LKK "badly tormented by her ancestors" it's indeed an ancestor terminology.
She should have gone to Venda for a powerful sangoma for muthi so that no-one messes with her....EVER Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
Why are her tormented ancestors making their problems her employer's problems? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Blackstone.lebs
That's a step in the right direction. Well done CCMA and Labour Appeals Court. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Mosquer
The sick note stated that she was being "badly tormented by her ancestors".
Corrections: tormented by evil spirits Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
2shy2call
Ya my mom is a Sangoma I am telling you i am bringing a sick note from her for a year.
As a prophet myself I said Amen to CCMA and the court @Nokozile Uzothola ingane yentombazane iskhathi esizayo... Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
mphephethwane
now, sit back & watch how this ruling will be abused by others in their respective cases. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
iPhone4
@DubulAmanzi already at work I see. When am I winning the powerball? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
The company appealed, and the Labour Appeals Court ruled in Mmelodi's favour, saying South Africa was a land of many cultures and that traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture of many of the country's inhabitants.
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Hallelujah to this Amen.
@Tlakenyobehle!
If your uncle cannt read and write dont think all cannt things have changed sangomas can read and writes,most of today sangomas some are from universities,colleges and so forth have some life please nana wa utlwa?
I receive sick notes stating..." Medical Condition" from Qualified Medical Doctors, they are never challenged....I dont see a problem with that sick note. South Africa is a land of many cultures and that traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture of many of the country's inhabitants. Amen to that
As its described this is a horrendous decision. It will open the door to every kind of dishonest and fraudulent claim by the unscrupulous.This precedent will definitely have to be reviewed. Unfortunately it is also obvious that those sitting on the LCA have about as much jurisprudence as your average class bully who failed grade 3. Report Abuse
These kids of rulings are screwing up our economy and our country. The employer should appeal this nonsensical ruling. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dubul'Amanzi
@iPhone4 lets leave the money for now, lets talk about life, U Nkulunkulu uthi ungasadli kakhulu amagwinya, and uyeke i danone/ yoghurt etc, izokunikeza inkinga. Report Abuse
Dubul: Thanks. A very good morning to you. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
mjimara
This "precedent" is long overdue. It is good for the development and recognition of customary practices and common law. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Orekile
I totally agree with the Labour Appeals court, indeed no western culture should be allowed to dominate our south african cultures. Thumbs up labour court!!!! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
golezwa
@iPhone4
Is there a registered body like HPCSA for Sangomas?
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I think there's is, i've heard of South African Counsil for Traditional Healers, am not sure though Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Mosquer
Dubul'Amanzi
As a prophet myself
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Prophet of Baal or prophet of God? just asking... Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Obviously those of you celebrating this "win" have no idea of what has just occurred here. All you see is the "triumph" of one side over another. As if it were soccer. My friends you have just opened the door for every demon peddling liar and cheat to steal from his/her employer. When it comes to government that would be us, the taxpayer footing the bill for this madness.
Whats the bet Zuma will be using this defence when he eventually ends up in court on his fraud charges. Report Abuse
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.
Dont forget to report back on your successful fraud. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
jerico
that is a victory to each and every breadwinner.
i will be a sangoma year from now. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
So if any old poep can claim to be a sangoma, could I now write a prescription for a salary raise as is determined by some obscure ancestor and will the company have to fulfill that prescription?
(mouse running frantically on treadmill) Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Tsek
Do we still have mamparas who believes in ancestors/ witchdoctors??? Report Abuse
@Dubul'Amanzi I don't eat any of those nje lol! Oh Robin gonna be a brilliant one for sure Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Boogie1985
@Mr RobinH are you amused simply because you are part of the minority which believes some ethic traditions and believes are not as important as those of the western society????
Good judgement as an African who did not migrate to this continent I fully support the labor court ruling, our culture with this constitution is being undermined , for the first time I`m glad Zuma is in power and thanks for appointing the new constitutional court judge president, the results are there for everyone to see , this is bringing back ubuthu. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
THUTLWANE
Big up to CCMA and Labour Court indeed. Africans are becoming a part of the world. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
NeoBaBe
@ MommaC
Don't ask that, they might come for u.. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@amaBok
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.
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Dont forget to report back on your successful fraud.
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Labour Department and CCMA proved that there's no fraud on that Bok.lol Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
I have now opened three e-mail addresses. Cyndi Sangoma (nice ring to that), Cyndi Employee and Cyndi Employer. After extensive consultations with my Sangoma, we e-mailed my Employer to say that my ancestors took great exception to the Employee having to do filing. The Employer said that she wouldn't accept the medical note as it was not signed. After more extensive consultation we pointed out that a signature was irrelevant as the ancestors couldn't hold a pen too well. We are awaiting a reply Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
Important facts are:
1. she requested UNPAID leave,
2. the leave was turned down - why?
3. out of desperation she went on leave anyway and can prove her whereabouts.
It is important to note the nature of the "sickness" is not as per usual definition, it is said when one has an ancestral calling it manifests itself in their health and when this calling goes unanswered ones health can deteriorate possibly leading to death therefore this story needs to be put in its proper context whatever one believes in. This is not about one waking up day and deciding to get a sick note.
The question is whether the actions of both employer and employee reasonable., I think she has a strong case particularly when one looks at some flimsy reasons some people get booked off work for like suffering from stress. Surely if she believed her life was in danger the employer should have been more understanding, the judgement makes complete sense to me. Report Abuse
I have now opened three e-mail addresses. Cyndi Sangoma (nice ring to that), Cyndi Employee and Cyndi Employer.
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Hi MommaC, I don't know if making fun of African beliefs and culture is such a good idea but I suppose this is a free country so you can do ads you please. Try understanding the culture first. Report Abuse
Boogie. Not quite that. I believe that certain "traditions" simply have no place in a rational world. I couldn't give two hoots whether one is eastern, western, african, alien, or whatever. Let's not get ready to play the completely irrelevant race-card now please. Race has nothing to do with rational thinking.
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Rational thinking you say, trust me these culture are no more pathetic than a belief that is so devoid of logic and thin on fact it is held together by thin threads of blind faith and complete naivety. There is no religion that trumps Christianity on the rational thinking stakes but I don't see you standing in front of a church telling those people just how irrational their beliefs are. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
SOLUTIONS
I do not know if I want to laugh or cry, laugh at the idiocy or cry because I want to build a country with some people who are still 2000 years behind. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MaselaMaboea
@Tsek u dont what u r talking about boss but please note, For me, the important thing is to recognize and honor those who came before me. These are both ancestors of blood and ancestors of spirit. Because of them, I have blood and genes and life. Because of them I have heritage and traditions and practices. They are my roots and foundation - if it weren't for them, my life would be much poorer, if I even existed at all. and does not mean I am mampara...on which planet r u from? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Mosquer
Dubul'Amanzi
Hi Mosquer, of God..
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Ohhh!! I see Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Shredder
Hahahahahaha, Ja nee. Mzansi for sure. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
Dzel
This has absolutely nothing to do with African culture. Nowhere in African culture is there condoning of charlatans. In the old days, you studied to be a Sangoma with a known Sangoma 'master' and your studies took decades. The old Sangomas wouldn't take you on as an apprentice if they didn't know you as the knowledge they were passing on had to go to a person who would not mis-use it. They didn't take just anyone off the street and they didn't charge money for the teaching. It was a calling, not a quick buck.
If you think this sh!t where every dumbass crook can wake up in the morning and call themselves a 'sangoma' - then you are so far from the African Culture that you can't even see it. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@Dzel
Important facts are:
1. she requested UNPAID leave,
2. the leave was turned down - why?
3. out of desperation she went on leave anyway and can prove her whereabouts.
It is important to note the nature of the "sickness" is not as per usual definition, it is said when one has an ancestral calling it manifests itself in their health and when this calling goes unanswered ones health can deteriorate possibly leading to death therefore this story needs to be put in its proper context whatever one believes in. This is not about one waking up day and deciding to get a sick note.
The question is whether the actions of both employer and employee reasonable., I think she has a strong case particularly when one looks at some flimsy reasons some people get booked off work for like suffering from stress. Surely if she believed her life was in danger the employer should have been more understanding, the judgement makes complete sense to me.
==============
You're a man old little boy,well put and this make sense now to many on this article I hope.
I do not know if I want to laugh or cry, laugh at the idiocy or cry because I want to build a country with some people who are still 2000 years behind.
=======
You want to do all,go on do all.
"South Africa was a land of many cultures and that traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture of many of the country's inhabitants."
------------------
Thats true. if it is not you culture we dont expect you to understand. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
dennilton1
I SALUTE LABOURT COURT, THE RULING WAS REVELENT AND ITS A VICTORY TO ALL SAFRICAN christian and ANTICHRISTIAN. ppl like mosquer, solution and others are doomed by bbl because they are also appease the gods, the like of peter, abraham, john, jesus etc because those died more 2000 yrs ago. Report Abuse
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The only khekhe that's recognized in my life mine unfortunately or fortunately(however you look at it) I'm one of those people with no sweet tooth..
Now am starting to doubt you, shouldn't you know that already? ci ci ci Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
MommaC
This has absolutely nothing to do with African culture. Nowhere in African culture is there condoning of charlatans.
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You start off on a wrong note by trying to teach African culture to an African, it does not suit you MommaC. Now let those who know about these things school you. Ancestors are said to choose people through whom they will communicate with the living so one would be given the gift of vision – for a lack of a better word – which we call a calling and one has to answer to this calling. Some say this gift is passed on from generation to generation for some it is a gift they are born with, etc, etc.
There will be signs of this gift, perhaps one can have visions, in other cases it takes someone to identify a child with that vision. Point is neither of us know how exactly she came to know of this gift so neither of us is qualified to comment on whether the calling is real or not least of all you MommaC.
All I know is my mother went through something like this; I was p-d off, had difficulty to understand and come to terms with but it is something I had to accept and learn to leave with. Just let her be MommaC, she would not have attended ukuthwasa had she not thought her calling is genuine, stop assuming you know more than the rest of us.
The sick note stated that she was being "badly tormented by her ancestors".
Corrections: tormented by evil spirits.
==========================
What are you trying to say wena Mosquito?
someone is coming back to the right senses now, why Africans should be subjected to the western way of doing things... Izango should be be given power that's who we are as black people... Report Abuse
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The only khekhe that's recognized in my life mine unfortunately or fortunately(however you look at it) I'm one of those people with no sweet tooth..
Now am starting to doubt you, shouldn't you know that already? ci ci ci
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@iPhone4 lol, never doubt me,ngikuthsela iqiniso haha. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MaselaMaboea
@Mosquer
Mayb u ancestors r evil spirits chief, not mine ok... Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Mogwapatholo
MommaC
So if any old poep can claim to be a sangoma, could I now write a prescription for a salary raise as is determined by some obscure ancestor and will the company have to fulfill that prescription?
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Stop diverting the objective of this rulling, has a doctor ever prescibed a salary increase or is it about health reasons?
Now this is what ai call african. Don't get me wrong i don't trust any sangoma or believe in those thing but i'm saying let's give ppl equal chances to practice their believes and culture.
RobinH
HMMM THANKS MODERATOR FOR THAT ABSURD REMOVAL:
DZEL: Then you have clearly not read any of the posts I have written on the irrationality of the oh-so-many born-again folk that pepper this site. I do it all the time.
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Do you believe in ghosts Robin?
Let's take this discussion to the next level: do you believe we as human beings have a spirit, if so what is this spirit and what happens to this spirit when one dies? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Tsek
MaselaMaboea
@Tsek u dont what u r talking about boss but please note, For me, the important thing is to recognize and honor those who came before me. These are both ancestors of blood and ancestors of spirit. Because of them, I have blood and genes and life. Because of them I have heritage and traditions and practices. They are my roots and foundation - if it weren't for them, my life would be much poorer, if I even existed at all. and does not mean I am mampara...on which planet r u from?
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plz next tym halla wen u see them. well chief thats ur believe im not judging you but nna i only believe in Jesus not bunch of dead spirits.. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@amaBok
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.
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Dont forget to report back on your successful fraud.
=======
Labour Department and CCMA proved that there's no fraud on that Bok.lol
So when did your ancestors start the tormenting Katataka?
You are making an awful lot of assumptions there city boy.
I presume you don't understand a computer because it isn't a traditional African tool and, as such, cannot be learned? Or that christianity cannot be understood in Chiina because it is not a traditional Chiinese belief and cannot be taught?
I never said that it was not a calling. What I said was that you cannot wake up in the morning and call yourself a Sangoma. It is a long arduous training - not a few long weekends. She may well be an Itewasa but a Sangoma?
I see those leaflets around town and I hear the stories about how 21 year old boys are running initiation schools and IT MAKES ME SICK. It is contributing absolutely nothing to the country or the respect of culture. It is simply making it into a sick parody of what it once was Report Abuse
F*ck yeah next time I want to get away from my job I'm going there! I have such nice ancestors as DF Malan and connected to Verwoerd too I can just be like "OMG the Anti-Christ is saying I must look out for the Rooi Gevaar!!! They are tormenting my brain!!!" AND then run around with undies on my head eating a BANANA! Can't wait!!
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Lol.
@Tlakenyobehle!
but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to do
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So you want to take it to the next level. Which one would that be. A debate about whether ancestors and angels speak the same language? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
amaBok
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@amaBok
@KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.
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Dont forget to report back on your successful fraud.
=======
Labour Department and CCMA proved that there's no fraud on that Bok.lol
So when did your ancestors start the tormenting Katataka?
==========
They didnt for now but on Monday morning they'll start tormenting me or they will start on Sunday afternoon.
DZEL
It is important to note the nature of the "sickness" is not as per usual definition, it is said when one has an ancestral calling it manifests itself in their health and when this calling goes unanswered ones health can deteriorate possibly leading to death therefore this story needs to be put in its
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I just p!ssed myself reading the above with laughter, and then after the above you put "proper context" thanks for a great laugh.
Dzel: What I believe is irrelevant, but for the record, I don't find the notion of intangibles like Souls, ghosts etc. of any use to me. When I die I die. My hereafter is the impression I make on the world around me. What next level could there be to a discussion of the irrational? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
May be this is the right time for pastors to issue sick note too since they chase the demons tormrnting people with Jesus' name. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
RobinH
Wasn't that the thing from "What dreams may come"? We all make our own afterlife. It is a perception of our self conscious or some physiological thing way above my brain function? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
guiliano
this is a right step to the right direction, now sangomas should get their own rubber stamps. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Katakata
Best idea ever! I'm going to the pope and asking him to pardon me from work because it interferes with my ability to bring on the end of the world and I would need 666 days off. Hahah lets do it and go contest it in court. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
JahNeh
I am amused that so many of you belittle the African belief in ancestors, but quick to embrace the western belief of some supper being residing somewhere in the sky.
Personally to me if one is far fetched, I don't see why the other is credible.
Maybe it's true that d@rkies believe and respect anything that comes from the west! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
SOLUTIONS
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
They didnt for now but on Monday morning they'll start tormenting me or they will start on Sunday afternoon.
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As long as they don't start while the soccer is on hey? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
Mogwapatholo
My problem is not with the Sangomas. My problem is with the complete lack of control over who may or may not call themselves a Sangoma. We have whole departments full of people who are supposed to oversee how the traditional healers are portrayed and none of them do a damn thing. All they do is eat tax money.
What of these people who dig up graves or take body parts off of children? How the hell do they get called a 'sangoma' when everything about being a Sangoma is completely against it? Do we now excuse that as part of the African Culture because they say so?
I'm sorry but I am just tired of this 'culture' excuse when none of it has a damn thing to do with the culture. The beautiful culture of Africa is in grave danger of being twisted into something our forefathers would not even recognise. Until such time as the traditional leaders stand up and do their job, I will continue to fight against this abomination Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
MommaC
I see those leaflets around town and I hear the stories about how 21 year old boys are running initiation schools and IT MAKES ME SICK. It is contributing absolutely nothing to the country or the respect of culture. It is simply making it into a sick parody of what it once was
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I am not making assumptions you have not confirmed by your dismissive attitude and sarcastic comments. True you have fly by nights springing up but that does not nullify her claim of an ancestral calling or does it? Let me not assume then, maybe you know this woman personally and can confirm she is a fake.
Can you confirm this MommaC or maybe it is you that is coming up with half-baked assumptions? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Decibels
well done SA Justice system for a change.....AMANDLA!! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
SOLUTIONS
I just p!ssed myself reading the above with laughter, and then after the above you put "proper context" thanks for a great laugh.
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Glad I could be of service, by the way how is your crush on Khanyi coming long? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
RobinH
Daniel. Sorry, but I really wouldn't know. It's just what I have believed throughout my "adult" life.
Jahneh. And then of course there are some who find the whole lot a mite irrational. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Mosquer
MaselaMaboea
@Mosquer
Mayb u ancestors r evil spirits chief, not mine ok...
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Ke madimone dilo tšeo wena.
@KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I am saying your ancestors are demons. red one perhaps Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Religious nuts come in all flavours dear friends. And all colours too. For example in numerous schools in the USA creationism is taught as if it were equivalent to science. In some schools ONLY creationism is taught. This is defended as being a 1st amendment right. Freedom of belief and freedom of speech. Is this sensible. Should they throw out the 1st amendment because it allows absurdities such as these? Or should creationist otherwise be prevented from infecting society with their dishonest,wrong and backward thinking. Should their backwardness be enshrined as the right to teach lies. Should our law tolerate a debasement of the employer employee contracts on grounds such as these. I think not. By all means practice your superstitions in private but do not drag it into non-personal relationships Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
SOLUTIONS
Dzel
Glad I could be of service, by the way how is your crush on Khanyi coming long?
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Sorry enlighten me, who is Khanyi Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Ancestors tormenting her. About what? "You used the wrong OMO when washing my cloths back in 1972!!!" "The pap you made in 1984 was burnt now I am here for your soul!!!" Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
WordofGod
@Mosquer
The sick note stated that she was being "badly tormented by her ancestors".
Corrections: tormented by evil spirits
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dont start with that neh! u awakening di spokepersons tsa darkness. o tla ba bona soos nou...lol Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Blackthought
Interesting....this is the kind of open mindedness that needs to be instilled to ALL in our new dispensation. Decolonisation of our minds can only go a long way in the restoration of the dignity and self confidence of Black people. Congra to CCMA bench!!! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
SOLUTIONS
Danielrjvvuren
Ancestors tormenting her. About what? "You used the wrong OMO when washing my cloths back in 1972!!!" "The pap you made in 1984 was burnt now I am here for your soul!!!"
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LOLOLOLOLOLOL, I now know where that OMO ad is coming from, it is an ancestor standing there saying, AII EHH EHHH, Just one small cap is ENOUGH. lolololololol AIIII EH EH. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Katakata
inking
Those are not ancestors mfo those are evil spirits from drinking skokiaan on saturday Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Blackthought
I agree and disagree I am happy that they allow for some reasoning within the legal system and it is not a bad idea to take such ideologies as factors to a case but to ratify such a precarious thing will open the floodgates for simple trivial issues. Now anyone can go to a traditional healer(can't spell that word) and take a month off. Rather make a new motion than just allowing for the reinstatement. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
Dzel
I don't understand your question or what it has to do with me not believing her story. You make this wild assumption that being white means that I have never spoken to, not been a part of, any culture other than the NG Kerk. You also make the assumption that I know nothing about any traditional African culture or know what goes into becoming something as important as a Sangoma. Just as you also assume that every person who is contacted by their ancestors is automatically a Sangoma or, at the least, becomes a Sangoma. They don't Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
SOLUTIONS
See the spook floating there " BOIOOO-Ehe-Ehe OOnnneee Smmaalll Caaappppp SIESIE!!! I torment your wasteful ways!!! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
amaBok
So you want to take it to the next level. Which one would that be. A debate about whether ancestors and angels speak the same language?
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Something like that, lets exermine the foundations of various beliefs and see which sounds more practical and reasonable. For us to get there perhaps we need to define what a spirit is if we can
Sorry people. I give up on the moderator today. I simply cannot post my response with my views on "soul", "ghosts" and the hereafter. Clearly there are people who find rational thinking offensive. So Dzel, it's not that I don't want to respond, but I just am tired of the lunatic censor. Explaining myself is just not worth the effort. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I pass my thank you to this article since someone resurrected because of it,who knows may be Jesus is back.
@WordofGod
Who are those spokepersons of the darkness if I may ask? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
MommaC
I don't understand your question or what it has to do with me not believing her story. You make this wild assumption that being white means that I have never spoken to, not been a part of, any culture other than the NG Kerk.
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Perhaps that is the problem; one is speaking from hearsay and the other from experience that is closed to home. My point is simple, besides this article you don't know this woman's personal experience, circumstances and what drove her to put her job on the line. It is unfair of you to dismiss her, ridicule and and start making jokes; that can only come from a position of assumed enlightenment which is highly presumptuous of you.
All I am asking is you let her be, is that too much to ask for?
Of course I can ask anyone off the street but that does not make me an expert does it? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
RobinH
Dzel: Clear liquid that comes in bottles? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
In Afghanistan some locals called Taliban believe that Mohammed forbade the teaching of girls to read and write. They believe it so much that they shot a schoolgirl just the other day. Is such a belief defensible.
In South Africa it happens that old women (usually) are burnt for being witches. Is such a belief defensible.
Also in SA strong muthi is obtained I am told from ingesting human body parts in one form or another.
Also in SA The Nationalist Church swore blind that the Bible teaches that black people should be slaves.
All christian churches say you should give ten percent of your income to them. For this they will bless you. Thats worse than e tolling because if you don't your road will end in hell.
Ag nee man we must do better than this with our brains - god given or not.
Create a new profile. Its because you are using that one they mediating your profile. Had the same problem and made a new one. Become Robin-SickofMediation-H Report Abuse
This is your misguided attempt of a retort? Everyday people comment stupidly on politics and economics but I don't see you, the Mr Robin Hood of Sowetan, reprimanding them when they comment about things they are ignorant about so please refrain from being vapid and hypocritical Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
RobinH
Midas.With great respect, NO. Ignorance of irrational things is something I aspire to. Why not. AND I am enjoying myself. Get a sense of humour.
Daniel. Thanks, Boet. I'm on form today, lol. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
Who are those spokepersons of the da.rkness if I may ask?
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I th.ink I am to.p of her li.st, I am sur.e W.oG ta.kes out a cr.oss and ho.lds it agai.nst her com.puter sc.reen and s.tarts pra.ying fr.antically ev.ery tim.e she se.es my na.me. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
RobinH
"but I don't see you, the Mr Robin Hood of Sowetan, reprimanding them when they comment about things they are ignorant " Whoever made that remark clearly doesn't read many of my comments. It's virtually all I do, ridicule stupidity and deliberate ignorance. So with respect, Here's a raspberry for you. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
amaBok
Dzel howzit
See above for my approach to "belief"
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Good thanks, my questions were specific around what is a spirit. I suggest let us start from there then we can address the question on belief.
WordofGod
@Mosquer
The sick note stated that she was being "badly tormented by her ancestors".
Corrections: tormented by evil spirits
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dont start with that neh! u awakening di spokepersons tsa darkness. o tla ba bona soos nou...lol
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The company appealed, and the Labour Appeals Court ruled in Mmelodi's favour, saying South Africa was a land of many cultures and that traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture of many of the country's inhabitants.
*********************************************************************************************************888
The Judges have said a mouthful
No Poepol... It was directed at Midas unfortunately you share the name to the legend so I thought there would be confusion. I am calling midas robin hood not u the person haha sorry Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Mosquer
Dzel
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
Who are those spokepersons of the da.rkness if I may ask?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I th.ink I am to.p of her li.st, I am sur.e W.oG ta.kes out a cr.oss and ho.lds it agai.nst her com.puter sc.reen and s.tarts pra.ying fr.antically ev.ery tim.e she se.es my na.me.
Report Abuse
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@Tlakenyobehle!
but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to do
*****************************************************************************8
I can read, write and now I am blogging :) Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MsKinkyakaKamaSutra
@iPhone4
Is there a registered body like HPCSA for Sangomas?
***************************************************************************
There is a governing bosy for traditional healers (and certificates) Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious.
why are b!ack SA dark!es so obsessed with w!tchcraft? I understand our parents but even young ones today, when things don’t go our way instead of looking within to find solutions its b0loi, short mkhulu, v00doo, z0mbie, etc. Hai man b!ack person you will forever wallow in your pit of self pity by always blaming things you cannot even prove exist. Young destiny is in your hands and not moloi or a sang0ma. Wake up b!ack people. Look at how you are being exploited by your own brothers from the rest of Africa especially Uganda who put adverts on your favourite newspapers advertising their services of bringing back lost lovers, getting a promotion (not through hard work), getting rid of your enemies etc. hai la swabisa man. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
Mosquer
So you think you are a threat to her
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I am the bogey man, the bearer of bad news and the ultimate anti-Christ. I am sure she will make a sign of the cross when she reads this. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
Sowetan are you on bathsalts again. Whats wrong with v00doo and zombie? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Dzel
Without being intentionally rude ,we won't have much to discuss because my idea of "spirit" is strictly connected to the living and not to the hereafter. Any discussion about angels, ancestors, demons and gods would purely be an abstract exercise since I emphatically reject the actuality of those notions. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
dennilton1
@Dzel
MommaC
I see those leaflets around town and I hear the stories about how 21 year old boys are running initiation schools and IT MAKES ME SICK. It is contributing absolutely nothing to the country or the respect of culture. It is simply making it into a sick parody of what it once was
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I am not making assumptions you have not confirmed by your dismissive attitude and sarcastic comments. True you have fly by nights springing up but that does not nullify her claim of an ancestral calling or does it? Let me not assume then, maybe you know this woman personally and can confirm she is a fake.
Can you confirm this MommaC or maybe it is you that is coming up with half-baked assumptions?
----------------------------------------
the real tradional Healers never advertise on billboards or pamphlets but people who got help will tell Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Sompisi
@iPhone - The organization is THO = Traditional Healers Organization. www.traditionalhealth.org.za
Or they dance and cant write, go to www.mphuthungwana.co.za and by the way "SHE" is an Accountant or Visit.
Proffesor (Doctor) Mkhize in Umsamo i.e. www.umsamo.com
So as an Inyanga (IGEDLA) myself I'm proud of the Gift that my Ancestors bestowed on me. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@Dzel
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
Who are those spokepersons of the da.rkness if I may ask?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I th.ink I am to.p of her li.st, I am sur.e W.oG ta.kes out a cr.oss and ho.lds it agai.nst her com.puter sc.reen and s.tarts pra.ying fr.antically ev.ery tim.e she se.es my na.me.
============
And just below you it's me ,number 2 on the list may be and doenst bother me since i'm the child of Jehovah who knows the truth. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Printa
Nangoku. I will never be white and I dont want to be lead by whitich rules. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
HoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious. ... etc. hai la swabisa man.
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As long as the sangoma is part of an acredited organisation, I see no reason that they cannot issue a sick note. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
Dzel
HoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious. ... etc. hai la swabisa man.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
... and do you believe in god?
=============
broer what does God have to do with my post? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
David-
HoneyB as far as I am aware there is a huge difference between witchcraft and the practices of reputable Sangomas. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
@ALL - Morning.
Talk about friday news. Classic!
@Sompisi
If you really are a sangoma i have so many things to ask. What gift have you been given? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
amaBok
Without being intentionally rude ,we won't have much to discuss because my idea of "spirit" is strictly connected to the living and not to the hereafter. Any discussion about angels, ancestors, demons and gods would purely be an abstract exercise since I emphatically reject the actuality of those notions.
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Not really, that you believe we have spirits is a good start actually.
So according to your beliefs where does this spirit come from, when and how does one acquire it and when one dies does it just vanish. Just like that, gone?
My question was specific around ghosts, what do you make of ghosts?
Have you watched Psychic Detectives for example where someone comes in, claims to be guided but the spirit of the living, makes revelations that one could not possibly make without guidance of sorts and they end up solving the case?
And if we doubt that fiddling with the unseen world can get even a beloved son of the soil into really bad trouble let us never ever ever forget Hansie "the devil made me do it" Cronje Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
HoneyB
Dzel
HoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious. ... etc. hai la swabisa man.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
... and do you believe in god?
=============
broer what does God have to do with my post?
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Everything, in your words ba swabisa so we have to use the same logic to judge those who believe in god correct or is it only ridiculous when it is African beliefs one is talking about?
LOL
Again with the assumptions.
By the way, do you know her personally?
If you are so willing to believe absolutely anything that is said, there is this bridge I have for sale that you may be interested in Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
amaBok
And if we doubt that fiddling with the unseen world can get even a beloved son of the soil into really bad trouble let us never ever ever forget Hansie "the devil made me do it" Cronje
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Let's leave Hansie out of this; please answer my questions. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
RobinH
Daniel: Sorry about that then. I must say I was rather confused. Thanks for the explanation.
@KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
There is no need to doubt if you are a child of God or what.
A child of God has a partinity test not done in human manner or authorized by way of this world Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
MommaC
LOL
Again with the assumptions.
By the way, do you know her personally?
If you are so willing to believe absolutely anything that is said, there is this bridge I have for sale that you may be interested in
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Of course I don't but I can draw from personal experience on this one as explained earlier, trust me that is way better than polling personal opinion and then thinking you know it all. Report Abuse
I do use the word spirit,,but as a description of character and not as an entity in itself such as a soul. This makes the idea of ghosts troublesome because that would mean there is some component of humans (and other animals?) that is somehow outside of the body and outlives it. In all the history of humankind the record for observation of this phenomenon is represented by dishonest accounts and none that are credible. So unless the Sowetan or Die Son comes up with genuinely testable evidence I will remain a vocal skeptic Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
Dzel
Oh sorry Dzel, I forgot that in your short little life, your personal experience trumps everyone elses' Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
@amaBok
I understand your skeptism in fact i used to be the same way until someone asked me if i could comprehend death. So i will ask you the same!
Can you imagine/comprehend or even contemplate death or non-existence? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Dzel
I recommend you to a website called s k e p t i c . c o m. it has wonderfully informative articles on all topics such as these.
As for Psychic Detectives. I dont think its wise to base your sense of reality on a tv show. Although of course very many people do. Sadly. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
RobinH
Yeah when I wrote it I thought Oh k@k hope everyone understands. hahah
I do use the word spirit,,but as a description of character and not as an entity in itself such as a soul. This makes the idea of ghosts troublesome because that would mean there is some component of humans (and other animals?) that is somehow outside of the body and outlives it
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A definition of character, but isn't that a function or derivative of the brain meaning one has to be alive then with a functional brain for them to have a spirit. Is that what a spirit is though, I would have thought it is what makes us alive or is at the core of our very being which allows us to breath and think and do the things that make us alive. Is spirit the same thing as our brain which then translate to cognitive ability, the ability to power the human body and makes us function as people and individuals?
To borrow from technology; I would have thought the spirit was more of an operating system and our brain as the processor. Using this analogy you are saying the brain is the operating system, correct? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@Mosquer
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
There is no need to doubt if you are a child of God or what.
A child of God has a partinity test not done in human manner or authorized by way of this world.
========
You're lost wena maan,when nicodemus says to Jesus"no one will perform a miracle if Jehovah is not with him Jesus didnt disagrees"so what does this mean to you since to even you can heal or perform the miracles if Jehovah is with you.
Go and read John 3:1-21.
@Tlakenyobehle!
but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to do
____
Shem, I am a Postgrad student, and practising to be a Sangoma, we also have Ministers, Doctors etc. who are Sangomas, so shut before you talk about something that you dont know Report Abuse
Ornate: With respect, the fact that you are learning the "trade" in no way makes the notions rational. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Moffdat
Not being able to comprehend death is one of the reasons I try so hard to make the best of life. Not just for me but also for those around me. If this is all I've got I'd better be paying attention. Often that doesnt work out so well but hey you gotta keep trying.
You are right of course that incomprehension fear and awe has troubled far bigger "souls" than mine and produced some of the greatest intellectual and artistic efforts of al time. But that doesn't prove there is a hereafter. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
amaBok
I recommend you to a website called s k e p t i c . c o m. it has wonderfully informative articles on all topics such as these.
As for Psychic Detectives. I dont think its wise to base your sense of reality on a tv show. Although of course very many people do. Sadly.
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I could go and search for that website or we can discuss the topic and see what makes sense, I prefer the latter. The tv programme purports to depict real cases, real events, real people solving real cases unless you can prove the content is factual or made up I have no reason to dismiss its content. Surely we should be discussing the probability of content being true or not rather than dismiss the show outright.
The reason I use the show is to get both you and me thinking rather than holding on to our beliefs, let's test the rationality thereof. Come on amaBoks, surely you can reason your way through this debate. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Guys another "Point of view" Debate no one is wrong no one is right. The idea that something like this is allowed without actual physical proof is what is getting me. Yes it is hard to quantify such things but to force an employer to re-employ and obviously lacks worker is whats puzzling me, but the court has ruled so its out of our hands just watch as this blows out of proportion Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Galfrend
Ornate - Can I ask you some questions if you dont mind? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
Ornate
I've got one particular question to ask about gotwasa Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
I would have imagined that if one does not want to accept the Western rules, then don't work for a Western company. I mean, if I am told to bring a letter from a Sangoma when I am sick, then I simply won't accept a job at that company. This is exactly the kind of ruling that makes companies careful of employing certain groups of people, and one of the reasons I am glad I took JJQ's advice, paid off all my workers and closed my company. Report Abuse
Robin not pulling the race card i gues somethings will never change, i personaly dont think you are actualy in a position to say some practices dont have a place........................, to you some practices might be meaningless since but to the next person its another story. Its high time people from different designations are treated with the same repsect in this country, no believe noh tradition should be exhauled above the other after all we are living in a democratic country. P.S. i do not believe in these practices but i believe in showing respect to my fellow human being in every sense of the word Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
amaBok
but it does indicate an intrinsic human conception which we all feel. Atheist or religious bigot. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
oldlady12
I would have imagined that if one does not want to accept the Western rules, then don't work for a Western company.... IN AN AFRICAN COUNTRY
We are all entitled to leave oldlady, is taking leave - unpaid nogal - a foreign concept in "a Western company". You do know leave is enshrined in our Constitution right? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
Danielrjvvuren
That is exactly what my problem with this is. Modern medical doctors don't know it all BUT they have a certificate to say that they passed an exam and did their 'apprenticeship' and are held liable for any cockups they make. With this lot, it is just a decision to wake up in the morning and put 'Sangoma' in front of your name. Just look at how many hongfong sangomas are on this string. You'd swear it was one in two who is suddenly qualified. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Dzel
I'm not sure that using an electro mechanical analogy (OS) is the best way to to look at human beings . My sense is that we have potential to be far more than that. But I do start from the supposition that this life is all we have. That said its an elegant mystery how all of these truly amazing functions are linked and coordinated to produce the stuff we do. One day though that mystery should be understood. The fact that neural pathways keep developing throughout our lives gives me great hope that what we have achieved even as youngsters can be exceeded as old timers.
