RobinX

This is utter BULL. We are supposed to be trying to get this country INTO the 21st Century, NOT back to the 17th C!!! Scrap this nonsensical suggestion!
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warry

Those courts use nepotism like he'll. Imagine the chief brother or sister stealing your partner or property like cattle do u think he will be found guilty. No, rural people will be screwed and will marry for the chiefs by fire by force. Siya solota maswati.
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RobinX

Warry. I totally agree.
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Pointman

Ignoramuses should not be dispensing justice even if it is traditional. Look at India where these courts are tolerated in rural areas. They are not even-handed like @warry says - the punishment they prescribe range from parading the "guilty" naked, gang rape of guilty women and flogging.

And the worrying thing - what restorative justice is handed down for sexual assualt - R500 for the victim or is the victims family browbeaten into accepting lobola - I know of an actual case.
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Right-Back-Khumalo

Well, I support the idea. This is not something new, in my area for example, this has taking place for years. People always ask here, what is the job of the King Zwelithini and his Chiefs? Here is your answer. Here is some of his duties...
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Pheli-Marabi

This is good .Why did it take ANC so long .
Criminals will be dealt with accordingly.
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warry

@Pheli, se ya bogosi gaseboele morago. Corruption only.
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Pheli-Marabi

@Warry
Moya kgotla ga a sekisuwe .Anglo-Dutch law e hloleile kgale kwana .Kgosi ene o go leba ka mahlong a mpa a bona gore yenwa ena o molato.Anto ho lahlela dilemolemo,a o neya ntho ya gago.
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Ramatlhale1

Sounds like a good idea but with the practice of corruption fast becoming a norm in our country....I dont know!!!! Because the very same corrupt individuals in power will be indrectly controlling these courts to serve their own selfish ambitions which will work well for them because most of the time the cases heard there are not in the space of the general public media.....But I guess if the very same people whom this system is intended to serve approve of it then it must be working for them.....But if not then it shouldn't be imposed!!!
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MommaC

I'm all for encouraging mediation but to elevate that above our constitution is just WRONG. This stupid, stupid, stupid bill is just another nail in the coffins of the rural women and any other person who is not 'accepted'. Can you just imagine a gay guy trying to find justice in this backwards system?

Time machine back to Feudal times.
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T.C.T

RobinX
This is utter BULL. We are supposed to be trying to get this country INTO the 21st Century, NOT back to the 17th C!!! Scrap this nonsensical suggestion!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Broer this is not nonsenical as you suggest our chiefs in villages do help a lot and thats a fact,if u have a seriouse problem point it out so ppl can educate or inform you how they work or excute their duties in the villages.21st century mean nothing village are still villages culture remain culture chief remain chief...do times change you or you change times?

warry
Those courts use nepotism like he'll. Imagine the chief brother or sister stealing your partner or property like cattle do u think he will be found guilty. No, rural people will be screwed and will marry for the chiefs by fire by force. Siya solota maswati
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

your example is so wrong and you mislead ppl with such example,LEKGOTLHA LA MORAFE is one of the most trasperant platform even better than court cause you will not find this caucus after cause that is practised in court which some times give impression of practicing NEPOTISM. KWA KGOTLHENG wer chief unfold issues he is assisted by headsmen and they deal with evidence and witnesses most of the time ,both parties are treated equally ad are allowed to give their side of the story. kgosi ke kgosi ka morafe game kgosi totobolo o olella matlakala..so pls dont talk bad about our chiefs if you dont know the role they play.
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Mgaraji

The problem in this country once the certain section of the population decide against the particular idea, we are bombered with all the wrongs, flaws and misery it will bring and we never get to hear the other side of the argument. Those who present the other side of the argument lose the right to be heard, lose media coverage and platform to express their views.

We need a balance reporting and analyses in order for us to be informed rather than being coersed to support one idea because certain individuals percieved to be always wrong therefore it is wrong, and particular individuals percieved to be always right therefore their side of the argument is correct without interogating facts.

