a tongue-in-cheek comment Dzel :) Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
DoubleStandards
Shredder -- "Now that is rac!st remark over there" -- Ja sure boeta. Clouds are racist too because they are white ne. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
DoubleStandards
Dzel - "Its called reducing your costs, simple to understand when you understand how business operates."
Ja bru, if companies wanted to reduce costs they wouldnt hire anyone. Your comments are irrational and ill thought out.
==================================================
Double standards please raise your game, without employment there is no business. I get tired of addressing pints that should be obvious to all of us.
Well the DA must be doing something right because their voter base is increasing very fast and its not the wh!te constituency thats growing in numbers.
================================================
...and this pisses me off to no end Rothschild, not because it is wrong for a black person to join the DA but when we do we are not assertive about what policies we want the DA to join.
At some point I was so pi'ed off I joined the DA - yes I have a membership card - but then one starts asking obvious question and you don't get satisfactory answers so I stated to raise this discussions amongst like minded people. You look at who Manqasane was treated for demanding the DA not pay lip service by fronting using Lindiwe they should instead look at their DNA i.e policy.
I couldn't care less about who rules SA so long as my interests are represented.
=============================================================================
people vote for DA because they are doing more for people on the ground than what the ANC is doing. They could not be bothered about a ex disgrunted ANC MP's opinion about Zille's choice. Its really not who is running the DA. Its to see what they are doing. Cape Town has been restored to its former international status under the DA, the city has never looked so good before. This is why they vote DA.
You are right, apartheid is strong and happening in SA with the few elite and tendepreneurs pushing the rest of S.A into poverty and unions costing jobs.
Have you been to makoko and mahush in mpumalanga, I am there just about everyday, looking at people being fired because of unions.
Do you think Oprah could accomplish the same if she was white,
Just for you info, not that it has anything to do with you, I had no start-up capital. I started with nothing, had a very low income job after i lost everything. a few years ago, had it all, big house and fancy cars, due to an a.sshole I lost everything and settled for a jokingly low salary. Report Abuse
Exactly bru, exactly. At least now I know how to get through to you. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Dzel
The-Rothschilds
I dont understand your logic Dzel, how do you think a business grows? I needs to reduce costs and if there is a method that it can reduce costs with, it is bound to take it.
==========================================================
Agreed but you are ASSUMING the savings in the wage bill will be used to create new employment opportunities, I am saying prove to me it this is in fact the case and how.
In the end we agree on the solution the only difference is the approach to implementation.
=============================================================================
Read the structure of the subsidy, it clearly states that only if NEW employment is created can a firm claim a tax rebate.
Noone said the subsidy is the end all of solutions to SA's problems, but its one solution for first time job finders to find skills. Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
xBusi
Cheers Dzel and everyone else... my BF is almost here so the weekend party must start :) Report Abuse
May 25, 2012
Dzel
Sorry to hear that PSG but I thought you said you run your own company.
Anyway I shouldn't pry, have a smashing weekend and the same goes to everyone else.
These greedy bastards want to cash-in. Obviously since they breakaway from BUSA,which happen to be lily white, they know these will favor them,with measures of score cards in place they will chow that 5 Biiilllliooonnn. Report Abuse
May 26, 2012
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel, that is correct, and from that I started my new company, settled for a very low salary but worked myself out of it again. Report Abuse
May 27, 2012
Revulshionary
Dzel...
Nor you, nor COSATU nor any of your children HAVE to accept any kind of subsidy...
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Comments
Mbeva
Let them give it a try,before some dicy political party claims it is their ideaReport Abuse
dimpho_4U
all talk and no action..lets wait and see..if these subsidies will benefit the youth,or won't end being another exploitation,_________anyways bright ideaReport Abuse
Mananga
Brilliant idea if its going to benefit youth!!!!!!!!!!!Report Abuse
queenzo
i like i likeReport Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
Wow you people sure have very selective memories and ra cist views. Isnt this what the DA took to the street for and were attacked by the law less Cosatu? But now that a bl ack man says the same thing it is a good idea. Fukkk you ppl are patheticReport Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
Implement it and get it over with, cosatu with their negative stance in holding the country and the youth back..Report Abuse
Dzel
Of course business would support the wage subsidy, it benefits them. This is how each party benefits and why some are against when some are for:1. The ANC – by creating this subsidy they are hoping to quell youths who have increasingly becoming involved in service delivery protest often complaining of a lack of jobs in their communities. The ANC wants to be seen to tackle the problem and they hope more youths will b employed through the initiative.
2. The DA – if they are seen to be championing the cause then that is political mileage for them and they hope to raise their profile amongst young black voters. It is very difficult for the DA to get votes amongst older voters who experienced the pain of being ruled by a white man. Younger voters are less attached to our past and there less likely to use race as a determining factor when voting.
3. BUSA / BBC – the subsidy means money from government to help reduce costs. If government funds a portion of the wage bill than cost to income ratio improves significantly. Given the absence of stipulation that requires that the cost be used for new jobs only they can simply employ younger workers to replace older ones so in the end all you achieve is changing the demographics of workers without creating new jobs.
In this whole debate one feels like COSATU is the only party that is engaging honestly, all the other parties have a vested interest and are pushing for implementation. The wage subsidy is a good idea in principle but the devil lies in the implementation thereof, how the system is managed is of paramount importance otherwise this has the potential of being an exercise in futility with business the only winners.
.
Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
DzelAs usual you forget to mention the part about Cosatu missing out on the fees the youth would pay had they been employed otherwise. How about looking at the DA doing their job and championing for the people. They are doing it for the YOUTH. Not the bla ck youth not the w hite youth not the co loured youth or even the in dian youth BUT the YOUTH!!!
Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
DZEL, you BUSA /BBC is completely flawed, remember this subsidy will work for 6 months per time per person, the older people in business are needed as they are the ones to teach the young ones, any business that get rid of the experienced people will be stupid and there is a law that says you cannot just fire someone without cause and replace them.This program has been done and tested all over the word with great results, it is currently running in the W.C already on a smaller scale with great success.
Report Abuse
dimpho_4U
@DA-DBN-GUY,yes,yes the YOUTH in general .no segregation nor discrimination irrespective :the DA or ANC bla ck,white or Indian etcReport Abuse
tokolosi
huhhh....how is this different to Nationalisation now, really? if I run a business, I can hire extra people who's wages are partly paid by the taxpayers - but I dont have to share the profits with taxpayers.....so everyone gets a hand-out in South Africa hehReport Abuse
MommaC
DzelCosatu does have a vested interest. Subs.
Cosatu does nothing that won't financially benefit them.
Interesting survey that put 70% of the youth in favour of this. Makes you wonder why they are not being listened to over and above the political posturing. It affects them the most so they should at least get a say in the matter
Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
Tokolosi, The companies who does this will get a better monthly output and create more taxes, the person will still be taxed on his salary, he will have a salary to buy stuff which is taxed.Which do you think is better, this or the hand outs that our government is giving?
Report Abuse
DoubleStandards
tokolosi -- But then isnt social gratns nationalisation?Report Abuse
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUYAs usual you forget to mention the part about Cosatu missing out on the fees the youth would pay had they been employed otherwise. How about looking at the DA doing their job and championing for the people.
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1. You work on a simplistic assumption that the youth in question will not be members of COSATU and workers laid off will be COSATU members.
What do you base this assumption on, it seems unreasonable to me.
2. The DA did not do anything; they want to claim credit when the spade work has been done already. Theirs is an opportunistic struggle for black votes and support their real constituency, SA’s business sector.
Report Abuse
Dzel
MommaCDzel
Cosatu does have a vested interest. Subs.
Cosatu does nothing that won't financially benefit them.
Interesting survey that put 70% of the youth in favour of this. Makes you wonder why they are not being listened to over and above the political posturing. It affects them the most so they should at least get a say in the matter
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You need to prove this subs theory or at least explain it so it makes sense.
Yes the youth will want the initiative but the objective should be larger than which demographic of workers stand to benefit and look for solutions that benefits everyone and does not unjustly penalise workers who are too old to allow the employer to derive benefit from the scheme.
I repeat; I am against a system or policy whose impact will be older employers losing jobs so they can make space for younger workers. The impact is social where breadwinners will be sacked, who will support their families that is why we need to be very careful about how we implement such schemes.
Report Abuse
tokolosi
ehhh - R60K or less earners dont pay tax - so how is the wage subsidy going to boost revenue coffers? any tax on additional income ontop of R60k is absolutely meaningless compared to the subsidy paid out - how on earth can a subsidy improve quality - what is stopping quality improvement now? as for increase in buying power through a grant, it is nationalisation (simply put: govt is driving the demand for goods through usage of taxes - but that doesnt mean the supply will automatically increase) - inflation my actually increasesocial grant - DoubleStandards is an incentive for not to be productive but rely on the state for life to take care of you
Report Abuse
MommaC
DzelYounger people are less likely to join a union.
Now how are they going to fire older employees? Our labour laws won't allow you to fire someone even if you have justification for doing so. I very much doubt that they would get away with it. There is also the question of experience. No business man worth his salary would employ a trainee to do an experienced job. That is just asking for trouble.
