No. She must fight her own battles or surrender the power to ANC. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
CheeseBoy
eh godZille what the problem now? can't handle the heat in Cape town now hey. ruling a province is no joke you see that now.
Not to worry I'm sure zuma will take some time of satisfying his harem and come to your rescue
he is a sucker for women that one. just be careful he does not add you to his collection. next thing you will be moving to Nkandla Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
DJWinner - She's not asking the ANC dude, she is asking the state. Seperation of power and all that. You would be wise to remember it. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
DJLoser
See that is the difference between the DA and the anc. The DA are not afraid to ask for help. Zille caanot deploy the defence force as they fall under the national government. So she should surrender a working non corrupt province to the leaches of the country and let it become the 9th province to fall into maladministration, debt, corruption and unemployment. Get real!!! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Cl!ck
She must go to Cowboy Bheki Cele's house and ask him to help her.. Otherwise she must just simply "Shurrup"..
And your leeduhs dance is so much bettter hahahahahahaha!! At least Zille isnt corrupt, is educated and works for her slary and has a fully functional working and above board province. can your leeduh say that? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
CheeseBoy - Yesterday you were complaining about the crime, and today when hellen tries to do something about it, you are villifying her?
Judging by the comments, the people are merely retorting based on their biast feelings, and not based on logic. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
Cl!ck
Lets await "the spears" response and then we shall see how much he cares about the country and its people. last time i checked he was still president of SA and Cape Town falls within its borders. But he never said a word about the Limpopo text book scandal nor the fact that he was to acquire a R2b jet at our expense so i doubt he will respond now. he is chief leech of the country. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
KeRataBasadi
I was under the impression soldiers are trained to ki11, not to be prefects, so I don't see Zille's scenario ending well. Mob psycho suggests that there is a head/leader, so the solution is to cut the head off the body will automatically fall, not turn a township into Beirut or Syria. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Confused and bewildered supporters the anc has! You know the old saying Bull Shyte baffles brains!! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Mokwepa
i dont know whats rong with dark people,they want this and they want this.
ok bring juju hee Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Ubufebe
About time, our soldiers are sleeping the whole and getting paid for it. They should be deployed with the police officers. To all the stu.pid f.ucks out there, this is not about about ANC and DA, its about people dying, wakeup! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
KeRataBasadi - What about 'peacekeepers'? Havent you heard of that term with regards to the army before? In fact, SA's troops have been deployed before as 'peacekeepers'. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DJWinner
So now people can see that ruling is not just as easy as they think. Surrender the province to ANC, we will help you and show you how to rule. None of the ANC-led provinces requiring army because we know what we are doing. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
Everybody wants to politicise everything. What about the poor people caught in the middle of this? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Shredder
MommaC does not want the army there.
I hope Dzel is not going to debate with WakeUpSouthAfrica and The-Rothschild on this topic again. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Ubufebe
@MommaC
Good question. Most people on this forum just want it to about ANC and DA. Goes to show how f.ucked our society is. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Shredder
**Shaking my head in disbelief** Nc! Nc! Nc! Some people can't differentiate between the government and the ANC. Zille is asking the government for help not the ANC. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
DJWinner
So now people can see that ruling is not just as easy as they think. Surrender the province to ANC, we will help you and show you how to rule. None of the ANC-led provinces requiring army because we know what we are doing
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YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS DUDE!!!!! None of the anc led provinces are functioning, some under administration, most have service delivery protests, billing problems, corruption issues as well as wasteful spending. None with clear audit reports or full spending of their budgets. No need for army is correct because most people are too hungry or out looking for work to fight. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
cocolucho
Does this woman not remember what happened the last time the army were brought in?? No we dont want our brothers to put themselves in danger to satisfy your political needs helen!! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
Shredder
I hope those two children don't start up again! That gets tiring.
Its not that I don't want the army involved, it is that I don't think it is something that should be done lightly. An army is a scary thing. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
CheeseBoy
WakeUpSouthAfrica
CheeseBoy - Yesterday you were complaining about the crime, and today when hellen tries to do something about it, you are villifying her?
Are you for real dude?
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Come on dude I was just making fun.
Of course I know she has no jurisdiction over the army. That chaos happening in Cape Town, only the army can deal with it. Report Abuse
Everyone gets so involved in the 'them vs us' that they don't even seem to care that people's lives are being torn apart. What kind of sick is that? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
DJWinner
Are you saying that the minister of police will ONLY help those who vote ANC? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DJWinner
DA-DBN-GUY
DJWinner
So now people can see that ruling is not just as easy as they think. Surrender the province to ANC, we will help you and show you how to rule. None of the ANC-led provinces requiring army because we know what we are doing
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YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS DUDE!!!!! None of the anc led provinces are functioning, some under administration, most have service delivery protests, billing problems, corruption issues as well as wasteful spending. None with clear audit reports or full spending of their budgets. No need for army is correct because most people are too hungry or out looking for work to fight.
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Well, that is your opinion. The point here, we are not asking for army in our provinces. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Shredder
@MommaC
Shredder
I hope those two children don't start up again! That gets tiring.
Its not that I don't want the army involved, it is that I don't think it is something that should be done lightly. An army is a scary thing.
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Good morning MommaC. How are you today? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
TAGZEN
YES SHE IS ASKING THE STATE NOT DE ANC GROWUP MEN Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
Hey there Shredder,
Cold :( I really can't like winter
How is life treating you? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
cocolucho
@mommaC
The people that are caught in the middle of it all know who the gangsters are because some of them are family. The army can only curb the violence for so long, but once they're gone the violence will erupt again, so I say its up to the community to help the police if they dont want this problem. Report Abuse
Are you saying that the minister of police will ONLY help those who vote ANC?
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No. What I'm saying is ANC led provinces are not asking for army. Things are calm and well managed.
This is not only about DA, IFP as well had problems when it was ruling KZN and asked for army. Now, ANC is in power and things are running smooth. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
DJWinner
Well, that is your opinion. The point here, we are not asking for army in our provinces
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More like fact and not opinion dude. Just because the anc hasnt asked for the army DOESNT mean it is not needed! Report Abuse
Well, that is your opinion. The point here, we are not asking for army in our provinces
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More like fact and not opinion dude. Just because the anc hasnt asked for the army DOESNT mean it is not needed!
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Really? I don't think we need army. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
cocolucho
That is one of the reasons that I don't think the army is a good idea. The problem is that it has got to the point where the police have let this slide into complete anarchy. If those community members don't join a gang then they are vulnerable, At least they have SOME protection if they are members of a gang. Now undoing that is going to take a lot more than a platoon or two wondering the streets. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Budapat
“They need the support of the SA National Defence Force to restore order in these suburbs while they proceed with the task of investigative policing.” NOW THAT CRIME AND GANGSTERISM HITS HOME THEY REACT TO CABINET, TOWNSHIPS HAVE BEEN BATTLING THESE THUGS FOR YEARS AND ARE STILL, ZILLE NEVER REACTED ACCORDINGLY. NICE MOVE GODZILLA, MAYBE IT'S ''REFUGEES WHO GANGS YOUR LITTLE ORANJE'' Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
DJWinner
Don't talk bull DJ. The army regularly helps out the cops in Pretoria. Hell, the cops here won't go near Little Zambia without an army escort and at least half of the roadblocks have army assistance. Last I heard, we were ANC territory Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Ubufebe
@DJWinner
What you think is not important,the reality of the situation is important. The police are failing so they need support in the form of the arm. Unless you want to voluteer and go sort them druggies out? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Shredder
@MommaC
Hey there Shredder,
Cold :( I really can't like winter
How is life treating you?
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I also don't like winter :(.
Life is treating me fine. Not great, not bad, but just doing fine. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
DJWinner
MommaC
DJWinner
Are you saying that the minister of police will ONLY help those who vote ANC?
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No. What I'm saying is ANC led provinces are not asking for army. Things are calm and well managed.
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What is your definition of well managed? Schools without school books? Unemployment? High crime rates? Provinces under national administration? Municipalities that are bankrupt? Officials involved in corruption and tender fraud? Provinces failing to pay their bills? Wasteful spending? Provinces education systems (EC) near collapse? provinces not spending their allocated budgets? Dude the list goes on and on and on!! Which part is well managed? Please enlighten me. If you can Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MissBhakajuju
its about time, those u.s.e.le.ss soldiers do something constructive..... enough with playing with private parts, while on duty !!!
KERATABASADI OPEN UP YOUR MIND THOSE PEOPLE ARE HUMAN NOT KILLING MACHINE AND THEY DO HAVE FAMILY THEY DECIPLINE AT HOME SO THEY CAN KEEP ORDER Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
Let's give credit where it is due, at least this this time she chose to act instead of being her argumentative self but residents had to go to the media first.
The argument around the army being used for policing purposes is silly at best. The army is not going to be used for policing purposes but their role will be a supporting role where they increase visibility and their fire power used as a deterrent. We don't need to be fighting another nation to be at war, the Cape Flat have their own war albeit on a smaller scale.
Let's throw all resources at our disposal at the criminals and in combating crime, these academic debates do little to help people in the front line so to speak.
If Zille ignores this, people would be complaining about how racist she is and how she does not care. now she has identified the problem and needs the state to help and you are saying she can not handle the heat.
Truth is that her province runs far better than other ANC run provinces and that truth unerves a lot of people.
I love ANC but am not blind to the many things that are wrong.
Would we rather leave innocent people to die just because the province is run by a white person? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MissBhakajuju
what is a detailed Job description of an S.A soldier, in recent years ?...... Anyone with a better understanding ??
the borders are wide open, so no need for them to patrol.
They don't need the army here, they need to get the cops to do their jobs, otherwise unban PAGAD. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
cocolucho
@mommaC
Its not only the police that have let this situation slide to this point. The community are to blame as well, if they didn't put gangsters on such a high pedastal none of this would be happening. Last year when the army went in to lavender hill, the gangsters all got together to fight the army. The community knew about this and knew which gangs were involved, yet refused to help when the army asked for help in identifying which gangs were behind that. My point is that if they want this problem gone then they too should with info. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
Dzel
Let's give credit where it is due, at least this this time she chose to act instead of being her argumentative self but residents had to go to the media first
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I agreed with the rest of your comment but not the excerpt above. Zille always acts but is stymied most of the time by the anc rat Tony, COSATU, SADTU and the like. Instead of assisting in the problems the WC does have they only seem to exacerbate the situation with insinuations and accusations none of which have ever stuck. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
cocolucho - Yeah, the community is to blame as well. For protecting the gangsters. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Ubufebe
@cocolucho
You ever heard of the word "intimidation" In gangland, if you talk then you become a problem for the gangsters..... Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
sh!tFaceSamsung
MissbhakaJUJU - ouch! playing with private parts nehh - hahahaa can't stop laughing Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
BaleliM
Truth is that her province runs far better than other ANC run provinces and that truth unerves a lot of people.
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How so, just a few days ago people were throwing human waste on the streets to protest against her provincial government.
Have you seen the news lately, have you seen how life is for Khayelitsha's squatters after Liesbieck flooded its banks. I bet you if you went to Khayelitsha, Gugs and Nyanga and repeated this statement about WC being the best run province they will look back at you with blank faces because that is not they province they live in or know.
Yes if you live in affluent parts of Cape town I am sure you have reason to believe this but the experience is not shared by all suburbs.
.... and what happens to the people who gave up the names once the army clears out and the cops return to their coffee and doughnuts? Not like the cops will come back out if they phone them at night or if they will stop 'losing' dockets which will allow the gangster free reign to come back and make sure the person doesn't snitch on them again
Brooms and mops don't work too well against guns and knives. The community is not protecting the gangs, they are protecting themselves from the gangs ire. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MsKinkyakaKamaSutra
While the SA police service have deployed extra resources to these areas, gang violence has continued unabated. It is clear that the current situation is beyond the capacity of the SAPS to control,” she said.
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Some SAPS members are on the gangs payroll
Dzel - WCape has HALF as many protests as Gauteng. Like I keep saying, a big problem is the influx of people from the ECape. You can build toilets and houses till they flow out of your ears, but when people stream in from other provinces, you aint gonna make progress.
But yeah, lets compare townships in Cape Town, to townships all over the country. Are you trying to tell us that the townships in ANC provinces are better? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - You need to stop hating on the 'affluant' suburbs. Its those people that pay taxes so that you can get grants each month. So that you can get an RDP house. So that you can get free education. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
BaleliM
@ Dzel, are you sure you want us to compare notes? It would take a year. All that you have mentioned and more is happening in all the provinces and i see no one going on and on about it.
The woman has come up with a possible solution and she is being shot down and yet we go on and on about crime in the country.
How about removing those blinds off your eyes and look at this issue with clear vision. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
Dzel
Fact is the WC is the best run province in the country and no amount of you trying to distract from the truth will change it. It is the only province to receive clear audits, uses all of its budget accordingly and is corruption free. You dont really expect the DA to sort out the mess the anc created of the WC in a few short years do you? especially with the opposition they face?
The same can be said of the affluent areas of Gauteng who think their province is well run. But speak to the township folk and they will disagree. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
It's a reasonable request? It does seem like an issue in the area, and the state could give a helping hand, but the flip side again is that our defense forces are stretched as it is. I have a friend who entered into the SAPS academy here in Durban and all I could think about was shame a life of middle class, but its a calling like any other. Requesting help does not show defeat it only shows that there is a serious problem. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - You need to stop hating on the 'affluant' suburbs. Its those people that pay taxes so that you can get grants each month. So that you can get an RDP house. So that you can get free education.
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... and people from the townships don't pay taxes?
Since when do we run some suburb better than others because if tax collected from these suburbs, doesn't the Bill of rights guarantee equal services for all or did the DA miss that part?
@ Dzel, are you sure you want us to compare notes? It would take a year. All that you have mentioned and more is happening in all the provinces and i see no one going on and on about it.
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We can compare notes if you want but the point is simple, townships and the Cape Flats are neglected so this CT is the best run city cr*p is true for some suburbs and not others so let's stop flaunting this as if Khayelitsha is some small haven cause it is not.
Dzel - "... and people from the townships don't pay taxes? "
Not as much, no.
"Since when do we run some suburb better than others because if tax collected from these suburbs"
Who says they do? You forget, that people living in suburbs put in more cash into making their neighbourhoods look pretty. Thats not a sin. At least they are not throwing their own waste in the streets. People in suburbs pay for their own toilets, own houses. If you compare the costs, then townships cost ALOT MORE than suburbs to maintain. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - Best run province/city in South Africa yeah. Mind you, we have 'suburbs' in Gauteng, ECape, NCape, Natal...
But Dzel is only making a stink about WCape provinces...
Dzel
doesn't the Bill of rights guarantee equal services for all or did the DA miss that part?
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Why you such a DA hater when the anc are worse than them? The anc seems to regard the Bill of Rights as toilet paper but any little thing that comes out of the WC you pounce on! I have yet to see you comment about the accusations made by Tony, COSATU and their friends that have all proved baseless and a waste of time and tax payers money.. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Shredder
@WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "... and people from the townships don't pay taxes? "
Not as much, no.
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You gotta be kidding me. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Why is asking for help so wrong? Dam people it's still South Africa. Or would you want to see your countrymen suffer because of gang violence? Just asking for help not for the second coming of Jesus... Report Abuse
"Since when do we run some suburb better than others because if tax collected from these suburbs"
Who says they do? You forget, that people living in suburbs put in more cash into making their neighbourhoods look pretty. Thats not a sin. At least they are not throwing their own waste in the streets. People in suburbs pay for their own toilets, own houses. If you compare the costs, then townships cost ALOT MORE than suburbs to maintain.