But even such excitement at what we have done and could still do does not make me believe that there are supernatural hands guiding it all. Quite the contrary. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
sabza007
Good judgement, I like it. Although this kind of sick notes is open to abuse, but I like the reason that Western way of Consulting a doctor must not over rule the African way. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
dennilton1
@Ornate
@Tlakenyobehle!
but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to do
____
Shem, I am a Postgrad student, and practising to be a Sangoma, we also have Ministers, Doctors etc. who are Sangomas, so shut before you talk about something that you dont know
--------------------------
you go gal.
I am Accountant (CA) with practitioner and sooner will be training as traditional healer as i do have a calling. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
RobinH
Boogie. Well good for you, Sir. Incidentally I do NOT "exhaul" (?) any tradition above any other. Tradition serves little useful purpose in this global era. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Galfrend
Boogie1985
GF likes this!!------------------------------------> but i believe in showing respect to my fellow human being in every sense of the word
Its all about respect. I dont believe in witchcraft and sangomas but I respect other people's choices.No need to ridicule or undermine other people's beliefs and think yours is superiour! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
Dzel, if African countries have problems with a Western company having Western rules, then they should not allow such companies to do business in their country. This woman first applied for "study" leave, and then produced a sick letter. A month long illness is a very serious illness, and even if she produced a doctor's note, I would have questioned that note. Obviously no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her, so she made another plan. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
MommaC
And the employer is powerless he must now just accept it. What is stopping her from doing it again? How can the court allow it. I am happy that they took a step into the right direction yes include such factors but now the precedents is set for more and more people to just claim they are tormented by spirits.
Moffdat
You better at the law than I am what is your spin on the legal implications of allowing such a thing Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
Boogie1985
'Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior, Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned - WAR' - Halie Salasie I
Everytime i hear someone express truly objective reasoning i smile a Jesus smile! I give thanks... Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
Dzel, BTW, unpaid leave, according to The Department of Labour, is AT THE DISCRETION of the employer. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
What I find most amusing is those who are on here saying that a year off is a damn good idea are the same lot who are vehemently against labour brokers. Now who the hell was supposed to do her work for a year and what was the company supposed to do with the temp employee once she came back? You are a business owner who now has to suddenly train someone to do a job and you don't know how long they will have to do it or even if the new sangoma is coming back. You are simply left hanging Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
Dzel
HoneyB
Dzel
HoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious. ... etc. hai la swabisa man.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
... and do you believe in god?
=============
broer what does God have to do with my post?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Everything, in your words ba swabisa so we have to use the same logic to judge those who believe in god correct or is it only ridiculous when it is African beliefs one is talking about?
==================
Any belief which defies logic and is not tangible should fall into the 'swabisa' catagory. however when people start believing that a person can turn into a dokey at night so it can cause an accident then its a sign of a troubled society.
I didn't even read the article... lol Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
amaBok
But even such excitement at what we have done and could still do does not make me believe that there are supernatural hands guiding it all. Quite the contrary.
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Supernatural, probably not. What is relevant though is I think there is general census on the concept of a spirit and that we each have one that is why we function the way we can. So no the question is if the spirit can exist in one's body why then is it so difficult to accept that it can also existing independently of a physical body. Why do we think one is dependent on the other?
Why is the idea that our spirits linger on long after we are gone so repulsive to western culture or is it when we call these spirits ancestors that we start being dismissive? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Moffdat
The court held that(God how many times have you over your studies had to write that blady sentence) it was a valid excuse for missing work and that the employer had no right of dismissing her. I'm no labour lawyer but a month not at work and then you bring a Sangoma letter I will laugh in your face. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
HoneyB
Any belief which defies logic and is not tangible should fall into the 'swabisa' catagory. however when people start believing that a person can turn into a dokey at night so it can cause an accident then its a sign of a troubled society.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Key terms: belief, defies logic, not tangible.
I'll ask again, does believing in god pass or fail the "swabisa" test? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Dzel
Having such discussions is great up to a point. And that point comes when the mood changes from friendly dialogue to a contest. I don't have any desire to prove anything here. You are welcome to believe what you will. Its only my intention to share with you, at your request, my views on the topic. If you find that unsatisfactory you might try chatting with someone else.
As for what tv shows purport to be perhaps the number of past debates around how Idols is run should have persuaded you to be cautious in what you take to be fact. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KeRataBasadi
I'm not shocked crackers would dismiss african culture as anything less that sh1t, then turn around and bottle their traditional medicine, steal their techniques not even crediting them and sell them back their sh1t exorbitantly. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
HoneyB
Just dont start talking about THAT RABBIT!!!!! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
200803664
@Iphone 4
Is there a registered body like HPCSA for Sangomas?
_______________________________________________
yes, it is called South African Dingaka Association... SADA Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
Danielrjvvuren
I would love to see how this plays out though but knowing sowetan the whole article was taken out of context! The lawyer probably found a loop hole in the LRA or company's by-laws and they're trying to spin it off like the letter was valid! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
Danielrjvvuren
I come from a time period where, if you got pregnant, you left the company and re-applied for your job when you wanted to go back to work. To be honest, it was my decision to have a baby and it wasn't up to the boss to pay for my decision. Changing the labour laws actually made it much more difficult for women between the ages of 20 and 35 to be employed. How much more will this impact on women?
I was very facetious about it in my earlier comments but it is a viable reality for someone to suddenly claim that doing the filing is against their 'religion'. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Do sangoma's get to go to sem1nars and get CPD po1nts? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Mosquer
A re fodiša
A re phediša
nakong tše boima
maphelong a rona....
Any belief which defies logic and is not tangible should fall into the 'swabisa' catagory. however when people start believing that a person can turn into a dokey at night so it can cause an accident then its a sign of a troubled society.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Key terms: belief, defies logic, not tangible.
I'll ask again, does believing in god pass or fail the "swabisa" test?
===============
Right question; wrong person. Ask them believers. You know what i am trying to say. I am in no mood for mind tango with you. Find a willing participant please Sir. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
Danielrjvvuren
Do sangoma's get to go to sem1nars and get CPD po1nts?
===============
yes they do...you will stop teasing them once you need their assistance and they provide it. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
CYBORICO
@robinh
commenting on an issue that u have no knowledge will make u sound very stupid Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
MommaC, the same rules applied during my era. No such thing as maternity leave. All the rights of employees nowadays, whether it be western rights or african rights, is a major contributing factor to companies keeping their staff numbers as low as possible, which in turn, is a major contributing factor to unemployment. Sometimes the win of a battle is so sweet that one forgets the greater war. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
Danielrjvvuren
There's an annual shaman converence held in west Africa every year. Shaman/Sangomas/Inyanga's from all over the world gather and share knowledge. From America, Bolivia, Brazil etc. They always choose western or subsaharan africa for some weird reason. lol Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
dennilton1
Danielrjvvuren
Do sangoma's get to go to sem1nars and get CPD po1nts?
------------------------------------------
Traditional Healer do go to seminars. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
Moffdat
Could just be the case. I am not against setting such cases and using it but this is going to make any and all sangoma letters valid. I'm going to a Rabbi and I'm going to tell him I need a note because of mazel tov. It leads down to the same principles
MommaC
We had a lady come for legal advice when we had it open at VC and she was not promoted after years of service to the company and she worked years for the company but as soon as she got married she got promoted because they, the company, said that single women tend to not settle so she wanted to know if she could be compensated for the discrimination. Thats just not needed everything is just complicated. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
oldlady12
Dzel, if African countries have problems with a Western company having Western rules, then they should not allow such companies to do business in their country. This woman first applied for "study" leave, and then produced a sick letter. A month long illness is a very serious illness, and even if she produced a doctor's note, I would have questioned that note. Obviously no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her, so she made another plan.
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You know the mistake people make, employers in particular make is to think by paying one's salary we own the individual and they should bow to this monetary power we have over them. Your problem is you don't even understand what this is really about, you are only only at this from a power perspective. When one goes through ukuthwasa you just don't run around willingly, you go to a school or home where you are taken through your training so to validate her story one only has to look at where she was and what she was doing.
To argue "no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her" is to miss the point incompletely. I have explained that the illness is not the kind you think of and why, please feel free to re-read my comments.
The point though is we need to look at people as more than a commodity, an input cost under our financial spell and she / he say to jump when I say and how I say (s)he must jump. There is a human element to this story, one that you don't seem concerned about understanding. That she was willing to take unpaid leave to go an perform rituals she needed to perform should tell you this was not someone who sis this out of laziness or because she is unreasonable; there was a pressing need for her to o this and that could not have been post-postened.
People are not commodities oldlady or machines we would go far if we treated each other with mutual respect, not based on how much money we have and what power we think we have over the next person. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
oldlady12
MommaC, the same rules applied during my era. No such thing as maternity leave. All the rights of employees nowadays, whether it be western rights or african rights, is a major contributing factor to companies keeping their staff numbers as low as possible, which in turn, is a major contributing factor to unemployment. Sometimes the win of a battle is so sweet that one forgets the greater war.
===========================================================
You disturbed child. lol. I'm sorry you gave birth @ work. lol ha ha... Thank God for rights Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
HoneyB
If I had the choice of having my legs amputated or be looked over by a traditional healer I would jump off a cliff. In no circumstance will I ever need the help. I do not discredit their role in society I really just did not know if they do keep up with the times. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
Moffdat, READ boet. As MommaC said, we had to resign when we were pregnant, and then re-applied later when we were ready to join the workforce. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
amaBok
Having such discussions is great up to a point. And that point comes when the mood changes from friendly dialogue to a contest.
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It doesn't have to be but I am glad you are honest enough to stop this before it degenerates, I respect that. Leave Idols out of this though, not even on the same galaxy so to speak. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
oldlady12
Moffdat, READ boet. As MommaC said, we had to resign when we were pregnant, and then re-applied later when we were ready to join the workforce.
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so we are now using past human right violations to perpetuation modern day slavery where one does not have rights in the workplace? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
RobinH
Cyborico: With respect, being called stupid by you is a recommendation. Please have a wonderful day. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Mgaraji
Dzel
oldlady12
Dzel, if African countries have problems with a Western company having Western rules, then they should not allow such companies to do business in their country. This woman first applied for "study" leave, and then produced a sick letter. A month long illness is a very serious illness, and even if she produced a doctor's note, I would have questioned that note. Obviously no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her, so she made another plan.
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You know the mistake people make, employers in particular make is to think by paying one's salary we own the individual and they should bow to this monetary power we have over them. Your problem is you don't even understand what this is really about, you are only only at this from a power perspective. When one goes through ukuthwasa you just don't run around willingly, you go to a school or home where you are taken through your training so to validate her story one only has to look at where she was and what she was doing.
To argue "no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her" is to miss the point incompletely. I have explained that the illness is not the kind you think of and why, please feel free to re-read my comments.
The point though is we need to look at people as more than a commodity, an input cost under our financial spell and she / he say to jump when I say and how I say (s)he must jump. There is a human element to this story, one that you don't seem concerned about understanding. That she was willing to take unpaid leave to go an perform rituals she needed to perform should tell you this was not someone who sis this out of laziness or because she is unreasonable; there was a pressing need for her to o this and that could not have been post-postened.
People are not commodities oldlady or machines we would go far if we treated each other with mutual respect, not based on how much money we have and what power we think we have over the next person.
__________________________
@Dzel
Well articulated Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
oldlady12
Moffdat, READ boet. As MommaC said, we had to resign when we were pregnant, and then re-applied later when we were ready to join the workforce.
====================================================
Ahhhhh. really? I'm sorry... i know i know don't cry. Medi-evil times were hard on everyone. But just try to forget la la. Okay? Forgive and forget la la. The only person who gets hurt by the hate is the hater. lol for some or other reason i can't stop laughing at how cruel the system used to be. lol ha ha Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
Danielrjvvuren
HoneyB
If I had the choice of having my legs amputated or be looked over by a traditional healer I would jump off a cliff. In no circumstance will I ever need the help. I do not discredit their role in society I really just did not know if they do keep up with the times.
=================
Daniel let me just say you never know until you know. There are amazing stories of sangomas working wonders you would not believe. These stories would change not only how you look at sangomas but also how you look at life in general. Report Abuse
Again I do think they do a good job for OTHER people but I personally do not want to be close to someone who is termed "Traditional Healer". Never have you heard a sangoma cure cancer but MEDICAL SCIENCE has rid me of my cancer thats what I am saying and to be frank they scare me.... Dam I'm so white sometimes haha Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
Dzel, I think you are the one not understanding. Maybe you too, should learn to read. My problem here is not with the sangoma letter at all. My problem is with her applying for unpaid leave, and then that being denied, comes up with a sangomas letter for exactly the same period of time she wanted unpaid leave for in the first instance. And remember, just because you work for a company, doesn't mean you own them either. Somewhere there must be a set of rules that satisfies both parties, and i believe that is where The Labour Law comes in. The same labour law that does not make unpaid leave a right. She couldn't get what she wanted, so she used cheap tactics. She is actually the one making a mockery of African tradition, not me. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
CYBORICO
RobinH
Cyborico: With respect, being called stupid by you is a recommendation. Please have a wonderful day.
i said u sound stupid, but ya whatever u deducted from it i dont care, i'll still have a good day whether u wish for it or not Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
Sorry, above comment to Mgaraji, not Dzel. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
T.C.T
perfect perfect ruling coming from CCMA atleast they are not ignorant to CULTURAL/TRADISION issues like some useless christians in this blog who turned there back from there own forefathers..eish wat a big shame... Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
oldlady12
Can't blame them though. With labour laws the way they are now, the less staff you have, the less headaches.
Maybe we should go back to those days. At least back then, if you wanted to have a baby, you REALLY wanted a baby so you didn't leave it locked up alone whilst going kroeg toe or locked in the car outside the casino. Report Abuse
RSA laws are not back to back. It depends who you are Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
oldlady12
Clap clap clap Please take a bow. That was amazing! Always loved your retorts. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
T.C.T, so what do you want from us? If we support our forefathers, (Verwoerd, Botha) we're wrong. If we turn our back on them, we're wrong, or did you perhaps mean to say black Christians. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
Moffdat
I damn near did have my son at work. They were having a lot of trouble finding a replacement for me and I worked until the day before he was born :)
In some ways it was unfair but everything about being a woman was unfair. You got half the salary, double the workload and your boss got all the credit. In other ways it was fine as we didn't HAVE to go back to work when the baby was 3 months old. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Its very interesting to see that a "belief", which is something we choose as an individual can produce a "right" which is binding on everyone else in society whether they chose it or not.
Perhaps we need to look more closely at this issue of binding others to our choices without them having any part of the decision.
Along these lines why would it be legitimate for an employee to impose their beliefs on the employer with the employer having no right to redress.
Such a decision makes no sense. Could these judges have been bewitched????????? :O
Dubul'Amanzi
@Ornate Thokoza gogo...
Thokoza..........@Galfrend and Moffat, u are free to ask any question my email gtsmdm@yahoo.com. Sure Dennilton1, double gifted, thats who we are, in books and in reading other peoples minds....ayoba, Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
CYBORICO
@oldlady12
Can't blame them though. With labour laws the way they are now, the less staff you have, the less headaches.
and thanks to those labour laws the black employees have some protection, gone r the days when the employer will abuse u to death then fire u for being sick, then replace u with someone who will start with a salary to afford only transport to get to work. Halleluja the tables r turning, next it will be the labour brokers(fraud)
pity you are mixed up your forefathers dont belong in this land,it is you who are busy irritating owners of this land....some black christians wer taught to blv in that crap story via educational system that wer created to make blacks turn away from their original blvs. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
oldlady12
Dzel, I think you are the one not understanding... My problem is with her applying for unpaid leave, and then that being denied, comes up with a sangomas letter for exactly the same period of time she wanted unpaid leave for in the first instance...Somewhere there must be a set of rules that satisfies both parties, and i believe that is where The Labour Law comes in. ...She couldn't get what she wanted, so she used cheap tactics. She is actually the one making a mockery of African tradition, not me.
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OK, let’s go back a few steps maybe it will sink in this time.
1. When she applied for medical leave it was because she needed to answer a calling, a calling which if not answered could have been a treat to her life, whether you believe this or not is irrelevant.