We will never get to hear the advantages of Tribal Courts because it does not go down well with the certain portion of the population. What is right and what is wrong about it.

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Pheli-Marabi

Momma C wena you just want your 'right' to wear a mini skirt to a rural funeral.Good luck with the "struggle" (lol) my sister.
Anglo Dutch law has failed dismally in South Africa.

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lindsay

its not that wrong at all those tribal courts were always there in rural areas just for petty crime and also practice neighbour laws but the problem is how are they going to force their judgement and ensure that everbody's rights are protected.
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MommaC

Pheli-Marabi

LOL
Worse than that, I wanna wear trousers :)

Like everything, the law should be dynamic. It needs to change with the requirements of the era it is in. The problem isn't our form of law, it is the fact that we have a duel legal system - one for the rich and connected but a completely separate one for the rest of us
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Mgaraji

lindsay
its not that wrong at all those tribal courts were always there in rural areas just for petty crime and also practice neighbour laws but the problem is how are they going to force their judgement and ensure that everbody's rights are protected.
______________________________________
True dat, it just petty crimes. They simple need to be guided to operate within the ambit of the country laws with prescribed penalties this will relieve courts as they are currently battling with backlogs. Emphasis should be resolving disputes amicably. They must work with courts to enforce their judgement.
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T.C.T

Phali Marabi

Tjooo a ga twe rural funeral?
township funeral?
suburb funeral?
i thought funeral is funeral regardless the place one comes from.....just imagin im going to township funeral bye bye!!!

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KeRataBasadi

I'm not entirely against this.
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Dzel

The biggest problem with the idea is one is not required to study law or is guided by legal doctrines and law so you effectively have someone ignorant of all the important doctrines of law playing prosecutor, judge and jury. Then there are violations of the Bill of Rights like someone having the right of legal representation, the right to equality, fair and just legal process and the right to appeal the sentence. So we are effectively endorsing and legalising street / mob justice plus as the article states the process is likely to be riddled with sexist traditional beliefs and women are likely to be prescriptively subservient in this system.

I was watching Trevor Noah’s comedy show two days ago, as he states when the 1st world progress and moves forward we – South Africa – is likely to go against the tide and choose the worst possible options. Let us not lose sight of the political agenda here, Zuma is trying to buy favour with traditional leaders but it is rural residents that will suffer.

We need 21st Century laws, not laws that take us back decades. I understand Zuma grew up emaplazini but surely we should be striving to become a better country and not holding on to outdated practices that are losing their purpose and relevance.

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!#Sinudeity#!

If African solutions solved African problems...

Then why is most of Africa still a dive?
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T.C.T

Dzel

not all the time you need to study law,some issues dont need academical knowleadge and logic to conclude you talk like you have some seriouse attitude with our local chiefs but remember some issues wont be handled by them,cause they will be above their manadate and they will be transfered to those who studied law further and seems to know better than elders of the village
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RobinX

TCT. I have no problem with the existence of such courts, but with clearly defined and LIMITED jurisdiction. The talk here is of extending their jurisdiction considerably, to people with no knowledge of modern law, and this can only lead to corruption and/or disaster.
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MommaC

T.C.T

That is only because you are a heterosexual male who probably has a family connection with your local 'chief' and can expect all judgments to go in your favour.
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Lehido

Under Zuma we are doomed
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T.C.T

RobinX

my brother you are making a good p.oint but not that good enough,me and you can only assume that reseach and analysis wer conducted before this m.atter can be concluded! surely if amendments are done they will be in line with their (chiefs) capabilities and skills..they wont give cases that will be a burden to them (chiefs) Im sure you are sick and tired seeing c.ases after c.ases being d.elayed,p.ostponed,unj.ustifiable b.ails changinging l.awyers,t.echnicalities happening and some times they are t.ricks to dragg the m.atter from p.rogressing ZOOMA is the example of that...
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Pheli-Marabi