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Again your logic is all over the place, council maintain public spaces like parks, roads etc and they provide services like garbage removal, etc.
Absolutely no connection between services rendered and the average value of properties in a particular suburb. You can either think about this and realize why your statement does not make sense or you can be your usual drama queen self and we will go round in circle for the next few hours as you show your indignation and self-righteousness.
Certain sections of the anc would rather see the DA fail than to have them uplift and serve the people. THEIR PEOPLE!! Truly fukked up if you ask me. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DJWinner
DA-DBN-GUY
DJWinner
MommaC
DJWinner
Are you saying that the minister of police will ONLY help those who vote ANC?
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No. What I'm saying is ANC led provinces are not asking for army. Things are calm and well managed.
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What is your definition of well managed? Schools without school books? Unemployment? High crime rates? Provinces under national administration? Municipalities that are bankrupt? Officials involved in corruption and tender fraud? Provinces failing to pay their bills? Wasteful spending? Provinces education systems (EC) near collapse? provinces not spending their allocated budgets? Dude the list goes on and on and on!! Which part is well managed? Please enlighten me. If you can
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Well, some of those things you mentioned are also present in WC. I'm not denying them.
The point here is that those things you mentioned don't need army. I still maintain my point that ANC-led provinces don't need army. Somewhere, somewhere someone is doing his work properly. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
KeRataBasadi
@ TAGZEN
I know a thing or two about the army and think its not a good idea, thats my 2 cents, get out of province cops to investigate and prosecute gang leaders, having the army walking around with R4's and 5's will not deter a thing, get rid of the main culprits. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DJWinner
MommaC
DJWinner
Don't talk bull DJ. The army regularly helps out the cops in Pretoria. Hell, the cops here won't go near Little Zambia without an army escort and at least half of the roadblocks have army assistance. Last I heard, we were ANC territory
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You wish. Let's not talk lies now. We must give credit when it is due and admit that ANC is doing some things good in its provinces. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
DA-DBN-GUY
I can't understand the hatred here? Its not like she is asking Zuma or the ANC to personally come and fight crime she is asking the state for help? How is that anything but right? Its like me asking for paper for my printer at work, I have the right to request printing paper to do my job properly, she is doing just that at a defense force level. I think some people do not understand the difference between the political party ANC and the government.... Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
And please guys the best ran suburb in SA must be New Germany in Pinetown... PFFFtttt ja ne.... joke of the day!! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MissBhakajuju
DJWinner
The point here is that those things you mentioned don't need army. I still maintain my point that ANC-led provinces don't need army. Somewhere, somewhere someone is doing his work properly
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So, it is clear now that if DA can win national elections, this country will be run by army and military. he he he he...so, these people can't manage even one province? How about the whole country? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
DJWinner
Oh PLEASE. I've seen it with my own eyes. Even the cops in Pta admit that there are areas where they won't go without an army escort.
I have no problem with Pretoria but making out that it is some kind of utopia because the ANC runs it is just wrong. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
DJWinner
You're such a troll you know that... They will have a good blueprint on how not to run a country written by the ANC.. Report Abuse
Dzel - "Again your logic is all over the place, council maintain public spaces like parks, roads etc and they provide services like garbage removal, etc.
Absolutely no connection between services rendered and the average value of properties in a particular suburb. You can either think about this and realize why your statement does not make sense or you can be your usual drama queen self and we will go round in circle for the next few hours as you show your indignation and self-righteousness. "
TYPICAL DZEL. He doesnt try and explain his thoughts, he merely evades the topic and starts his normal insulting. Hehe, whos the drama queen here dude? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUY
Why you such a DA hater when the anc are worse than them?
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A very good question you've asked.
You probably assume I just hate the DA for the sake of it and without any logic but that is far from the truth. I have considered voting for the party and even joined as a member briefly out of frustration after Polokwane.
When I looked at the party, it’s make up, its DNA in the form of policy and the shameless practice of window-dressing by a party who affirm blacks in the form of leadership positions to suit its agenda and oppose AA in the same breath. I got seriously worried about what I am getting myself into and allowing myself to be used to drive a pro-business and pro-middle class at the expense of the poor I realised this is not the party I want to belong to at least not under those circumstances.
All I want is for the party to take its black constituency seriously. Putting black faces in leadership does not change the parties DNA, it does not change the fact that they want us to pretend apartheid did not exist therefore policies to reverse the impact necessary. To add salt to injury they want to substitute race with things like training missing the point completely.
The DA stands for keeping gains from apartheid and not offering the same structural assistance that whites have been enjoying long before apartheid became law.
How do I support a party that seeks to keep my people poor?
How do you convince me that it is OK that black people are in the bottom of the pile in terms of everything that has to do with money; average wages, average household income, average property value?
The party needs to change first by changing its policy and then getting rid of the self-righteous two-faced bigot that Zille is perhaps then I will consider joining and voting for the party. I refuse to use my vote as punishment; I want to vote FOR a party and NOT AGAINST another party. Right now I see no factors pulling me towards the DA, all I have are reasons pushing me away from the ANC. I would rather not vote that give a party a vote they don’t deserve because I am fed up with everything that is going wrong in the ANC.
If people like me do not speak out then the DA will not fix what makes us unhappy and black people will remain a cost that must be kept to a minimum by business, you do not improve the standard of living by paying peanut wages which is what the DA wants.
Unfortunately it is easier to call me a racist than to think seriously about the point I am trying to make. Yes I use race as a point of reference but the laws that oppressed us were defined along racial lines therefore the solution should also be based on race. If this makes me racist then I am one proud racist who has the interests of back people at heart.
Dzel - Are you telling me that townships dont have garbage removal? Lets see, in suburbs, they pay for their own electricity, water. In townships, its added onto the services tab, free electricity, free water. Free housing...
"Absolutely no connection between services rendered and the average value of properties in a particular suburb."
Il post again anyway. People we need to understand that the army is under national administration, thus Ms Zille cannot deploy the army since she is not the national head. With that being said its important to note that the army is an organ of the NB STATE, its primary role is to protect the every1 within our borders and beyond who is SAfrican.Thus Zille is not seeking the army for her own protection however she wants to protect residents of that area,if we can stop the petty politicking roll up our sleeve and unleash the mother of all campaigns for crime.Furthermore the SA army do not have allegiance to any political party they do not serve the ANC they serve the state. Political parties have come and gone but the state will always prevail. Ask Nazi Germany under Hitler, Facist Itally during Musolini, Bornaparte of France, Apartheid architact Verwod, Smuts and the likes in SA these were leaders that thouight they would rule forever but fate had other plans Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUY
Certain sections of the anc would rather see the DA fail than to have them uplift and serve the people. THEIR PEOPLE!! Truly fukked up if you ask me.
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Now that I have explained my logic please explain yours; how does the DA "uplift and serve the people".
I get the corruption debate but what else. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DJWinner
MissBhakajuju
DJWinner
The point here is that those things you mentioned don't need army. I still maintain my point that ANC-led provinces don't need army. Somewhere, somewhere someone is doing his work properly
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Please don't make me want 2 cry !!!
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Why do you want to cry now, babes? Are you ok? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
KeRataBasadi
How long is the army expected to stand guard/play security guard in the townships anyway ? until they are gang free? when there are no more drugs or guns there ? How long will that be ? Zille wanyela weer. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Magwabane
Thank you very insightful, so what you are saying is that Zille is doing the right thing? Asking for assistance to protect the people? We can all admit that the crime and gang violence there is rather high. Always wondered why? There was that Ross Kemp on Gangs where he was in SA but it didn't really tell you why. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DJWinner
MommaC
DJWinner
Oh PLEASE. I've seen it with my own eyes. Even the cops in Pta admit that there are areas where they won't go without an army escort.
I have no problem with Pretoria but making out that it is some kind of utopia because the ANC runs it is just wrong.
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No, there is nothing like that. PTA is probable one of the safest place in SA. I used to walk from Loftus stadium to marabastat after watching some night soccer games, but I was never troubled. PTA is safe. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DJWinner
safest places instead of safest place. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
BaleliM
Dzel
BaleliM
@ Dzel, are you sure you want us to compare notes? It would take a year. All that you have mentioned and more is happening in all the provinces and i see no one going on and on about it.
==========================================================
We can compare notes if you want but the point is simple, townships and the Cape Flats are neglected so this CT is the best run city cr*p is true for some suburbs and not others so let's stop flaunting this as if Khayelitsha is some small haven cause it is not.
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And alexander is also running the same as Sandton that is across the highway? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - The DA doesnt have BEE/AA policies? Mmm, thats strange.
I think you are mistaking 'apartheid gains' for creating economies. CT just did a deal with British Tabacco, and their worldwide call centre is now in Cape Town. That will create at least a couple of hundred jobs. It does seem like CT is turning into the call centre capital of SA now as well. Hopefully soon, we will be the next destination after India.
Those are real jobs.
As for 'window dressing'. I hope you see the flaws in your own argument there. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
DJWinner
Please, I hereby extend my heartfelt invitation to walk through Mamelodi and into Little Zambia, at night, on your own and carrying a cell phone. Once you are out of ICU, we will talk again Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
BaleliM
And alexander is also running the same as Sandton that is across the highway?
================================================================
I am not sure, Its been a while since I've heard complaints from Alex. Diepsloot is a much better point of reference for the point you are trying to make and I will not excuse the lack of service delivery regardless of which party is in charge.
Please, I hereby extend my heartfelt invitation to walk through Mamelodi and into Little Zambia, at night, on your own and carrying a cell phone. Once you are out of ICU, we will talk again
.................................
There is nothing in Mamelodi, I have friends there and they are not complaining. The problem with you other white people, you only complain about these neighbourhoods, but you don't even go there. You read some small articles in the news and then you start complaining. We live in those places, we don't only see them on TV. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DJWinner
DJWinner
MommaC
DJWinner
Please, I hereby extend my heartfelt invitation to walk through Mamelodi and into Little Zambia, at night, on your own and carrying a cell phone. Once you are out of ICU, we will talk again
.................................
There is nothing in Mamelodi, I have friends there and they are not complaining. The problem with you and other white people, you only complain about these neighbourhoods, but you don't even go there. You read some small articles in the news and then you start complaining. We live in those places, we don't only see them on TV.
You live in Little Zambia?
When was the last time you heard of your hometown (Little Zambia) on the TV or in a newspaper article? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfrica
I think you are mistaking 'apartheid gains' for creating economies. CT just did a deal with British Tabacco, and their worldwide call centre is now in Cape Town. That will create at least a couple of hundred jobs. It does seem like CT is turning into the call centre capital of SA now as well. Hopefully soon, we will be the next destination after India.
==============================================
I am mistaking anything sir.
British Tobacco has always operated from the WC. Crediting the WC government for this is like crediting the government of the EC with VW for example deciding they are going to produce all P.olo Playas from SA.
Tell me me about this deal, why exactly are you crediting the WC, what role did they play? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - The DA doesnt have BEE/AA policies? Mmm, thats strange.
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Merit based ... training ...
We've debated this at length, please don't waste my time on this one. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MyPot
Let them call SADF, sometimes this blacks in Western Cape are somehow, i am black too but hai!, we are realy dangerous yooh! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "Tell me me about this deal, why exactly are you crediting the WC, what role did they play?"
Because the callcentre is in Cape Town in WC :P
Do you know why? Because the city is busy installing fibre optic links everywhere. I have a 100mb fibre optic link running into my own house. And its cheaper than a 10mb ADSL line.
With infrastructure development like this, you can expect alot more internet and IT businesses moving to Cape Town. A Swedish online flight booking company already moved their offices from Sweden to Cape Town. And this all creates jobs. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "We've debated this at length, please don't waste my time on this one."
And yet you are still harping on about it? We didnt debate, just you throwing hissie fits :P Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MicaParis
@ All! Good Day long time (Very busy ..just came back from USA)
In terms of section 201 of the Constitution Act 108 of 1996 as amended, Only the President as head of the as head of the National Executive may authorize the employment of the Defence Force in cooperation with the Police Service. That section makes the President the Commander in Chief of the Army as such he is the one who the bug stops with as far as defence is concerned!
Section 18(1) of the Defence Act 42 of 2002 outline that,In addition to the employment of the Defence Force by the President as contemplated in section 201 (2) of the Constitution, the President may authorise the employment of the Defence Force for service inside the Republic or in international waters, in order to-
(a) preserve life, health or property in emergency or humanitarian relief operations;
(b) ensure the provision of essential services;
(c) support any department of state, including support for purposes of socioeconomic upliftment; and
(d) effect national border control.
Basing my contention on the above clarity, Comrade Zille is correct by seeking National Intervention not ANC intervention or help! Remember the ANC does not own the Government , it is leading it at the moment, the general electorate controls who lead the Government not the ANC, if the Public vote them out of Office well that will be another story as Zuma or ANC cannot do anything about that!
Once again Zille shows a lot of maturity and responsibility than lots of our Ministers like Comrade Nathi who cannot see that there is crisis in that area as Chief if the Police how embarrassing!!
Viva ANC viva the real unity in diversity....Mangaung here we come ...Alluta Continua! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Secretary
Zille must swallow her pride and join ANC,because her help is in ANC policies. Her education is meaninngless without ANC. Her dance is meaningless with racial elements in her face in democratic RSA. Zillle please join ANC fast before we reach mangaung so that we can help Juju to put shower where it belongs. We cannot leave shower on the head of our president and expect ,in the same time, him to think. Report Abuse
@ Dzel- I rest my case. You seem to have all the wrong answers that make sense to you. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfrica
And yet you are still harping on about it? We didnt debate, just you throwing hissie fits :P
==============================================================
If you miss the simple point that AA and BEE has to be along racial lines to address past imbalances and give more people to holding a meaningful stake in business then I can't.
Which part don't you understand exactly? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
JUL 10, 2012
@ Dzel- I rest my case. You seem to have all the wrong answers that make sense to you.
====================================================================
What? Didn't I just say Diepsloot is under-served by the ANC?
Do you want me to say what you want to hear for you to understand the point? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
Dzel
?? if it is the ANC who is in power, and has been since the very start of democracy in SA, then how is it the DA's fault that there is still a social discrepancy? Report Abuse
Re: fibre optic cables. Kudos for the Western Cape for insuring that in conjunction with government and private sector for ensuring broadband capability is improved for all.
So long as this project will filter down to the people and improve accessibility to all then I am a happy chappy. Do you know if this cable will be used by all CT's residents and not just business?
?? if it is the ANC who is in power, and has been since the very start of democracy in SA, then how is it the DA's fault that there is still a social discrepancy?
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Apartheid, turd forces, white elitists, white capitalists. Take your pick? The fact is yhat if implemented properly at inception AA and BEE would no longer be necessary in SA but we sit with a situation where the majority needs to put policies in place to help the majority. The anc has failed on a large scale and has only served the few cronies and families. The majority will never see the economic freedom because each elected leader serves their own family and friends first without serving the people that elected them. keeping the masses uneducated works in their favour and this will not change until the anc is voted out. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
LeratoMolele
she's trying to set Zuma up for failure.... Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
1937
Orlando Pirates is the true democracy of this country where black & white maketh the brand. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
DA-DBN-GUY
LeratoMolele
she's trying to set Zuma up for failure....
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Zoomer doesnt need any help in that department! He is an epic failure all on his own Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
LESON.1
how could one comment when a Hout-kop @Dzel just vomited his maggi 2 minutes noodle all over the place - I rather mind my tuck shop business ...
Nyeee nyeee nyeeee nyeeee nyeeee nyeeee
Hows ANC BEE/AA working out for you? Zuma said that BEE must reach more people...