2. She applied for leave which was denied but because of the point above she decided to go anyway, why is it surprising the note is for the exact same period given she applied for leave to get this training? What is confusing you here oldlady?
3. She went to the Labour Court and her actions adjudged reasonable under the circumstances, again what should I clarify for you so we are on the same page.
Your problem is you think she is being deceitful in her actions; I have been trying to explain to people like you who don’t understand the concept why her story has merit. She genuinely thought she needed to go through ukuthwasa, she went through the training and afterwards went to work with proof of this training. Which part do you think is a lie or made up oldlady and why?
Moffdat, whatever. We PLANNED boet. Something which is indead a foreign concept to today's society. We didn't have babies if we could not afford time off work, and we certainly did not have babies without interested, present, supportive loving and paying husbands. See, not all things western are bad. Report Abuse
amaBok
lol ha ha
Do you remember the story about the people in KZN who got struck by a lightning bolt at the funeral of someone who got struck by a lightning bolt? I remember the premier or the mayor saying they would investigate where the lightning bolt came from... lol. There's no place like home..... Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
Danielrjvvuren
HoneyB
Again I do think they do a good job for OTHER people but I personally do not want to be close to someone who is termed "Traditional Healer". Never have you heard a sangoma cure cancer but MEDICAL SCIENCE has rid me of my cancer thats what I am saying and to be frank they scare me.... Dam I'm so white sometimes haha
=================
Well i think you are letting your paleness cloud the thinking part of your brain. Look do you expect sangomas to announce to the whole world what they can and cannot cure. Let me let you in on something you will not know because of your whiteness. Most genuine sangomas are not lapha zonkes, they specialise in one or two conditions and they do not accept your money until you are healed and even then they do not charge a standard price. they let you choose what the amount you wish to pay. I know a number of whites like you who have consulted sangomas so its not about being white or not. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
CYBORICO
@amaBok
Its very interesting to see that a "belief", which is something we choose as an individual can produce a "right" which is binding on everyone else in society whether they chose it or not.
this has nothing to do with belief, the doctors recomended that she does this training, and she found out about it after seeking help for troubles/sickness she was having, lack of knowledge on the issue will make u say stupid things like that other self righteuse guy from CT Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
T.C.T
===============
you're still alive? anyhow who are you to say who does and doesnt belong in this land? SA is for all who live in it baba. take that to tebabank! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
HoneyB
Well maybe I must just go see hey? Know any good sangomas in Durban? Maybe they can cure me of my bias? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Old- Lady it seems that the gap between those insisting on their right to believe self serving twaddle and those who can tell a bald faced charade when it smacks them between the eyes is about as great as the wage differential.
Dzel, if she applied for medical leave first and formost, with her sangoma letter, no problem to me. She applied for unpaid leave first, , which to me indicates no medical condition at all. Then, when that unpaid leave was denied, she decided to still do her course, and produced a sangoma certificate. What is confusing to you here, Dzel? Think doctor's letter. You want to go to ...... for a 1 month holiday. You apply for unpaid leave. Your boss denies it. You go anyway, and upon returning you produce a medical doctor's note. if you cannot understand the deceitfulness of that, then nothing i can say or do will get you to understand. Anyways, if she wants to be a sangoma, why does she still want to work for someone? She should go practice her profession like any medical practitioner, seperate from places that is not part of her profession. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Sfefenyana
Big up to CCMA,where ws her Union?I hope she ws represented by employer seccumbed union NUM Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
HoneyB
Danielrjvvuren
HoneyB
Well maybe I must just go see hey? Know any good sangomas in Durban? Maybe they can cure me of my bias?
============
you need one who can cure balanitis too. it does come to the brain eventually you know. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Boogie1985
Daneile and Oldlady, the fact that she won the case simply shows that she was well within her rights.
Moffdat, you said nothing about the west, east of south, but I did....or are only you allowed to say something about anything now? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
spencerc777
'IF YOU GET CAUGHT STEALING, THAT MEANS THE ANCESTORS ARE UNHAPPY WITH YOU.
Who of you westerners and white skinned SA's know that?
In the light of, now do you understand rampant fraud, theft, theft of company time and tendterpreneuring? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Cyborico
Sorry mac just read the story again. It wasn't doctor(s) who told her to get the training. It was a sangoma. Now help me if I am wrong but there is a pretty big difference between the two types of healing. There is a difference in the way they diagnose in the way they prescribe, in the ethical environment damn boy they don't even use the same clinical definitions for disease. I mean do "germs" even exist in sangoma science?
So when you say doctor(s) aren't you putting sangomas in a bad light. I mean if you wanna use the trad approach at least be consistent.
oldlady12
Moffdat, whatever. We PLANNED boet.
==================================
oldlady please stop calling me boet. The thought of an old lady who smokes 20 cigarettes a day, with twelve cats and proud of her enslaved past calling me boet/bra/mfwethu/boss/auti is unnerving. lol Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
T.C.T, so you did mean black Christians?
Boogie1985, I believe an appeal will overturn it. I think the employers concentrated too much on the sangoma letter (whether it is permissable or not), while they should have concentrated on her deceit. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
HoneyB
No I am actually being sincere there I am willing to try it but what ever really...
Boogie1985
God my name is so mangled anyways, well within her rights doesn't make it right to do it. We are not complaining about her legal rights we are complaining that any decent person can see the big holes in the story's plot. Many people get off from murder was it their right to murder then? That is what you are implying then isn't it? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Cl!ck-
I blame the arrival of Jan Van Riebeeck in 1652.. *Poor ancestors*
your d.octor tells u the pain u been having is due to your f.oreskin and recommends that u go get it cut, what do u do?
the problem here is not the women and her employer, its u guys thinking a sangoma is not d.octor enough, well if he wasnot, the b.lack population will be dwingling towards e.xtinction, but look at our numbers, same sangoma saved many a life and delivered many a healthy baby and saved many a di.ck from falling off from a "wh.iteman created" s.exual in.fections Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Just please dont anybody mention that dam RABBIT!! Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
Moffdat, boet, 40 cigarettes a day, with the odd joint (prescribed by my sangoma) inbetween, and 3 dogs. No cats....the sangoma is afraid of cats. My past, can't change that, but yes, very proud of the fact that my generation planned and provided for our children. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
oldlady12
Moffdat, you said nothing about the west, east of south, but I did....or are only you allowed to say something about anything now?
==========================================
I'm saying that because you were trying to make this a continental/racial/cultural issue. Read my comment again... sybiminal text everywhere. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
CYBORICO
amaBok
Cyborico
Sorry mac just read the story again. It wasn't doctor(s) who told her to get the training. It was a sangoma. Now help me if I am wrong but there is a pretty big difference between the two types of healing. There is a difference in the way they diagnose in the way they prescribe, in the ethical environment damn boy they don't even use the same clinical definitions for disease. I mean do "germs" even exist in sangoma science?
So when you say doctor(s) aren't you putting sangomas in a bad light. I mean if you wanna use the trad approach at least be consistent.
nc nc nc. look at what i am dealing with, sangoma is a doctor my friend, he just aint a western doctor, sorry i cant screem or write this with a bigger font coz i know it will take u years to understand it. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
oldlady12
Dzel, if she applied for medical leave first and formost, with her sangoma letter, no problem to me. She applied for unpaid leave first, , which to me indicates no medical condition at all. Then, when that unpaid leave was denied, she decided to still do her course, and produced a sangoma certificate. What is confusing to you here, Dzel?
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I fully understand the chronology of events oldlady but what I am saying is you miss what this whole situation is about hence you keep on going on about the sick note being convenient but it has to be since the leave was to attend the training. How many times do I have to explain to you her "sickness" cannot be understood in the context of one catching a virus and then falling sick as a consequence. You are struggling with the context, a context I have tried over and over to explain but I suppose I can't take the whiteness out of you so this is becoming a pointless exchange as you refuse to listen and understand what this story is about. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
Moffdat, go further up. Much further, and see that the pro sangomas after your application for leave failed people started turning it into a Western vs African thing. I followed suit, but yes, maybe you didn't use the Western vs African thing, and if so ( I'm not going to scroll up), then i do apologise to you. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
amaBok
You mean the anti-bullet proofing bunny :) Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
amaBok
Cyborico
A sangoma is not doctor enough. etc etc etc.
I dunno hey sangomas didnt do that much to stop the hiv massacre that your politcians refused to acknowledge.
Although there was some talk about raping 3 year olds having a marvelous curative effect . I dont know if that came from a sangoma though.
spencerc777: 'IF YOU GET CAUGHT STEALING, THAT MEANS THE ANCESTORS ARE UNHAPPY WITH YOU. - Who of you westerners and white skinned SA's know that?.......
With respect, WTF has that got to with being rational? Oh my, and this is supposed to make the corruption etc okay, because as long as no-one gets caught the ancestors are happy? How rational is that? Give me a break. Report Abuse
LOL
so your ancestors don't mind you stealing and they will even help you (if not encourage you) but if you pizz them off you get caught? Hells bell boet, what kind of family tree do you come from? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
oldlady12
Moffdat, go further up. Much further, and see that the pro sangomas after your application for leave failed people started turning it into a Western vs African thing. I followed suit, but yes, maybe you didn't use the Western vs African thing, and if so ( I'm not going to scroll up), then i do apologise to you.
=======================================================
That's okay racism is part of our culture! Please feel free to take pride in the evils of apartheid Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
amaBok
so much for the old lucky rabbit foot charm Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Danielrjvvuren
CYBORICO
Oh God that first paragraph is idiotic at best... Anyways the problem is as Oldlady and MommaC has so many time tried to explain to you that the version of events prior to the month off is in question. Let me simplify in bullets.
The lady wanted
-Unpaid level
- was not granted
-Took time anyways
- Gave employer note from sangoma
- Demanded to be reinstated.
Now my contract states that if I need to take sick leave I need a Doctors note from a registered doctor of medicinal sciences. That is the nature of the contract. Why am I trying to talk to you? yes you are right be gone now.
Dzel, maybe you're right. Maybe I do not understand. I thought sangomas rank up there with doctors curing sickness. I didn't know sangomas can override an employer in giving permission for training and study leave. So, in essence, if I get a calling to become a priest, my employer must allow me whatever time I need of to go do my studies, which are not related to his business at all, and my chief priest can give me a letter which overrides my employers powers? Thank the good Lord, the forefathers, the ancestors and any other god or devine power out there that I am not an employer anymore. Thank you JJQ too. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
oldlady12
Moffdat, go further up. Much further, and see that the pro sangomas after your application for leave failed people started turning it into a Western vs African thing.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You know sometimes when I read comments like these I truly believe blacks were too forgiving to allow for a transition as smooth as ours, sometimes it feels we are the only ones who compromised and some people never changed. One would have hoped we'd try to understand each other better, learn from each other so that when things like these happen we can judge from an informed perspective.
Sometimes I wonder if we ever reconciled or if we celebrated sporting victories together and thought we were now one nation. Attitudes and beliefs remain largely unchanged except a few exceptional cases, I find your dismissive attitude a bit disturbing oldlady. Here we are taking the time to contextualise the story and all you give back is ill-informed indignation. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
oldlady12
Anyways, my sangoma just booked me off. My doctor too, so TGIF. Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Moffdat
oldlady12
You want to make fun of me oldlady? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
Dzel
oldlady12
Dzel, maybe you're right. Maybe I do not understand. I thought sangomas rank up there with doctors curing sickness. I didn't know sangomas can override an employer in giving permission for training and study leave. So, in essence, if I get a calling to become a priest, my employer must allow me whatever time I need of to go do my studies, which are not related to his business at all, and my chief priest can give me a letter which overrides my employers powers? Thank the good Lord, the forefathers, the ancestors and any other god or devine power out there that I am not an employer anymore. Thank you JJQ too.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Employer's power ... to you this is about financial power isn't it? The employer pays your salary so he can kick you a thousand different ways and you should take it without complaining. The more I read your replies the more I think perhaps JJQ did your employees a favour by setting them free to look for an employer that understands each and everyone of us deserves to be treated with respect and to be looked at not only as the guy to dig trenches but as an individual who has needs and beliefs.
Your example is not a good one oldlady, let's try one of a Muslim who believes they have to take on a spiritual journey called the hajj. You know what that is right, the holiest of all pilgrimages in the Islam faith that every Muslim man has to take atleast once in their lifetime.
Do you think it would be fair and / or reasonable of an employer to refuse one permission to undertake this holy pilgrimage? Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
MommaC
amaBok
Its a bugger when a bunny has more powerful ancestors than a sangoma. Although, you wanna chop off my feet, I'd probably be able to come up with some powerful juju to get back at you too Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
T.C.T
HoneyB
T.C.T
===============
you're still alive? anyhow who are you to say who does and doesnt belong in this land? SA is for all who live in it baba. take that to tebabank
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes im alive and kicking!!!mmmhh i see you too you are alive shame atleast GOD is great!!! yes unders new laws and constitution SA is for all of us BUT historically its for blacks and belong to blacks Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
CYBORICO
amaBok
Cyborico
A sangoma is not doctor enough. etc etc etc.
I dunno hey sangomas didnt do that much to stop the hiv massacre that your politcians refused to acknowledge.
Although there was some talk about raping 3 year olds having a marvelous curative effect . I dont know if that came from a sangoma though.
so did your western ARV work? what about the endless list of deadly side effect
didnt your elder people fall for the brainwash by NP that blacks are not human but animals?
bro there will always be people misleading other people but that dont mean the rest are fake and fraud aswell, a sangoma is indeed a doctor, but the belief in super naturals powers makes the sangoma not to progress in his healing profession, but that dont make him no doctor. as fo blaming the masses for being taken for a ride, i just made u a good example of your own president(botha) taking u for a ride so he could fullfill his evil plans Report Abuse
Oct 19, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@oldlady12
Moffdat...that's okay, racism is part of our culture... which culture do you belong to, if I may ask?
======
Oldie i didnt think that today you'll publicly come out that ofcourse it's in your bloed racism but did. Report Abuse
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Comments
Nokozile
yaa neh!!!!!!Report Abuse
RobinH
"badly tormented by her ancestors". Accepted as valid in a rational society!!??? Pardon while I pick my jaw up off the floor.Report Abuse
Tlakenyobehle!
but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to doReport Abuse
iPhone4
Is there a registered body like HPCSA for Sangomas?Report Abuse
Missjoy
Big up to CCMA and Labour courtReport Abuse
RobinH
lol @ iPhone>>>> Very amusing!Report Abuse
MophemeKoPitori
LKK "badly tormented by her ancestors" it's indeed an ancestor terminology.She should have gone to Venda for a powerful sangoma for muthi so that no-one messes with her....EVER
Report Abuse
MommaC
Why are her tormented ancestors making their problems her employer's problems?Report Abuse
Blackstone.lebs
That's a step in the right direction. Well done CCMA and Labour Appeals Court.Report Abuse
Mosquer
The sick note stated that she was being "badly tormented by her ancestors".Corrections: tormented by evil spirits
Report Abuse
2shy2call
Ya my mom is a Sangoma I am telling you i am bringing a sick note from her for a year.Ya Madlozi are ke dula ganyane
Report Abuse
Dubul'Amanzi
As a prophet myself I said Amen to CCMA and the court @Nokozile Uzothola ingane yentombazane iskhathi esizayo...Report Abuse
mphephethwane
now, sit back & watch how this ruling will be abused by others in their respective cases.Report Abuse
iPhone4
@DubulAmanzi already at work I see. When am I winning the powerball?Report Abuse
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
The company appealed, and the Labour Appeals Court ruled in Mmelodi's favour, saying South Africa was a land of many cultures and that traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture of many of the country's inhabitants.====================
Hallelujah to this Amen.
@Tlakenyobehle!
If your uncle cannt read and write dont think all cannt things have changed sangomas can read and writes,most of today sangomas some are from universities,colleges and so forth have some life please nana wa utlwa?
Report Abuse
SetlaboswanaBoy07
I receive sick notes stating..." Medical Condition" from Qualified Medical Doctors, they are never challenged....I dont see a problem with that sick note. South Africa is a land of many cultures and that traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture of many of the country's inhabitants. Amen to thatReport Abuse
ThirdEye
"traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture "It about time.
Report Abuse
amaBok
As its described this is a horrendous decision. It will open the door to every kind of dishonest and fraudulent claim by the unscrupulous.This precedent will definitely have to be reviewed. Unfortunately it is also obvious that those sitting on the LCA have about as much jurisprudence as your average class bully who failed grade 3.Report Abuse
Seja-Bana
YAH NE, MEHLOLOReport Abuse
Pointman
These kids of rulings are screwing up our economy and our country. The employer should appeal this nonsensical ruling.Report Abuse
Dubul'Amanzi
@iPhone4 lets leave the money for now, lets talk about life, U Nkulunkulu uthi ungasadli kakhulu amagwinya, and uyeke i danone/ yoghurt etc, izokunikeza inkinga.Report Abuse
Dubul'Amanzi
@ Robin lolReport Abuse
RobinH
Dubul: Thanks. A very good morning to you.Report Abuse
mjimara
This "precedent" is long overdue. It is good for the development and recognition of customary practices and common law.Report Abuse
Orekile
I totally agree with the Labour Appeals court, indeed no western culture should be allowed to dominate our south african cultures. Thumbs up labour court!!!!Report Abuse
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.Report Abuse
golezwa
@iPhone4Is there a registered body like HPCSA for Sangomas?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there's is, i've heard of South African Counsil for Traditional Healers, am not sure though
Report Abuse
Mosquer
Dubul'AmanziAs a prophet myself
*************************
Prophet of Baal or prophet of God? just asking...