T.C.T what are you on about ? Akere go atwe ke ya loshong ko magaeng.Motse setoropong ,etc

Anglo Dutch law has failed dismally in South Africa.
Every one is on the take:
judges
prosecutor
policeman
prison warder
liars ,spelt lawyers
prosecutor ,the list is endless.
All of the above are earning big money, obviously they won't want crime to stop

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T.C.T

MommaC
T.C.T

That is only because you are a heterosexual male who probably has a family connection with your local 'chief' and can expect all judgments to go in your favour
>>>>>>>>>>>

lets not be insensetive towards each ada pls im not in the mood to fight LEARN from ROBINX plss...lets have a nice debate plss maaan
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!#Sinudeity#!

Pheli-Marabi - "All of the above are earning big money, obviously they won't want crime to stop"


Eh? What about the chiefs that get R60 million a year? Lets see, under the chiefs, someone who rapes a little girl, will have to pay lobola and marry her.
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lindsay

@Dzel

have you ever attended one of those courts just in an abservatory capacity, those madalas don't need no formal education to adduce evidence and interrogate people they can do it well even better than other legal prosecutors the problems are the right to representation is somehow overlooked and production of evidence is not regulated as well as the fact that judgement is not based on proof beyond reasonable doubts but on balance of probabilities. its funny that people call indigenous law outdated when they succumb to Roman- Dutch wich is also a fossil.
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RobinX

TCT: With respect, I very much doubt that much research was done on this. Mr Zuma is very opportunistic and was speaking to the traditional leaders, so obviously he is trying to curry favour with this significant interest group. So by dangling a carrot of greater power, he is buying their support. That is my opinion.
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!#Sinudeity#!

lindsay - "its funny that people call indigenous law outdated when they succumb to Roman- Dutch wich is also a fossil"

But our laws get updated regularly. While in tribal laws, women arent allowed to wear pants.
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Pheli-Marabi

!#Sinudeity#!

Chief are you constipated ?
You obviously have never attended such a tribal case .So i won't debate with you until you attend at least one case .If you so much as look at a little girl , the tribal elders will hang you by the ballas.Ask anyone ?

As for Zuma he promised SDU (Special defence units) to reduce crime in our townships.But after he was elected,i guess he forgot about his constituency.

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T.C.T

lindsay

well balanced analysiswe share the same mental feeling

RobinX

we can only assume about weda research was done or not,,However on the point of ZOOMA trying to manipulate tradisional leaders im agaist that idea or trick indeed he is n opportunist iwant to blv that TRADISIONAL LEADERS sees him for who he is they are not stupid as he might think rememeber the best way to kill your enemy is by being friend with him. ZOOMA is blinded by power
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lindsay

@Sinudeity

so are tribal laws . all laws and statutes are measured by the constitution if they are fair or not any law against the rights that are in the bill of rights is declared unconstitutional and therefore invalid so its not the tribal laws per se that are against that but community mores or tribal community mores of which a woman can not be punished by a chief because she wears pants as that is against section 9(3) of the constitution.
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RobinX

TCT: You make a fair point, so one can only hope your faith in the traditional leaders is not misplaced.
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!#Sinudeity#!

Pheli-Marabi - No, I havent attended a tribal case. The chiefs can handle small-claims issues. As for giving them jurisdiction as judge, jury and executioner...

This isnt Judge Dredd.
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T.C.T

Sinudeity#!

mchana im sure you will agree with me when i say BOTSWANA have the lowest crime stats, and it is because their laws are created and built on top of TRADISIONAL laws.and issues are mostly dealt by local chiefs per villages.
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!#Sinudeity#!