Report Abuse
DoubleStandards
tokolosi -- The subsidy isnt about taxes or boosting revenue coffers, its about giving youths skills.Report Abuse
Dzel
MommaCYounger people are less likely to join a union.
Now how are they going to fire older employees? Our labour laws won't allow you to fire someone even if you have justification for doing so. I very much doubt that they would get away with it.
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Younger workers tend to earn lower wages which puts them firmly in union membership demographics. They tend to be more troublesome hence they need the union's protection more. Unfortunately I can't share the demographics I have access to but trust me on this one.
The answer to your second question is natural attrition. When an older employee resigns, dies or is promoted you replace them with a younger one, simple. Overtime your demographics change as well.
Report Abuse
Lehido
I say it must be implemented with conditions attached to it@Dzel - I agree with you 100%
Report Abuse
Ngqondongqondo
It is very wrong to block initiatives that are bound to solve problems. People should come up with suggestions to help alleviate their fears instead of only criticizing. For example a risk assessment exercise must officially be engaged as a way of putting measures in place to deal with foreseeable possible problems. Nothing becomes perfect from the beggining. There will be teething problems and trial and error along the way. But a good management of risk will circumvent a lot of possible teething problems.Report Abuse
skhokho21
Plzgetreal1, Where in the WC is this policy active? The president has n`t sign this into law so are people operating the WC outside the laws of the country`s constitution or are you trying to make your DA run WC to look good with propaganda as usual.DA-DBN-GUY, You & your DA are so desperate for glory, this is an ANC policy but you hijacked it for reasons Dzel mentioned.
Report Abuse
DoubleStandards
skhokho21 -- I think the bigger question is, who is so anti DA that they would deny the opposition party any credit?Report Abuse
DoubleStandards
I wonder what the unemployed youths care more about. Zumas painting, or a chance at upskilling and employment.Report Abuse
tokolosi
no problem solved by this subsidy - but just increasing the number of people that will be totally dependant on the state for survival (including firms)....how will I ever make losses as a business person...NEVER: when times are tough, retrench and keep the govt-sponsored employees and recover (hey someone is going to share my losses now)....DoubleStandards - revenue coffers of whom exactly? cause this is just redistributing the already existing income to even those that dont have a chance in hell of making anything out of their lives....Simply put: this is a way of making RSA a socialist country quicker...soon all of us will be getting govt grants and no need to work hard really
@NgqondoX2 - risk assessment - heheee, mncim, dreams....
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DA-DBN-GUY
skhokho21Dude please!!! If it is an anc policy why hasd it not been implemented anywhere in the country that is run by the anc even on a trial basis and only in the WC that is run by the DA. You are so color conscious taht you cant see who the real implementors are! Time you ditched the black, yello, red and green for colors that truly work for the people.
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Dzel
NgqondongqondoIt is very wrong to block initiatives that are bound to solve problems. People should come up with suggestions to help alleviate their fears instead of only criticizing.
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What the DA does not tell you is the youth wage subsidy is being discuss at NEDLAC; the ANC, DA and COSATU are all represented in this forum and if the DA was genuine in their motivation they would apply pressure in these session instead of political grandstanding in the form of a self-serving march.
COSATU has never objected to the subsidy, like me they are very caution about the implementation thereof and want to prevent a situation where government subsidies costs incurred in the private sector when they have no direct stake in or a direct share of the profits derived.
You and many people have been misled by the DA who have twisted facts to suit their agenda.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- Grandstanding marches? But thats how you do things in South Africa.Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
skhokho21http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=172267
Your r.acism is hectic dude, get over you colour problem,
Report Abuse
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUYDude please!!! If it is an anc policy why hasd it not been implemented anywhere in the country that is run by the anc even on a trial basis and only in the WC that is run by the DA.
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You need to be very careful of ill-information and insisting on a point when clearly you are oblivious to facts.
The wage subsidy is ANC policy still under review but remains ANC policy nonetheless. The ANC government has pledged and approved R 5bn towards the project. The DA's borrowed mini-version amounts to a mere R 9m per year.
The DA has jumped the gun and is running trial because in its current form the model is pro-business and does not place checks and balances that are necessary to make it a real success and new jobs are actually created instead of recycled jobs.
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DoubleStandards
tokolosi -- But the youths uplifted by the subsidy wount be reliant on government over the period of their employment. Thereafter they have a foot in the door and they can seek sustainable employment.Do you know what the difference is between social grants and youth subsidy? The one you give to a person to learn new skills, the other one you give to a person for doing nothing.
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DA-DBN-GUY
DzelPlease we all know that no matter what the DA propose or try to implement the anc and cosatu, with sheer numbers not counter arguments or proposals, block them when it is put to a vote. Do you frget so quickly that the DA were trying to apply a bit of pressure during their legal march. But you guessed it were hijacked and attacked by the cosatu mafia's goons, ILLEGALLY too mind you! YOU GET MISLED BY THE ANC AND COSATU DAILY WITH TWISTED FACTS AND RACIAL SLURRS.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel -- Grandstanding marches? But thats how you do things in South Africa.
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No, a march is supposed to draw attention to the issues, grandstanding is when the march is designed to draw attention to the organisation leading the march. The DA's march is about as self-serving as Malema's march for "economic freedom".
The DA is playing to the black section of the political gallery.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- No Im sorry, you are not speaking truthfully. Moeletsi Mbeki said yesterday or the day before that the ANC is deindustrialising South Africa. You are saying "pro-business" as if it is a bad thing. Maybe all the socialists should stop complaining about unemployment because they are anti-business. We need more businesses, we need more skills. What we do need less of is unions.Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
DzelSo if its anc policy why are they dragging their heels to implement? If the DA are already doing it in the WC ,no matter the scale, who are the implementors?
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cornelius
Dzel, your logic is flawed. According to you, any person or party that proposes something positve is being dishonest, because by makin the proposal, they are improving their public profile.You also failed to the most important party/group, and the bnefit to them, nl the youth, whose continued unemployment, every commentastor agrees, is a ticking time bomb int he country.
Yes the parties are represented at Nedlac. It is precisely there where COSATU has consistently been the stumbling block. How do you " apply pressure in these sessions" as you say the DA should do ? The government has been shrugging itas shoulder and saying they cannot implement it without COSATU's buy in
What is wrong with applying the pressure through a legal, peaceful march ? Do you tell COSATU never to march, but rather to " apply pressure in the sessions" ?
You are not objective in the least, simply joining the bandwagon of criticising the DA for everything they do, good or bad.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- "No, a march is supposed to draw attention to the issues, grandstanding is when the march is designed to draw attention to the organisation leading the march. The DA's march is about as self-serving as Malema's march for "economic freedom"."Thats how you see it, Im afraid plenty of other people see it the other way. Please dont quote your opinions as facts.
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Ngqondongqondo
@DzelI am quite aware about Nedlac. What I am saying is that those people who are representing the different sectors of the community must always agree to do a risk assessment which will help as far as progress is concerned instead of throwing abuses to one another in the public domain to score political points. We need prudent people to honestly represent our interests for this country to really make a headway regarding solutions to our problems.
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PleaseGetReal1
DZEL - You have been misled by COSATU's lies, they are straight against this youth wage subsidy because people would be on a temp basis and what does it help if you are on a temp basis and belong to a Union, you can't strike etc. when the union wants you to so why pay the membership.It is all about money for COSATU, that is it.
Report Abuse
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUYPlease we all know that no matter what the DA propose or try to implement the anc and cosatu, with sheer numbers not counter arguments or proposals, block them when it is put to a vote. Do you frget so quickly that the DA were trying to apply a bit of pressure during their legal march. But you guessed it were hijacked and attacked by the cosatu mafia's goons, ILLEGALLY too mind you! YOU GET MISLED BY THE ANC AND COSATU DAILY WITH TWISTED FACTS AND RACIAL SLURRS.
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Your problem is you know so little and yet you are so insistent even indignant in your responses.
Do your research then we can continue this discussion when you are better informed.
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DoubleStandards
Ngqondongqondo -- Ja and not stone throwers depicting our national policies.Report Abuse
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- But what research did you do? You only read the COSATU headlines where they said that the subsidy will displace older workers.Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
DzelSo many people against what you say. Maybe tis you that needs more research. when you done you know where to find me
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PleaseGetReal1
skhokho21Forgot to add, the W.C is leading by example.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsNo Im sorry, you are not speaking truthfully. Moeletsi Mbeki said yesterday or the day before that the ANC is deindustrialising South Africa. You are saying "pro-business" as if it is a bad thing. Maybe all the socialists should stop complaining about unemployment because they are anti-business. We need more businesses, we need more skills. What we do need less of is unions.
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See the problem is we are fed the lie that for business to thrive then the success has to be built on the exploitation of labour, this misconception needs to be addressed. We come from a past where a section of our society was viewed as nothing more than mules to be exploited by business or people of another race.