But unfortunately he is running out of relatives :P Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "Do you know if this cable will be used by all CT's residents and not just business? "
Was first rolled out to libraries and universities last year. And been rolled out to residences since last year December. Cost is R300 a month (100mb FO) as compared to R550 a month (10mb ADSL). Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
tumzangwana
i think this woman has to be most practical human being i ever seen, plus its not like our soldiers are busy shoo.ting mofos out there so they must go help with this ish in the Cape. too many people have d!ed because of gang wars, at least she is coming up with a solution instead of shouting 'there is no crisis', whereas crisis is just staring at these ANC mofos in the face. i think this could work. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
MommaC
?? if it is the ANC who is in power, and has been since the very start of democracy in SA, then how is it the DA's fault that there is still a social discrepancy?
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I never blamed the DA for apartheid but I do blame them for opposing policies meant to reverse the impact thereof.
Which policies have they successfully opposed? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Was first rolled out to libraries and universities last year. And been rolled out to residences since last year December. Cost is R300 a month (100mb FO) as compared to R550 a month (10mb ADSL).
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Isn't this a bit of a rip off, I get 2.5GB monthly and pay around R 250 for it and that is a rip off in itself as there is cheaper broadband out there. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
MommaC
Dzel
Which policies have they successfully opposed?
===============================================
Don't tell me I have to repeat this again. The key word is not "successfully" but rather what you stand for or are opposed to (AA, BEE, Min wage, labour brokers, youth subsidy, etc) all of which benefit business and do nothing to improve the lives of the poorest.
Dzel - Thats for the line rental. You cant escape it, unless you go 3G or GPRS.
I pay R200 a month for uncapped internet at 500Mbits/s. Do about 250gb a month. Difference between fixed line and wireless. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUY
The fact is yhat if implemented properly at inception AA and BEE would no longer be necessary in SA but we sit with a situation where the majority needs to put policies in place to help the majority.
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Very curious statement right there my friend, care to elaborate before I respond
The fact that there is no law and order in S.Africa is down to the complete lack of due care, for all people in this country, by the govt and its ruling party the anc. The mere fact that Zille has to pretty much beg the president, after exhausting all available means, for military intervention in what is an extremely serious situation, only serves as proof of the govt's failure and not that of the DA.
It is a sad indictment that those so blinded by their support for the anc cannot accept that protecting innocent peoples lives should be paramount, by whatever means available. By regurgitating the usual 'Wit Gevaar' propaganda and BEE backlogs (due to anc corruption & incomptence, nothing else!) you totally devalue any argument put forward.
In the same vain, by saying townships in the WC are any worse than those elsewhere in the country is just ridiculous and further weakens your moral high ground. A moral high ground, you must admit, that has only been earned because of the injustices of the past and not for any great humanitarian achievements in uplifting fellow black S.Africans. Facts do not lie and although the DA can still do a lot more for the very poor in the WC and to establish more support further North, they are doing a much better job than the anc ever did in the WC - even with one leg shackled by the rusty chains of valueless fools such as Tony Ehrenreich! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
OXOLOSI
Eish ama Khalanzino ayayi thanda i Gangsterizm and Zille hambo fesha emhlangeni Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Thats for the line rental. You cant escape it, unless you go 3G or GPRS.
==========================================================
Then it is disingenuous to punt this as a solution for home use especially when it is not a solution for home use or there are much cheaper options. That said I am not taking away credit as clearly this is a business solution.
What we need to steer clear of though is the perception that the DA is alone in rolling out such infrastructure as government recently implemented a solution linking CT to JHB and Cell C is also in partnership to increase its network coverage.
Dzel
Don't tell me I have to repeat this again. The key word is not "successfully" but rather what you stand for or are opposed to (AA, BEE, Min wage, labour brokers, youth subsidy, etc) all of which benefit business and do nothing to improve the lives of the poorest.
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So they have had zero impact on SA and the current social problem STILL rests solely on the shoulders of the ruling party?
AA and BEE are covered in all of the manifestos including that of the DA. I did not read it as an opposition to the theory but rather a disagreement with the current method of implementation
Min wage is a difficult one as in some sectors the workers are content with lower wages but the unions are not (clothing for one - hard to compete with places like Bangladesh)
Labour brokers - well the only one on that front is Cosatu so I'm not sure where the DA fits in
Youth subsidy - again, that seems to be Cosatu. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
BaleliM
16-12-1838
The fact that there is no law and order in S.Africa is down to the complete lack of due care, for all people in this country, by the govt and its ruling party the anc. The mere fact that Zille has to pretty much beg the president, after exhausting all available means, for military intervention in what is an extremely serious situation, only serves as proof of the govt's failure and not that of the DA.
It is a sad indictment that those so blinded by their support for the anc cannot accept that protecting innocent peoples lives should be paramount, by whatever means available. By regurgitating the usual 'Wit Gevaar' propaganda and BEE backlogs (due to anc corruption & incomptence, nothing else!) you totally devalue any argument put forward.
In the same vain, by saying townships in the WC are any worse than those elsewhere in the country is just ridiculous and further weakens your moral high ground. A moral high ground, you must admit, that has only been earned because of the injustices of the past and not for any great humanitarian achievements in uplifting fellow black S.Africans. Facts do not lie and although the DA can still do a lot more for the very poor in the WC and to establish more support further North, they are doing a much better job than the anc ever did in the WC - even with one leg shackled by the rusty chains of valueless fools such as Tony Ehrenreich!
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Applauding..... Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
16-12-1838
The fact that there is no law and order in S.Africa is down to the complete lack of due care, for all people in this country, by the govt and its ruling party the anc. The mere fact that Zille has to pretty much beg the president, after exhausting all available means, for military intervention in what is an extremely serious situation, only serves as proof of the govt's failure and not that of the DA.
=======================================================
But the army has been deployed to these areas on previous occasions the last time being only a few months ago, perhaps you missed that point.
Dzel - Yeah, there are cheaper options. like the FREE Cape Town wireless user group (www.ctwug.za.net) - The joburg one has already connected Joburg and Pretoria to each other. Note, this is TOTALLY user driven. There are no businesses/governments involved. If you buy an anetenna, then everyone can use your antenna.
3G/Wifi isnt very stable. Latency issues.
Fixed line is the best option, for business and home use (depends how heavy a user you are). Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
16-12-1838
Thanks BaleliM. Dzel, no I did not miss that point - it is certainly no long term solution to the problem as this SHOULD be a police matter and it hurts me to even admit that that is what we need right now, at this time, during such an increase in gang violence given our past history. Perhaps you missed my point about the total lack of and continuous breakdown of law and order in our country under the current regime? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
MommaC,
I am a bit busy to go through that argument again, I would have thought you understood my position on each of those items.
Instead of repeating the same things over and over again I would like to hear someone convince me that the DA is indeed representative of my needs, they have policies that seek to empower and enrich all of us not just business.
Why should I vote DA, this question goes out to all DA campaigners. Unpack AA and BEE as outline by the DA for me (please don't post lin.ks, discuss this point with a degree of understanding).
I heared the British war ship is in the area why not ask them?
(How on earth would you invite a foreign army fully armed to visit your house?) Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
MommaC
Dzel
I am neither a DA supporter nor a campaigner for them. Hell, I won't even vote for them. The problem I have is simply with your distortion of the facts. Most of the stuff you mentioned is Cosatu issues and not DA issues. So why would anyone want to vote for them in the disguise of the ANC? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
MommaC - And when COSATU speaks about the DA, its not from a position of logic. Its from a position of political opposition. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Mporoz - We had some US marines in South Africa a few months ago, doing training excercises. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Fixed line is the best option, for business and home use (depends how heavy a user you are)
===============================================
Or you can do what I do, load data bundles on your contract and use your phone as a modem. With HSDPA speeds are so fast you hardly notice the difference even when streaming video.
Dzel, can I just state that I personally am not asking you to vote DA. ALL I truly wish for is that you don't vote anc. That is purely down to their political track record since the late 90's and no other reason! This country cannot take such levels of corruption, incompetence and selfishness for much longer. I know you agree with that brother, so I have no objection whatsoever of anyone exercising their democratic right to vote...but just vote with your head and not your heart.
Do not be influenced by political propaganda either. It happened to us 'pinkies' back in the day, don't let the same happen to you. Learn from our mistakes, 'Wit Gevaar' is absolute BS, we hold no political power and are grossly outnumbered...so why still all this fear? Division is not the answer and the only way we can have peace and prosperity in this country is by working together to break down those barriers and build up trust - the foundation of any relationship. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - Yeah, good point.
Its can get expensive. I can chow through 3gigs in a few hours :P Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
David-
Hi Dzel
What exactly are your needs; it would help us to identify the DA policies that would apply to them
As for the DA been opposed to BBEE
See this recienct speech by Lindiwe Mazibuko
BBBEE must be made to work - Lindiwe Mazibuko
Lindiwe Mazibuko
25 April 2012
The DA believes that broad-based black empowerment (BBBEE) is a necessary condition for reconciliation, redress and economic growth. As a young political leader, I am committed to making workable proposals to make BBBEE work for the many millions of young people who have yet to experience true reconciliation, not just an elite few. Over the coming months, the DA will detail its policy alternatives in this regard.
Definatly no opposition there
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As for the Army, they are not the answer. They just constitute a visible presence and backup to the police, which while it is nice it does nothing to resolve the current situation, I have patrolled with them in the past in my local township and all we did was ride around looking pretty, occasionally stopping and searching suspicious youngsters and confiscating some knives. They also backed us up when we did shabeen raids, not that we really needed them they just stood around chatting.
The SAPS needs to bring back the specialized units as requested by Dan Plato
=============================================================================22 Nov 2011
The reinstatement of specialized drug and gang units by the South African Police Service (SAPS) has now been affirmed by the Cabinet of the Western Cape Government as a policing need and priority for the Western Cape.
Cabinet’s confirmation at its meeting last week means the national Minister of Police, Mr Nathi Mthethwa is obliged to take into account these needs. I will also on Thursday this week be tabling the re-establishment of the specialised units at the MINMEC meeting.
Specialised policing units have proven to be an effective strategy as they offer:
• Dedicated teams working solely on specific crime categories
• Specialist skills and expertise needed to investigate, detect, arrest and ensure successful convictions
• Detectives who have full knowledge of often complex legislation and what is often sophisticated organised crime
• Specialised units are adaptable to changing environments and modus operandi and have the capacity to build up intelligence.
Many of the communities I have visited that are plagued by gang violence and drug fuelled crimes have all cried out for the re-establishment of specialised units. The Western Cape Cabinet echoes this sentiment. I will now be writing to Minister Mthethwa to inform him that specialised units have been identified as a formal policing need and priority for the Western Cape, for him to take into account, as contemplated by the Constitution.
http://www.info.gov.za/speech/DynamicAction?pageid=461&sid=23401&tid=49654
=============================================================================If this had been done then there would be no need to call in the Army, why hasn’t the SAPS implemented this and why is there no mention of this request in the article?.
Ms Zille's concern is for the people of the Western Cape. They placed their trust in the DA when they voted for them, and the DA takes their responsibilities seriously. The anc is bending over backwards to make things difficult for the DA without a thought for the people who are suffering and dying as a result of this terrible gang problem. Zille has asked for help - not for herself, but for the sake of the people she has sworn to serve. The DA has made the Western Cape into a place that everyone wants to be. The anc politicises this crisis for their own benefit. They could'nt care less for the people fo the Western Cape, or in the entire country for that matter. Their lies, corruption, nepotism speaks volumes. The DA has my vote. They actually DO something, they don't just talk about it. Its time for us to vote with our heads and not our emotions. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
16-12-1838
Thanks for the factual input David. It sure makes a change from all the nonsense spewed by the misinformed on these forums.
Why does the DA not spend more time and energy educating those poor people who are suffering, those who have sadly been let down by the anc by being denied an education and can't read or have no online access, about the good that your party does for all S.Africans (not just those in Camps Bay and Bishops Court, as is the common misconception) so that they will make the right choice come 2014?
I think more pro-active and positive political campaigning is needed, by knocking on doors and providing evidence of all your achievements, in the first language of that particular person. At the same time taking care not to use slanderous, underhand tactics employed by the anc. This will certainly benefit the DA greatly and help people dispel their fears and to realise that you are not a 'white' party. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
David-
@6-12-1838
Getting people to change their affiliation based on campaigns and speeches is actually very difficult, this is especially true in SA where the two major political parties are separated by colour and any move across party line is seen as turning your back on your race. This is true from both black and white views, any black person joining the DA is seen as a mindless puppet who is been manipulated by the white masters, any white person who is seen to join the ANC or god forbid the ANCYL, is seen as someone who is doing it for personnel financial gain. In both cases the person’s political ideals are not even considered.
This is what needs to change in SA, we are supposed to be free to exercise our own political views yet any attempt by a person to do so is roundly condemned if it does not conform to the majority view. This is what is stifling political growth in our country.
In order to achieve increased numbers the DA needs to publicly address all the problems that are afflicting the WC and sort them out one by one, they also need to put themselves above the petty slandering that forms part and parcel of South African politics.
The majority of the members on this form see to feel that white people will not vote for a party that has a black leader and the majority of its members are black, that is true for a minority, but the rest of us don’t really care as long as we feel that they will do a good job in running the country, I am actually hoping that Helen stands down in the very near future and that Lindiwe Mazibuko takes over as the head of the DA.
Where the ANC loses potential support from white South Africans is that it makes no effort at all to garner their support, they ignore us as an unimportant constituent, yet make a lot of noise because we tend to align with the DA.
Is it because they have no idea how to approach the issue?
On their website it states
Membership of the ANC is open to all South Africans above the age of 18 years, irrespective of race, colour and creed, who accept its principles, policies and programs
(That is a point in their favor)
The ANC`s key objective is the creation of a united, non-racial, non-sexist and democratic society.
(That is a point in their favor)
This means the liberation of Africans in particular and black people in general from political and economic bondage. It means uplifting the quality of life of all South Africans, especially the poor.
(To me this means that they have absolutely no interest in getting white members at all, so why would we even try to vote for them, especially since they have been running the country since 1994)
PS white English speaking South Africans don’t really do mass rallies where we have to listen to some politician speak
So true, that is the fundamental problem...overcoming this 'soccer team supporter' mentality. I'm afraid that that change, if at all, will be a very slow process and my concern is that we are fast running out of time. Also, you can't teach people about the true benefits of democracy by words alone. It is all very well focussing on the macro issues now and that is what needs to be done at this stage, but I still feel the DA need to place more resources and emphasis on making the less fortunate aware of the party's achievements to date.
I think it is also right that Zille stands down soon and allows Mazibuko to flourish under her watchful eye. I'm sure the fact that the tripartite crowd is tearing itself apart is a blessing in disguise too, it is now obvious to all what their real agenda is. Let Mazibuko take over the reins so that she can capitalise on this good fortune. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
I see a number of posts addressed to me. Sorry guys hectic day, I'll try to respond as quickly as possible (where do i start). Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
16-12-1838
Dzel, can I just state that I personally am not asking you to vote DA. ALL I truly wish for is that you don't vote anc.
==========================================================
I will vote DA if and when they address the lack of real transformation in the party. Similarly with the ANC if they elect a leadership I have confidence in and they show a commitment to address what plagues the ANC today I will vote for them.
But I have to be honest with you, as a black person and someone who grew up with a fair dose of politics my heart is with the ANC not because it is a black party but because of the enormous part they played in my liberation, I say being very aware that they are not a liberation movement anymore. I have absolutely no attachment to the DA but I can vote for them provided conditions are right.