T.C.T - No, its because Botswana is HARSH on crime, its HARSH on corruption. In Botswana, the government doesnt curb the power of the law to fight corrupt government officials.
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T.C.T

RobinX

TCT: You make a fair point, so one can only hope your faith in the traditional leaders is not misplaced
>>>>>>

Look my brother in some instences if i may use that term their final descision is not all the time binding and final however it is influencial cause they are recogmised by our constitute,if one feel that he can go to higher institute they are allowed to do that.but as i said most of the cases they deal with are minor once like stock theft,land issues, stand etc rape,murers etc are dealt at high courts or magistrate depending on the magnitude of the case. hence those olden days ppl wer so scared of doing crime in villages cause they knew very well that wen tey are caught they will pay dearly not in a brutal manner as one can think and assume.. i prefer them (chiefs)
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RobinX

TCT: AGreed, but JZ is definitely suggesting something a lot nmore far-reaching than is presently the case, and there-in lies the problem. He is careful NOT to lay down constraints.
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MommaC

T.C.T

??????
Are you really telling me that a land dispute between a lesbian woman and the chief's brother in law will have any likelihood at all of going the way of the lesbian?

This is pure and simple Feudalism.
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!#Sinudeity#!

MommaC - Next thing they are going to write a law, allowing chiefs to sleep with newlywed brides on their honeymoons.
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MommaC

!#Sinudeity#!

mmmm back to ye olde Kings Night. Now wasn't that a quaint old custom.
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T.C.T

MommaC
T.C.T

??????
Are you really telling me that a land dispute between a lesbian woman and the chief's brother in law will have any likelihood at all of going the way of the lesbian?
This is pure and simple Feudalism
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

first of all lets corrct the use of english word (lesbian woman) chiefs DONT judge sexuality of ppl cause they are also informed and aware about changes happening around them and they see a woman not lesbian woman as you suggested however wat is important is the evidence of facts that suggest otherwise in order for them to rule the m.atter regardless weda brother in law is involved or not,again wen discussion is on progress ppl in the village are given a chance to come and listen to the case ....dont allow your imagination fool you...those oldmen are wise imtelling you...
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JohnStone

Outright rejection of tribal courts should be avoided. These courts are already in existence as we speak, the only gripe I have with them is that in some communities, not all, people are not treated as equals, this is the area in which the law must bring harmony and elevate the constitution above moral, religious and cultural beliefs.

Where people sit in the court should not be used as another reason to object to the existence of the court, why are these so-called "activists" not objecting to churches that have separate seating arrangements for males and females? Some of these churches even bar women from preaching and they support that stance with biblical scriptures.

Because this bill is proposed by the ANC, then the noise without substance must be elevated to the status of a fact. This bill has been there long before Zuma became president, but today we are made to believe that Zuma wants to use it to "win elections in Mangaung", that is hogwash, people who will vote in Mangaung are not naive as the author of this piece susggests.
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MommaC

T.C.T

..... and if the old man isn't wise? Must that community just live with it?

My problem is that our own President doesn't understand our constitution and has no clue about equality under the law. What is the guarantee that the various kinglets and chiefs are any less clueless? There are many instances where culture and the law conflict (that is across the board). That is why we have the constitution which over-rides everything else
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T.C.T

RobinX

TCT: AGreed, but JZ is definitely suggesting something a lot nmore far-reaching than is presently the case, and there-in lies the problem. He is careful NOT to lay down constraints
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

you are correct but It is unacceptable to hide behind TRADISIONAL LEADERS when faced with the results of ones incompetence BUT he may have a chance to win most of tradisional leaders in NKANDLA and part of KZN...
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MsKinkyakaKamaSutra

According to government, the bill is aimed at providing “speedier, less formal and less expensive resolution of disputes and promotes and preserve traditions, customs and cultural practices”.
************************************************************************************************\
In simple terms you want ot have wo.men in subservient postions with not rights ...............

if they are ra.ped the perpetrator will compensate the victim's family;
they are not entitled to inherit (feeding frenzy for lazy, greedy relatives)
ukugena........ if the husband dies automaticaly the brother takes over..............