As a consequence you can see the impact of that in our socio-economic landscape. You are advocating for our people to be kept in the doldrums so business can thrive and by extension those who own the means to capital who happen to be white in the main. There has to be a healthy balance between cost, safety, profit and a sound business environment, you cannot and should not advocate for policies that deliberately seeks to keep our in a state of perpetual poverty.
BTW when did I preset opinion as fact?
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Dzel
corneliusDzel, your logic is flawed. According to you, any person or party that proposes something positve is being dishonest, because by makin the proposal, they are improving their public profile.
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no, any party that claims to be a champion of a policy they have high-jacked is being dishonest, big difference cornelius.
Secondly COSATU is not a stumbling block at Nedlac, their are saying parties need to explore options so at the end of the day the most logical solution is implemented complete with relevant checks and balances; what is wrong with this approach?
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- But being pro-business does not necesarily mean exploitation of labour. Thats like saying unions are purely associated with stone throwing.You cant bring up apartheid to justify your anti-business stance. We have millions of unemployed people in South Africa. If you are anti-business, it means you are not giving any suggestions to uplift them.
"you cannot and should not advocate for policies that deliberately seeks to keep our in a state of perpetual poverty."
But you are missing the point of the subsidy. Its to give people skills. So that you can write that "1 year experience" on your CV. Giving people welfare grants is how you keep them in perpetuat poverty. But giving people work to do, a small salary and experience, thats how you lift someone out of poverty.
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Dzel
NgqondongqondoI am quite aware about Nedlac. What I am saying is that those people who are representing the different sectors of the community must always agree to do a risk assessment which will help as far as progress is concerned instead of throwing abuses to one another in the public domain to score political points.
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Agree with you a 100%, but you also need to look at the chronology of the escalation in hostilities between Vavi and Zille from the time Vavi claimed there was an attempt to recruit him into the DA to the march itself. I saw a distinct attempt by one party to demonize the other and perhaps hijack labour issues for whatever purposes.
Check the chronology and tell me if you don't see a pattern.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- Pattern? You can see patterns in everything. Doesnt mean that its real. I wonder how the DA went from recruiting Vavi to marching to COSATU offices. You see what your problem is? You are saying any policy brought up the opposition party is bad, even if it carried merit. This isnt logical thinking. Its called cutting off your nose to spite your face.Report Abuse
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- You could have just argued on the pros and cons of the youth wage subsidy but instead you had to smear the opposition party. Thats how I can see your claims here are not genuine.Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
DZELWe come from a past where a section of our society was viewed as nothing more than mules to be exploited by business or people of another race.
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Please 18 years into democracy and this is getting old, there will always be poverty in a country where the people
people fornicate like rabbits and have no income, THE COUNTRY CANT CATCH UP TO THIS.
the elite only look after themselves
Nepotism
corruption
It is time the people start to look after themselves, hence the DA is pushing for this program, so that they can do something with their lives.
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As a consequence you can see the impact of that in our socio-economic landscape. You are advocating for our people to be kept in the doldrums so business can thrive and by extension those who own the means to capital who happen to be white in the main. There has to be a healthy balance between cost, safety, profit and a sound business environment, you cannot and should not advocate for policies that deliberately seeks to keep our in a state of perpetual poverty.
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This program will train youth in positions and can escalate to these youth starting their own businesses, whether it is black or white youth.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1You have been misled by COSATU's lies, they are straight against this youth wage subsidy because people would be on a temp basis and what does it help if you are on a temp basis and belong to a Union, you can't strike etc. when the union wants you to so why pay the membership.
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You know the irony is we debated the youth subsidy here on this before I even read COSATU’s position and reasoning on the matter and I was struck by how almost identical my reasoning was to COSATUs. You can have a look at the debate in question and compare the logic if you don’t believe me.
I am an independent thinker PGR, I analyse a situation and formulate an independent opinion. While not susceptible to influence but often that is after I had thought about the subject matter and formulated my own opinion. One thing I have in common with Cosatu is concern for black people and fighting for our rights both as citizens and as works.
Report Abuse
Dzel
works= workersReport Abuse
DoubleStandards
Dzel -- Sorry broer, today I dont believe you are an independant thinker. Today I believe your opinion is formed by your hate for the opposition party.Report Abuse
Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel -- Pattern? You can see patterns in everything. Doesnt mean that its real. I wonder how the DA went from recruiting Vavi to marching to COSATU offices. You see what your problem is? You are saying any policy brought up the opposition party is bad, even if it carried merit. This isnt logical thinking. Its called cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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That’s not true, I will credit the DA when they come up with policies that make sense and are worthy of praise.
Yesterday I was debating e-tolling with friends and when they tried defending Zuma by arguing he is not responsible for decisions to implement the system I mentioned that I admire Zille because when she sees a project that does not hesitate to stop it dead in its tracks until she understands pertinent facts. That is an admirable quality and I give her credit for that.
My opinions are non-partisan DS; I judge based on merit, my reflection on the matter and the desired outcome.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- I dont see the point in debating if your mind is already made up. Good day sir.Report Abuse
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUYDzel
So many people against what you say. Maybe tis you that needs more research. when you done you know where to find me
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Errr.. sir ... the truth in a debate is not necessary relative to the number of people who support it.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsYou could have just argued on the pros and cons of the youth wage subsidy but instead you had to smear the opposition party. Thats how I can see your claims here are not genuine.
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Because the DA seems to thins black people are idiots and wants to treat us as such.
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PleaseGetReal1
I am an independent thinker PGR, I analyse a situation and formulate an independent opinion. While not susceptible to influence but often that is after I had thought about the subject matter and formulated my own opinion. One thing I have in common with Cosatu is concern for black people and fighting for our rights both as citizens and as works.It is sad that Cosatu is only fighting for black people, we are a country of many races and all should be equal, but that is just my opinion, when this came around I also went to read up on it, go and google about Canada, use the Canada google and search for their pages and see how highly this program is accepted there. there is other countries as well, just got the most info from the canadian websites.
So, I like to formulate my own opinion, after I went to investigate, I don't just make up my mind and say that is fact, research go's a long way, My one dear friend once told me "If you can read, you can send a man to the moon"
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelBecause the DA seems to thins black people are idiots and wants to treat us as such
Please give us some proof? The DA is fighting for this program to empower black people as well, why the blinkers?
Report Abuse
Dzel
DoubleStandardsYou cant bring up apartheid to justify your anti-business stance. We have millions of unemployed people in South Africa. If you are anti-business, it means you are not giving any suggestions to uplift them.
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I am bringing up a historical context that has influenced how labour is structure, how some races are more affluent than others and WHY should should reject policies that are meant to preserve the status quo.
The key word in the second part of your response is the "small salary" bit, whats wrong with paying a fair and decent wage?
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- We all start out with small salaries. Your first year of employment is not about how much money you earn, its about experience.Report Abuse
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1Please give us some proof? The DA is fighting for this program to empower black people as well, why the blinkers?
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How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?
Please list and elaborate on these "program to empower black people"; this should be fun.
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PleaseGetReal1
DoubleStandardsDzel -- We all start out with small salaries. Your first year of employment is not about how much money you earn, its about experience.
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My first pay check in 1996 was a mere R600.00.
Then what are you going to do with that experience, will you let it grow into your own multi million business or sit and stagnate in what you have learnt.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1This program will train youth in positions and can escalate to these youth starting their own businesses, whether it is black or white youth.
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That is a bit of a stretch, what kind of training will transform someone from a directionless unemployed youth to a budding entrepreneur in a space of six months?
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- "How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?" - Maybe because they knew there was going to be violence?Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
DzelHow many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?
Please list and elaborate on these "program to empower black people"; this should be fun.
I did see some of them getting hit with rocks, dude, is it only black people who needs empowerment, what about the w.hites, what about the Indians and the coulourds . They are planning to create 423 000 jobs, are you implying this will be for white kids only?
Let the blinkers go!
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1It is sad that Cosatu is only fighting for black people, we are a country of many races and all should be equal, but that is just my opinion, when this came around I also went to read up on it, go and google about Canada, use the Canada google and search for their pages and see how highly this program is accepted there. there is other countries as well, just got the most info from the canadian websites.
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Don’t stop there, please draw parallels between our labour markets and Canada....
Do we have the same kind of economy, same employment rates, same demographics or skills in the labour market for example?
Don’t just cite a country and think you’ve made a case, when you cite an example you need to show me parallels to convince me that this is in fact a model that worked in a context similar to our otherwise the comparison is meaningless.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel -- We all start out with small salaries. Your first year of employment is not about how much money you earn, its about experience.
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Nice come back but I think we both know what you meant, if you didn’t I apologise.
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Ngqondongqondo
@DzelI don't rally care about individuals' emotional spats. I'm talking principle here. All I'm saying is that our leaders must grow up and learn to rise above emotions and concentrate on principles. Concentrating on emotions is a sign of immaturity like a child throwing tantrums.
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cornelius
@Dzel, come on really. The subsidy will benefit all youth, more so b.lack youth, because of AA policies. So the march is supported by mostly b.lack youth. Yet you say, somehow, you cannot see that the DA is supprting b.lack youth tthroughtheir vigorous support for the subsidy ? Ag no man, there is none so blind as those who do not want to see. By the way, the DA has implemented a youth subsidy inthe WC with the funds that it has.Report Abuse
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1My first pay check in 1996 was a mere R600.00.