Report Abuse
amaBok
Obviously those of you celebrating this "win" have no idea of what has just occurred here. All you see is the "triumph" of one side over another. As if it were soccer. My friends you have just opened the door for every demon peddling liar and cheat to steal from his/her employer. When it comes to government that would be us, the taxpayer footing the bill for this madness.Whats the bet Zuma will be using this defence when he eventually ends up in court on his fraud charges.
Report Abuse
Dubul'Amanzi
Hi Mosquer, of God..Report Abuse
amaBok
KatakataEmaotoAditshepeI'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.
Dont forget to report back on your successful fraud.
Report Abuse
jerico
that is a victory to each and every breadwinner.i will be a sangoma year from now.
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MommaC
So if any old poep can claim to be a sangoma, could I now write a prescription for a salary raise as is determined by some obscure ancestor and will the company have to fulfill that prescription?(mouse running frantically on treadmill)
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Tsek
Do we still have mamparas who believes in ancestors/ witchdoctors???Report Abuse
Dubul'Amanzi
@Jerico lol, I can give you a skillReport Abuse
iPhone4
@Dubul'Amanzi I don't eat any of those nje lol! Oh Robin gonna be a brilliant one for sureReport Abuse
Boogie1985
@Mr RobinH are you amused simply because you are part of the minority which believes some ethic traditions and believes are not as important as those of the western society????Report Abuse
Flemza
Good judgement as an African who did not migrate to this continent I fully support the labor court ruling, our culture with this constitution is being undermined , for the first time I`m glad Zuma is in power and thanks for appointing the new constitutional court judge president, the results are there for everyone to see , this is bringing back ubuthu.Report Abuse
THUTLWANE
Big up to CCMA and Labour Court indeed. Africans are becoming a part of the world.Report Abuse
NeoBaBe
@ MommaCDon't ask that, they might come for u..
Report Abuse
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@amaBokKatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.
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Dont forget to report back on your successful fraud.
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Labour Department and CCMA proved that there's no fraud on that Bok.lol
Report Abuse
MommaC
I have now opened three e-mail addresses. Cyndi Sangoma (nice ring to that), Cyndi Employee and Cyndi Employer. After extensive consultations with my Sangoma, we e-mailed my Employer to say that my ancestors took great exception to the Employee having to do filing. The Employer said that she wouldn't accept the medical note as it was not signed. After more extensive consultation we pointed out that a signature was irrelevant as the ancestors couldn't hold a pen too well. We are awaiting a replyReport Abuse
Dzel
Important facts are:1. she requested UNPAID leave,
2. the leave was turned down - why?
3. out of desperation she went on leave anyway and can prove her whereabouts.
It is important to note the nature of the "sickness" is not as per usual definition, it is said when one has an ancestral calling it manifests itself in their health and when this calling goes unanswered ones health can deteriorate possibly leading to death therefore this story needs to be put in its proper context whatever one believes in. This is not about one waking up day and deciding to get a sick note.
The question is whether the actions of both employer and employee reasonable., I think she has a strong case particularly when one looks at some flimsy reasons some people get booked off work for like suffering from stress. Surely if she believed her life was in danger the employer should have been more understanding, the judgement makes complete sense to me.
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MommaC
NeoBaBeThats okay :)
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DrunkenMaster
@ 17H00 I am going to consult.Report Abuse
Dzel
MommaCI have now opened three e-mail addresses. Cyndi Sangoma (nice ring to that), Cyndi Employee and Cyndi Employer.
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Hi MommaC, I don't know if making fun of African beliefs and culture is such a good idea but I suppose this is a free country so you can do ads you please. Try understanding the culture first.
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Dubul'Amanzi
@iPhone4 haha really? Ikhekhe lona awulithandi?Report Abuse
Dzel
RobinHBoogie. Not quite that. I believe that certain "traditions" simply have no place in a rational world. I couldn't give two hoots whether one is eastern, western, african, alien, or whatever. Let's not get ready to play the completely irrelevant race-card now please. Race has nothing to do with rational thinking.
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Rational thinking you say, trust me these culture are no more pathetic than a belief that is so devoid of logic and thin on fact it is held together by thin threads of blind faith and complete naivety. There is no religion that trumps Christianity on the rational thinking stakes but I don't see you standing in front of a church telling those people just how irrational their beliefs are.
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SOLUTIONS
I do not know if I want to laugh or cry, laugh at the idiocy or cry because I want to build a country with some people who are still 2000 years behind.Report Abuse
MaselaMaboea
@Tsek u dont what u r talking about boss but please note, For me, the important thing is to recognize and honor those who came before me. These are both ancestors of blood and ancestors of spirit. Because of them, I have blood and genes and life. Because of them I have heritage and traditions and practices. They are my roots and foundation - if it weren't for them, my life would be much poorer, if I even existed at all. and does not mean I am mampara...on which planet r u from?Report Abuse
Mosquer
Dubul'AmanziHi Mosquer, of God..
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Ohhh!! I see
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Shredder
Hahahahahaha, Ja nee. Mzansi for sure.Report Abuse
MommaC
DzelThis has absolutely nothing to do with African culture. Nowhere in African culture is there condoning of charlatans. In the old days, you studied to be a Sangoma with a known Sangoma 'master' and your studies took decades. The old Sangomas wouldn't take you on as an apprentice if they didn't know you as the knowledge they were passing on had to go to a person who would not mis-use it. They didn't take just anyone off the street and they didn't charge money for the teaching. It was a calling, not a quick buck.
If you think this sh!t where every dumbass crook can wake up in the morning and call themselves a 'sangoma' - then you are so far from the African Culture that you can't even see it.
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KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@Dzel
Important facts are:
1. she requested UNPAID leave,
2. the leave was turned down - why?
3. out of desperation she went on leave anyway and can prove her whereabouts.
It is important to note the nature of the "sickness" is not as per usual definition, it is said when one has an ancestral calling it manifests itself in their health and when this calling goes unanswered ones health can deteriorate possibly leading to death therefore this story needs to be put in its proper context whatever one believes in. This is not about one waking up day and deciding to get a sick note.
The question is whether the actions of both employer and employee reasonable., I think she has a strong case particularly when one looks at some flimsy reasons some people get booked off work for like suffering from stress. Surely if she believed her life was in danger the employer should have been more understanding, the judgement makes complete sense to me.
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You're a man old little boy,well put and this make sense now to many on this article I hope.
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KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@SOLUTIONSI do not know if I want to laugh or cry, laugh at the idiocy or cry because I want to build a country with some people who are still 2000 years behind.
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You want to do all,go on do all.
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Mothata
"South Africa was a land of many cultures and that traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture of many of the country's inhabitants."------------------
Thats true. if it is not you culture we dont expect you to understand.
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dennilton1
I SALUTE LABOURT COURT, THE RULING WAS REVELENT AND ITS A VICTORY TO ALL SAFRICAN christian and ANTICHRISTIAN. ppl like mosquer, solution and others are doomed by bbl because they are also appease the gods, the like of peter, abraham, john, jesus etc because those died more 2000 yrs ago.Report Abuse
iPhone4
Dubul'Amanzi@iPhone4 haha really? Ikhekhe lona awulithandi?
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The only khekhe that's recognized in my life mine unfortunately or fortunately(however you look at it) I'm one of those people with no sweet tooth..
Now am starting to doubt you, shouldn't you know that already? ci ci ci
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Dzel
MommaCThis has absolutely nothing to do with African culture. Nowhere in African culture is there condoning of charlatans.
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You start off on a wrong note by trying to teach African culture to an African, it does not suit you MommaC. Now let those who know about these things school you. Ancestors are said to choose people through whom they will communicate with the living so one would be given the gift of vision – for a lack of a better word – which we call a calling and one has to answer to this calling. Some say this gift is passed on from generation to generation for some it is a gift they are born with, etc, etc.
There will be signs of this gift, perhaps one can have visions, in other cases it takes someone to identify a child with that vision. Point is neither of us know how exactly she came to know of this gift so neither of us is qualified to comment on whether the calling is real or not least of all you MommaC.
All I know is my mother went through something like this; I was p-d off, had difficulty to understand and come to terms with but it is something I had to accept and learn to leave with. Just let her be MommaC, she would not have attended ukuthwasa had she not thought her calling is genuine, stop assuming you know more than the rest of us.
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KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@MosquerThe sick note stated that she was being "badly tormented by her ancestors".
Corrections: tormented by evil spirits.
==========================
What are you trying to say wena Mosquito?
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Bhoza_01
someone is coming back to the right senses now, why Africans should be subjected to the western way of doing things... Izango should be be given power that's who we are as black people...Report Abuse
Dubul'Amanzi
Dubul'Amanzi@iPhone4 haha really? Ikhekhe lona awulithandi?
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The only khekhe that's recognized in my life mine unfortunately or fortunately(however you look at it) I'm one of those people with no sweet tooth..
Now am starting to doubt you, shouldn't you know that already? ci ci ci
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@iPhone4 lol, never doubt me,ngikuthsela iqiniso haha.
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MaselaMaboea
@MosquerMayb u ancestors r evil spirits chief, not mine ok...
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Mogwapatholo
MommaCSo if any old poep can claim to be a sangoma, could I now write a prescription for a salary raise as is determined by some obscure ancestor and will the company have to fulfill that prescription?
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Stop diverting the objective of this rulling, has a doctor ever prescibed a salary increase or is it about health reasons?
Now this is what ai call african. Don't get me wrong i don't trust any sangoma or believe in those thing but i'm saying let's give ppl equal chances to practice their believes and culture.
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Dzel
RobinHHMMM THANKS MODERATOR FOR THAT ABSURD REMOVAL:
DZEL: Then you have clearly not read any of the posts I have written on the irrationality of the oh-so-many born-again folk that pepper this site. I do it all the time.
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Do you believe in ghosts Robin?
Let's take this discussion to the next level: do you believe we as human beings have a spirit, if so what is this spirit and what happens to this spirit when one dies?
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Tsek
MaselaMaboea@Tsek u dont what u r talking about boss but please note, For me, the important thing is to recognize and honor those who came before me. These are both ancestors of blood and ancestors of spirit. Because of them, I have blood and genes and life. Because of them I have heritage and traditions and practices. They are my roots and foundation - if it weren't for them, my life would be much poorer, if I even existed at all. and does not mean I am mampara...on which planet r u from?
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plz next tym halla wen u see them. well chief thats ur believe im not judging you but nna i only believe in Jesus not bunch of dead spirits..
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amaBok
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe@amaBok
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.
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Dont forget to report back on your successful fraud.
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Labour Department and CCMA proved that there's no fraud on that Bok.lol
So when did your ancestors start the tormenting Katataka?
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MommaC
DzelYou are making an awful lot of assumptions there city boy.
I presume you don't understand a computer because it isn't a traditional African tool and, as such, cannot be learned? Or that christianity cannot be understood in Chiina because it is not a traditional Chiinese belief and cannot be taught?
I never said that it was not a calling. What I said was that you cannot wake up in the morning and call yourself a Sangoma. It is a long arduous training - not a few long weekends. She may well be an Itewasa but a Sangoma?
I see those leaflets around town and I hear the stories about how 21 year old boys are running initiation schools and IT MAKES ME SICK. It is contributing absolutely nothing to the country or the respect of culture. It is simply making it into a sick parody of what it once was
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Heavenlydevine
hebanna...Report Abuse
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@DanielrjvvurenF*ck yeah next time I want to get away from my job I'm going there! I have such nice ancestors as DF Malan and connected to Verwoerd too I can just be like "OMG the Anti-Christ is saying I must look out for the Rooi Gevaar!!! They are tormenting my brain!!!" AND then run around with undies on my head eating a BANANA! Can't wait!!
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Lol.
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JahNeh
@Tlakenyobehle!but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to do
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What a moron!
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amaBok
Sorry I meant KatakataDzel
So you want to take it to the next level. Which one would that be. A debate about whether ancestors and angels speak the same language?
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KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
amaBokKatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@amaBok
@KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I'll have to go and see sangoma too on Monday he'll give me a sick note and 5 days leave to rest.
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Dont forget to report back on your successful fraud.
=======
Labour Department and CCMA proved that there's no fraud on that Bok.lol
So when did your ancestors start the tormenting Katataka?
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They didnt for now but on Monday morning they'll start tormenting me or they will start on Sunday afternoon.
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SOLUTIONS
DZELIt is important to note the nature of the "sickness" is not as per usual definition, it is said when one has an ancestral calling it manifests itself in their health and when this calling goes unanswered ones health can deteriorate possibly leading to death therefore this story needs to be put in its
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I just p!ssed myself reading the above with laughter, and then after the above you put "proper context" thanks for a great laugh.
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RobinH
Dzel: What I believe is irrelevant, but for the record, I don't find the notion of intangibles like Souls, ghosts etc. of any use to me. When I die I die. My hereafter is the impression I make on the world around me. What next level could there be to a discussion of the irrational?Report Abuse
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
May be this is the right time for pastors to issue sick note too since they chase the demons tormrnting people with Jesus' name.Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
RobinHWasn't that the thing from "What dreams may come"? We all make our own afterlife. It is a perception of our self conscious or some physiological thing way above my brain function?
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guiliano
this is a right step to the right direction, now sangomas should get their own rubber stamps.Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
KatakataBest idea ever! I'm going to the pope and asking him to pardon me from work because it interferes with my ability to bring on the end of the world and I would need 666 days off. Hahah lets do it and go contest it in court.
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JahNeh
I am amused that so many of you belittle the African belief in ancestors, but quick to embrace the western belief of some supper being residing somewhere in the sky.Personally to me if one is far fetched, I don't see why the other is credible.
Maybe it's true that d@rkies believe and respect anything that comes from the west!
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SOLUTIONS
KatakataEmaotoAditshepeThey didnt for now but on Monday morning they'll start tormenting me or they will start on Sunday afternoon.
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As long as they don't start while the soccer is on hey?
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MommaC
MogwapatholoMy problem is not with the Sangomas. My problem is with the complete lack of control over who may or may not call themselves a Sangoma. We have whole departments full of people who are supposed to oversee how the traditional healers are portrayed and none of them do a damn thing. All they do is eat tax money.
What of these people who dig up graves or take body parts off of children? How the hell do they get called a 'sangoma' when everything about being a Sangoma is completely against it? Do we now excuse that as part of the African Culture because they say so?
I'm sorry but I am just tired of this 'culture' excuse when none of it has a damn thing to do with the culture. The beautiful culture of Africa is in grave danger of being twisted into something our forefathers would not even recognise. Until such time as the traditional leaders stand up and do their job, I will continue to fight against this abomination
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Dzel
MommaCI see those leaflets around town and I hear the stories about how 21 year old boys are running initiation schools and IT MAKES ME SICK. It is contributing absolutely nothing to the country or the respect of culture. It is simply making it into a sick parody of what it once was
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I am not making assumptions you have not confirmed by your dismissive attitude and sarcastic comments. True you have fly by nights springing up but that does not nullify her claim of an ancestral calling or does it? Let me not assume then, maybe you know this woman personally and can confirm she is a fake.
Can you confirm this MommaC or maybe it is you that is coming up with half-baked assumptions?
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Decibels
well done SA Justice system for a change.....AMANDLA!!Report Abuse
Dzel
SOLUTIONSI just p!ssed myself reading the above with laughter, and then after the above you put "proper context" thanks for a great laugh.
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Glad I could be of service, by the way how is your crush on Khanyi coming long?
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RobinH
Daniel. Sorry, but I really wouldn't know. It's just what I have believed throughout my "adult" life.Jahneh. And then of course there are some who find the whole lot a mite irrational.
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Mosquer
MaselaMaboea@Mosquer
Mayb u ancestors r evil spirits chief, not mine ok...
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Ke madimone dilo tšeo wena.
@KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I am saying your ancestors are demons. red one perhaps
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amaBok
Religious nuts come in all flavours dear friends. And all colours too. For example in numerous schools in the USA creationism is taught as if it were equivalent to science. In some schools ONLY creationism is taught. This is defended as being a 1st amendment right. Freedom of belief and freedom of speech. Is this sensible. Should they throw out the 1st amendment because it allows absurdities such as these? Or should creationist otherwise be prevented from infecting society with their dishonest,wrong and backward thinking. Should their backwardness be enshrined as the right to teach lies. Should our law tolerate a debasement of the employer employee contracts on grounds such as these. I think not. By all means practice your superstitions in private but do not drag it into non-personal relationshipsReport Abuse
SOLUTIONS
DzelGlad I could be of service, by the way how is your crush on Khanyi coming long?