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!#Sinudeity#!

JohnStone - Clearly the author is not as ignorant as some commentators that believe that the DA was in charge during apartheid.
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T.C.T

MsKinkyakaKamaSutra
According to government, the bill is aimed at providing “speedier, less formal and less expensive resolution of disputes and promotes and preserve traditions, customs and cultural practices”.
************************************************************************************************\
In simple terms you want ot have wo.men in subservient postions with not rights ...............

if they are ra.ped the perpetrator will compensate the victim's family;
they are not entitled to inherit (feeding frenzy for lazy, greedy relatives)
ukugena........ if the husband dies automaticaly the brother takes over
>>>>>>

You are taking the argument into higher places mmhhh phezuluuu...CASES that are above their mandate wont be handled by them So my dear stop being emotional about it you are not forced to use them
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RobinX

TCT: Ah, but he is careful to avoid defining their mandate....
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MommaC

MsKinkyakaKamaSutra

Exactly !!!!!!!
Worst of all, if this bill comes into place in its current form, they will have no other alternative to justice except being at the mercy of a misogynistic, out dated form of slavery which is dressed up as 'culture'
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T.C.T

MommaC
T.C.T

..... and if the old man isn't wise? Must that community just live with it?

My problem is that our own President doesn't understand our constitution and has no clue about equality under the law. What is the guarantee that the various kinglets and chiefs are any less clueless? There are many instances where culture and the law conflict (that is across the board). That is why we have the constitution which over-rides everything else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
if old man is not wise those on his side are much wiser and the m.atter is settled peacefully!!!! live with wat specifically? if a person is not happy with the ruling they must voice out their valid resons based on some valid points or evidence something that will convince the ppl handling the m.atter.you speak as if chief do eveything by himself without getting any help from adas!and that is so wrong..
ZOOMA understand constitution well an i assume he just taking advantage of the law and undermine it,now you are generalising ppl because of negligency of ZOOMA and you are wrong again. give me examples of those instances
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MommaC

T.C.T

Zuma is clueless about our constitution. He thinks that the majority have more rights than the minority and he has had a whole mass of his appointments thrown out because he didn't know the constitution.

Is a woman allowed, by tradition, to inherit her husband's property?
If the oldest child is a female, can she inherit her parent's property?
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T.C.T

RobinX
TCT: Ah, but he is careful to avoid defining their mandate....
>>>>>>>>

you must be aware that ZOOMA wen addressing certain ppl with certain age HE is good and he can win them, tone of voice,taking time to explain,expressing his experience by making them that he knows wer they come from etc BUT certain ppl he is a FLOP economy issues,education issues,health issues,climate change issues he is so so weak...ZOOMA is a kind of person you can make him your marketing manager in business he is childish sometimes he is uptodate with songs and dance(moves)
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T.C.T

MommaC
T.C.T

Zuma is clueless about our constitution. He thinks that the majority have more rights than the minority and he has had a whole mass of his appointments thrown out because he didn't know the constitution.
Is a woman allowed, by tradition, to inherit her husband's property?
If the oldest child is a female, can she inherit her parent's property?
>>>>>>>>>>>

He is not clueless,that statement was directed specifically inside the parliament NOT in the way you think cause those parties are not eqaul inside parliament some have more right than the ada hence he pointed saying to lindiwe (that is why you are on that side cause ur right are less AND mine are bigger than yours) is a wrong view to suggest ZOOM ZOOM is unitelligent to constitution..

YES a woma is allowed to inherit her husband property,YES if chil is oldest she can inherit parent property.
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MommaC

T.C.T

Is that your final answer or would you like to phone a friend?
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T.C.T

JohnStone

yes you are right but again if cases are treated like that its illegal as much as we have court and layers and judges that practise some illegal things NOT every wer you will see equality...go to CCMA and see how corruption works
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MommaC

Phoning that friend TCT?