As for the propaganda comment I am sure you are not familiar with my comments otherwise you would know I am not one to fall for propaganda. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
16-12-1838
No worries Dzel, a bit to catch up on ;) but your input would not be unappreciated. Your opinion is important my friend, I honestly mean that. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
David,
I have absolutely zero confidence in Lindiwe. I don't think she is as bright and as capable as people make her out to be and have yet to see anything of substance from her. Thusfar she is what Americans call an Uncle Tom, too eager to please and is somewhat of a yes-madam.
We can wait to see what she comes up with but someone who swallows this non-racial BS inspires little confidence especially when it is the application of BBEEE that is the problem, not the concept itself.
Dzel
Whenever you talk about transformation within the DA, we bring up Lindiwe Mazibuko, who you then dismiss as a puppet, which is also how you view all other black members of the DA
So how do they need to transform to meet your approval? Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
David-
What are you refering to here
but someone who swallows this non-racial BS inspires little confidence
especially when it is the application of BBEEE that is the problem,
I am committed to making workable proposals to make BBBEE work for the many millions of young people who have yet to experience true reconciliation, not just an elite few.
You both seem to be saying the same thing, so what is the problem Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
David,
The majority of the members on this form see to feel that white people will not vote for a party that has a black leader and the majority of its members are black, that is true for a minority, but the rest of us don’t really care as long as we feel that they will do a good job in running the country, I am actually hoping that Helen stands down in the very near future and that Lindiwe Mazibuko takes over as the head of the DA.
==========================================================
I have a serious problem with this view as it assumes that colour is the main determinant of how votes will go. It completely misses the point that someone like Julius understands well - as much as I dislike him he sometimes is very insightful - hence he has latched on this economic freedom bandwagon which has caused fault-lines within the ANC itself.
For the DA to really become they have to address core issues, electing Lindiwe as leader only puts a black face in leadership; what about issues that concern me and people who understand that we HAVE TO address past imbalances otherwise this will come back to haunt us big time.
May I ask if you are part of DA leadership, just curious.
Whenever you talk about transformation within the DA, we bring up Lindiwe Mazibuko, who you then dismiss as a puppet, which is also how you view all other black members of the DA
So how do they need to transform to meet your approval?
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That's exactly the point isn't it, her blackness will not address real issues. You don't seem to understand that I will willingly vote for a DA that is led by a white person as I would a DA under a black leadership.
I am not concerned about who is at the top, the party's DNA is what concerns me. The more faces you put to the public including speakers whose face is right for television whilst not addressing real issues the more condescending the party looks.
So true, that is the fundamental problem...overcoming this 'soccer team supporter' mentality. I'm afraid that that change, if at all, will be a very slow process and my concern is that we are fast running out of time...
I think it is also right that Zille stands down soon and allows Mazibuko to flourish under her watchful eye. I'm sure the fact that the tripartite crowd is tearing itself apart is a blessing in disguise too, it is now obvious to all what their real agenda is. Let Mazibuko take over the reins so that she can capitalise on this good fortune.
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Again, condescending and implies that we have absolutely zero political understanding and that there is no logic to how we vote besides ... what did you call it .... 'soccer team supporter' mentality.
So to you guys I am a brainless soul incapable of independent thought.
So true, that is the fundamental problem...overcoming this 'soccer team supporter' mentality. I'm afraid that that change, if at all, will be a very slow process and my concern is that we are fast running out of time...
I think it is also right that Zille stands down soon and allows Mazibuko to flourish under her watchful eye. I'm sure the fact that the tripartite crowd is tearing itself apart is a blessing in disguise too, it is now obvious to all what their real agenda is. Let Mazibuko take over the reins so that she can capitalise on this good fortune.
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Again, condescending and implies that we have absolutely zero political understanding and that there is no logic to how we vote besides ... what did you call it .... 'soccer team supporter' mentality.
Dzel
If you read my comment a bit further up you will see that is exactly my belief , your sentence gets a bit lost there are you saying that they will vote on economic lines and what does julius understand?
What are these core issues?
Here is a section from the DA Vision how does it not agree to what you have said above
A clear acknowledgement that there is a long history of racial discrimination and oppression in South Africa, that it was wrong and that positive action is now required to make it right. That positive action must be targeted at individuals who still suffer the effects of discrimination, not at groups. It must provide opportunity to the disadvantaged without shutting off opportunity to the advantaged.
As for been part of the leadership no, although I have thought about becoming a member
You both seem to be saying the same thing, so what is the problem
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Lindiwe has not said anything but "I'll take a look at it", what I am saying is we have an implementable model that is being abused. don't reinvent the wheel, just address the implementation thereof.
The non-racial statement refers to a term that the DA uses to dismiss race-based AA and BBEEE which Lindiwe has swallowed hook, line and sinker; if this is the case then there is little hope that she will get this conundrum right. In fact there is little to figure out as I have stated. Net thing she will be talking about rewarding training and call that BBEEE, it ids not.
Thanks brother, I am not as familiar as others about your personal views so please accept that I did not mean harm with any of my comments. I just want to put my views forward in a constructive and civil manner and not knowing you personally, that can sometimes be difficult.
I fully understand your reasoning and where you are coming from, I too grew up with a fair dose of politics but unfortunately, being Afrikaans, they were severely tainted with religious right wing beliefs. I soon realised such demeaning beliefs were wrong and chose a different path, so therefore require the same conditions as you when lending my support to a political party.
Like you, I only want what is best for ALL in this country, no matter which party is able to provide this. I have ultimate respect for what the anc has done for the liberation of my fellow countrymen, all those sacrifices they have had to endure during their 100 years. So I can honestly understand the attachment for so many, but those principals can only take you so far before the economics of reality take over - and so for that, their date of expiry has been reached.
Yes, there are many things that the DA needs to overcome to gain the support of the majority but although I am still not fully convinced, I do feel they are doing a helluva lot more things right than the current party in power. The people running the DA most certainly have better attributes and qualifications to empower them to do a better job, they are unified and appear to be relatively free from the corruption and incompetence plaguing the anc - on the whole that is down to good leadership, I cannot say the same for the anc and co.
Respect to you my friend for engaging in this civil discussion with me, it is people like you that give us all hope and I truly value your input. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
Dzel
David-
Here is a section from the DA Vision how does it not agree to what you have said above
A clear acknowledgement that there is a long history of racial discrimination and oppression in South Africa, that it was wrong and that positive action is now required to make it right. That positive action must be targeted at individuals who still suffer the effects of discrimination, not at groups.
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I spot the problem right there, need vs race. This is what I mean when I saying the non-racial BS.
Was apartheid not implemented along racial lines since 1948 officially and even longer under the British.
Please break down this need based BBEEE, how will it work exactly.
Whilst at it are you aware of economic disparities particularly along racial lines/
Can you tell me with a straight face that there is equality along racial lines and if your answer is no how do you hope to sell me the idea that what you have just said is the solution?
Pity about you not being in leadership, I would like to engage with someone who has the power to influence.
Dzel
When you refer to the DNA I assume you are referring to the policies that embody the DA?
What policy changes would you want?
Actually if more of the top DA leadership, then the ANC will have to start playing the ball and not the player, this will be a problem for them as they have always focused on the fact that it is a white party
As for your comments regarding he soccer team mentality, unfortunately that is the current political mentality for both white and black south Africans, there is some movement which is seen as the smaller parties, but for the moment it is black (ANC) vs. white (DA) and the majority will not change their vote.
However this is changing as the new generation emerges.
When you refer to the DNA I assume you are referring to the policies that embody the DA?
What policy changes would you want?
Actually if more of the top DA leadership, then the ANC will have to start playing the ball and not the player, this will be a problem for them as they have always focused on the fact that it is a white party
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Correct, I mean policy.
You are going the wrong way about fixing what is a simple problem. The DA thinks they can pretend to be fixing the problem istead of actually fixing it. Until the party understands this little fact they will forever complaining about voting along racial lines as they don't to to get it.
I personally think the DA understands what the stumbling blocks are., they are not prepared to change that is why their MO is obfuscation and window-dressing.
Dzel
What is wrong with what she said, you say it is not been properly implemented and she wants to offer suggestions on how it can be achieved, she is not reinventing anything
- Genuine AA that seeks to increase black representation at all levels particularly at the top. It is pointless to quote numbers when all the dar.kies are in the mail room.
- Genuine BEE that seeks to change the face of ownership and empowers those amongst us who are capable and competent.
An end to policies that treat black people as mere inputs to costs and threats them with dignity including repealing policies that keep us subjugated like
1. mimimum wage
2. sound labour laws,
3. the scrapping of apartheid style practices like unpaid overtime, labour brokers, etc.
In short I subscribe to many of COSATU's policies and truly believe for us to transform the nation we first have to transform how we think and view fellow south Africans.
One's worth is not measured by the size of their bank account, the policies we implement must reflect this thinking.
What is wrong with what she said, you say it is not been properly implemented and she wants to offer suggestions on how it can be achieved, she is not reinventing anything
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Its called obfuscation David, perhaps this conversation will make more sense once she tables her proposal but I am not holding my breath.
Ha racist schmacist, a well travelled action of attack by those with little else to defend themselves! You got your point across very well indeed, thanks for that.
In my defence on one of the points you answered, I don't think that wanting Lindiwe Mazibuko to take over the DA leadership is condescending - I genuinely like the woman and would like to see her do well, my personal opinion. Perhaps you were a little sensitive to the colour aspect, us 'pinkies' don't always have a hidden agenda.
We don't have to agree all the time but it is important to respect each others opinion so good on you Dzel. Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
16-12-1838
Cheers David, thanks for your input...at last an intelligent conversation between well informed people without the usual trolls! Report Abuse
Jul 10, 2012
moralett
The security is not for the ANC is for the state, so now the security must deployed in Cape Town, this sandf must go their to protect the people. Those who said Zille must protect ist own people they are total out of there mind Report Abuse
Jul 11, 2012
David-
Hi Dzel
Thanks these I can respond to
- Genuine AA that seeks to increase black representation at all levels particularly at the top. It is pointless to quote numbers when all the dar.kies are in the mail room.
= Since I have started working I have been bumping my nose against this, so it should be working, plus when I left NMMU 94% of my class (NDip Logistics Management) was black and the majority of them got jobs, I know this as I often bump into the at industry functions. As for getting to the top it’s tough for everybody and unfortunately the people on top stick around for quite a while making movement very slow, its like that all over the world
- Genuine BEE that seeks to change the face of ownership and empowers those amongst us who are capable and competent.
What ownership are you talking about as we have various forms in SA, and in order to get a share in most business other than sole ownership you need to be able to buy in to get a stake. The act does seem to give access to funding in order to achieve this. Also your multinational companies which make up a large percentage of our top companies are exempt from certain sections of the BBBEE act
Equity Equivalent Investment Programme for multinationals
The codes of good practice allow foreign multinational companies that do business in South Africa some flexibility in how they structure their empowerment deals.
In particular, the B-BBEE Codes of Good Practice acknowledge that there may be multinationals whose global practices prevent them from complying with the ownership element of B-BBEE through the traditional sale of shares to black South Africans.
In such cases, the codes allow for contributions in lieu of a direct sale of equity. These contributions, known as "equity equivalent" contributions, count towards the ownership element of B-BBEE.
http://www.southafrica.info/business/trends/empowerment/bee.htm#objectives
An end to policies that treat black people as mere inputs to costs and threats them with dignity including repealing policies that keep us subjugated like
1. mimimum wage
2. sound labour laws,
3. the scrapping of apartheid style practices like unpaid overtime, labour brokers, etc.
What you have stated above does not apply to only black people but all people in the workforce be they black, white, coloured, Indian etc
Not all whites work in cushy offices, we are represented at all levels of the work force, yet we are not always that visible as we constitute a small segment of the population
Why do set minimum wages and sound Labour laws keep you subjugated?
Unpaid overtime can only be used if all parties agree and it is often used when a company is in financial difficulties and they have a choice between that and the company closing
As for Labour brokers it either needs to be very tightly regulated or removed as there seems to be a lot of scope for abuse to occur
Cosatu has some good ideas unfortunately they are overshadowed by other issues, the same goes for all parties (ANCYL included) and groups in SA, if we could collect all these ideas and suggestions under one group without all the rubbish, we would have the best country in the world
The army is now needed because the so called "police" do not do thier work!
When last have you seen a policeperson walking around and preventing crime?
They arrive long after it happened and do not know what to do.
We pay tax and the criminals walk around freely while we live in fear!
Get the police qualified to do thier jobs.
But this is hard when they have had 2 criminals as leaders and now someone who does not even come from thier ranks!!
No wonder there are so many private security companies! Report Abuse
Jul 11, 2012
junta99ekurhuleni
@ 1601201983
@ Dzel
@ David-
Thank you for such an informed, intelligent,well articulated and logic-laden conversation amongst you gentlemen....must say , I've learnt a lot from this! Report Abuse
Jul 18, 2012
Bhugaluv
We must stop politicizing any sort of conflict in this country because innocent people are dying on a daily basis.
The gang problem in the Western Cape is very complex. These guys are not shooting each other because of drugs or turf but for revenge. “Maak die nommer vol”. Gangs in Cape Town are none like any, these guys don’t do drive by’s. They walk up to you and just shoot you five times in the face. There is only one way of stopping the gang war in the Western Cape, speak to the aunty in the street. Most of these harden gangsters grow up in front of these aunties. The aunty in the street will be able to speak to the Stagies of today. Tell them that what they are doing is bad and that it is affecting the community in a negative way. That harden criminal will listen to that aunty because he knows her and he feels for her. He will speak to his soldiers and the war will stop. Government wants to come up with strategies that will not work for these communities because they don’t live in these communities and have no idea of gangs. How can the SAPS/SANDF stop 5 different gangs from killing each other in one area alone? What we need to understand is that these guys don’t care about politics and careless about the police. So the army is not going to help. What is the army going to do? Shoot the gangsters?
By the way, I’m from Cape Town.
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Comments
DJWinner
No. She must fight her own battles or surrender the power to ANC.Report Abuse
CheeseBoy
eh godZille what the problem now? can't handle the heat in Cape town now hey. ruling a province is no joke you see that now.Not to worry I'm sure zuma will take some time of satisfying his harem and come to your rescue
he is a sucker for women that one. just be careful he does not add you to his collection. next thing you will be moving to Nkandla
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
DJWinner - She's not asking the ANC dude, she is asking the state. Seperation of power and all that. You would be wise to remember it.Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
DJLoserSee that is the difference between the DA and the anc. The DA are not afraid to ask for help. Zille caanot deploy the defence force as they fall under the national government. So she should surrender a working non corrupt province to the leaches of the country and let it become the 9th province to fall into maladministration, debt, corruption and unemployment. Get real!!!
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Cl!ck
She must go to Cowboy Bheki Cele's house and ask him to help her.. Otherwise she must just simply "Shurrup"..Report Abuse
Mokwepa
Zille for president.Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
SecretaryAnd your leeduhs dance is so much bettter hahahahahahaha!! At least Zille isnt corrupt, is educated and works for her slary and has a fully functional working and above board province. can your leeduh say that?
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
CheeseBoy - Yesterday you were complaining about the crime, and today when hellen tries to do something about it, you are villifying her?Are you for real dude?
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Judging by the comments, the people are merely retorting based on their biast feelings, and not based on logic.Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
Cl!ckLets await "the spears" response and then we shall see how much he cares about the country and its people. last time i checked he was still president of SA and Cape Town falls within its borders. But he never said a word about the Limpopo text book scandal nor the fact that he was to acquire a R2b jet at our expense so i doubt he will respond now. he is chief leech of the country.