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In what context?
My first salary was R 250,00 but I was a part time receptionist at our varsity res. I can't use this fact in a debate about full-time employment since the context is not the same.
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Dzel
0 comments, no Sowetan. That was an important debate you've just deleted.Report Abuse
Dzel
Oh the comments are back, good.Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
DzelDon’t stop there, please draw parallels between our labour markets and Canada....
I did not say just Canada did I, also, the youth wage subsidy is for young people seeking experience, does not matter whether you are a snow plowman in Canada or a tiller in SA, that is not what it is about, it is about getting the youth experience and into jobs, Getit,
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Do we have the same kind of economy, same employment rates, same demographics or skills in the labour market for example?
No we don't theirs is a success because they and other 1st world countries is running the program. it does not matter about the economy as long as it can be afforded. Now you ask me about employment rates, Why the F^*k do you think they implemented it?
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Don’t just cite a country and think you’ve made a case, when you cite an example you need to show me parallels to convince me that this is in fact a model that worked in a context similar to our otherwise the comparison is meaningless.
Just do yourself a favour, I sat for about 2 hours to read about the successes about these programs all over the world, not just Canada, as I said, Canada websites gave me the most information. I can't put 2 hours reading in 10 lines,
If you are so sure of your side of the story, go and read up on what it can do.
Report Abuse
Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel -- "How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?" - Maybe because they knew there was going to be violence?
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Oh maybe because the target market was young black kids whom is incidentally is a known demographic the DA is targeting, the target was to day look at the DA we care for you. This from the same party that opposes AA, BEE, minimum wage and is in favour of casual labour and labour brokers.
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PleaseGetReal1
Just do yourself a favour, I sat for about 2 hours to read about the successes about these programs all over the world, not just Canada, as I said, Canada websites gave me the most information. I can't put 2 hours reading in 10 lines,----------------------------------------------------
Also, it is already working successful in the W.C
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Dzel
NgqondongqondoI don't rally care about individuals' emotional spats. I'm talking principle here. All I'm saying is that our leaders must grow up and learn to rise above emotions and concentrate on principles. Concentrating on emotions is a sign of immaturity like a child throwing tantrums.
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But politics are by design driven by vested interest; principle is a plus but never a guarantee.
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Dzel
cornelius@Dzel, come on really. The subsidy will benefit all youth, more so b.lack youth, because of AA policies. So the march is supported by mostly b.lack youth. Yet you say, somehow, you cannot see that the DA is supprting b.lack youth tthroughtheir vigorous support for the subsidy ?
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You somehow managed to confuse my points so much so you now have me confused :-)
The point I am making is the march was stage managed to attract young black voters to the DA, who actually benefits from the subsidy is another matter completely.
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MommaC
DzelI presume you have never owned a business?
Young workers are not a preferential employment sector for a number of reasons that aren't going to change just because of a work subsidy. There is a very good reason that older people find it easier to find a job. Reliability, stability, experience, and much more come to the party and they are worth more than a year or two worth of subsidy could ever compensate for
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Manala
@DzelYou know the irony is we debated the youth subsidy here on this before I even read COSATU’s position and reasoning on the matter and I was struck by how almost identical my reasoning was to COSATUs.
I am an independent thinker PGR, I analyse a situation and formulate an independent opinion. While not susceptible to influence but often that is after I had thought about the subject matter and formulated my own opinion. One thing I have in common with Cosatu is concern for black people and fighting for our rights both as citizens and as works.
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It seems you are an independant thinker as long as it is in line with what Cosatu tells you to think.
We all know Cosatu feels F&^kall for the citizens of this country. Their only concern is for their members and how to grow membership so the fat cats at the top can justify their six figure salaries.
Cosatu and the Labour Act as it stands today are the two major stumbling blocks in creating jobs in this country.
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelThis from the same party that opposes AA, BEE, minimum wage and is in favour of casual labour and labour brokers.
This part just shows me how uninformed you really are about the DA, you obviously make your opinions in your head before you go and do some research which just now showed that it is u.seless trying to debate with you. You use the f.iction in your head as fact, you make me think of jajaqueen, exactly the same.
They do have their implementation on p.reviously d.isadvantaged people, go to the w.ebsite and read up on it please, you are making a fool of yourself.
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DA-DBN-GUY
DzelPleaseGetReal1
Please give us some proof? The DA is fighting for this program to empower black people as well, why the blinkers?
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How many young white and unemployed people did you see at the march, why do you think there was a blatant skew in terms of representitvity?
Please list and elaborate on these "program to empower black people"; this should be fun
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BEE. AA are two policies that aim to empower black people but as is normally the case with the anc it was corrupted and perverted to only enrich the cronies and elitists of the anc. The reason, in my opinion, why the anc hasnt implemented the youth subsidy, eventhough they have set a budget aside, is because they are still looking for a crony that hasnt benefitted from our tax money.
White people in general appreciate their jobs, as AA and BEE dont allow for us to get jobs that easily anymore, so wont just leave work for illegal strikes and protests. the white youth are also part of the unemployed but either find a way to study to further themselves or take whatever jobs they can and then improve themselves. they dont rely on a youth league to promise them minerals and unworked for riches or management positions because of some misguided entitlement chip they carry.
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Dzel
MommaC,Whether I have owned a business or not is not the point. You are right about older older workers being more reliable though but consider the following illustration.
Scenario 1: you have a choice of hiring young workers and you pay 90% of their salary with a total cost of say R 27,000 p.m. across 10 jobswith government paying the remaining 10% with no additional claim to profits.
Scenario 2: you are completely staffed by older workers at a total cost of R 30,000 to the company (100% of the wage bill).
As a business person which of the two scenarios would you choose?
I would go for scenario 1 and be very stringent in my selection criteria.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1This part just shows me how uninformed you really are about the DA, you obviously make your opinions in your head before you go and do some research which just now showed that it is u.seless trying to debate with you. You use the f.iction in your head as fact, you make me think of jajaqueen, exactly the same.
They do have their implementation on p.reviously d.isadvantaged people, go to the w.ebsite and read up on it please, you are making a fool of yourself.
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Please inform me then, don't refer to policy or their webs.ite. Make you case and I will engage with you.
For your information I have debated these policies on this forum a number of times. The chronology is always the same; accusations of ignorance, reference to the si.te and then I state my case and support it with supporting material, followed by obfuscation and then silence by DA supporters.
Give it a shot PRG, I dare you. Show me what the DA says about the stated policies and we can debate them. Don't tell me I am ignorant simply because you want to appear like you know what you are talking about.
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MommaC
DzelIt actually is a point.
Training a worker takes an awful lot of time and money. You essentially have two people doing the same job. Young people have a terrible tenancy to jobhop. That means that you are almost constantly training someone - i.e. paying twice for one position. Then you have to take into consideration the reputation of your company. It costs almost 10x the amount to get a new client as what it does to keep an existing one. Existing clients only put up with so many errors prior to changing to a different supplier. The danger of that happening because you have inexperienced and unreliable staff is too great a chance to take.
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Shredder
@Dzel - Because the DA seems to thinks black people are idiots and wants to treat us as such.=========================================================================
You deserve for this one Dzel. LOL
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Ngqondongqondo
@DzelThe chairperson at Nedlac should have steered the engagements away from being dominated by emotions to being centred around principles.
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Shredder
Shredder@Dzel - Because the DA seems to thinks black people are idiots and wants to treat us as such.
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You deserve a Bells for this one Dzel. LOL
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Dzel
MommaC,It appears we have moved away from the topic, lets backtrack a little. We need to make one thing clear, the wage subsidy at least as I understand it is purely to subsidize salary.
What does training have to do with this and we are now disusing behavioral patterns?
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Dzel
ManalaIt seems you are an independant thinker as long as it is in line with what Cosatu tells you to think.
We all know Cosatu feels F&^kall for the citizens of this country. Their only concern is for their members and how to grow membership so the fat cats at the top can justify their six figure salaries.
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Of course membership is the bottom line for any union but it would be difficult to argue the fight against e-tolling was motivated by membership and membership alone. Besides slating Cosatu what do you have to add to this debate?
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Dzel
Ngqondongqondo@Dzel
The chairperson at Nedlac should have steered the engagements away from being dominated by emotions to being centred around principles.
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Agreed.
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelGive it a shot PRG, I dare you. Show me what the DA says about the stated policies and we can debate them. Don't tell me I am ignorant simply because you want to appear like you know what you are talking about.