Nobody has more rights than anyone else. Every person in parliament has the exact same rights. It doesn't mattter which side you sit on, you still have the same rights. Your geological position and your majority status doesn't give you two votes or more right to have an opinion.

Women cannot inherit anything in the tribal system. They can be given the right to occupy but not the right to own
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T.C.T

MommaC
T.C.T

Is that your final answer or would you like to phone a friend? that is the available answer to type of qtion u asked unless you want to come out the closet and ask proper qtion so i can address u properly

depending on want specific view u are pointing and im waiting for you to point it for me, YES in general ppl are equal interms of rights!! ARE you now telling me about by tribal system>oh pls! who said that? im telling you they have a right to inherit now u are disagreeing with me without facts

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MommaC

T.C.T

Which traditional culture has the female inherit the home? The youngest son gets the home
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T.C.T

MommaC

BATSWANA,BASOTHO BAPEDI almost all AFRICAN...unless you failed to be specific in your questioning you should have been more specific

WOMEN can inherit the property if husband is no longer alife and it is their property no person can remove them no culture can pressurise them to move out,however talks can happen if the women is intrested in marrying the brother or young brother of the husband and remember they are not forced its up to them if they are intrested if they are not intrested thats fine.and if that woman saw some new love elsewer its fine but she will have to build a new home for her and the husband if children are staying in that house unless that new lover has some money to build their own house somewer,cause remember that house belong to all of them woman and children...

OLDER WOMEN can inherit if siblings are under age or if siblings are not in the picture it automatically suggest she is alone and that property is hers,however on the note of siblings the last born is the one inheriting the house ause it beliefs that older child is the one taking care of the family and will soon get their own property etc....NOT SON ONLY as u wrongly assume last born...dnt try to twst my culture asseblieve i dnt interfer with urs
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MommaC

T.C.T

Are you from Botswana?
Hate to break it to you but the majority in SA are not Batswana
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MsKinkyakaKamaSutra

@T.C.T
Im not being emotional, curently there are places in KZN where ra.pe victims' families settle with perpetrator's family to compensate rather than prosecute. If the victims opt ot prosecute (which is the lawful way) they are threatened by their families.


@MommaC, I shudder to think of the wellbeing of rural wom.en..................
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MommaC

MsKinkyakaKamaSutra

If this goes through then our sisters in rural areas are F.U.Ked
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T.C.T

MommaC
T.C.T

Are you from Botswana?
Hate to break it to you but the majority in SA are not Batswana
>>>>>>>>>>>

DOES it make a difference if im from ther?according to statistics which are not 100% accurate but wat is suprising is you find BATSWANA in most of the provinces such as GAUTENG provincial stats 2010 suggested batswana are the majory,NORTHERN CAPE and they are majority of population that side,NORTH WEST obviouse,,,FREE STATE batswana and basotho are majority,MPUMALANGA mixed but batswana are ther.and part of LIMPOPO we have them especially near GOBLERSBERG so you be the judge....HOWEVER that was not the issue the issue is YOU are not the right person to argue with me wen coming to my own CULTURE AND ITS TRADISIONAL LEADERS including its benefits u mst just listen to me dear
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T.C.T

MsKinkyakaKamaSutra

@T.C.T
Im not being emotional, curently there are places in KZN where ra.pe victims' families settle with perpetrator's family to compensate rather than prosecute. If the victims opt ot prosecute (which is the lawful way) they are threatened by their families
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
YES incident like that can happen and they are happening even in higher court,remember settlement is not forced its up to the parties if they want to settle the m.atter and compesation took place based on wat is agreed upon.and you know very well that ppl love money and they can compromise with their family NOT long ago YOU women here in the blogg wer happy wen BONANG droped charges and you ppl said yes allow the girl to move on atleast BONANG is not beater blah blah blah CHIEFS ARE DOING A GOOD JOB
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MommaC