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Sorry enlighten me, who is Khanyi
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Danielrjvvuren
Ancestors tormenting her. About what? "You used the wrong OMO when washing my cloths back in 1972!!!" "The pap you made in 1984 was burnt now I am here for your soul!!!"Report Abuse
WordofGod
@MosquerThe sick note stated that she was being "badly tormented by her ancestors".
Corrections: tormented by evil spirits
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dont start with that neh! u awakening di spokepersons tsa darkness. o tla ba bona soos nou...lol
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Blackthought
Interesting....this is the kind of open mindedness that needs to be instilled to ALL in our new dispensation. Decolonisation of our minds can only go a long way in the restoration of the dignity and self confidence of Black people. Congra to CCMA bench!!!Report Abuse
SOLUTIONS
DanielrjvvurenAncestors tormenting her. About what? "You used the wrong OMO when washing my cloths back in 1972!!!" "The pap you made in 1984 was burnt now I am here for your soul!!!"
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LOLOLOLOLOLOL, I now know where that OMO ad is coming from, it is an ancestor standing there saying, AII EHH EHHH, Just one small cap is ENOUGH. lolololololol AIIII EH EH.
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amaBok
Katakatainking
Those are not ancestors mfo those are evil spirits from drinking skokiaan on saturday
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Danielrjvvuren
BlackthoughtI agree and disagree I am happy that they allow for some reasoning within the legal system and it is not a bad idea to take such ideologies as factors to a case but to ratify such a precarious thing will open the floodgates for simple trivial issues. Now anyone can go to a traditional healer(can't spell that word) and take a month off. Rather make a new motion than just allowing for the reinstatement.
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MommaC
DzelI don't understand your question or what it has to do with me not believing her story. You make this wild assumption that being white means that I have never spoken to, not been a part of, any culture other than the NG Kerk. You also make the assumption that I know nothing about any traditional African culture or know what goes into becoming something as important as a Sangoma. Just as you also assume that every person who is contacted by their ancestors is automatically a Sangoma or, at the least, becomes a Sangoma. They don't
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Danielrjvvuren
SOLUTIONSSee the spook floating there " BOIOOO-Ehe-Ehe OOnnneee Smmaalll Caaappppp SIESIE!!! I torment your wasteful ways!!!
Report Abuse
Dzel
amaBokSo you want to take it to the next level. Which one would that be. A debate about whether ancestors and angels speak the same language?
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Something like that, lets exermine the foundations of various beliefs and see which sounds more practical and reasonable. For us to get there perhaps we need to define what a spirit is if we can
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RobinH
Sorry people. I give up on the moderator today. I simply cannot post my response with my views on "soul", "ghosts" and the hereafter. Clearly there are people who find rational thinking offensive. So Dzel, it's not that I don't want to respond, but I just am tired of the lunatic censor. Explaining myself is just not worth the effort.Report Abuse
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
I pass my thank you to this article since someone resurrected because of it,who knows may be Jesus is back.@WordofGod
Who are those spokepersons of the darkness if I may ask?
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Dzel
MommaCI don't understand your question or what it has to do with me not believing her story. You make this wild assumption that being white means that I have never spoken to, not been a part of, any culture other than the NG Kerk.
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Perhaps that is the problem; one is speaking from hearsay and the other from experience that is closed to home. My point is simple, besides this article you don't know this woman's personal experience, circumstances and what drove her to put her job on the line. It is unfair of you to dismiss her, ridicule and and start making jokes; that can only come from a position of assumed enlightenment which is highly presumptuous of you.
All I am asking is you let her be, is that too much to ask for?
Of course I can ask anyone off the street but that does not make me an expert does it?
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RobinH
Dzel: Clear liquid that comes in bottles?Report Abuse
amaBok
In Afghanistan some locals called Taliban believe that Mohammed forbade the teaching of girls to read and write. They believe it so much that they shot a schoolgirl just the other day. Is such a belief defensible.In South Africa it happens that old women (usually) are burnt for being witches. Is such a belief defensible.
Also in SA strong muthi is obtained I am told from ingesting human body parts in one form or another.
Also in SA The Nationalist Church swore blind that the Bible teaches that black people should be slaves.
All christian churches say you should give ten percent of your income to them. For this they will bless you. Thats worse than e tolling because if you don't your road will end in hell.
Ag nee man we must do better than this with our brains - god given or not.
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Danielrjvvuren
RobinHCreate a new profile. Its because you are using that one they mediating your profile. Had the same problem and made a new one. Become Robin-SickofMediation-H
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WordofGod
@katakahello sweetie pie. tlogela ditshele mann! ke fringos vandag...
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RobinH
Daniel. Thanks, I may just do that, but it's just a pain in the ......Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
Clear liquid that comes in bottles?Jesus did I just have a laugh when I figured that out. I LOL-ed so loud my boss had to come and see if I'm ok...
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amaBok
Dzel howzitSee above for my approach to "belief"
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midastouch
Robin H...Kindly refrain from taking jabs at things you obviously are painfully ignorant of!!!
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KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@WordofGodkataka
hello sweetie pie. tlogela ditshele mann! ke fringos vandag...
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LOL.Hello my skaatabolikie.
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Danielrjvvuren
midastouchThis is your misguided attempt of a retort? Everyday people comment stupidly on politics and economics but I don't see you, the Mr Robin Hood of Sowetan, reprimanding them when they comment about things they are ignorant about so please refrain from being vapid and hypocritical
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RobinH
Midas.With great respect, NO. Ignorance of irrational things is something I aspire to. Why not. AND I am enjoying myself. Get a sense of humour.Daniel. Thanks, Boet. I'm on form today, lol.
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Dzel
KatakataEmaotoAditshepeWho are those spokepersons of the da.rkness if I may ask?
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I th.ink I am to.p of her li.st, I am sur.e W.oG ta.kes out a cr.oss and ho.lds it agai.nst her com.puter sc.reen and s.tarts pra.ying fr.antically ev.ery tim.e she se.es my na.me.
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RobinH
"but I don't see you, the Mr Robin Hood of Sowetan, reprimanding them when they comment about things they are ignorant " Whoever made that remark clearly doesn't read many of my comments. It's virtually all I do, ridicule stupidity and deliberate ignorance. So with respect, Here's a raspberry for you.Report Abuse
Dzel
amaBokDzel howzit
See above for my approach to "belief"
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Good thanks, my questions were specific around what is a spirit. I suggest let us start from there then we can address the question on belief.
Your comments please kind sir.
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Mosquer
WordofGod@Mosquer
The sick note stated that she was being "badly tormented by her ancestors".
Corrections: tormented by evil spirits
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dont start with that neh! u awakening di spokepersons tsa darkness. o tla ba bona soos nou...lol
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They are already up.
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MsKinkyakaKamaSutra
The company appealed, and the Labour Appeals Court ruled in Mmelodi's favour, saying South Africa was a land of many cultures and that traditional Western culture could not be allowed to dominate the African culture of many of the country's inhabitants.*********************************************************************************************************888
The Judges have said a mouthful
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RobinH
Dzel: WONDERFUL!!!!! lolReport Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
RobinHNo Poepol... It was directed at Midas unfortunately you share the name to the legend so I thought there would be confusion. I am calling midas robin hood not u the person haha sorry
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Mosquer
DzelKatakataEmaotoAditshepe
Who are those spokepersons of the da.rkness if I may ask?
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I th.ink I am to.p of her li.st, I am sur.e W.oG ta.kes out a cr.oss and ho.lds it agai.nst her com.puter sc.reen and s.tarts pra.ying fr.antically ev.ery tim.e she se.es my na.me.
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So you think you are a threat to her
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MsKinkyakaKamaSutra
@Tlakenyobehle!but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to do
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I can read, write and now I am blogging :)
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MsKinkyakaKamaSutra
@iPhone4Is there a registered body like HPCSA for Sangomas?
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There is a governing bosy for traditional healers (and certificates)
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HoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious.why are b!ack SA dark!es so obsessed with w!tchcraft? I understand our parents but even young ones today, when things don’t go our way instead of looking within to find solutions its b0loi, short mkhulu, v00doo, z0mbie, etc. Hai man b!ack person you will forever wallow in your pit of self pity by always blaming things you cannot even prove exist. Young destiny is in your hands and not moloi or a sang0ma. Wake up b!ack people. Look at how you are being exploited by your own brothers from the rest of Africa especially Uganda who put adverts on your favourite newspapers advertising their services of bringing back lost lovers, getting a promotion (not through hard work), getting rid of your enemies etc. hai la swabisa man.
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Dzel
MosquerSo you think you are a threat to her
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I am the bogey man, the bearer of bad news and the ultimate anti-Christ. I am sure she will make a sign of the cross when she reads this.
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HoneyB
Sowetan are you on bathsalts again. Whats wrong with v00doo and zombie?Report Abuse
amaBok
DzelWithout being intentionally rude ,we won't have much to discuss because my idea of "spirit" is strictly connected to the living and not to the hereafter. Any discussion about angels, ancestors, demons and gods would purely be an abstract exercise since I emphatically reject the actuality of those notions.
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dennilton1
@DzelMommaC
I see those leaflets around town and I hear the stories about how 21 year old boys are running initiation schools and IT MAKES ME SICK. It is contributing absolutely nothing to the country or the respect of culture. It is simply making it into a sick parody of what it once was
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I am not making assumptions you have not confirmed by your dismissive attitude and sarcastic comments. True you have fly by nights springing up but that does not nullify her claim of an ancestral calling or does it? Let me not assume then, maybe you know this woman personally and can confirm she is a fake.
Can you confirm this MommaC or maybe it is you that is coming up with half-baked assumptions?
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the real tradional Healers never advertise on billboards or pamphlets but people who got help will tell
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Sompisi
@iPhone - The organization is THO = Traditional Healers Organization. www.traditionalhealth.org.zaOr they dance and cant write, go to www.mphuthungwana.co.za and by the way "SHE" is an Accountant or Visit.
Proffesor (Doctor) Mkhize in Umsamo i.e. www.umsamo.com
So as an Inyanga (IGEDLA) myself I'm proud of the Gift that my Ancestors bestowed on me.
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KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@DzelKatakataEmaotoAditshepe
Who are those spokepersons of the da.rkness if I may ask?
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I th.ink I am to.p of her li.st, I am sur.e W.oG ta.kes out a cr.oss and ho.lds it agai.nst her com.puter sc.reen and s.tarts pra.ying fr.antically ev.ery tim.e she se.es my na.me.
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And just below you it's me ,number 2 on the list may be and doenst bother me since i'm the child of Jehovah who knows the truth.
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Printa
Nangoku. I will never be white and I dont want to be lead by whitich rules.Report Abuse
Dzel
HoneyBhehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious. ... etc. hai la swabisa man.
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... and do you believe in god?
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David-
As long as the sangoma is part of an acredited organisation, I see no reason that they cannot issue a sick note.Report Abuse
HoneyB
DzelHoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious. ... etc. hai la swabisa man.
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... and do you believe in god?
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broer what does God have to do with my post?
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David-
HoneyB as far as I am aware there is a huge difference between witchcraft and the practices of reputable Sangomas.Report Abuse
Moffdat
@ALL - Morning.Talk about friday news. Classic!
@Sompisi
If you really are a sangoma i have so many things to ask. What gift have you been given?
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Dzel
amaBokWithout being intentionally rude ,we won't have much to discuss because my idea of "spirit" is strictly connected to the living and not to the hereafter. Any discussion about angels, ancestors, demons and gods would purely be an abstract exercise since I emphatically reject the actuality of those notions.
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Not really, that you believe we have spirits is a good start actually.
So according to your beliefs where does this spirit come from, when and how does one acquire it and when one dies does it just vanish. Just like that, gone?
My question was specific around ghosts, what do you make of ghosts?
Have you watched Psychic Detectives for example where someone comes in, claims to be guided but the spirit of the living, makes revelations that one could not possibly make without guidance of sorts and they end up solving the case?
What is your opinion of this?
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amaBok
And if we doubt that fiddling with the unseen world can get even a beloved son of the soil into really bad trouble let us never ever ever forget Hansie "the devil made me do it" CronjeReport Abuse
Dzel
HoneyBDzel
HoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious. ... etc. hai la swabisa man.
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... and do you believe in god?
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broer what does God have to do with my post?
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Everything, in your words ba swabisa so we have to use the same logic to judge those who believe in god correct or is it only ridiculous when it is African beliefs one is talking about?
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MommaC
DzelLOL
Again with the assumptions.
By the way, do you know her personally?
If you are so willing to believe absolutely anything that is said, there is this bridge I have for sale that you may be interested in
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Dzel
amaBokAnd if we doubt that fiddling with the unseen world can get even a beloved son of the soil into really bad trouble let us never ever ever forget Hansie "the devil made me do it" Cronje
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Let's leave Hansie out of this; please answer my questions.
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RobinH
Daniel: Sorry about that then. I must say I was rather confused. Thanks for the explanation.amaBok: Well put, Sir.
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Mosquer
@KatakataEmaotoAditshepeThere is no need to doubt if you are a child of God or what.
A child of God has a partinity test not done in human manner or authorized by way of this world
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Dzel
MommaCLOL
Again with the assumptions.
By the way, do you know her personally?
If you are so willing to believe absolutely anything that is said, there is this bridge I have for sale that you may be interested in
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Of course I don't but I can draw from personal experience on this one as explained earlier, trust me that is way better than polling personal opinion and then thinking you know it all.
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WordofGod
@WordofGodlol...ja neh
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amaBok
DzelI do use the word spirit,,but as a description of character and not as an entity in itself such as a soul. This makes the idea of ghosts troublesome because that would mean there is some component of humans (and other animals?) that is somehow outside of the body and outlives it. In all the history of humankind the record for observation of this phenomenon is represented by dishonest accounts and none that are credible. So unless the Sowetan or Die Son comes up with genuinely testable evidence I will remain a vocal skeptic
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MommaC
DzelOh sorry Dzel, I forgot that in your short little life, your personal experience trumps everyone elses'
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Moffdat
@amaBokI understand your skeptism in fact i used to be the same way until someone asked me if i could comprehend death. So i will ask you the same!
Can you imagine/comprehend or even contemplate death or non-existence?
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amaBok
DzelI recommend you to a website called s k e p t i c . c o m. it has wonderfully informative articles on all topics such as these.
As for Psychic Detectives. I dont think its wise to base your sense of reality on a tv show. Although of course very many people do. Sadly.
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Danielrjvvuren
RobinHYeah when I wrote it I thought Oh k@k hope everyone understands. hahah
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RobinH
No prob, my friend.Report Abuse
Dzel
amaBokI do use the word spirit,,but as a description of character and not as an entity in itself such as a soul. This makes the idea of ghosts troublesome because that would mean there is some component of humans (and other animals?) that is somehow outside of the body and outlives it
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A definition of character, but isn't that a function or derivative of the brain meaning one has to be alive then with a functional brain for them to have a spirit. Is that what a spirit is though, I would have thought it is what makes us alive or is at the core of our very being which allows us to breath and think and do the things that make us alive. Is spirit the same thing as our brain which then translate to cognitive ability, the ability to power the human body and makes us function as people and individuals?
To borrow from technology; I would have thought the spirit was more of an operating system and our brain as the processor. Using this analogy you are saying the brain is the operating system, correct?
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KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@MosquerKatakataEmaotoAditshepe
There is no need to doubt if you are a child of God or what.
A child of God has a partinity test not done in human manner or authorized by way of this world.
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You're lost wena maan,when nicodemus says to Jesus"no one will perform a miracle if Jehovah is not with him Jesus didnt disagrees"so what does this mean to you since to even you can heal or perform the miracles if Jehovah is with you.
Go and read John 3:1-21.
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Ornate
@Tlakenyobehle!but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to do
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Shem, I am a Postgrad student, and practising to be a Sangoma, we also have Ministers, Doctors etc. who are Sangomas, so shut before you talk about something that you dont know
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Dubul'Amanzi
@Ornate Thokoza gogo...Report Abuse
RobinH
Ornate: With respect, the fact that you are learning the "trade" in no way makes the notions rational.Report Abuse
amaBok
MoffdatNot being able to comprehend death is one of the reasons I try so hard to make the best of life. Not just for me but also for those around me. If this is all I've got I'd better be paying attention. Often that doesnt work out so well but hey you gotta keep trying.
You are right of course that incomprehension fear and awe has troubled far bigger "souls" than mine and produced some of the greatest intellectual and artistic efforts of al time. But that doesn't prove there is a hereafter.
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Dzel
amaBokI recommend you to a website called s k e p t i c . c o m. it has wonderfully informative articles on all topics such as these.
As for Psychic Detectives. I dont think its wise to base your sense of reality on a tv show. Although of course very many people do. Sadly.
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I could go and search for that website or we can discuss the topic and see what makes sense, I prefer the latter. The tv programme purports to depict real cases, real events, real people solving real cases unless you can prove the content is factual or made up I have no reason to dismiss its content. Surely we should be discussing the probability of content being true or not rather than dismiss the show outright.
The reason I use the show is to get both you and me thinking rather than holding on to our beliefs, let's test the rationality thereof. Come on amaBoks, surely you can reason your way through this debate.