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Sorry, I run my own company and between work I quickly comment on some subjects, I was also brought up to find things out for myself and it worked for me, I was not spoon fed, the websites and links I referred to I read myself, hence I can see I know more about the subject, I a not thumb sucking like you do, at least I have references, go out and read about them instead of making statements you know nothing about, you will notice I am not lying.
on my way to a meeting, enjoy,
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Shredder
Ja nee. Some people like to throw names calling when debating. I don't know if name calling and insulting is what makes one think s(he) is putting facts across or what.Report Abuse
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1Sorry, I run my own company and between work I quickly comment on some subjects, I was also brought up to find things out for myself and it worked for me, I was not spoon fed, the websites and links I referred to I read myself, hence I can see I know more about the subject, I a not thumb sucking like you do, at least I have references, go out and read about them instead of making statements you know nothing about, you will notice I am not lying.
on my way to a meeting, enjoy,
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PGR, you miss the point. I know DA policy inside out so referring me to a site that contains content I am already familiar with but which you have presented in a manner that is disingenuous does not mean you are right.
The statement I posted on AA, BEE, casual labour, labour brokers is true, you can't refer me to a sit.e and then pretend you've made a point, you haven't. i don't need you to spoon feed me, I need you to put together a coherent argument that disproves my claim. Hiding behind how busy you are is as transparent ads Malema claiming to be an economic messiah of sorts..
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DoubleStandards
Dzel - "Oh maybe because the target market was young black kids whom is incidentally is a known demographic the DA is targeting, the target was to day look at the DA we care for you. This from the same party that opposes AA, BEE, minimum wage and is in favour of casual labour and labour brokers."I just looked through the DA's policies and no where do I see them being against AA and BEE. They are actually in favour of it. If you are telling us blatant lies that was easily researched why should I believe any of your debate?
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DoubleStandards
Dzel - The irony is no matter which way the debate ways you keep on attacking the DA. Your true intentions are showing.Report Abuse
Ngqondongqondo
@DzelThanks for a good debate you've been the pioneer.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel - The article is about the black business council, supporting the wage subsidy, yet you find every opportunity to attack the DA. You have ulterior motives here, your debate isnt steared by logic, but by your bias.Again, I cant debate with you if you are not debating from a point of logic, but from a point of predetermined prejudice.
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MommaC
DzelThe subsidy is a short term payment for young, inexperienced people. That is why the training and behavioural patterns relate.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsI just looked through the DA's policies and no where do I see them being against AA and BEE. They are actually in favour of it. If you are telling us blatant lies that was easily researched why should I believe any of your debate?
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read the policy closer then you will see they advocate for a "need based" AA and on BEE they advocate we move away from rewarding ownership and concentrate on training instead.
Now if you understand the principles and objects of AA and BEE then you will realise that their policies pay lip-service to both policies and is afront to the origional objectives of these policies.
I am not telling lies about the DA, I am just able to read between the lines and get to the crux of the matter, comprehension over reading at faced value.
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PleaseGetReal1
Ok Dzel, this is the last time I am going to spoon feed you, you are like a teenager who thinks he is always right, no wonder the anc calls their ilk youth until the age of 35.So you say the DA is against BEE and AA, the DA are against the current BEE policy as it only allows the few elite that makes their money from tenders, if you have BEE status you get tenders and most of these are anyway done by another 3rd party (contractor, the DA wants a review on BEE so that it is not calculated at ownership but on skills development. Skills development will empower the people and not just the few elite and the corrupt ways that makes a few people rich.
What I will do for you now is copy and paste from the DA’s economic policy, please go and read it at:
http://da.org.za/docs/10309/Economic%20policy.pdf
It will give you more information as to what I remember from it,
Thank you,
2.4) Broad-Based Economic Empowerment (BBEE)
BBEE is an economic and moral imperative for South Africa. If correctly
implemented, not only will it redress the imbalances of the past but it will pull more
people into the economy, stimulate competition, improve our skills and productivity,
raise our domestic investment levels, reduce poverty, increase employment and
broaden our tax base.
The DA believes that BBEE interventions as currently constituted have created
significant distortions in the economy that are not conducive to economic growth.
Although it has enriched an elite few, the current black empowerment criteria have
done little to uplift the poor. Despite more than R150 billion worth of Black Economic
Empowerment deals being undertaken, more than 40 % of our population still lives
on less than R370 a month. Clearly, whatever it may be, the current economic
empowerment process is not broad based.
The DA believes that it is necessary to undertake a comprehensive analysis of BBEE
in terms of its impact on the economy and whether it has achieved its stated
objectives. A credible system to collect information on BBEE should be developed
and a mechanism to use the information adopted.
This review will explore the merits and consequences of:
• Placing less emphasis on ownership, and more emphasis on skills training
and socio-economic investment, in the weightings accorded to the various
categories used to evaluate businesses.
• Developing ways to prevent credits from being used over and over again by
the same individuals.
• Establishing an ombudsman to resolve questions of compliance quickly
Below this is the implementation program, please go and read it.
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelI am not telling lies about the DA, I am just able to read between the lines and get to the crux of the matter, comprehension over reading at faced value.
Oh dear, please have mercy, like I said before, you make things up in your own mind and believe it.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel - The irony is no matter which way the debate ways you keep on attacking the DA. Your true intentions are showing.
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Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people.
Do you expect me to vote for a party that seeks to reverse all policies meant to restore dignity to the black community and reverses the socio-economic impact of apartheid, what do I benefit from doing that?
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PleaseGetReal1
DZEL.Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people.
Do you expect me to vote for a party that seeks to reverse all policies meant to restore dignity to the black community and reverses the socio-economic impact of apartheid, what do I benefit from doing that?
You are not able to have proven this once.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel - Like I said, the article has got nothing to do about the DA. Yet you are against the wage subsidy, because the DA is in favour of it.You say that the DA is trying to manipulate black people with regards to the subsidy march, but you say nothing about the ANC manipulating black people to go and march for a painting of Zuma.
"Do you expect me to vote for a party that seeks to reverse all policies meant to restore dignity to the black community and reverses the socio-economic impact of apartheid, what do I benefit from doing that?"
You can vote COPE for all I care nowhere did I tell you to vote DA. All I want is you to discuss the youth wage subsidy without your prejudices.
The youth wage subsidy is rubbish, because the DA is against BEE/AA is lacking in debate and intellectual application.
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Dzel
PGR,It will give you more information as to what I remember from it,
Thank you,
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You will note that in the post above yours I state exactly what you think you are teaching me in a summarised version.
Let’s break BEE down so you understand the objectives better and so I point out why the DA’s version is ab.surd.
First the logic behind BEE is that it does not make sense to give people freedom yet the economic power is left in the hands of the minority so we need to make access to capital easier. Where a company wants to benefit from government tenders or in enterprises where government can influence ownership then there must be bla.ck owners who in turn will benefit financially from the deal. By giving this class access to finance then they are in a position to open a second business, go into other ventures or pass on the capital to family and friends so they are also able to get off their feet.
Plus the obvious benefit of a better living standards for the people concerned and their families so you give an opportunity to one person but the pool that benefits is larger. BEE is in the form of ownership of capital but also coupled with AA you appoint people whom you deploy to the private sector where they can influence big business, think Patrice Motsepe, Saki Maqozoma and other comrades who have been deployed into the business sector.
Whilst the issue of skills is important you must think I am an id.iot to accept the argument you present. The ANC has also recognised that the issue of operational involvement is important and they want this to be incorporated into an improved model of BEE.
The DA’s proposal on the other hand wants to shift focus from ownership to training so basically economic ownership and po.wer remains in the hands of w.hites and to some extent Indians so b.lacks remain the foot soldier who do the donkey work. Send them to short courses that make them better servants to their masters and we will reward the master for this. The balance of power does not change, ownership does not change and neither does racial representivity.
Please explain to me what I should be excited by the DA’s version that pays lip service to bla.ck economic emancipation?
Who really benefits from the DA’s version; bl.ack worker or business and current holders of capital?
Yes there have been problems with the implementation of BEE, you need to address the problem and not move completely to another model that defeats the purpose.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1DZEL.
Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people.
Do you expect me to vote for a party that seeks to reverse all policies meant to restore dignity to the black community and reverses the socio-economic impact of apartheid, what do I benefit from doing that?
You are not able to have proven this once.
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i just did in the post above.
BTW what happened to your "meeting".
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- You want youths to immediately be made directors and CEO's. Sorry boet, doesnt work that way.Report Abuse
Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel - Like I said, the article has got nothing to do about the DA. Yet you are against the wage subsidy, because the DA is in favour of it.
You say that the DA is trying to manipulate black people with regards to the subsidy march, but you say nothing about the ANC manipulating black people to go and march for a painting of Zuma.
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There is a direct link between this article and the DA march kind sir.
I see little connection between this topic and the march but for your info I thought the march was idiotic as there is no legal nor moral grounds to oppose the painting. Again, another topic debated with friends at length where I state why it is dangerous to go on this slippery censorship slope.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel -- You want youths to immediately be made directors and CEO's. Sorry boet, doesnt work that way
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Don't be silly, when did I say that?
Report Abuse
Dzel
Ngqondongqondo@Dzel
Thanks for a good debate you've been the pioneer.
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Thanks my brother.
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PleaseGetReal1
DZEL,your whole argument about what BEE is now we all understand, it is not working, hence my comment that I gave that it is only a few elite that benefits from it. Just because my company is registered and bla bla bla, BEE at the moment it means I can get a tender, this tenders is usually done by other 3rd party people as well who can't even do the job.