T.C.T

actually, the stats say that isiZulu is the most spoken home language and, I'd presume, that would make them the majority when it comes to having tribal chiefs. Batswana may be scattered about but they only have a relatively small tribal area in SA

Just because one tribe doesn't have the system of the youngest SON inheriting and possibly doesn't feel that rape is a minor infringement, that doesn't mean that the majority of the women under this tribal law will not be disadvantaged
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T.C.T

MommaC

MAJORITY saw the stats its fine and critisism are also de for the legitimacy however that was not the original arguement we started with Not one tribe it is like that unless you tell me that your tribe doesnt do that i wont argue with that cause u know better than me wen coming to ur ppl,,,or do you one to point SA tribe you know? your argumen is baseless and lack information wen coming to tribes specifically AFRICAN and i can understand that
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MommaC

T.C.T

That is why we have a constitution, so that NOBODY is treated differently - no mattter which tribe, sex, religion, ethnic group or anything else. Which part of my argument that this is against the constitution do you disagree with? Or are you quite happy having a Pedi chief telling you what you have to do because you are living in his jurisdiction?
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lindsay

i wonder what you people think the chiefs and kings are some dinasours from the past , some of these chiefs are lawyers like Mwelo Nonkonyana a magistrate ,Phathekile Holomisa a lawyer and you think they know nothing about law and section 35 (3) of the constitution and they are going to ban people. come on people, what makes you think that in rural areas women would be enslaved because those court are operating right now and women are not enslaved by the courts but by their famillies, look at the justice courts now some people have no faith in the justice system they argue it favours the rich and you think the rural one will be more. please.
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MommaC

You do realise that this means we are going to have at least 18 different legal systems with about 192 different laws?
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skwamasamabele

So directorate of public prosecutions is going to okay this stupid law? It will only be open to abuse, as 'chief' (parasite) ngcobo is currently demonstrating, judge, jury and hangman. He must be enjoying himself
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Sophisticated_Ignorance

Okay... my comment was removed... Lets put it up again:

Mhhh, mixed feelings about this one... On one hand, applied adequately, it would GREATLY reduce certain specific crimes affecting rural people like stock theft, etc. But on the other hand such courts are ill-equipped to deal with contact and hate crimes... meaning "newer" crimes emerging and gaining prevalence due to "westernisation".

While growing up in the 70's and 80’s in the rural eastern cape, we had a chief that laid down the law proper and in my 15 years growing up there, there hadn’t been a "hate crime" committed but one incident of rape where the perp was publicly humiliated and flogged repeatedly by the family of the disgraced girl, his family's wealth was halved in payment of "damages" to the girl/ family, etc...

Thieves were also dealt with severely and effectively. Unlike today where cases build up and drag for years... It was "justice" for the people and they welcomed it... But in today's climate, if the rural justice system is applied like back then it would violate a lot of human rights protected by the constitution.

My fellow Africans, don’t be quick to support this move because it has "anti western" sentiments, also "white" people, don’t be so quick to degrade and downplay a system that has been in existence for centuries before your forefathers came to these shores!

Collaboration and consultation is the only way societies can progressively function...and the sensationalist manner in which such topics are reported by the media are not helping... Such should invoke dialogue and not pitting races and cultures against each other...

I mean, most Muslims believe in Sharia law which is seen by “westernised” cultures as violations of human rights... and even Christians have the “punitive laws” in Leviticus that are just plain wrong versus our constitution... Laws evolve with civilisation and circumstances and so should debate!

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MommaC

Sophisticated_Ignorance

As a white person who lives in Pretoria, this won't affect me at all. My concern is for the rural women. They are only just starting to be treated like humans and I cry to think of them being shoved back off of those little steps. I know that there are areas where women basically rule the nests but there are also far more areas where they will be reduced, once again, to being little more than serfs
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Sophisticated_Ignorance

MommaC

I hear your concern but I have to maintain, i disagree with this comment "but there are also far more areas where they will be reduced"... First of all, this is a global problem of patriachial states. Not taking it away from the current issue, we've come so far in addressing the rightful place of women in our communities and to generalise like this and paint the whole male gender in rural areas as a people that "reduces women to being little more than serfs" is extreme...