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KeRataBasadi
I was under the impression soldiers are trained to ki11, not to be prefects, so I don't see Zille's scenario ending well. Mob psycho suggests that there is a head/leader, so the solution is to cut the head off the body will automatically fall, not turn a township into Beirut or Syria.Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
WakeUpSouthAfricaConfused and bewildered supporters the anc has! You know the old saying Bull Shyte baffles brains!!
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Mokwepa
i dont know whats rong with dark people,they want this and they want this.ok bring juju hee
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Ubufebe
About time, our soldiers are sleeping the whole and getting paid for it. They should be deployed with the police officers. To all the stu.pid f.ucks out there, this is not about about ANC and DA, its about people dying, wakeup!Report Abuse
WakeUpSouthAfrica
KeRataBasadi - What about 'peacekeepers'? Havent you heard of that term with regards to the army before? In fact, SA's troops have been deployed before as 'peacekeepers'.Report Abuse
DJWinner
So now people can see that ruling is not just as easy as they think. Surrender the province to ANC, we will help you and show you how to rule. None of the ANC-led provinces requiring army because we know what we are doing.Report Abuse
MommaC
Everybody wants to politicise everything. What about the poor people caught in the middle of this?Report Abuse
Shredder
MommaC does not want the army there.I hope Dzel is not going to debate with WakeUpSouthAfrica and The-Rothschild on this topic again.
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Ubufebe
@MommaCGood question. Most people on this forum just want it to about ANC and DA. Goes to show how f.ucked our society is.
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Shredder
**Shaking my head in disbelief** Nc! Nc! Nc! Some people can't differentiate between the government and the ANC. Zille is asking the government for help not the ANC.Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
DJWinnerSo now people can see that ruling is not just as easy as they think. Surrender the province to ANC, we will help you and show you how to rule. None of the ANC-led provinces requiring army because we know what we are doing
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YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS DUDE!!!!! None of the anc led provinces are functioning, some under administration, most have service delivery protests, billing problems, corruption issues as well as wasteful spending. None with clear audit reports or full spending of their budgets. No need for army is correct because most people are too hungry or out looking for work to fight.
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cocolucho
Does this woman not remember what happened the last time the army were brought in?? No we dont want our brothers to put themselves in danger to satisfy your political needs helen!!Report Abuse
MommaC
ShredderI hope those two children don't start up again! That gets tiring.
Its not that I don't want the army involved, it is that I don't think it is something that should be done lightly. An army is a scary thing.
Report Abuse
CheeseBoy
WakeUpSouthAfricaCheeseBoy - Yesterday you were complaining about the crime, and today when hellen tries to do something about it, you are villifying her?
Are you for real dude?
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Come on dude I was just making fun.
Of course I know she has no jurisdiction over the army. That chaos happening in Cape Town, only the army can deal with it.
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DA-DBN-GUY
cocoluchoWhat is political about it?
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MommaC
UbufebeEveryone gets so involved in the 'them vs us' that they don't even seem to care that people's lives are being torn apart. What kind of sick is that?
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MommaC
DJWinnerAre you saying that the minister of police will ONLY help those who vote ANC?
Report Abuse
DJWinner
DA-DBN-GUYDJWinner
So now people can see that ruling is not just as easy as they think. Surrender the province to ANC, we will help you and show you how to rule. None of the ANC-led provinces requiring army because we know what we are doing
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YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS DUDE!!!!! None of the anc led provinces are functioning, some under administration, most have service delivery protests, billing problems, corruption issues as well as wasteful spending. None with clear audit reports or full spending of their budgets. No need for army is correct because most people are too hungry or out looking for work to fight.
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Well, that is your opinion. The point here, we are not asking for army in our provinces.
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Shredder
@MommaCShredder
I hope those two children don't start up again! That gets tiring.
Its not that I don't want the army involved, it is that I don't think it is something that should be done lightly. An army is a scary thing.
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Good morning MommaC. How are you today?
Report Abuse
TAGZEN
YES SHE IS ASKING THE STATE NOT DE ANC GROWUP MENReport Abuse
MommaC
Hey there Shredder,Cold :( I really can't like winter
How is life treating you?
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cocolucho
@mommaCThe people that are caught in the middle of it all know who the gangsters are because some of them are family. The army can only curb the violence for so long, but once they're gone the violence will erupt again, so I say its up to the community to help the police if they dont want this problem.
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RTX_THE_GHOST
Zille for president periodReport Abuse
Mokwepa
viva DAReport Abuse
DJWinner
MommaCDJWinner
Are you saying that the minister of police will ONLY help those who vote ANC?
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No. What I'm saying is ANC led provinces are not asking for army. Things are calm and well managed.
This is not only about DA, IFP as well had problems when it was ruling KZN and asked for army. Now, ANC is in power and things are running smooth.
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DA-DBN-GUY
DJWinnerWell, that is your opinion. The point here, we are not asking for army in our provinces
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More like fact and not opinion dude. Just because the anc hasnt asked for the army DOESNT mean it is not needed!
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DJWinner
The ANC-led State.Report Abuse
DJWinner
DA-DBN-GUYDJWinner
Well, that is your opinion. The point here, we are not asking for army in our provinces
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More like fact and not opinion dude. Just because the anc hasnt asked for the army DOESNT mean it is not needed!
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Really? I don't think we need army.
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MommaC
cocoluchoThat is one of the reasons that I don't think the army is a good idea. The problem is that it has got to the point where the police have let this slide into complete anarchy. If those community members don't join a gang then they are vulnerable, At least they have SOME protection if they are members of a gang. Now undoing that is going to take a lot more than a platoon or two wondering the streets.
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Budapat
“They need the support of the SA National Defence Force to restore order in these suburbs while they proceed with the task of investigative policing.” NOW THAT CRIME AND GANGSTERISM HITS HOME THEY REACT TO CABINET, TOWNSHIPS HAVE BEEN BATTLING THESE THUGS FOR YEARS AND ARE STILL, ZILLE NEVER REACTED ACCORDINGLY. NICE MOVE GODZILLA, MAYBE IT'S ''REFUGEES WHO GANGS YOUR LITTLE ORANJE''Report Abuse
MommaC
DJWinnerDon't talk bull DJ. The army regularly helps out the cops in Pretoria. Hell, the cops here won't go near Little Zambia without an army escort and at least half of the roadblocks have army assistance. Last I heard, we were ANC territory
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Ubufebe
@DJWinnerWhat you think is not important,the reality of the situation is important. The police are failing so they need support in the form of the arm. Unless you want to voluteer and go sort them druggies out?
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Shredder
@MommaCHey there Shredder,
Cold :( I really can't like winter
How is life treating you?
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I also don't like winter :(.
Life is treating me fine. Not great, not bad, but just doing fine.
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DA-DBN-GUY
DJWinnerMommaC
DJWinner
Are you saying that the minister of police will ONLY help those who vote ANC?
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No. What I'm saying is ANC led provinces are not asking for army. Things are calm and well managed.
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What is your definition of well managed? Schools without school books? Unemployment? High crime rates? Provinces under national administration? Municipalities that are bankrupt? Officials involved in corruption and tender fraud? Provinces failing to pay their bills? Wasteful spending? Provinces education systems (EC) near collapse? provinces not spending their allocated budgets? Dude the list goes on and on and on!! Which part is well managed? Please enlighten me. If you can
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MissBhakajuju
its about time, those u.s.e.le.ss soldiers do something constructive..... enough with playing with private parts, while on duty !!!Report Abuse
TAGZEN
KERATABASADI OPEN UP YOUR MIND THOSE PEOPLE ARE HUMAN NOT KILLING MACHINE AND THEY DO HAVE FAMILY THEY DECIPLINE AT HOME SO THEY CAN KEEP ORDERReport Abuse
Dzel
Let's give credit where it is due, at least this this time she chose to act instead of being her argumentative self but residents had to go to the media first.The argument around the army being used for policing purposes is silly at best. The army is not going to be used for policing purposes but their role will be a supporting role where they increase visibility and their fire power used as a deterrent. We don't need to be fighting another nation to be at war, the Cape Flat have their own war albeit on a smaller scale.
Let's throw all resources at our disposal at the criminals and in combating crime, these academic debates do little to help people in the front line so to speak.
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somaartakeit
Those men wearing pyjamas in the pic accompanying the article is that the gangs uniform? *looks confused*Report Abuse
Ubufebe
@MissBhakajujuWhose private parts are they playing with hehehehehehehe
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Dzel
RTX_THE_GHOSTZille for president period
==========================
Why?
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BaleliM
If Zille ignores this, people would be complaining about how racist she is and how she does not care. now she has identified the problem and needs the state to help and you are saying she can not handle the heat.Truth is that her province runs far better than other ANC run provinces and that truth unerves a lot of people.
I love ANC but am not blind to the many things that are wrong.
Would we rather leave innocent people to die just because the province is run by a white person?
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MissBhakajuju
what is a detailed Job description of an S.A soldier, in recent years ?...... Anyone with a better understanding ??the borders are wide open, so no need for them to patrol.
thers no war currently in s.a.
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KeRataBasadi
They don't need the army here, they need to get the cops to do their jobs, otherwise unban PAGAD.Report Abuse
cocolucho
@mommaCIts not only the police that have let this situation slide to this point. The community are to blame as well, if they didn't put gangsters on such a high pedastal none of this would be happening. Last year when the army went in to lavender hill, the gangsters all got together to fight the army. The community knew about this and knew which gangs were involved, yet refused to help when the army asked for help in identifying which gangs were behind that. My point is that if they want this problem gone then they too should with info.
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DA-DBN-GUY
DzelLet's give credit where it is due, at least this this time she chose to act instead of being her argumentative self but residents had to go to the media first
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I agreed with the rest of your comment but not the excerpt above. Zille always acts but is stymied most of the time by the anc rat Tony, COSATU, SADTU and the like. Instead of assisting in the problems the WC does have they only seem to exacerbate the situation with insinuations and accusations none of which have ever stuck.
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
cocolucho - Yeah, the community is to blame as well. For protecting the gangsters.Report Abuse
Ubufebe
@cocoluchoYou ever heard of the word "intimidation" In gangland, if you talk then you become a problem for the gangsters.....
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sh!tFaceSamsung
MissbhakaJUJU - ouch! playing with private parts nehh - hahahaa can't stop laughingReport Abuse
Dzel
BaleliMTruth is that her province runs far better than other ANC run provinces and that truth unerves a lot of people.
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How so, just a few days ago people were throwing human waste on the streets to protest against her provincial government.
Have you seen the news lately, have you seen how life is for Khayelitsha's squatters after Liesbieck flooded its banks. I bet you if you went to Khayelitsha, Gugs and Nyanga and repeated this statement about WC being the best run province they will look back at you with blank faces because that is not they province they live in or know.
Yes if you live in affluent parts of Cape town I am sure you have reason to believe this but the experience is not shared by all suburbs.
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MommaC
cocolucho.... and what happens to the people who gave up the names once the army clears out and the cops return to their coffee and doughnuts? Not like the cops will come back out if they phone them at night or if they will stop 'losing' dockets which will allow the gangster free reign to come back and make sure the person doesn't snitch on them again
Brooms and mops don't work too well against guns and knives. The community is not protecting the gangs, they are protecting themselves from the gangs ire.
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MsKinkyakaKamaSutra
While the SA police service have deployed extra resources to these areas, gang violence has continued unabated. It is clear that the current situation is beyond the capacity of the SAPS to control,” she said.****************************************************************************************************
Some SAPS members are on the gangs payroll
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - WCape has HALF as many protests as Gauteng. Like I keep saying, a big problem is the influx of people from the ECape. You can build toilets and houses till they flow out of your ears, but when people stream in from other provinces, you aint gonna make progress.But yeah, lets compare townships in Cape Town, to townships all over the country. Are you trying to tell us that the townships in ANC provinces are better?
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - You need to stop hating on the 'affluant' suburbs. Its those people that pay taxes so that you can get grants each month. So that you can get an RDP house. So that you can get free education.Report Abuse
BaleliM
@ Dzel, are you sure you want us to compare notes? It would take a year. All that you have mentioned and more is happening in all the provinces and i see no one going on and on about it.The woman has come up with a possible solution and she is being shot down and yet we go on and on about crime in the country.
How about removing those blinds off your eyes and look at this issue with clear vision.
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DA-DBN-GUY
DzelFact is the WC is the best run province in the country and no amount of you trying to distract from the truth will change it. It is the only province to receive clear audits, uses all of its budget accordingly and is corruption free. You dont really expect the DA to sort out the mess the anc created of the WC in a few short years do you? especially with the opposition they face?
The same can be said of the affluent areas of Gauteng who think their province is well run. But speak to the township folk and they will disagree.
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Danielrjvvuren
It's a reasonable request? It does seem like an issue in the area, and the state could give a helping hand, but the flip side again is that our defense forces are stretched as it is. I have a friend who entered into the SAPS academy here in Durban and all I could think about was shame a life of middle class, but its a calling like any other. Requesting help does not show defeat it only shows that there is a serious problem.Report Abuse
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfricaDzel - You need to stop hating on the 'affluant' suburbs. Its those people that pay taxes so that you can get grants each month. So that you can get an RDP house. So that you can get free education.
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... and people from the townships don't pay taxes?
Since when do we run some suburb better than others because if tax collected from these suburbs, doesn't the Bill of rights guarantee equal services for all or did the DA miss that part?
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Dzel
BaleliM@ Dzel, are you sure you want us to compare notes? It would take a year. All that you have mentioned and more is happening in all the provinces and i see no one going on and on about it.
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We can compare notes if you want but the point is simple, townships and the Cape Flats are neglected so this CT is the best run city cr*p is true for some suburbs and not others so let's stop flaunting this as if Khayelitsha is some small haven cause it is not.
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "... and people from the townships don't pay taxes? "Not as much, no.
"Since when do we run some suburb better than others because if tax collected from these suburbs"
Who says they do? You forget, that people living in suburbs put in more cash into making their neighbourhoods look pretty. Thats not a sin. At least they are not throwing their own waste in the streets. People in suburbs pay for their own toilets, own houses. If you compare the costs, then townships cost ALOT MORE than suburbs to maintain.
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - Best run province/city in South Africa yeah. Mind you, we have 'suburbs' in Gauteng, ECape, NCape, Natal...But Dzel is only making a stink about WCape provinces...
I wonder why?
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DA-DBN-GUY
Dzeldoesn't the Bill of rights guarantee equal services for all or did the DA miss that part?
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Why you such a DA hater when the anc are worse than them? The anc seems to regard the Bill of Rights as toilet paper but any little thing that comes out of the WC you pounce on! I have yet to see you comment about the accusations made by Tony, COSATU and their friends that have all proved baseless and a waste of time and tax payers money..
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Shredder
@WakeUpSouthAfricaDzel - "... and people from the townships don't pay taxes? "
Not as much, no.
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You gotta be kidding me.
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Danielrjvvuren
Why is asking for help so wrong? Dam people it's still South Africa. Or would you want to see your countrymen suffer because of gang violence? Just asking for help not for the second coming of Jesus...Report Abuse
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Shredder - "You gotta be kidding me."its not true?
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Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfrica"Since when do we run some suburb better than others because if tax collected from these suburbs"
Who says they do? You forget, that people living in suburbs put in more cash into making their neighbourhoods look pretty. Thats not a sin. At least they are not throwing their own waste in the streets. People in suburbs pay for their own toilets, own houses. If you compare the costs, then townships cost ALOT MORE than suburbs to maintain.