Please look at the roads in zimpopo and agree with me once, the DA want the policy to be that the people must get the training, it must not only be validated on ownership but the whole company must be qualified to be called BEE.
At the moment if an BEE company gets a tender he just offers the tender to the lowest bidder, ten to one who was in the same meetings as him. The DA want the people who is working for the company who gets the tender to benefit, get the correct training and maybe start their own businesses.
You are 100% right there is problems with the current BEE, there have been for the past 18 years, it is time for a new model, anc has failed again.
I am excited about the DA's plan with both their BEE and youth wage subsidy because it will give skills to young people to do their own thing, do you have your own company?
Young people with skills have active minds and with active minds comes good ideas, empowering them is the right thing to do, not just to empower a few elite who has no care for the youth and the unemployed.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- You dont want newly employed youths to earn a small salary, you dont want them to earn experience. You dont want them to be 'slaves of wites'. Therefore, you want them to be directors and CEO's. No other conclusion can be drawn. Everyone works for a boss. The skin colour of the boss is irrelevant. You can either start your own business, work for a boss, or be unemployed.Report Abuse
Dzel
PGR,The DA’s answer to access to capital is *d.rum r.oll*
Yep, give bla.cks access to cr.edit. Lindiwe came up hu.ffing and puf.fing dem.anding the ANC government speed up the transfer of titl.e de.eds. Their lo.gic is if one can prove ownership of immovable property then they can use that as security against which they can borrow from the private sector.
At face value this sounds good but if you know how financial institution work you’d know you have to ju.mp through hoo.ps before being granted a l.oan especially high risk business lo.ans, he.ll you almost to be Chin.ese to get a lo.an (figuratively speaking of course). You have to have access to your own finance to supplement the loan, you have to be cre.dit wor.thy, have an almost perfect business plan and then have a proven track record.
Sounds good on paper but almost impossible to implement and achieve the stated goal.
Then there is the little issue that should you def.ault on this loan then the bank in question will eventually repossess the very property you’ve just inherited from government.
I suppose if you are Lindiwe and you know very little about financial markets you’d think you’ve had a eureka moment, but if you understand what you are talking about you’d realise this is much to do about nothing. I notice though that Lindiwe has since gone quiet on the proposal, perhaps someone told her just how si.lly she was being.
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The-Rothschilds
Everybody supports this subsidy because it has a success rate all around the world, Including South Africa as the wage subsidy has already been implemented in some companies, giving mostly positive results. We have 3 employees in our company that are beneficiaries of the subsidy.COSATU wants to block the subsidy because it changes the structure of bargaining.
A person on the subsidy is actually employed by government working in the private sector. COSATU is a direct benefactor of real wage increases every year because the higher your salary is, the more COSATU and other trade unions gain from you as a member. It is easy for COSATU to bargain with big business with the support of the ANC, to drive anger towards "monopoly capital" to achieve their goals.
However, what if the ANC was the employer like it would be in the wage subsidy? It changes the ball game completely. COSATU having to bargain with the ANC weakens the alliance as we have seen it weaken the alliance during municipal and civil servant strikes.
Where am I going with this? While its simple.........COSATU wants to achieve its goals bargaining with a boardroom full of wh!tes rather than having to deal with the ANC top brass to achieve its goals.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1I need to clarify one thing before answering your question, what race do you belong to?
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelPleaseGetReal1
I need to clarify one thing before answering your question, what race do you belong to?
We are in a new SA, race does not matter.
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Dzel
The-RothschildsCOSATU wants to block the subsidy because it changes the structure of bargaining.
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I wish you guys understood what you are talking about instead of making statement full of ignorance.
The wage subsidy does not mean you reduce wages; the burden to the employer reduces yes to say 90% of the total wage and government pays the remaining 10% but the wage itself does not changed.
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Dzel
PSG,It matters when you support an argument because it maintains the status quo.
We can pretend we are now equal or we can explore different challenges that face various communities and explore which solutions are best given the context. Right now it I am convinced you are white based on your self-serving line of debate.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel -- You dont want newly employed youths to earn a small salary, you dont want them to earn experience. You dont want them to be 'slaves of wites'.
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Perhaps you missed the post where I say the subsidy is a good idea but if its only impact is to subsidizing existing jobs by shifting worker demographics then it is an exercise in futility when the only winner is business.
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The-Rothschilds
DzelThe-Rothschilds
COSATU wants to block the subsidy because it changes the structure of bargaining.
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I wish you guys understood what you are talking about instead of making statement full of ignorance.
The wage subsidy does not mean you reduce wages; the burden to the employer reduces yes to say 90% of the total wage and government pays the remaining 10% but the wage itself does not changed.
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You have no idea what you talking about mate. Please dont twist my words.
The wage subsidy is a tax redemption on your total wage bill if you created more employment in your firm.
Hence as a company, i can claim a rebate from government if I hired 10 more people. If there was no new employment created, you get no subsidy.
I dont feel like getting into a debate with because i dont think you really understand how the subsidy, or anything for that matter works anyways. I offered to send you information showing you evidence of the success story of the subsidy here in our firm but you refused. Quite clearly deeper personal issues are blocking your judgement.
Please dont respond to my comments again! im begging you!
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- So you are pulling the race card now? All wites are self-serving? Khulubase, Malema, Cele, Roux, Shibangu and those guys must be white then.Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
DzelPSG,
It matters when you support an argument because it maintains the status quo.
We can pretend we are now equal or we can explore different challenges that face various communities and explore which solutions are best given the context. Right now it I am convinced you are white based on your self-serving line of debate.
With your line of debate I can see you have a huge inferiority complex, I faced many challenges in life to get me where I am today, so did you, you can't say yours was worse than mine, or the other way around, at the end of the day we are here to make a living and support to what is the best for our country, because if we support what is best for our country out country men can stand up for themselves and build a nation where all is equal.
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Dzel
Whats the matter PSG, trying to figure out which race should you claim as your own so you don't expose your true motivation?Report Abuse
SVR
@Dzel"Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people. "
You say that the recruitment of young blacks is a mere ploy, to serve the true constituency of the DA, but by turning young black men and women into DA members, does this not by it's very nature change that constituency? Does it not also stand to reason that it is then this constituency who will raise future leaders of the party? I see this as natural evolution. I also don't agree with your view that pro business is a swear word that equates to anti worker.
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The-Rothschilds
SVR@Dzel
"Because of the DA's attitude toward black people, they look at us as nothing but cattle useful for their votes when their policies serve the interest of their real constituency i.e. business and white people. "
You say that the recruitment of young blacks is a mere ploy, to serve the true constituency of the DA, but by turning young black men and women into DA members, does this not by it's very nature change that constituency? Does it not also stand to reason that it is then this constituency who will raise future leaders of the party? I see this as natural evolution. I also don't agree with your view that pro business is a swear word that equates to anti worker.
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i couldnt agree with you more.
I think Dzel just probably has a big fat g@y wh!te boss that he can't handle :)
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelWhats the matter PSG, trying to figure out which race should you claim as your own so you don't expose your true motivation?
I am proud of my race, tell me, why do you care, what would you say if I said I was a black male, or woman?
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xBusi
@Dzel>Right now it I am convinced you are white based on your self-serving line of debate.
Common Dzel, don't make this about race. The same could be said about your aguments. Debate the issue not he man.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1With your line of debate I can see you have a huge inferiority complex, I faced many challenges in life to get me where I am today, so did you, you can't say yours was worse than mine, or the other way around, at the end of the day we are here to make a living and support to what is the best for our country, because if we support what is best for our country out country men can stand up for themselves and build a nation where all is equal.
+========================================================
There we go again, I have earned my position because of .....
Try answering the question, it is a simple question really.
So you, a white man and also a businessman who stands to benefit directly want to tell us that the wage subsidy as it is proposed today is the best solution for the country.
You want to convince us that a form of BEE that keeps ownership in the hands of the minority is again the best solution for the country.
I can see why you are excited about both policies, the question is can YOU UNDERSTAND why I am NOT or doesn't it matter to you?
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PleaseGetReal1
The-RothschildsSVR
I think Dzel just probably has a big fat g@y wh!te boss that he can't handle :)
lol
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Dzel
xBusi@Dzel
>Right now it I am convinced you are white based on your self-serving line of debate.
Common Dzel, don't make this about race. The same could be said about your aguments. Debate the issue not he man.
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Apartheid was based on race my sister therefore the solution has to be along racial lines.
How many whit.es do you know who live in a shack, work as unskilled labour (maids, gardeners, car guards, etc) and face the same socio-economic challenges that a low-income typical black family face.
Should I pretend we are equal, happy and the birds are singing?
There is a reason why Malema became popular as soon as he fashioned himself as an economic liberator, you guys don't seem to understand why. One of his messages is he will not rest until b.lack people live like whit.es or perhaps in your world these differences don't exist.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1I think Dzel just probably has a big fat g@y wh!te boss that he can't handle :)
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In fact my boss is black and we get along very well.
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelThere we go again, I have earned my position because of .....