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Danielrjvvuren
Guys another "Point of view" Debate no one is wrong no one is right. The idea that something like this is allowed without actual physical proof is what is getting me. Yes it is hard to quantify such things but to force an employer to re-employ and obviously lacks worker is whats puzzling me, but the court has ruled so its out of our hands just watch as this blows out of proportionReport Abuse
Galfrend
Ornate - Can I ask you some questions if you dont mind?Report Abuse
Moffdat
OrnateI've got one particular question to ask about gotwasa
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oldlady12
I would have imagined that if one does not want to accept the Western rules, then don't work for a Western company. I mean, if I am told to bring a letter from a Sangoma when I am sick, then I simply won't accept a job at that company. This is exactly the kind of ruling that makes companies careful of employing certain groups of people, and one of the reasons I am glad I took JJQ's advice, paid off all my workers and closed my company.Report Abuse
paracute
Vumani Bo! Si ya vuma makhosiReport Abuse
Boogie1985
Robin not pulling the race card i gues somethings will never change, i personaly dont think you are actualy in a position to say some practices dont have a place........................, to you some practices might be meaningless since but to the next person its another story. Its high time people from different designations are treated with the same repsect in this country, no believe noh tradition should be exhauled above the other after all we are living in a democratic country. P.S. i do not believe in these practices but i believe in showing respect to my fellow human being in every sense of the wordReport Abuse
Moffdat
amaBokbut it does indicate an intrinsic human conception which we all feel. Atheist or religious bigot.
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Dzel
oldlady12I would have imagined that if one does not want to accept the Western rules, then don't work for a Western company.... IN AN AFRICAN COUNTRY
We are all entitled to leave oldlady, is taking leave - unpaid nogal - a foreign concept in "a Western company". You do know leave is enshrined in our Constitution right?
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MommaC
DanielrjvvurenThat is exactly what my problem with this is. Modern medical doctors don't know it all BUT they have a certificate to say that they passed an exam and did their 'apprenticeship' and are held liable for any cockups they make. With this lot, it is just a decision to wake up in the morning and put 'Sangoma' in front of your name. Just look at how many hongfong sangomas are on this string. You'd swear it was one in two who is suddenly qualified.
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amaBok
DzelI'm not sure that using an electro mechanical analogy (OS) is the best way to to look at human beings . My sense is that we have potential to be far more than that. But I do start from the supposition that this life is all we have. That said its an elegant mystery how all of these truly amazing functions are linked and coordinated to produce the stuff we do. One day though that mystery should be understood. The fact that neural pathways keep developing throughout our lives gives me great hope that what we have achieved even as youngsters can be exceeded as old timers.
But even such excitement at what we have done and could still do does not make me believe that there are supernatural hands guiding it all. Quite the contrary.
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sabza007
Good judgement, I like it. Although this kind of sick notes is open to abuse, but I like the reason that Western way of Consulting a doctor must not over rule the African way.Report Abuse
dennilton1
@Ornate@Tlakenyobehle!
but they cant write most of them mosdance so u mean she will give me a pen an paper to do
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Shem, I am a Postgrad student, and practising to be a Sangoma, we also have Ministers, Doctors etc. who are Sangomas, so shut before you talk about something that you dont know
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you go gal.
I am Accountant (CA) with practitioner and sooner will be training as traditional healer as i do have a calling.
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RobinH
Boogie. Well good for you, Sir. Incidentally I do NOT "exhaul" (?) any tradition above any other. Tradition serves little useful purpose in this global era.Report Abuse
Galfrend
Boogie1985GF likes this!!------------------------------------> but i believe in showing respect to my fellow human being in every sense of the word
Its all about respect. I dont believe in witchcraft and sangomas but I respect other people's choices.No need to ridicule or undermine other people's beliefs and think yours is superiour!
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oldlady12
Dzel, if African countries have problems with a Western company having Western rules, then they should not allow such companies to do business in their country. This woman first applied for "study" leave, and then produced a sick letter. A month long illness is a very serious illness, and even if she produced a doctor's note, I would have questioned that note. Obviously no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her, so she made another plan.Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
MommaCAnd the employer is powerless he must now just accept it. What is stopping her from doing it again? How can the court allow it. I am happy that they took a step into the right direction yes include such factors but now the precedents is set for more and more people to just claim they are tormented by spirits.
Moffdat
You better at the law than I am what is your spin on the legal implications of allowing such a thing
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Moffdat
Boogie1985'Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior, Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned - WAR' - Halie Salasie I
Everytime i hear someone express truly objective reasoning i smile a Jesus smile! I give thanks...
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oldlady12
Dzel, BTW, unpaid leave, according to The Department of Labour, is AT THE DISCRETION of the employer.Report Abuse
MommaC
What I find most amusing is those who are on here saying that a year off is a damn good idea are the same lot who are vehemently against labour brokers. Now who the hell was supposed to do her work for a year and what was the company supposed to do with the temp employee once she came back? You are a business owner who now has to suddenly train someone to do a job and you don't know how long they will have to do it or even if the new sangoma is coming back. You are simply left hangingReport Abuse
HoneyB
DzelHoneyB
Dzel
HoneyB
hehehe!!! yah neh. let me post the same post i placed on tommy's article before it became superstitious. ... etc. hai la swabisa man.
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... and do you believe in god?
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broer what does God have to do with my post?
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Everything, in your words ba swabisa so we have to use the same logic to judge those who believe in god correct or is it only ridiculous when it is African beliefs one is talking about?
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Any belief which defies logic and is not tangible should fall into the 'swabisa' catagory. however when people start believing that a person can turn into a dokey at night so it can cause an accident then its a sign of a troubled society.
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Moffdat
@DanielrjvvurenI didn't even read the article... lol
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Dzel
amaBokBut even such excitement at what we have done and could still do does not make me believe that there are supernatural hands guiding it all. Quite the contrary.
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Supernatural, probably not. What is relevant though is I think there is general census on the concept of a spirit and that we each have one that is why we function the way we can. So no the question is if the spirit can exist in one's body why then is it so difficult to accept that it can also existing independently of a physical body. Why do we think one is dependent on the other?
Why is the idea that our spirits linger on long after we are gone so repulsive to western culture or is it when we call these spirits ancestors that we start being dismissive?
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Danielrjvvuren
MoffdatThe court held that(God how many times have you over your studies had to write that blady sentence) it was a valid excuse for missing work and that the employer had no right of dismissing her. I'm no labour lawyer but a month not at work and then you bring a Sangoma letter I will laugh in your face.
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Dzel
HoneyBAny belief which defies logic and is not tangible should fall into the 'swabisa' catagory. however when people start believing that a person can turn into a dokey at night so it can cause an accident then its a sign of a troubled society.
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Key terms: belief, defies logic, not tangible.
I'll ask again, does believing in god pass or fail the "swabisa" test?
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amaBok
DzelHaving such discussions is great up to a point. And that point comes when the mood changes from friendly dialogue to a contest. I don't have any desire to prove anything here. You are welcome to believe what you will. Its only my intention to share with you, at your request, my views on the topic. If you find that unsatisfactory you might try chatting with someone else.
As for what tv shows purport to be perhaps the number of past debates around how Idols is run should have persuaded you to be cautious in what you take to be fact.
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KeRataBasadi
I'm not shocked crackers would dismiss african culture as anything less that sh1t, then turn around and bottle their traditional medicine, steal their techniques not even crediting them and sell them back their sh1t exorbitantly.Report Abuse
amaBok
HoneyBJust dont start talking about THAT RABBIT!!!!!
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200803664
@Iphone 4Is there a registered body like HPCSA for Sangomas?
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yes, it is called South African Dingaka Association... SADA
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Moffdat
DanielrjvvurenI would love to see how this plays out though but knowing sowetan the whole article was taken out of context! The lawyer probably found a loop hole in the LRA or company's by-laws and they're trying to spin it off like the letter was valid!
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MommaC
DanielrjvvurenI come from a time period where, if you got pregnant, you left the company and re-applied for your job when you wanted to go back to work. To be honest, it was my decision to have a baby and it wasn't up to the boss to pay for my decision. Changing the labour laws actually made it much more difficult for women between the ages of 20 and 35 to be employed. How much more will this impact on women?
I was very facetious about it in my earlier comments but it is a viable reality for someone to suddenly claim that doing the filing is against their 'religion'.
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Danielrjvvuren
Do sangoma's get to go to sem1nars and get CPD po1nts?Report Abuse
Mosquer
A re fodišaA re phediša
nakong tše boima
maphelong a rona....
Maatla re neilwe
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HoneyB
DzelHoneyB
Any belief which defies logic and is not tangible should fall into the 'swabisa' catagory. however when people start believing that a person can turn into a dokey at night so it can cause an accident then its a sign of a troubled society.
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Key terms: belief, defies logic, not tangible.
I'll ask again, does believing in god pass or fail the "swabisa" test?
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Right question; wrong person. Ask them believers. You know what i am trying to say. I am in no mood for mind tango with you. Find a willing participant please Sir.
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HoneyB
DanielrjvvurenDo sangoma's get to go to sem1nars and get CPD po1nts?
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yes they do...you will stop teasing them once you need their assistance and they provide it.
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CYBORICO
@robinhcommenting on an issue that u have no knowledge will make u sound very stupid
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oldlady12
MommaC, the same rules applied during my era. No such thing as maternity leave. All the rights of employees nowadays, whether it be western rights or african rights, is a major contributing factor to companies keeping their staff numbers as low as possible, which in turn, is a major contributing factor to unemployment. Sometimes the win of a battle is so sweet that one forgets the greater war.Report Abuse
Moffdat
DanielrjvvurenThere's an annual shaman converence held in west Africa every year. Shaman/Sangomas/Inyanga's from all over the world gather and share knowledge. From America, Bolivia, Brazil etc. They always choose western or subsaharan africa for some weird reason. lol
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dennilton1
DanielrjvvurenDo sangoma's get to go to sem1nars and get CPD po1nts?
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Traditional Healer do go to seminars.
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Danielrjvvuren
MoffdatCould just be the case. I am not against setting such cases and using it but this is going to make any and all sangoma letters valid. I'm going to a Rabbi and I'm going to tell him I need a note because of mazel tov. It leads down to the same principles
MommaC
We had a lady come for legal advice when we had it open at VC and she was not promoted after years of service to the company and she worked years for the company but as soon as she got married she got promoted because they, the company, said that single women tend to not settle so she wanted to know if she could be compensated for the discrimination. Thats just not needed everything is just complicated.
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Dzel
oldlady12Dzel, if African countries have problems with a Western company having Western rules, then they should not allow such companies to do business in their country. This woman first applied for "study" leave, and then produced a sick letter. A month long illness is a very serious illness, and even if she produced a doctor's note, I would have questioned that note. Obviously no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her, so she made another plan.
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You know the mistake people make, employers in particular make is to think by paying one's salary we own the individual and they should bow to this monetary power we have over them. Your problem is you don't even understand what this is really about, you are only only at this from a power perspective. When one goes through ukuthwasa you just don't run around willingly, you go to a school or home where you are taken through your training so to validate her story one only has to look at where she was and what she was doing.
To argue "no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her" is to miss the point incompletely. I have explained that the illness is not the kind you think of and why, please feel free to re-read my comments.
The point though is we need to look at people as more than a commodity, an input cost under our financial spell and she / he say to jump when I say and how I say (s)he must jump. There is a human element to this story, one that you don't seem concerned about understanding. That she was willing to take unpaid leave to go an perform rituals she needed to perform should tell you this was not someone who sis this out of laziness or because she is unreasonable; there was a pressing need for her to o this and that could not have been post-postened.
People are not commodities oldlady or machines we would go far if we treated each other with mutual respect, not based on how much money we have and what power we think we have over the next person.
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Moffdat
oldlady12MommaC, the same rules applied during my era. No such thing as maternity leave. All the rights of employees nowadays, whether it be western rights or african rights, is a major contributing factor to companies keeping their staff numbers as low as possible, which in turn, is a major contributing factor to unemployment. Sometimes the win of a battle is so sweet that one forgets the greater war.
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You disturbed child. lol. I'm sorry you gave birth @ work. lol ha ha... Thank God for rights
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Danielrjvvuren
HoneyBIf I had the choice of having my legs amputated or be looked over by a traditional healer I would jump off a cliff. In no circumstance will I ever need the help. I do not discredit their role in society I really just did not know if they do keep up with the times.
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oldlady12
Moffdat, READ boet. As MommaC said, we had to resign when we were pregnant, and then re-applied later when we were ready to join the workforce.Report Abuse
Dzel
amaBokHaving such discussions is great up to a point. And that point comes when the mood changes from friendly dialogue to a contest.
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It doesn't have to be but I am glad you are honest enough to stop this before it degenerates, I respect that. Leave Idols out of this though, not even on the same galaxy so to speak.
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Dzel
oldlady12Moffdat, READ boet. As MommaC said, we had to resign when we were pregnant, and then re-applied later when we were ready to join the workforce.
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so we are now using past human right violations to perpetuation modern day slavery where one does not have rights in the workplace?
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RobinH
Cyborico: With respect, being called stupid by you is a recommendation. Please have a wonderful day.Report Abuse
Mgaraji
Dzeloldlady12
Dzel, if African countries have problems with a Western company having Western rules, then they should not allow such companies to do business in their country. This woman first applied for "study" leave, and then produced a sick letter. A month long illness is a very serious illness, and even if she produced a doctor's note, I would have questioned that note. Obviously no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her, so she made another plan.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You know the mistake people make, employers in particular make is to think by paying one's salary we own the individual and they should bow to this monetary power we have over them. Your problem is you don't even understand what this is really about, you are only only at this from a power perspective. When one goes through ukuthwasa you just don't run around willingly, you go to a school or home where you are taken through your training so to validate her story one only has to look at where she was and what she was doing.
To argue "no self respecting doctor, black or white, was prepared to lie for her" is to miss the point incompletely. I have explained that the illness is not the kind you think of and why, please feel free to re-read my comments.
The point though is we need to look at people as more than a commodity, an input cost under our financial spell and she / he say to jump when I say and how I say (s)he must jump. There is a human element to this story, one that you don't seem concerned about understanding. That she was willing to take unpaid leave to go an perform rituals she needed to perform should tell you this was not someone who sis this out of laziness or because she is unreasonable; there was a pressing need for her to o this and that could not have been post-postened.
People are not commodities oldlady or machines we would go far if we treated each other with mutual respect, not based on how much money we have and what power we think we have over the next person.
__________________________
@Dzel
Well articulated
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Moffdat
oldlady12Moffdat, READ boet. As MommaC said, we had to resign when we were pregnant, and then re-applied later when we were ready to join the workforce.
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Ahhhhh. really? I'm sorry... i know i know don't cry. Medi-evil times were hard on everyone. But just try to forget la la. Okay? Forgive and forget la la. The only person who gets hurt by the hate is the hater. lol for some or other reason i can't stop laughing at how cruel the system used to be. lol ha ha
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HoneyB
DanielrjvvurenHoneyB
If I had the choice of having my legs amputated or be looked over by a traditional healer I would jump off a cliff. In no circumstance will I ever need the help. I do not discredit their role in society I really just did not know if they do keep up with the times.
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Daniel let me just say you never know until you know. There are amazing stories of sangomas working wonders you would not believe. These stories would change not only how you look at sangomas but also how you look at life in general.
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Moffdat
i meant medievalReport Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
HoneyBAgain I do think they do a good job for OTHER people but I personally do not want to be close to someone who is termed "Traditional Healer". Never have you heard a sangoma cure cancer but MEDICAL SCIENCE has rid me of my cancer thats what I am saying and to be frank they scare me.... Dam I'm so white sometimes haha
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oldlady12
Dzel, I think you are the one not understanding. Maybe you too, should learn to read. My problem here is not with the sangoma letter at all. My problem is with her applying for unpaid leave, and then that being denied, comes up with a sangomas letter for exactly the same period of time she wanted unpaid leave for in the first instance. And remember, just because you work for a company, doesn't mean you own them either. Somewhere there must be a set of rules that satisfies both parties, and i believe that is where The Labour Law comes in. The same labour law that does not make unpaid leave a right. She couldn't get what she wanted, so she used cheap tactics. She is actually the one making a mockery of African tradition, not me.Report Abuse
CYBORICO
RobinHCyborico: With respect, being called stupid by you is a recommendation. Please have a wonderful day.
i said u sound stupid, but ya whatever u deducted from it i dont care, i'll still have a good day whether u wish for it or not
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oldlady12
Sorry, above comment to Mgaraji, not Dzel.Report Abuse
T.C.T
perfect perfect ruling coming from CCMA atleast they are not ignorant to CULTURAL/TRADISION issues like some useless christians in this blog who turned there back from there own forefathers..eish wat a big shame...Report Abuse
MommaC
oldlady12Can't blame them though. With labour laws the way they are now, the less staff you have, the less headaches.
Maybe we should go back to those days. At least back then, if you wanted to have a baby, you REALLY wanted a baby so you didn't leave it locked up alone whilst going kroeg toe or locked in the car outside the casino.