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Again your logic is all over the place, council maintain public spaces like parks, roads etc and they provide services like garbage removal, etc.
Absolutely no connection between services rendered and the average value of properties in a particular suburb. You can either think about this and realize why your statement does not make sense or you can be your usual drama queen self and we will go round in circle for the next few hours as you show your indignation and self-righteousness.
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DA-DBN-GUY
DanielrjvvurenCertain sections of the anc would rather see the DA fail than to have them uplift and serve the people. THEIR PEOPLE!! Truly fukked up if you ask me.
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DJWinner
DA-DBN-GUYDJWinner
MommaC
DJWinner
Are you saying that the minister of police will ONLY help those who vote ANC?
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No. What I'm saying is ANC led provinces are not asking for army. Things are calm and well managed.
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What is your definition of well managed? Schools without school books? Unemployment? High crime rates? Provinces under national administration? Municipalities that are bankrupt? Officials involved in corruption and tender fraud? Provinces failing to pay their bills? Wasteful spending? Provinces education systems (EC) near collapse? provinces not spending their allocated budgets? Dude the list goes on and on and on!! Which part is well managed? Please enlighten me. If you can
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Well, some of those things you mentioned are also present in WC. I'm not denying them.
The point here is that those things you mentioned don't need army. I still maintain my point that ANC-led provinces don't need army. Somewhere, somewhere someone is doing his work properly.
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KeRataBasadi
@ TAGZENI know a thing or two about the army and think its not a good idea, thats my 2 cents, get out of province cops to investigate and prosecute gang leaders, having the army walking around with R4's and 5's will not deter a thing, get rid of the main culprits.
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DJWinner
MommaCDJWinner
Don't talk bull DJ. The army regularly helps out the cops in Pretoria. Hell, the cops here won't go near Little Zambia without an army escort and at least half of the roadblocks have army assistance. Last I heard, we were ANC territory
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You wish. Let's not talk lies now. We must give credit when it is due and admit that ANC is doing some things good in its provinces.
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Danielrjvvuren
DA-DBN-GUYI can't understand the hatred here? Its not like she is asking Zuma or the ANC to personally come and fight crime she is asking the state for help? How is that anything but right? Its like me asking for paper for my printer at work, I have the right to request printing paper to do my job properly, she is doing just that at a defense force level. I think some people do not understand the difference between the political party ANC and the government....
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Danielrjvvuren
And please guys the best ran suburb in SA must be New Germany in Pinetown... PFFFtttt ja ne.... joke of the day!!Report Abuse
MissBhakajuju
DJWinnerThe point here is that those things you mentioned don't need army. I still maintain my point that ANC-led provinces don't need army. Somewhere, somewhere someone is doing his work properly
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Please don't make me want 2 cry !!!
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DJWinner
So, it is clear now that if DA can win national elections, this country will be run by army and military. he he he he...so, these people can't manage even one province? How about the whole country?Report Abuse
MommaC
DJWinnerOh PLEASE. I've seen it with my own eyes. Even the cops in Pta admit that there are areas where they won't go without an army escort.
I have no problem with Pretoria but making out that it is some kind of utopia because the ANC runs it is just wrong.
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Danielrjvvuren
DJWinnerYou're such a troll you know that... They will have a good blueprint on how not to run a country written by the ANC..
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Magwabane
Where is my commentReport Abuse
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "Again your logic is all over the place, council maintain public spaces like parks, roads etc and they provide services like garbage removal, etc.Absolutely no connection between services rendered and the average value of properties in a particular suburb. You can either think about this and realize why your statement does not make sense or you can be your usual drama queen self and we will go round in circle for the next few hours as you show your indignation and self-righteousness. "
TYPICAL DZEL. He doesnt try and explain his thoughts, he merely evades the topic and starts his normal insulting. Hehe, whos the drama queen here dude?
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Dzel
DA-DBN-GUYWhy you such a DA hater when the anc are worse than them?
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A very good question you've asked.
You probably assume I just hate the DA for the sake of it and without any logic but that is far from the truth. I have considered voting for the party and even joined as a member briefly out of frustration after Polokwane.
When I looked at the party, it’s make up, its DNA in the form of policy and the shameless practice of window-dressing by a party who affirm blacks in the form of leadership positions to suit its agenda and oppose AA in the same breath. I got seriously worried about what I am getting myself into and allowing myself to be used to drive a pro-business and pro-middle class at the expense of the poor I realised this is not the party I want to belong to at least not under those circumstances.
All I want is for the party to take its black constituency seriously. Putting black faces in leadership does not change the parties DNA, it does not change the fact that they want us to pretend apartheid did not exist therefore policies to reverse the impact necessary. To add salt to injury they want to substitute race with things like training missing the point completely.
The DA stands for keeping gains from apartheid and not offering the same structural assistance that whites have been enjoying long before apartheid became law.
How do I support a party that seeks to keep my people poor?
How do you convince me that it is OK that black people are in the bottom of the pile in terms of everything that has to do with money; average wages, average household income, average property value?
The party needs to change first by changing its policy and then getting rid of the self-righteous two-faced bigot that Zille is perhaps then I will consider joining and voting for the party. I refuse to use my vote as punishment; I want to vote FOR a party and NOT AGAINST another party. Right now I see no factors pulling me towards the DA, all I have are reasons pushing me away from the ANC. I would rather not vote that give a party a vote they don’t deserve because I am fed up with everything that is going wrong in the ANC.
If people like me do not speak out then the DA will not fix what makes us unhappy and black people will remain a cost that must be kept to a minimum by business, you do not improve the standard of living by paying peanut wages which is what the DA wants.
Unfortunately it is easier to call me a racist than to think seriously about the point I am trying to make. Yes I use race as a point of reference but the laws that oppressed us were defined along racial lines therefore the solution should also be based on race. If this makes me racist then I am one proud racist who has the interests of back people at heart.
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - Are you telling me that townships dont have garbage removal? Lets see, in suburbs, they pay for their own electricity, water. In townships, its added onto the services tab, free electricity, free water. Free housing..."Absolutely no connection between services rendered and the average value of properties in a particular suburb."
And where did I say that?
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Magwabane
Il post again anyway. People we need to understand that the army is under national administration, thus Ms Zille cannot deploy the army since she is not the national head. With that being said its important to note that the army is an organ of the NB STATE, its primary role is to protect the every1 within our borders and beyond who is SAfrican.Thus Zille is not seeking the army for her own protection however she wants to protect residents of that area,if we can stop the petty politicking roll up our sleeve and unleash the mother of all campaigns for crime.Furthermore the SA army do not have allegiance to any political party they do not serve the ANC they serve the state. Political parties have come and gone but the state will always prevail. Ask Nazi Germany under Hitler, Facist Itally during Musolini, Bornaparte of France, Apartheid architact Verwod, Smuts and the likes in SA these were leaders that thouight they would rule forever but fate had other plansReport Abuse
Dzel
DA-DBN-GUYCertain sections of the anc would rather see the DA fail than to have them uplift and serve the people. THEIR PEOPLE!! Truly fukked up if you ask me.
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Now that I have explained my logic please explain yours; how does the DA "uplift and serve the people".
I get the corruption debate but what else.
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DJWinner
MissBhakajujuDJWinner
The point here is that those things you mentioned don't need army. I still maintain my point that ANC-led provinces don't need army. Somewhere, somewhere someone is doing his work properly
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Please don't make me want 2 cry !!!
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Why do you want to cry now, babes? Are you ok?
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KeRataBasadi
How long is the army expected to stand guard/play security guard in the townships anyway ? until they are gang free? when there are no more drugs or guns there ? How long will that be ? Zille wanyela weer.Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
MagwabaneThank you very insightful, so what you are saying is that Zille is doing the right thing? Asking for assistance to protect the people? We can all admit that the crime and gang violence there is rather high. Always wondered why? There was that Ross Kemp on Gangs where he was in SA but it didn't really tell you why.
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DJWinner
MommaCDJWinner
Oh PLEASE. I've seen it with my own eyes. Even the cops in Pta admit that there are areas where they won't go without an army escort.
I have no problem with Pretoria but making out that it is some kind of utopia because the ANC runs it is just wrong.
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No, there is nothing like that. PTA is probable one of the safest place in SA. I used to walk from Loftus stadium to marabastat after watching some night soccer games, but I was never troubled. PTA is safe.
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DJWinner
safest places instead of safest place.Report Abuse
BaleliM
DzelBaleliM
@ Dzel, are you sure you want us to compare notes? It would take a year. All that you have mentioned and more is happening in all the provinces and i see no one going on and on about it.
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We can compare notes if you want but the point is simple, townships and the Cape Flats are neglected so this CT is the best run city cr*p is true for some suburbs and not others so let's stop flaunting this as if Khayelitsha is some small haven cause it is not.
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And alexander is also running the same as Sandton that is across the highway?
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - The DA doesnt have BEE/AA policies? Mmm, thats strange.I think you are mistaking 'apartheid gains' for creating economies. CT just did a deal with British Tabacco, and their worldwide call centre is now in Cape Town. That will create at least a couple of hundred jobs. It does seem like CT is turning into the call centre capital of SA now as well. Hopefully soon, we will be the next destination after India.
Those are real jobs.
As for 'window dressing'. I hope you see the flaws in your own argument there.
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MommaC
DJWinnerPlease, I hereby extend my heartfelt invitation to walk through Mamelodi and into Little Zambia, at night, on your own and carrying a cell phone. Once you are out of ICU, we will talk again
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Dzel
BaleliMAnd alexander is also running the same as Sandton that is across the highway?
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I am not sure, Its been a while since I've heard complaints from Alex. Diepsloot is a much better point of reference for the point you are trying to make and I will not excuse the lack of service delivery regardless of which party is in charge.
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DJWinner
MommaCDJWinner
Please, I hereby extend my heartfelt invitation to walk through Mamelodi and into Little Zambia, at night, on your own and carrying a cell phone. Once you are out of ICU, we will talk again
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There is nothing in Mamelodi, I have friends there and they are not complaining. The problem with you other white people, you only complain about these neighbourhoods, but you don't even go there. You read some small articles in the news and then you start complaining. We live in those places, we don't only see them on TV.
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DJWinner
DJWinnerMommaC
DJWinner
Please, I hereby extend my heartfelt invitation to walk through Mamelodi and into Little Zambia, at night, on your own and carrying a cell phone. Once you are out of ICU, we will talk again
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There is nothing in Mamelodi, I have friends there and they are not complaining. The problem with you and other white people, you only complain about these neighbourhoods, but you don't even go there. You read some small articles in the news and then you start complaining. We live in those places, we don't only see them on TV.
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MommaC
DJWinnerYou live in Little Zambia?
When was the last time you heard of your hometown (Little Zambia) on the TV or in a newspaper article?
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Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfricaI think you are mistaking 'apartheid gains' for creating economies. CT just did a deal with British Tabacco, and their worldwide call centre is now in Cape Town. That will create at least a couple of hundred jobs. It does seem like CT is turning into the call centre capital of SA now as well. Hopefully soon, we will be the next destination after India.
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I am mistaking anything sir.
British Tobacco has always operated from the WC. Crediting the WC government for this is like crediting the government of the EC with VW for example deciding they are going to produce all P.olo Playas from SA.
Tell me me about this deal, why exactly are you crediting the WC, what role did they play?
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Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfricaDzel - The DA doesnt have BEE/AA policies? Mmm, thats strange.
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Merit based ... training ...
We've debated this at length, please don't waste my time on this one.
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MyPot
Let them call SADF, sometimes this blacks in Western Cape are somehow, i am black too but hai!, we are realy dangerous yooh!Report Abuse
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "Tell me me about this deal, why exactly are you crediting the WC, what role did they play?"Because the callcentre is in Cape Town in WC :P
Do you know why? Because the city is busy installing fibre optic links everywhere. I have a 100mb fibre optic link running into my own house. And its cheaper than a 10mb ADSL line.
With infrastructure development like this, you can expect alot more internet and IT businesses moving to Cape Town. A Swedish online flight booking company already moved their offices from Sweden to Cape Town. And this all creates jobs.
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "We've debated this at length, please don't waste my time on this one."And yet you are still harping on about it? We didnt debate, just you throwing hissie fits :P
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MicaParis
@ All! Good Day long time (Very busy ..just came back from USA)In terms of section 201 of the Constitution Act 108 of 1996 as amended, Only the President as head of the as head of the National Executive may authorize the employment of the Defence Force in cooperation with the Police Service. That section makes the President the Commander in Chief of the Army as such he is the one who the bug stops with as far as defence is concerned!
Section 18(1) of the Defence Act 42 of 2002 outline that,In addition to the employment of the Defence Force by the President as contemplated in section 201 (2) of the Constitution, the President may authorise the employment of the Defence Force for service inside the Republic or in international waters, in order to-
(a) preserve life, health or property in emergency or humanitarian relief operations;
(b) ensure the provision of essential services;
(c) support any department of state, including support for purposes of socioeconomic upliftment; and
(d) effect national border control.
Basing my contention on the above clarity, Comrade Zille is correct by seeking National Intervention not ANC intervention or help! Remember the ANC does not own the Government , it is leading it at the moment, the general electorate controls who lead the Government not the ANC, if the Public vote them out of Office well that will be another story as Zuma or ANC cannot do anything about that!
Once again Zille shows a lot of maturity and responsibility than lots of our Ministers like Comrade Nathi who cannot see that there is crisis in that area as Chief if the Police how embarrassing!!
Viva ANC viva the real unity in diversity....Mangaung here we come ...Alluta Continua!
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Secretary
Zille must swallow her pride and join ANC,because her help is in ANC policies. Her education is meaninngless without ANC. Her dance is meaningless with racial elements in her face in democratic RSA. Zillle please join ANC fast before we reach mangaung so that we can help Juju to put shower where it belongs. We cannot leave shower on the head of our president and expect ,in the same time, him to think.Report Abuse
masende
ZILLE LOVES JZ SO MUCHReport Abuse
BaleliM
@ Dzel- I rest my case. You seem to have all the wrong answers that make sense to you.Report Abuse
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfricaAnd yet you are still harping on about it? We didnt debate, just you throwing hissie fits :P
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If you miss the simple point that AA and BEE has to be along racial lines to address past imbalances and give more people to holding a meaningful stake in business then I can't.
Which part don't you understand exactly?
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Dzel
JUL 10, 2012@ Dzel- I rest my case. You seem to have all the wrong answers that make sense to you.
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What? Didn't I just say Diepsloot is under-served by the ANC?
Do you want me to say what you want to hear for you to understand the point?
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MommaC
Dzel?? if it is the ANC who is in power, and has been since the very start of democracy in SA, then how is it the DA's fault that there is still a social discrepancy?
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16-12-1838
Well said MommaC!Report Abuse
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfricaRe: fibre optic cables. Kudos for the Western Cape for insuring that in conjunction with government and private sector for ensuring broadband capability is improved for all.
So long as this project will filter down to the people and improve accessibility to all then I am a happy chappy. Do you know if this cable will be used by all CT's residents and not just business?
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DA-DBN-GUY
MommaCDzel
?? if it is the ANC who is in power, and has been since the very start of democracy in SA, then how is it the DA's fault that there is still a social discrepancy?
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Apartheid, turd forces, white elitists, white capitalists. Take your pick? The fact is yhat if implemented properly at inception AA and BEE would no longer be necessary in SA but we sit with a situation where the majority needs to put policies in place to help the majority. The anc has failed on a large scale and has only served the few cronies and families. The majority will never see the economic freedom because each elected leader serves their own family and friends first without serving the people that elected them. keeping the masses uneducated works in their favour and this will not change until the anc is voted out.