Try answering the question, it is a simple question really.
So you, a white man and also a businessman who stands to benefit directly want to tell us that the wage subsidy as it is proposed today is the best solution for the country.
You want to convince us that a form of BEE that keeps ownership in the hands of the minority is again the best solution for the country.
I can see why you are excited about both policies, the question is can YOU UNDERSTAND why I am NOT or doesn't it matter to you?
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You see, there you go again, you thumb suck something and make it a fact, a fact for your little head.
I am a one man show and tend to keep it that way, I don't need your anc tenders and am just doing fine, I share my part in a local community and involved where more than a 1000 kids get food everyday, what do you do except to try to take away from the youth and people of SA by supporting a failed model.
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I can see why you are excited about both policies, the question is can YOU UNDERSTAND why I am NOT or doesn't it matter to you
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Yes, you do not want other people to excel and bring their part in society, you are afraid of competition and to lazy to work your a.ss of to build your own company, you would rather fight for the position you have now and stagnate in it without any competition of youth getting experience.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1I am proud of my race, tell me, why do you care, what would you say if I said I was a black male, or woman?
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Honestly, I’d be very surprised then I’d try to knock some sense into you.
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PleaseGetReal1
DZELHow many whit.es do you know who live in a shack, work as unskilled labour (maids, gardeners, car guards, etc) and face the same socio-economic challenges that a low-income typical black family face.
Should I pretend we are equal, happy and the birds are singing
White people births in S.A is less to the amount of deaths, we are only 4 million in an over 50 million populated country, there are poor white people in S.A,, it is more difficult to come by them because family usually takes them in I agree.
Please go and look at the growth of black people in south Africa, also due to your anc with stupid grants and free gifts.
Stop your white hate and compare apples with apples.
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xBusi
@DzelAll I expect from you is not to generalise to what people of any colour SA stand is for and what they want. I enjoy many of your debates, but I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality.
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelHonestly, I’d be very surprised then I’d try to knock some sense into you.
You could try, but you won't succeed.
Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
xBusi@Dzel
All I expect from you is not to generalise to what people of any colour SA stand is for and what they want. I enjoy many of your debates, but I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality.
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You are on fire girl :)
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- Yeah, poor wites live in townships. There is a white township near Coronation park in Krugersdorp.Report Abuse
Dzel
PleaseGetReal1Yes, you do not want other people to excel and bring their part in society, you are afraid of competition and to lazy to work your a.ss of to build your own company, you would rather fight for the position you have now and stagnate in it without any competition of youth getting experience.
Look, I am all for creating new business opportunities but this is more about keeping the accumulated benefit to yourself and not sharing the piece of cake with the rest of your countrymen. A friend who works in construction related to me how in one project a case was made that there are no competent black owned companies to bring on board. He would not take this as an excuse because 1. The job requirement was not that complicated, a person could even form a one-man show and complete the work require, and 2. This is an argument he had had before and it serves to maintain the status quo where you don’t develop the said businesses but giving them an opportunity to grow.
You are doing the same thing, slamming BEE in favour of a solution that maintains the racial monopoly in business and you want to sell that to me as acceptable. Did you seriously think I could be fooled that easily? Give me credit dude.
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SVR
testing?Report Abuse
Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel -- Yeah, poor wites live in townships. There is a white township near Coronation park in Krugersdorp.
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How many and what percent of the general population do they present?
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Dzel
xBusi@Dzel
All I expect from you is not to generalise to what people of any colour SA stand is for and what they want. I enjoy many of your debates, but I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality.
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Victim mentality, .... LOL. Show me exactly when did I play the victim and why the said statement is offensive?
Truth is we are being used by the DA, they sure have sold you their "non-racial" position haven't they.
I would much rather you address the points I make than you telling me I am playing the victim. Play the ball, not the man.
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelLook, I am all for creating new business opportunities but this is more about keeping the accumulated benefit to yourself and not sharing the piece of cake with the rest of your countrymen. A friend who works in construction related to me how in one project a case was made that there are no competent black owned companies to bring on board. He would not take this as an excuse because 1. The job requirement was not that complicated, a person could even form a one-man show and complete the work require, and 2. This is an argument he had had before and it serves to maintain the status quo where you don’t develop the said businesses but giving them an opportunity to grow.
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Who's fault is it that there is not one black person that then made this one man show. The W.hites?
You are doing the same thing, slamming BEE in favour of a solution that maintains the racial monopoly in business and you want to sell that to me as acceptable. Did you seriously think I could be fooled that easily? Give me credit dude.
Maybe you must go and read my comments to the top, I am in favour of a better BEE.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1Dzel
Honestly, I’d be very surprised then I’d try to knock some sense into you.
You could try, but you won't succeed.
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Because of you are white ... duh!
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- "Look, I am all for creating new business opportunities but this is more about keeping the accumulated benefit to yourself and not sharing the piece of cake with the rest of your countrymen" -- Ja, like Khulubase and the Zuma family. Like Julius Malema...You dont seem to understand how business works. I create a business to enrich myself. I provide jobs and I pay taxes. Its not my job to share the piece of cake from the money I have earned, from taking risks and making investments. If my employees dont like me, they can find another job. If my clients dont like me, they can find another business. And if you dont want my taxes and job opportunities, I can take my business to another country.
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelBecause of you are white ... duh!
lol, you really have an inferiority complex, and the real answer is, I will and can defend myself. ]
You are pathetic with your race card, grow up.
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Dzel
PGR,1. Who's fault is it that there is not one black person that then made this one man show. The W.hites?
2. Maybe you must go and read my comments to the top, I am in favour of a better BEE.
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1. You are losing the plot, the point is not whose fault is it but rather what actions are required to change the status quo and what artificial barriers have been put up to prevent new entrants to the market.
2. A better BEE - you mean the one that is meant to maintain current business ownership demographics?
That is not empowerment, in its design it is affront to the very concept of empowerment.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- "Truth is we are being used by the DA, they sure have sold you their "non-racial" position haven't they." - Jane, DA again. You wasted my time today. Where have all the intellectuals gone?Report Abuse
DoubleStandards
Dzel - "A better BEE - you mean the one that is meant to maintain current business ownership demographics?" -- You think the current BEE is meant to uplift the majority of people? Its there to uplift a tiny batch of connected cadres who enrich each other via tenders.I give up, unemployed South Africans are screwed. Even there black brothers (Dzel) is working against them. Black man you are on your own.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1Dzel
Because of you are white ... duh!
lol, you really have an inferiority complex, and the real answer is, I will and can defend myself. ]
You are pathetic with your race card, grow up.
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When in doubt always use the super race card to avoid answering specifics. As stated apartheid was a system designed along racial lines, its intended beneficiaries were of a selected race and whose living standards far surpasses the living standards of the vast majority of citizens of this country., It follows then that any solution that seeks to reverse this impact has to be along racial lines.
Which part of the above statement do you have a problem with?
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xBusi
This should not be a debate about who this policy will benefit, but rather if it will benefit SA as a whole. In this case I believe all South Africans can benefit – and that should be our highest priority. Remember we are all connected, if you disadvantage one part of the population you potentially negatively affect others also. You fire the previously ADVANTAGED guy and now he needs to let the lady that works in his house and his gardener go. Make it impossible for someone to start their own business, you make it impossible for him/her to appoint other (and potentially previously disadvantaged) people. Does it mean we should not take extra care to uplift the previously disadvantaged?... no… but it means we need to be smart about it.Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel1. You are losing the plot, the point is not whose fault is it but rather what actions are required to change the status quo and what artificial barriers have been put up to prevent new entrants to the market.
When I started my company I had a ball, because there was no challenges and no competition, ya, I have the first company of its kind in the world, how lucky am I. Sjoe, I have an monopoly that makes everyone mad because the whole world can only do my kind of business through me, this one man show.
------I was sarcastic about the above ------- in case you thin i am serious.
2. A better BEE - you mean the one that is meant to maintain current business ownership demographics?
WTF, do you just want current owner to give their hard work over to incompetent people who did not work for it? So that the company goes under and 1000's lose their jobs like your buddies did with Aurora, well done DZEL, that is a nice way of fighting unemployment.
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The-Rothschilds
DoubleStandardsDzel -- "Truth is we are being used by the DA, they sure have sold you their "non-racial" position haven't they." - Jane, DA again. You wasted my time today. Where have all the intellectuals gone?
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Well the DA must be doing something right because their voter base is increasing very fast and its not the wh!te constituency thats growing in numbers.
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DoubleStandards
Dzel -- 18 million employed people in south africal; 2.5 million employed white people and on top of that black people combined have more money than white people combined. Richest man in South Africa is not a white guy. What racial lines? Open your eyes to reality bru. Its all very nice there in your ANC lalaland but at some stage you need to wake up and face reality boeta.Report Abuse
Dzel
DoubleStandardsI give up, unemployed South Africans are screwed. Even there black brothers (Dzel) is working against them. Black man you are on your own.
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the attempt at emotional blackmail is noted but again if you re-read everything I have posted you will realise than like COSATU I caution against a system that has unintended but completely foreseeable outcomes.