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manu.menne
Mgqumeni also has right to mutiReport Abuse
manu.menne
RSA laws are not back to back. It depends who you areReport Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
oldlady12Clap clap clap Please take a bow. That was amazing! Always loved your retorts.
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oldlady12
T.C.T, so what do you want from us? If we support our forefathers, (Verwoerd, Botha) we're wrong. If we turn our back on them, we're wrong, or did you perhaps mean to say black Christians.Report Abuse
MommaC
MoffdatI damn near did have my son at work. They were having a lot of trouble finding a replacement for me and I worked until the day before he was born :)
In some ways it was unfair but everything about being a woman was unfair. You got half the salary, double the workload and your boss got all the credit. In other ways it was fine as we didn't HAVE to go back to work when the baby was 3 months old.
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amaBok
Its very interesting to see that a "belief", which is something we choose as an individual can produce a "right" which is binding on everyone else in society whether they chose it or not.Perhaps we need to look more closely at this issue of binding others to our choices without them having any part of the decision.
Along these lines why would it be legitimate for an employee to impose their beliefs on the employer with the employer having no right to redress.
Such a decision makes no sense. Could these judges have been bewitched????????? :O
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Ornate
Dubul'Amanzi@Ornate Thokoza gogo...
Thokoza..........@Galfrend and Moffat, u are free to ask any question my email gtsmdm@yahoo.com. Sure Dennilton1, double gifted, thats who we are, in books and in reading other peoples minds....ayoba,
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CYBORICO
@oldlady12Can't blame them though. With labour laws the way they are now, the less staff you have, the less headaches.
and thanks to those labour laws the black employees have some protection, gone r the days when the employer will abuse u to death then fire u for being sick, then replace u with someone who will start with a salary to afford only transport to get to work. Halleluja the tables r turning, next it will be the labour brokers(fraud)
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T.C.T
oldlady12pity you are mixed up your forefathers dont belong in this land,it is you who are busy irritating owners of this land....some black christians wer taught to blv in that crap story via educational system that wer created to make blacks turn away from their original blvs.
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Dzel
oldlady12Dzel, I think you are the one not understanding... My problem is with her applying for unpaid leave, and then that being denied, comes up with a sangomas letter for exactly the same period of time she wanted unpaid leave for in the first instance...Somewhere there must be a set of rules that satisfies both parties, and i believe that is where The Labour Law comes in. ...She couldn't get what she wanted, so she used cheap tactics. She is actually the one making a mockery of African tradition, not me.
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OK, let’s go back a few steps maybe it will sink in this time.
1. When she applied for medical leave it was because she needed to answer a calling, a calling which if not answered could have been a treat to her life, whether you believe this or not is irrelevant.
2. She applied for leave which was denied but because of the point above she decided to go anyway, why is it surprising the note is for the exact same period given she applied for leave to get this training? What is confusing you here oldlady?
3. She went to the Labour Court and her actions adjudged reasonable under the circumstances, again what should I clarify for you so we are on the same page.
Your problem is you think she is being deceitful in her actions; I have been trying to explain to people like you who don’t understand the concept why her story has merit. She genuinely thought she needed to go through ukuthwasa, she went through the training and afterwards went to work with proof of this training. Which part do you think is a lie or made up oldlady and why?
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oldlady12
Moffdat, whatever. We PLANNED boet. Something which is indead a foreign concept to today's society. We didn't have babies if we could not afford time off work, and we certainly did not have babies without interested, present, supportive loving and paying husbands. See, not all things western are bad.Report Abuse
Pitso.MCCMA.SAFA
SiyavumaReport Abuse
Moffdat
amaBoklol ha ha
Do you remember the story about the people in KZN who got struck by a lightning bolt at the funeral of someone who got struck by a lightning bolt? I remember the premier or the mayor saying they would investigate where the lightning bolt came from... lol. There's no place like home.....
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HoneyB
DanielrjvvurenHoneyB
Again I do think they do a good job for OTHER people but I personally do not want to be close to someone who is termed "Traditional Healer". Never have you heard a sangoma cure cancer but MEDICAL SCIENCE has rid me of my cancer thats what I am saying and to be frank they scare me.... Dam I'm so white sometimes haha
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Well i think you are letting your paleness cloud the thinking part of your brain. Look do you expect sangomas to announce to the whole world what they can and cannot cure. Let me let you in on something you will not know because of your whiteness. Most genuine sangomas are not lapha zonkes, they specialise in one or two conditions and they do not accept your money until you are healed and even then they do not charge a standard price. they let you choose what the amount you wish to pay. I know a number of whites like you who have consulted sangomas so its not about being white or not.
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CYBORICO
@amaBokIts very interesting to see that a "belief", which is something we choose as an individual can produce a "right" which is binding on everyone else in society whether they chose it or not.
this has nothing to do with belief, the doctors recomended that she does this training, and she found out about it after seeking help for troubles/sickness she was having, lack of knowledge on the issue will make u say stupid things like that other self righteuse guy from CT
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HoneyB
T.C.T===============
you're still alive? anyhow who are you to say who does and doesnt belong in this land? SA is for all who live in it baba. take that to tebabank!
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Danielrjvvuren
HoneyBWell maybe I must just go see hey? Know any good sangomas in Durban? Maybe they can cure me of my bias?
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amaBok
Old- Lady it seems that the gap between those insisting on their right to believe self serving twaddle and those who can tell a bald faced charade when it smacks them between the eyes is about as great as the wage differential.I wonder if there is a connection.
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oldlady12
Dzel, if she applied for medical leave first and formost, with her sangoma letter, no problem to me. She applied for unpaid leave first, , which to me indicates no medical condition at all. Then, when that unpaid leave was denied, she decided to still do her course, and produced a sangoma certificate. What is confusing to you here, Dzel? Think doctor's letter. You want to go to ...... for a 1 month holiday. You apply for unpaid leave. Your boss denies it. You go anyway, and upon returning you produce a medical doctor's note. if you cannot understand the deceitfulness of that, then nothing i can say or do will get you to understand. Anyways, if she wants to be a sangoma, why does she still want to work for someone? She should go practice her profession like any medical practitioner, seperate from places that is not part of her profession.Report Abuse
Sfefenyana
Big up to CCMA,where ws her Union?I hope she ws represented by employer seccumbed union NUMReport Abuse
HoneyB
DanielrjvvurenHoneyB
Well maybe I must just go see hey? Know any good sangomas in Durban? Maybe they can cure me of my bias?
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you need one who can cure balanitis too. it does come to the brain eventually you know.
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Boogie1985
Daneile and Oldlady, the fact that she won the case simply shows that she was well within her rights.Report Abuse
oldlady12
Moffdat, you said nothing about the west, east of south, but I did....or are only you allowed to say something about anything now?Report Abuse
spencerc777
'IF YOU GET CAUGHT STEALING, THAT MEANS THE ANCESTORS ARE UNHAPPY WITH YOU.Who of you westerners and white skinned SA's know that?
In the light of, now do you understand rampant fraud, theft, theft of company time and tendterpreneuring?
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amaBok
CyboricoSorry mac just read the story again. It wasn't doctor(s) who told her to get the training. It was a sangoma. Now help me if I am wrong but there is a pretty big difference between the two types of healing. There is a difference in the way they diagnose in the way they prescribe, in the ethical environment damn boy they don't even use the same clinical definitions for disease. I mean do "germs" even exist in sangoma science?
So when you say doctor(s) aren't you putting sangomas in a bad light. I mean if you wanna use the trad approach at least be consistent.
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Moffdat
oldlady12Moffdat, whatever. We PLANNED boet.
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oldlady please stop calling me boet. The thought of an old lady who smokes 20 cigarettes a day, with twelve cats and proud of her enslaved past calling me boet/bra/mfwethu/boss/auti is unnerving. lol
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oldlady12
T.C.T, so you did mean black Christians?Boogie1985, I believe an appeal will overturn it. I think the employers concentrated too much on the sangoma letter (whether it is permissable or not), while they should have concentrated on her deceit.
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Danielrjvvuren
HoneyBNo I am actually being sincere there I am willing to try it but what ever really...
Boogie1985
God my name is so mangled anyways, well within her rights doesn't make it right to do it. We are not complaining about her legal rights we are complaining that any decent person can see the big holes in the story's plot. Many people get off from murder was it their right to murder then? That is what you are implying then isn't it?
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Cl!ck-
I blame the arrival of Jan Van Riebeeck in 1652.. *Poor ancestors*Report Abuse
Danielrjvvuren
Cl!ck-I blame Verwoerds eyebrows!!!
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CYBORICO
@van vuurenyour d.octor tells u the pain u been having is due to your f.oreskin and recommends that u go get it cut, what do u do?
the problem here is not the women and her employer, its u guys thinking a sangoma is not d.octor enough, well if he wasnot, the b.lack population will be dwingling towards e.xtinction, but look at our numbers, same sangoma saved many a life and delivered many a healthy baby and saved many a di.ck from falling off from a "wh.iteman created" s.exual in.fections
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amaBok
Just please dont anybody mention that dam RABBIT!!Report Abuse
oldlady12
Moffdat, boet, 40 cigarettes a day, with the odd joint (prescribed by my sangoma) inbetween, and 3 dogs. No cats....the sangoma is afraid of cats. My past, can't change that, but yes, very proud of the fact that my generation planned and provided for our children.Report Abuse
Moffdat
oldlady12Moffdat, you said nothing about the west, east of south, but I did....or are only you allowed to say something about anything now?
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I'm saying that because you were trying to make this a continental/racial/cultural issue. Read my comment again... sybiminal text everywhere.
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CYBORICO
amaBokCyborico
Sorry mac just read the story again. It wasn't doctor(s) who told her to get the training. It was a sangoma. Now help me if I am wrong but there is a pretty big difference between the two types of healing. There is a difference in the way they diagnose in the way they prescribe, in the ethical environment damn boy they don't even use the same clinical definitions for disease. I mean do "germs" even exist in sangoma science?
So when you say doctor(s) aren't you putting sangomas in a bad light. I mean if you wanna use the trad approach at least be consistent.
nc nc nc. look at what i am dealing with, sangoma is a doctor my friend, he just aint a western doctor, sorry i cant screem or write this with a bigger font coz i know it will take u years to understand it.
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Dzel
oldlady12Dzel, if she applied for medical leave first and formost, with her sangoma letter, no problem to me. She applied for unpaid leave first, , which to me indicates no medical condition at all. Then, when that unpaid leave was denied, she decided to still do her course, and produced a sangoma certificate. What is confusing to you here, Dzel?
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I fully understand the chronology of events oldlady but what I am saying is you miss what this whole situation is about hence you keep on going on about the sick note being convenient but it has to be since the leave was to attend the training. How many times do I have to explain to you her "sickness" cannot be understood in the context of one catching a virus and then falling sick as a consequence. You are struggling with the context, a context I have tried over and over to explain but I suppose I can't take the whiteness out of you so this is becoming a pointless exchange as you refuse to listen and understand what this story is about.
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oldlady12
Moffdat, go further up. Much further, and see that the pro sangomas after your application for leave failed people started turning it into a Western vs African thing. I followed suit, but yes, maybe you didn't use the Western vs African thing, and if so ( I'm not going to scroll up), then i do apologise to you.Report Abuse
MommaC
amaBokYou mean the anti-bullet proofing bunny :)
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amaBok
CyboricoA sangoma is not doctor enough. etc etc etc.
I dunno hey sangomas didnt do that much to stop the hiv massacre that your politcians refused to acknowledge.
Although there was some talk about raping 3 year olds having a marvelous curative effect . I dont know if that came from a sangoma though.
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RobinH
spencerc777: 'IF YOU GET CAUGHT STEALING, THAT MEANS THE ANCESTORS ARE UNHAPPY WITH YOU. - Who of you westerners and white skinned SA's know that?.......With respect, WTF has that got to with being rational? Oh my, and this is supposed to make the corruption etc okay, because as long as no-one gets caught the ancestors are happy? How rational is that? Give me a break.
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amaBok
Yebo Momma that one.Report Abuse
MommaC
spencerc777LOL
so your ancestors don't mind you stealing and they will even help you (if not encourage you) but if you pizz them off you get caught? Hells bell boet, what kind of family tree do you come from?
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Moffdat
oldlady12Moffdat, go further up. Much further, and see that the pro sangomas after your application for leave failed people started turning it into a Western vs African thing. I followed suit, but yes, maybe you didn't use the Western vs African thing, and if so ( I'm not going to scroll up), then i do apologise to you.
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That's okay racism is part of our culture! Please feel free to take pride in the evils of apartheid
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MommaC
amaBokso much for the old lucky rabbit foot charm
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Danielrjvvuren
CYBORICOOh God that first paragraph is idiotic at best... Anyways the problem is as Oldlady and MommaC has so many time tried to explain to you that the version of events prior to the month off is in question. Let me simplify in bullets.
The lady wanted
-Unpaid level
- was not granted
-Took time anyways
- Gave employer note from sangoma
- Demanded to be reinstated.
Now my contract states that if I need to take sick leave I need a Doctors note from a registered doctor of medicinal sciences. That is the nature of the contract. Why am I trying to talk to you? yes you are right be gone now.
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oldlady12
Dzel, maybe you're right. Maybe I do not understand. I thought sangomas rank up there with doctors curing sickness. I didn't know sangomas can override an employer in giving permission for training and study leave. So, in essence, if I get a calling to become a priest, my employer must allow me whatever time I need of to go do my studies, which are not related to his business at all, and my chief priest can give me a letter which overrides my employers powers? Thank the good Lord, the forefathers, the ancestors and any other god or devine power out there that I am not an employer anymore. Thank you JJQ too.Report Abuse
Dzel
oldlady12Moffdat, go further up. Much further, and see that the pro sangomas after your application for leave failed people started turning it into a Western vs African thing.
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You know sometimes when I read comments like these I truly believe blacks were too forgiving to allow for a transition as smooth as ours, sometimes it feels we are the only ones who compromised and some people never changed. One would have hoped we'd try to understand each other better, learn from each other so that when things like these happen we can judge from an informed perspective.
Sometimes I wonder if we ever reconciled or if we celebrated sporting victories together and thought we were now one nation. Attitudes and beliefs remain largely unchanged except a few exceptional cases, I find your dismissive attitude a bit disturbing oldlady. Here we are taking the time to contextualise the story and all you give back is ill-informed indignation.
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oldlady12
Anyways, my sangoma just booked me off. My doctor too, so TGIF.Report Abuse
Moffdat
oldlady12You want to make fun of me oldlady?
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Dzel
oldlady12Dzel, maybe you're right. Maybe I do not understand. I thought sangomas rank up there with doctors curing sickness. I didn't know sangomas can override an employer in giving permission for training and study leave. So, in essence, if I get a calling to become a priest, my employer must allow me whatever time I need of to go do my studies, which are not related to his business at all, and my chief priest can give me a letter which overrides my employers powers? Thank the good Lord, the forefathers, the ancestors and any other god or devine power out there that I am not an employer anymore. Thank you JJQ too.
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Employer's power ... to you this is about financial power isn't it? The employer pays your salary so he can kick you a thousand different ways and you should take it without complaining. The more I read your replies the more I think perhaps JJQ did your employees a favour by setting them free to look for an employer that understands each and everyone of us deserves to be treated with respect and to be looked at not only as the guy to dig trenches but as an individual who has needs and beliefs.
Your example is not a good one oldlady, let's try one of a Muslim who believes they have to take on a spiritual journey called the hajj. You know what that is right, the holiest of all pilgrimages in the Islam faith that every Muslim man has to take atleast once in their lifetime.
Do you think it would be fair and / or reasonable of an employer to refuse one permission to undertake this holy pilgrimage?
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MommaC
amaBokIts a bugger when a bunny has more powerful ancestors than a sangoma. Although, you wanna chop off my feet, I'd probably be able to come up with some powerful juju to get back at you too
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T.C.T
HoneyBT.C.T
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you're still alive? anyhow who are you to say who does and doesnt belong in this land? SA is for all who live in it baba. take that to tebabank
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Yes im alive and kicking!!!mmmhh i see you too you are alive shame atleast GOD is great!!! yes unders new laws and constitution SA is for all of us BUT historically its for blacks and belong to blacks
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CYBORICO
amaBokCyborico
A sangoma is not doctor enough. etc etc etc.
I dunno hey sangomas didnt do that much to stop the hiv massacre that your politcians refused to acknowledge.
Although there was some talk about raping 3 year olds having a marvelous curative effect . I dont know if that came from a sangoma though.
so did your western ARV work? what about the endless list of deadly side effect
didnt your elder people fall for the brainwash by NP that blacks are not human but animals?
bro there will always be people misleading other people but that dont mean the rest are fake and fraud aswell, a sangoma is indeed a doctor, but the belief in super naturals powers makes the sangoma not to progress in his healing profession, but that dont make him no doctor. as fo blaming the masses for being taken for a ride, i just made u a good example of your own president(botha) taking u for a ride so he could fullfill his evil plans
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KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
@oldlady12Moffdat...that's okay, racism is part of our culture... which culture do you belong to, if I may ask?
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Oldie i didnt think that today you'll publicly come out that ofcourse it's in your bloed racism but did.
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