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LeratoMolele
she's trying to set Zuma up for failure....Report Abuse
1937
Orlando Pirates is the true democracy of this country where black & white maketh the brand.Report Abuse
DA-DBN-GUY
LeratoMoleleshe's trying to set Zuma up for failure....
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Zoomer doesnt need any help in that department! He is an epic failure all on his own
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LESON.1
how could one comment when a Hout-kop @Dzel just vomited his maggi 2 minutes noodle all over the place - I rather mind my tuck shop business ...
Nyeee nyeee nyeeee nyeeee nyeeee nyeeee
---------------------------------Logging Off------------------------------------------
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - And?Hows ANC BEE/AA working out for you? Zuma said that BEE must reach more people...
But unfortunately he is running out of relatives :P
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - "Do you know if this cable will be used by all CT's residents and not just business? "Was first rolled out to libraries and universities last year. And been rolled out to residences since last year December. Cost is R300 a month (100mb FO) as compared to R550 a month (10mb ADSL).
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tumzangwana
i think this woman has to be most practical human being i ever seen, plus its not like our soldiers are busy shoo.ting mofos out there so they must go help with this ish in the Cape. too many people have d!ed because of gang wars, at least she is coming up with a solution instead of shouting 'there is no crisis', whereas crisis is just staring at these ANC mofos in the face. i think this could work.Report Abuse
Dzel
MommaC?? if it is the ANC who is in power, and has been since the very start of democracy in SA, then how is it the DA's fault that there is still a social discrepancy?
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I never blamed the DA for apartheid but I do blame them for opposing policies meant to reverse the impact thereof.
Big difference MommaC.
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MommaC
DzelWhich policies have they successfully opposed?
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Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfricaWas first rolled out to libraries and universities last year. And been rolled out to residences since last year December. Cost is R300 a month (100mb FO) as compared to R550 a month (10mb ADSL).
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Isn't this a bit of a rip off, I get 2.5GB monthly and pay around R 250 for it and that is a rip off in itself as there is cheaper broadband out there.
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Dzel
MommaCDzel
Which policies have they successfully opposed?
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Don't tell me I have to repeat this again. The key word is not "successfully" but rather what you stand for or are opposed to (AA, BEE, Min wage, labour brokers, youth subsidy, etc) all of which benefit business and do nothing to improve the lives of the poorest.
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - Thats for the line rental. You cant escape it, unless you go 3G or GPRS.I pay R200 a month for uncapped internet at 500Mbits/s. Do about 250gb a month. Difference between fixed line and wireless.
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Dzel
DA-DBN-GUYThe fact is yhat if implemented properly at inception AA and BEE would no longer be necessary in SA but we sit with a situation where the majority needs to put policies in place to help the majority.
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Very curious statement right there my friend, care to elaborate before I respond
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16-12-1838
The fact that there is no law and order in S.Africa is down to the complete lack of due care, for all people in this country, by the govt and its ruling party the anc. The mere fact that Zille has to pretty much beg the president, after exhausting all available means, for military intervention in what is an extremely serious situation, only serves as proof of the govt's failure and not that of the DA.It is a sad indictment that those so blinded by their support for the anc cannot accept that protecting innocent peoples lives should be paramount, by whatever means available. By regurgitating the usual 'Wit Gevaar' propaganda and BEE backlogs (due to anc corruption & incomptence, nothing else!) you totally devalue any argument put forward.
In the same vain, by saying townships in the WC are any worse than those elsewhere in the country is just ridiculous and further weakens your moral high ground. A moral high ground, you must admit, that has only been earned because of the injustices of the past and not for any great humanitarian achievements in uplifting fellow black S.Africans. Facts do not lie and although the DA can still do a lot more for the very poor in the WC and to establish more support further North, they are doing a much better job than the anc ever did in the WC - even with one leg shackled by the rusty chains of valueless fools such as Tony Ehrenreich!
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OXOLOSI
Eish ama Khalanzino ayayi thanda i Gangsterizm and Zille hambo fesha emhlangeniReport Abuse
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfricaThats for the line rental. You cant escape it, unless you go 3G or GPRS.
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Then it is disingenuous to punt this as a solution for home use especially when it is not a solution for home use or there are much cheaper options. That said I am not taking away credit as clearly this is a business solution.
What we need to steer clear of though is the perception that the DA is alone in rolling out such infrastructure as government recently implemented a solution linking CT to JHB and Cell C is also in partnership to increase its network coverage.
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MommaC
DzelDon't tell me I have to repeat this again. The key word is not "successfully" but rather what you stand for or are opposed to (AA, BEE, Min wage, labour brokers, youth subsidy, etc) all of which benefit business and do nothing to improve the lives of the poorest.
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So they have had zero impact on SA and the current social problem STILL rests solely on the shoulders of the ruling party?
AA and BEE are covered in all of the manifestos including that of the DA. I did not read it as an opposition to the theory but rather a disagreement with the current method of implementation
Min wage is a difficult one as in some sectors the workers are content with lower wages but the unions are not (clothing for one - hard to compete with places like Bangladesh)
Labour brokers - well the only one on that front is Cosatu so I'm not sure where the DA fits in
Youth subsidy - again, that seems to be Cosatu.
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BaleliM
16-12-1838The fact that there is no law and order in S.Africa is down to the complete lack of due care, for all people in this country, by the govt and its ruling party the anc. The mere fact that Zille has to pretty much beg the president, after exhausting all available means, for military intervention in what is an extremely serious situation, only serves as proof of the govt's failure and not that of the DA.
It is a sad indictment that those so blinded by their support for the anc cannot accept that protecting innocent peoples lives should be paramount, by whatever means available. By regurgitating the usual 'Wit Gevaar' propaganda and BEE backlogs (due to anc corruption & incomptence, nothing else!) you totally devalue any argument put forward.
In the same vain, by saying townships in the WC are any worse than those elsewhere in the country is just ridiculous and further weakens your moral high ground. A moral high ground, you must admit, that has only been earned because of the injustices of the past and not for any great humanitarian achievements in uplifting fellow black S.Africans. Facts do not lie and although the DA can still do a lot more for the very poor in the WC and to establish more support further North, they are doing a much better job than the anc ever did in the WC - even with one leg shackled by the rusty chains of valueless fools such as Tony Ehrenreich!
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Applauding.....
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Dzel
16-12-1838The fact that there is no law and order in S.Africa is down to the complete lack of due care, for all people in this country, by the govt and its ruling party the anc. The mere fact that Zille has to pretty much beg the president, after exhausting all available means, for military intervention in what is an extremely serious situation, only serves as proof of the govt's failure and not that of the DA.
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But the army has been deployed to these areas on previous occasions the last time being only a few months ago, perhaps you missed that point.
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - Yeah, there are cheaper options. like the FREE Cape Town wireless user group (www.ctwug.za.net) - The joburg one has already connected Joburg and Pretoria to each other. Note, this is TOTALLY user driven. There are no businesses/governments involved. If you buy an anetenna, then everyone can use your antenna.3G/Wifi isnt very stable. Latency issues.
Fixed line is the best option, for business and home use (depends how heavy a user you are).
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16-12-1838
Thanks BaleliM. Dzel, no I did not miss that point - it is certainly no long term solution to the problem as this SHOULD be a police matter and it hurts me to even admit that that is what we need right now, at this time, during such an increase in gang violence given our past history. Perhaps you missed my point about the total lack of and continuous breakdown of law and order in our country under the current regime?Report Abuse
Dzel
MommaC,I am a bit busy to go through that argument again, I would have thought you understood my position on each of those items.
Instead of repeating the same things over and over again I would like to hear someone convince me that the DA is indeed representative of my needs, they have policies that seek to empower and enrich all of us not just business.
Why should I vote DA, this question goes out to all DA campaigners. Unpack AA and BEE as outline by the DA for me (please don't post lin.ks, discuss this point with a degree of understanding).
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Mporoz
I heared the British war ship is in the area why not ask them?(How on earth would you invite a foreign army fully armed to visit your house?)
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MommaC
DzelI am neither a DA supporter nor a campaigner for them. Hell, I won't even vote for them. The problem I have is simply with your distortion of the facts. Most of the stuff you mentioned is Cosatu issues and not DA issues. So why would anyone want to vote for them in the disguise of the ANC?
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
MommaC - And when COSATU speaks about the DA, its not from a position of logic. Its from a position of political opposition.Report Abuse
WakeUpSouthAfrica
Mporoz - We had some US marines in South Africa a few months ago, doing training excercises.Report Abuse
Dzel
WakeUpSouthAfricaFixed line is the best option, for business and home use (depends how heavy a user you are)
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Or you can do what I do, load data bundles on your contract and use your phone as a modem. With HSDPA speeds are so fast you hardly notice the difference even when streaming video.
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16-12-1838
Dzel, can I just state that I personally am not asking you to vote DA. ALL I truly wish for is that you don't vote anc. That is purely down to their political track record since the late 90's and no other reason! This country cannot take such levels of corruption, incompetence and selfishness for much longer. I know you agree with that brother, so I have no objection whatsoever of anyone exercising their democratic right to vote...but just vote with your head and not your heart.Do not be influenced by political propaganda either. It happened to us 'pinkies' back in the day, don't let the same happen to you. Learn from our mistakes, 'Wit Gevaar' is absolute BS, we hold no political power and are grossly outnumbered...so why still all this fear? Division is not the answer and the only way we can have peace and prosperity in this country is by working together to break down those barriers and build up trust - the foundation of any relationship.
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WakeUpSouthAfrica
Dzel - Yeah, good point.Its can get expensive. I can chow through 3gigs in a few hours :P
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David-
Hi DzelWhat exactly are your needs; it would help us to identify the DA policies that would apply to them
As for the DA been opposed to BBEE
See this recienct speech by Lindiwe Mazibuko
BBBEE must be made to work - Lindiwe Mazibuko
Lindiwe Mazibuko
25 April 2012
The DA believes that broad-based black empowerment (BBBEE) is a necessary condition for reconciliation, redress and economic growth. As a young political leader, I am committed to making workable proposals to make BBBEE work for the many millions of young people who have yet to experience true reconciliation, not just an elite few. Over the coming months, the DA will detail its policy alternatives in this regard.
Definatly no opposition there
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As for the Army, they are not the answer. They just constitute a visible presence and backup to the police, which while it is nice it does nothing to resolve the current situation, I have patrolled with them in the past in my local township and all we did was ride around looking pretty, occasionally stopping and searching suspicious youngsters and confiscating some knives. They also backed us up when we did shabeen raids, not that we really needed them they just stood around chatting.
The SAPS needs to bring back the specialized units as requested by Dan Plato
=============================================================================22 Nov 2011
The reinstatement of specialized drug and gang units by the South African Police Service (SAPS) has now been affirmed by the Cabinet of the Western Cape Government as a policing need and priority for the Western Cape.
Cabinet’s confirmation at its meeting last week means the national Minister of Police, Mr Nathi Mthethwa is obliged to take into account these needs. I will also on Thursday this week be tabling the re-establishment of the specialised units at the MINMEC meeting.
Specialised policing units have proven to be an effective strategy as they offer:
• Dedicated teams working solely on specific crime categories
• Specialist skills and expertise needed to investigate, detect, arrest and ensure successful convictions
• Detectives who have full knowledge of often complex legislation and what is often sophisticated organised crime
• Specialised units are adaptable to changing environments and modus operandi and have the capacity to build up intelligence.
Many of the communities I have visited that are plagued by gang violence and drug fuelled crimes have all cried out for the re-establishment of specialised units. The Western Cape Cabinet echoes this sentiment. I will now be writing to Minister Mthethwa to inform him that specialised units have been identified as a formal policing need and priority for the Western Cape, for him to take into account, as contemplated by the Constitution.
http://www.info.gov.za/speech/DynamicAction?pageid=461&sid=23401&tid=49654
=============================================================================If this had been done then there would be no need to call in the Army, why hasn’t the SAPS implemented this and why is there no mention of this request in the article?.
I smell a rat
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Home1234
Ms Zille's concern is for the people of the Western Cape. They placed their trust in the DA when they voted for them, and the DA takes their responsibilities seriously. The anc is bending over backwards to make things difficult for the DA without a thought for the people who are suffering and dying as a result of this terrible gang problem. Zille has asked for help - not for herself, but for the sake of the people she has sworn to serve. The DA has made the Western Cape into a place that everyone wants to be. The anc politicises this crisis for their own benefit. They could'nt care less for the people fo the Western Cape, or in the entire country for that matter. Their lies, corruption, nepotism speaks volumes. The DA has my vote. They actually DO something, they don't just talk about it. Its time for us to vote with our heads and not our emotions.Report Abuse
16-12-1838
Thanks for the factual input David. It sure makes a change from all the nonsense spewed by the misinformed on these forums.Why does the DA not spend more time and energy educating those poor people who are suffering, those who have sadly been let down by the anc by being denied an education and can't read or have no online access, about the good that your party does for all S.Africans (not just those in Camps Bay and Bishops Court, as is the common misconception) so that they will make the right choice come 2014?
I think more pro-active and positive political campaigning is needed, by knocking on doors and providing evidence of all your achievements, in the first language of that particular person. At the same time taking care not to use slanderous, underhand tactics employed by the anc. This will certainly benefit the DA greatly and help people dispel their fears and to realise that you are not a 'white' party.
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David-
@6-12-1838Getting people to change their affiliation based on campaigns and speeches is actually very difficult, this is especially true in SA where the two major political parties are separated by colour and any move across party line is seen as turning your back on your race. This is true from both black and white views, any black person joining the DA is seen as a mindless puppet who is been manipulated by the white masters, any white person who is seen to join the ANC or god forbid the ANCYL, is seen as someone who is doing it for personnel financial gain. In both cases the person’s political ideals are not even considered.
This is what needs to change in SA, we are supposed to be free to exercise our own political views yet any attempt by a person to do so is roundly condemned if it does not conform to the majority view. This is what is stifling political growth in our country.
In order to achieve increased numbers the DA needs to publicly address all the problems that are afflicting the WC and sort them out one by one, they also need to put themselves above the petty slandering that forms part and parcel of South African politics.
The majority of the members on this form see to feel that white people will not vote for a party that has a black leader and the majority of its members are black, that is true for a minority, but the rest of us don’t really care as long as we feel that they will do a good job in running the country, I am actually hoping that Helen stands down in the very near future and that Lindiwe Mazibuko takes over as the head of the DA.
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David-
Where the ANC loses potential support from white South Africans is that it makes no effort at all to garner their support, they ignore us as an unimportant constituent, yet make a lot of noise because we tend to align with the DA.Is it because they have no idea how to approach the issue?
On their website it states
Membership of the ANC is open to all South Africans above the age of 18 years, irrespective of race, colour and creed, who accept its principles, policies and programs
(That is a point in their favor)
The ANC`s key objective is the creation of a united, non-racial, non-sexist and democratic society.
(That is a point in their favor)
This means the liberation of Africans in particular and black people in general from political and economic bondage. It means uplifting the quality of life of all South Africans, especially the poor.
(To me this means that they have absolutely no interest in getting white members at all, so why would we even try to vote for them, especially since they have been running the country since 1994)
PS white English speaking South Africans don’t really do mass rallies where we have to listen to some politician speak
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16-12-1838
@ DavidSo true, that is the fundamental problem...overcoming this 'soccer team supporter' mentality. I'm afraid that that change, if at all, will be a very slow process and my concern is that we are fast running out of time. Also, you can't teach people about the true benefits of democracy by words alone. It is all very well focussing on the macro issues now and that is what needs to be done at this stage, but I still feel the DA need to place more resources and emphasis on making the less fortunate aware of the party's achievements to date.