How does does this equate to working against my black brothers?
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PleaseGetReal1
DzelWhen in doubt always use the super race card to avoid answering specifics. As stated apartheid was a system designed along racial lines, its intended beneficiaries were of a selected race and whose living standards far surpasses the living standards of the vast majority of citizens of this country., It follows then that any solution that seeks to reverse this impact has to be along racial lines.
Which part of the above statement do you have a problem with?
Apartheid is gone and lost, get over it, as I said earlier, look at the amount of w.hite people in SA and black people, you must compare apples with apples. Not your thumb sucks with the real world.
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PleaseGetReal1
Dzelthe attempt at emotional blackmail is noted but again if you re-read everything I have posted you will realise than like COSATU I caution against a system that has unintended but completely foreseeable outcomes.
How does does this equate to working against my black brothers?
We have asked you to go and read up on the system, it is working in SA already, it is working in the world, you are against the youth bettering themselves, if it is already working, why against it?
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DoubleStandards
Dzel - "the attempt at emotional blackmail is noted" -- Ja maybe if I had an ETV camera on me and started crying it would have worked better hey."COSATU I caution against a system that has unintended but completely foreseeable outcomes."
You and COSATU dont know what you are talking about. Why would an employee replace a skilled worker for an unskilled one? There is a reason companies want experience.
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Dzel
The-RothschildsWell the DA must be doing something right because their voter base is increasing very fast and its not the wh!te constituency thats growing in numbers.
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...and this pisses me off to no end Rothschild, not because it is wrong for a black person to join the DA but when we do we are not assertive about what policies we want the DA to join.
At some point I was so pi'ed off I joined the DA - yes I have a membership card - but then one starts asking obvious question and you don't get satisfactory answers so I stated to raise this discussions amongst like minded people. You look at who Manqasane was treated for demanding the DA not pay lip service by fronting using Lindiwe they should instead look at their DNA i.e policy.
I couldn't care less about who rules SA so long as my interests are represented.
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Dzel
DoubleStandardsYou and COSATU dont know what you are talking about. Why would an employee replace a skilled worker for an unskilled one? There is a reason companies want experience
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Its called reducing your costs, simple to understand when you understand how business operates.
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The-Rothschilds
PleaseGetReal1Dzel
the attempt at emotional blackmail is noted but again if you re-read everything I have posted you will realise than like COSATU I caution against a system that has unintended but completely foreseeable outcomes.
How does does this equate to working against my black brothers?
We have asked you to go and read up on the system, it is working in SA already, it is working in the world, you are against the youth bettering themselves, if it is already working, why against it?
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Dzel has a problem with the fact that the person "the youth" on the wage subsidy is working for a wh!te boss.
And he claims because of apartheid, the owner & boss happens to be wh!te. And it needs to change.
What he doesnt realize is that, WITH OR WITHOUT apartheid............these companies were started by individuals, not an entire race.
These individuals were clever enough to get to where they were on their own through wheeling and dealing and sharp business practices.
Apartheid helped wh!te people in many ways.............but it certainly did not guarantee anyone any success.
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DoubleStandards
Black man, you are on your own, Dzel will rather you get social grants instead of working thanks to youth wage subsidies.Report Abuse
xBusi
@Dzel>I couldn't care less about who rules SA so long as my interests are represented.
I couldn't care less about who rules SA so long as South Africas interests are represented. See... we almost agree :)
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DoubleStandards
Dzel - "Its called reducing your costs, simple to understand when you understand how business operates."Ja bru, if companies wanted to reduce costs they wouldnt hire anyone. Your comments are irrational and ill thought out.
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Dzel
PleaseGetReal1Apartheid is gone and lost, get over it, as I said earlier, look at the amount of w.hite people in SA and black people, you must compare apples with apples. Not your thumb sucks with the real world.
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Really? Look around you PGR, apartheid might be gone as a policy but its impact will be with us for a long time to go and until we get to a point where we can say we have finally defeated apartheid we need every measure to redress the impact thereof.
Your problem is you look at the world window rose-tinted lenses, I suggest you spend a day in the township.
No, I don't mean go to Vilakazi street and then claim to know how black people live and what challenges they face. Go to the squatter, a Diepsloot for example and observe the level of poverty that is prevalent and then come back to me and tell me apartheid is long gone so I need to get over it.
Better yet, while there tell the people of Diepsloot that they need to get over themselves and get a life.
Question; do you think you would have had the same opportunities and achieved the same level of success had you been black? Where did you get your start-up capital from?
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The-Rothschilds
DzelDoubleStandards
You and COSATU dont know what you are talking about. Why would an employee replace a skilled worker for an unskilled one? There is a reason companies want experience
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Its called reducing your costs, simple to understand when you understand how business operates.
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I dont understand your logic Dzel, how do you think a business grows? I needs to reduce costs and if there is a method that it can reduce costs with, it is bound to take it.
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Dzel
Not exactly Busi.Report Abuse
Shredder
@DoubleStandardsBlack man, you are on your own, Dzel will rather you get social grants instead of working thanks to youth wage subsidies.
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Now that is rac!st remark over there.
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Dzel
The-RothschildsI dont understand your logic Dzel, how do you think a business grows? I needs to reduce costs and if there is a method that it can reduce costs with, it is bound to take it.
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Agreed but you are ASSUMING the savings in the wage bill will be used to create new employment opportunities, I am saying prove to me it this is in fact the case and how.
In the end we agree on the solution the only difference is the approach to implementation.
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xBusi
@Dzel>Not exactly Busi.
It was just a tongue-in-cheek comment Dzel :)
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DoubleStandards
Shredder -- "Now that is rac!st remark over there" -- Ja sure boeta. Clouds are racist too because they are white ne.Report Abuse
Dzel
DoubleStandardsDzel - "Its called reducing your costs, simple to understand when you understand how business operates."
Ja bru, if companies wanted to reduce costs they wouldnt hire anyone. Your comments are irrational and ill thought out.
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Double standards please raise your game, without employment there is no business. I get tired of addressing pints that should be obvious to all of us.
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The-Rothschilds
DzelThe-Rothschilds
Well the DA must be doing something right because their voter base is increasing very fast and its not the wh!te constituency thats growing in numbers.
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...and this pisses me off to no end Rothschild, not because it is wrong for a black person to join the DA but when we do we are not assertive about what policies we want the DA to join.
At some point I was so pi'ed off I joined the DA - yes I have a membership card - but then one starts asking obvious question and you don't get satisfactory answers so I stated to raise this discussions amongst like minded people. You look at who Manqasane was treated for demanding the DA not pay lip service by fronting using Lindiwe they should instead look at their DNA i.e policy.
I couldn't care less about who rules SA so long as my interests are represented.
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people vote for DA because they are doing more for people on the ground than what the ANC is doing. They could not be bothered about a ex disgrunted ANC MP's opinion about Zille's choice. Its really not who is running the DA. Its to see what they are doing. Cape Town has been restored to its former international status under the DA, the city has never looked so good before. This is why they vote DA.
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Dzel
I know Busi :-)Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel,You are right, apartheid is strong and happening in SA with the few elite and tendepreneurs pushing the rest of S.A into poverty and unions costing jobs.
Have you been to makoko and mahush in mpumalanga, I am there just about everyday, looking at people being fired because of unions.
Do you think Oprah could accomplish the same if she was white,
Just for you info, not that it has anything to do with you, I had no start-up capital. I started with nothing, had a very low income job after i lost everything. a few years ago, had it all, big house and fancy cars, due to an a.sshole I lost everything and settled for a jokingly low salary.
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Dzel
Been a good debate, cheers mense.Report Abuse
DoubleStandards
Dzel - "without employment there is no business."Exactly bru, exactly. At least now I know how to get through to you.
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The-Rothschilds
DzelThe-Rothschilds
I dont understand your logic Dzel, how do you think a business grows? I needs to reduce costs and if there is a method that it can reduce costs with, it is bound to take it.
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Agreed but you are ASSUMING the savings in the wage bill will be used to create new employment opportunities, I am saying prove to me it this is in fact the case and how.
In the end we agree on the solution the only difference is the approach to implementation.
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Read the structure of the subsidy, it clearly states that only if NEW employment is created can a firm claim a tax rebate.
Noone said the subsidy is the end all of solutions to SA's problems, but its one solution for first time job finders to find skills.
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xBusi
Cheers Dzel and everyone else... my BF is almost here so the weekend party must start :)Report Abuse
Dzel
Sorry to hear that PSG but I thought you said you run your own company.Anyway I shouldn't pry, have a smashing weekend and the same goes to everyone else.
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DimaaneZB
These greedy bastards want to cash-in. Obviously since they breakaway from BUSA,which happen to be lily white, they know these will favor them,with measures of score cards in place they will chow that 5 Biiilllliooonnn.Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal1
Dzel, that is correct, and from that I started my new company, settled for a very low salary but worked myself out of it again.Report Abuse
Revulshionary
Dzel...Nor you, nor COSATU nor any of your children HAVE to accept any kind of subsidy...
Just refuse if you like...
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