Im aware of this plight but I'm also aware of progress made to address this.This bill hasnt been passed yet and it can still be challenged if the Human rights commision (and ALL women) oppose its implementation if it does what you're afraid it will do.

Why dont you challenge it if this is how you feel about it?
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MommaC

Sophisticated_Ignorance

I know it is a global issue and it breaks my heart that it is. I can't do much for the women in Pakistan and other places but I can try to do something for our sisters here.

We are seeing a resurrection of ukuthwalwa (in a manner that is so far away from custom that it is just horrific) and a new tendency of parents acting as pimps by accepting 'damages' from the rapists. That doesn't show a great deal of strides towards women being liberated. We won't even mention the beatings that nobody seems to care about. Will customary law help to stop this or will it just re-enforce it? I don't know but I'm not willing to take the chance.
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Sophisticated_Ignorance

MommaC

Again, if these traditional courts are better-equuipped they would have the competency and capacity to deal with such specific issues.
For example, ukuthwala is not recognised in my tribe as a practice but in the overall culture (esp aMaMpondo) it is a recognised practice. I dont know how it came to being passed but I can tell you this, no man would ever dare "thwala" in my tribe. Also, a lot of traditional houses have condemned the practice and it happens in an isolated area in the deeper eastern cape (Transkei - Pondoland).

That is the kind of dialogue that needs to take place, to put forth such issues and implement effective and practical solutions not just discard the whole traditional court system because of a fear that "men will reduce women"...
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MommaC

Sophisticated_Ignorance

Ukuthwala was a really sweet tradition. If a girl was undecided about a suitor but the families were leaning towards one in particular, the girl's family would arrange for her to be 'abducted' and taken to the mother's house of the suitor. The mother, aunts, cousins and all would then treat the girl like a princess whilst telling her just how marvelous the suitor was. She then went home and decided. It was never about rape or unwilling brides, it was simply a match making game in which the girl still had final say.

You don't mention which tribal group you come from but you have to know that some of your cultural traditions have been just as badly twisted.

We also cannot say one tribal custom is better (or worse) than another one. That is why we have a constitution. There is no discrimination.
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T.C.T

MommaC
T.C.T

That is why we have a constitution, so that NOBODY is treated differently - no mattter which tribe, sex, religion, ethnic group or anything else. Which part of my argument that this is against the constitution do you disagree with? Or are you quite happy having a Pedi chief telling you what you have to do because you are living in his jurisdiction?
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indeed constitution g.uide and p.rotect all ppl,and chiefs dont t.reat ppl d.ifferently like u w.rongly a.ssume ,let me r.ais something you seems to be l.acking at,PEDI chiefs wont come or go to KZN and o.vertake chiefs at KZN v.ersa v.ersa so your example is once again W.RONG and M.ISLEADING. chiefs dont f.orce anybody but make ppl aware of the wrong a.ctions or c.onducts committed in the l.and they r.ule or p.rotect.you must just forget with you ac.ademical l.ogic wen coming to i.ssues you have no clue of...im from the village and i stayed under those r.ules and l.aws the is nothing wrong with them most of your explanations i can see you get it from 3rd de.gree and s.pecial as.ignment d.ocumentaries etc and you think is t.aboo..and i wouldnt mind if my k.ids can g.row in my village though times have changed. WHAT ever info u have about how u see or think about chiefs is all w.rong u cant rely on sowetan,d.aily s.un,city p.ress ,etv etc..
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MommaC

T.C.T

What is it with people and their flippin assumptions. I don't even watch 3rd degree.

You are essentially saying that if someone gets treated badly and it isn't in your village, then you are good with it. If the constitution is crapped upon but it doesn't affect you personally, then not a damn will be given.
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