I think it is also right that Zille stands down soon and allows Mazibuko to flourish under her watchful eye. I'm sure the fact that the tripartite crowd is tearing itself apart is a blessing in disguise too, it is now obvious to all what their real agenda is. Let Mazibuko take over the reins so that she can capitalise on this good fortune.
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Dzel
I see a number of posts addressed to me. Sorry guys hectic day, I'll try to respond as quickly as possible (where do i start).Report Abuse
Dzel
16-12-1838Dzel, can I just state that I personally am not asking you to vote DA. ALL I truly wish for is that you don't vote anc.
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I will vote DA if and when they address the lack of real transformation in the party. Similarly with the ANC if they elect a leadership I have confidence in and they show a commitment to address what plagues the ANC today I will vote for them.
But I have to be honest with you, as a black person and someone who grew up with a fair dose of politics my heart is with the ANC not because it is a black party but because of the enormous part they played in my liberation, I say being very aware that they are not a liberation movement anymore. I have absolutely no attachment to the DA but I can vote for them provided conditions are right.
As for the propaganda comment I am sure you are not familiar with my comments otherwise you would know I am not one to fall for propaganda.
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16-12-1838
No worries Dzel, a bit to catch up on ;) but your input would not be unappreciated. Your opinion is important my friend, I honestly mean that.Report Abuse
Dzel
David,I have absolutely zero confidence in Lindiwe. I don't think she is as bright and as capable as people make her out to be and have yet to see anything of substance from her. Thusfar she is what Americans call an Uncle Tom, too eager to please and is somewhat of a yes-madam.
We can wait to see what she comes up with but someone who swallows this non-racial BS inspires little confidence especially when it is the application of BBEEE that is the problem, not the concept itself.
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David-
DzelWhenever you talk about transformation within the DA, we bring up Lindiwe Mazibuko, who you then dismiss as a puppet, which is also how you view all other black members of the DA
So how do they need to transform to meet your approval?
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David-
What are you refering to herebut someone who swallows this non-racial BS inspires little confidence
especially when it is the application of BBEEE that is the problem,
I am committed to making workable proposals to make BBBEE work for the many millions of young people who have yet to experience true reconciliation, not just an elite few.
You both seem to be saying the same thing, so what is the problem
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Dzel
David,The majority of the members on this form see to feel that white people will not vote for a party that has a black leader and the majority of its members are black, that is true for a minority, but the rest of us don’t really care as long as we feel that they will do a good job in running the country, I am actually hoping that Helen stands down in the very near future and that Lindiwe Mazibuko takes over as the head of the DA.
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I have a serious problem with this view as it assumes that colour is the main determinant of how votes will go. It completely misses the point that someone like Julius understands well - as much as I dislike him he sometimes is very insightful - hence he has latched on this economic freedom bandwagon which has caused fault-lines within the ANC itself.
For the DA to really become they have to address core issues, electing Lindiwe as leader only puts a black face in leadership; what about issues that concern me and people who understand that we HAVE TO address past imbalances otherwise this will come back to haunt us big time.
May I ask if you are part of DA leadership, just curious.
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Dzel
David-Whenever you talk about transformation within the DA, we bring up Lindiwe Mazibuko, who you then dismiss as a puppet, which is also how you view all other black members of the DA
So how do they need to transform to meet your approval?
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That's exactly the point isn't it, her blackness will not address real issues. You don't seem to understand that I will willingly vote for a DA that is led by a white person as I would a DA under a black leadership.
I am not concerned about who is at the top, the party's DNA is what concerns me. The more faces you put to the public including speakers whose face is right for television whilst not addressing real issues the more condescending the party looks.
Substance is what I want, not black faces.
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Dzel
16-12-1838So true, that is the fundamental problem...overcoming this 'soccer team supporter' mentality. I'm afraid that that change, if at all, will be a very slow process and my concern is that we are fast running out of time...
I think it is also right that Zille stands down soon and allows Mazibuko to flourish under her watchful eye. I'm sure the fact that the tripartite crowd is tearing itself apart is a blessing in disguise too, it is now obvious to all what their real agenda is. Let Mazibuko take over the reins so that she can capitalise on this good fortune.
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Again, condescending and implies that we have absolutely zero political understanding and that there is no logic to how we vote besides ... what did you call it .... 'soccer team supporter' mentality.
So to you guys I am a brainless soul incapable of independent thought.
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Dzel
16-12-1838So true, that is the fundamental problem...overcoming this 'soccer team supporter' mentality. I'm afraid that that change, if at all, will be a very slow process and my concern is that we are fast running out of time...
I think it is also right that Zille stands down soon and allows Mazibuko to flourish under her watchful eye. I'm sure the fact that the tripartite crowd is tearing itself apart is a blessing in disguise too, it is now obvious to all what their real agenda is. Let Mazibuko take over the reins so that she can capitalise on this good fortune.
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Again, condescending and implies that we have absolutely zero political understanding and that there is no logic to how we vote besides ... what did you call it .... 'soccer team supporter' mentality.
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David-
DzelIf you read my comment a bit further up you will see that is exactly my belief , your sentence gets a bit lost there are you saying that they will vote on economic lines and what does julius understand?
What are these core issues?
Here is a section from the DA Vision how does it not agree to what you have said above
A clear acknowledgement that there is a long history of racial discrimination and oppression in South Africa, that it was wrong and that positive action is now required to make it right. That positive action must be targeted at individuals who still suffer the effects of discrimination, not at groups. It must provide opportunity to the disadvantaged without shutting off opportunity to the advantaged.
As for been part of the leadership no, although I have thought about becoming a member
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Dzel
David-What are you refering to here
You both seem to be saying the same thing, so what is the problem
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Lindiwe has not said anything but "I'll take a look at it", what I am saying is we have an implementable model that is being abused. don't reinvent the wheel, just address the implementation thereof.
The non-racial statement refers to a term that the DA uses to dismiss race-based AA and BBEEE which Lindiwe has swallowed hook, line and sinker; if this is the case then there is little hope that she will get this conundrum right. In fact there is little to figure out as I have stated. Net thing she will be talking about rewarding training and call that BBEEE, it ids not.
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16-12-1838
Thanks brother, I am not as familiar as others about your personal views so please accept that I did not mean harm with any of my comments. I just want to put my views forward in a constructive and civil manner and not knowing you personally, that can sometimes be difficult.I fully understand your reasoning and where you are coming from, I too grew up with a fair dose of politics but unfortunately, being Afrikaans, they were severely tainted with religious right wing beliefs. I soon realised such demeaning beliefs were wrong and chose a different path, so therefore require the same conditions as you when lending my support to a political party.
Like you, I only want what is best for ALL in this country, no matter which party is able to provide this. I have ultimate respect for what the anc has done for the liberation of my fellow countrymen, all those sacrifices they have had to endure during their 100 years. So I can honestly understand the attachment for so many, but those principals can only take you so far before the economics of reality take over - and so for that, their date of expiry has been reached.
Yes, there are many things that the DA needs to overcome to gain the support of the majority but although I am still not fully convinced, I do feel they are doing a helluva lot more things right than the current party in power. The people running the DA most certainly have better attributes and qualifications to empower them to do a better job, they are unified and appear to be relatively free from the corruption and incompetence plaguing the anc - on the whole that is down to good leadership, I cannot say the same for the anc and co.
Respect to you my friend for engaging in this civil discussion with me, it is people like you that give us all hope and I truly value your input.
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Dzel
David-Here is a section from the DA Vision how does it not agree to what you have said above
A clear acknowledgement that there is a long history of racial discrimination and oppression in South Africa, that it was wrong and that positive action is now required to make it right. That positive action must be targeted at individuals who still suffer the effects of discrimination, not at groups.
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I spot the problem right there, need vs race. This is what I mean when I saying the non-racial BS.
Was apartheid not implemented along racial lines since 1948 officially and even longer under the British.
Please break down this need based BBEEE, how will it work exactly.
Whilst at it are you aware of economic disparities particularly along racial lines/
Can you tell me with a straight face that there is equality along racial lines and if your answer is no how do you hope to sell me the idea that what you have just said is the solution?
Pity about you not being in leadership, I would like to engage with someone who has the power to influence.
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David-
DzelWhen you refer to the DNA I assume you are referring to the policies that embody the DA?
What policy changes would you want?
Actually if more of the top DA leadership, then the ANC will have to start playing the ball and not the player, this will be a problem for them as they have always focused on the fact that it is a white party
As for your comments regarding he soccer team mentality, unfortunately that is the current political mentality for both white and black south Africans, there is some movement which is seen as the smaller parties, but for the moment it is black (ANC) vs. white (DA) and the majority will not change their vote.
However this is changing as the new generation emerges.
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Dzel
Thanks 16-12-1838, I too believe in dialogue but I somehow get confused for a racist which suits me just fine so long as I get the point across.Report Abuse
Dzel
David-When you refer to the DNA I assume you are referring to the policies that embody the DA?
What policy changes would you want?
Actually if more of the top DA leadership, then the ANC will have to start playing the ball and not the player, this will be a problem for them as they have always focused on the fact that it is a white party
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Correct, I mean policy.
You are going the wrong way about fixing what is a simple problem. The DA thinks they can pretend to be fixing the problem istead of actually fixing it. Until the party understands this little fact they will forever complaining about voting along racial lines as they don't to to get it.
I personally think the DA understands what the stumbling blocks are., they are not prepared to change that is why their MO is obfuscation and window-dressing.
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Dzel
Guys gotta run, I'll address your comment in about an hour or so.Later.
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David-
DzelWhat is wrong with what she said, you say it is not been properly implemented and she wants to offer suggestions on how it can be achieved, she is not reinventing anything
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Dzel
Oh David,Policies I want:
- Genuine AA that seeks to increase black representation at all levels particularly at the top. It is pointless to quote numbers when all the dar.kies are in the mail room.
- Genuine BEE that seeks to change the face of ownership and empowers those amongst us who are capable and competent.
An end to policies that treat black people as mere inputs to costs and threats them with dignity including repealing policies that keep us subjugated like
1. mimimum wage
2. sound labour laws,
3. the scrapping of apartheid style practices like unpaid overtime, labour brokers, etc.
In short I subscribe to many of COSATU's policies and truly believe for us to transform the nation we first have to transform how we think and view fellow south Africans.
One's worth is not measured by the size of their bank account, the policies we implement must reflect this thinking.
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Dzel
David-What is wrong with what she said, you say it is not been properly implemented and she wants to offer suggestions on how it can be achieved, she is not reinventing anything
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Its called obfuscation David, perhaps this conversation will make more sense once she tables her proposal but I am not holding my breath.
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David-
Got to go chat more tomorrowReport Abuse
16-12-1838
Ha racist schmacist, a well travelled action of attack by those with little else to defend themselves! You got your point across very well indeed, thanks for that.In my defence on one of the points you answered, I don't think that wanting Lindiwe Mazibuko to take over the DA leadership is condescending - I genuinely like the woman and would like to see her do well, my personal opinion. Perhaps you were a little sensitive to the colour aspect, us 'pinkies' don't always have a hidden agenda.
We don't have to agree all the time but it is important to respect each others opinion so good on you Dzel.
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16-12-1838
Cheers David, thanks for your input...at last an intelligent conversation between well informed people without the usual trolls!Report Abuse
moralett
The security is not for the ANC is for the state, so now the security must deployed in Cape Town, this sandf must go their to protect the people. Those who said Zille must protect ist own people they are total out of there mindReport Abuse
David-
Hi DzelThanks these I can respond to
- Genuine AA that seeks to increase black representation at all levels particularly at the top. It is pointless to quote numbers when all the dar.kies are in the mail room.
= Since I have started working I have been bumping my nose against this, so it should be working, plus when I left NMMU 94% of my class (NDip Logistics Management) was black and the majority of them got jobs, I know this as I often bump into the at industry functions. As for getting to the top it’s tough for everybody and unfortunately the people on top stick around for quite a while making movement very slow, its like that all over the world
- Genuine BEE that seeks to change the face of ownership and empowers those amongst us who are capable and competent.
What ownership are you talking about as we have various forms in SA, and in order to get a share in most business other than sole ownership you need to be able to buy in to get a stake. The act does seem to give access to funding in order to achieve this. Also your multinational companies which make up a large percentage of our top companies are exempt from certain sections of the BBBEE act
Equity Equivalent Investment Programme for multinationals
The codes of good practice allow foreign multinational companies that do business in South Africa some flexibility in how they structure their empowerment deals.
In particular, the B-BBEE Codes of Good Practice acknowledge that there may be multinationals whose global practices prevent them from complying with the ownership element of B-BBEE through the traditional sale of shares to black South Africans.
In such cases, the codes allow for contributions in lieu of a direct sale of equity. These contributions, known as "equity equivalent" contributions, count towards the ownership element of B-BBEE.
http://www.southafrica.info/business/trends/empowerment/bee.htm#objectives
An end to policies that treat black people as mere inputs to costs and threats them with dignity including repealing policies that keep us subjugated like
1. mimimum wage
2. sound labour laws,
3. the scrapping of apartheid style practices like unpaid overtime, labour brokers, etc.
What you have stated above does not apply to only black people but all people in the workforce be they black, white, coloured, Indian etc
Not all whites work in cushy offices, we are represented at all levels of the work force, yet we are not always that visible as we constitute a small segment of the population
Why do set minimum wages and sound Labour laws keep you subjugated?
Unpaid overtime can only be used if all parties agree and it is often used when a company is in financial difficulties and they have a choice between that and the company closing
As for Labour brokers it either needs to be very tightly regulated or removed as there seems to be a lot of scope for abuse to occur
Cosatu has some good ideas unfortunately they are overshadowed by other issues, the same goes for all parties (ANCYL included) and groups in SA, if we could collect all these ideas and suggestions under one group without all the rubbish, we would have the best country in the world
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Printa
If its going to work, why NOT?Report Abuse
BraSipho
The army is now needed because the so called "police" do not do thier work!When last have you seen a policeperson walking around and preventing crime?
They arrive long after it happened and do not know what to do.
We pay tax and the criminals walk around freely while we live in fear!
Get the police qualified to do thier jobs.
But this is hard when they have had 2 criminals as leaders and now someone who does not even come from thier ranks!!
No wonder there are so many private security companies!
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junta99ekurhuleni
@ 1601201983@ Dzel
@ David-
Thank you for such an informed, intelligent,well articulated and logic-laden conversation amongst you gentlemen....must say , I've learnt a lot from this!
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Bhugaluv
We must stop politicizing any sort of conflict in this country because innocent people are dying on a daily basis.The gang problem in the Western Cape is very complex. These guys are not shooting each other because of drugs or turf but for revenge. “Maak die nommer vol”. Gangs in Cape Town are none like any, these guys don’t do drive by’s. They walk up to you and just shoot you five times in the face. There is only one way of stopping the gang war in the Western Cape, speak to the aunty in the street. Most of these harden gangsters grow up in front of these aunties. The aunty in the street will be able to speak to the Stagies of today. Tell them that what they are doing is bad and that it is affecting the community in a negative way. That harden criminal will listen to that aunty because he knows her and he feels for her. He will speak to his soldiers and the war will stop. Government wants to come up with strategies that will not work for these communities because they don’t live in these communities and have no idea of gangs. How can the SAPS/SANDF stop 5 different gangs from killing each other in one area alone? What we need to understand is that these guys don’t care about politics and careless about the police. So the army is not going to help. What is the army going to do? Shoot the gangsters?
By the way, I’m from Cape Town.
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