JajazQueen

The black family structure needs all the help it can get. Good move. There should be incentives for marriage as well. These kids need to get married instead of this vat n sit sh!t. And this double standard on lobola should be investigated. Originally black people had no engagements, no promises to marry, they just married finish and klaar. Now men are taking advantage of this ambiguity and keep women hanging on lobola treating it as a promise to marry. Paying lobola is marriage whether there's a celebration or not.

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TheDictator

The government is really running out of options,policy after policy after policy.You cant force anybody to be a responsible father.
First the government destroyed the society (and families) by passing laws which are against our culture,majority faith and traditions(such were working well by the way).
Secondly they preached rights to women and kids and forgetting to teach them the responsibility that goes along with the rights.
Thirdly they created an environment to be unbearable for men to live,in the name of women empowerment.
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tpaz

@JajazQueen.....good points!


Married men to get grants......


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Papage

We also need to have a policy to stop women from opening their legs to all men, there are women with five kids from different fathers, what is wrong with them?
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MommaC

How about simply encouraging women to keep their legs together and not go for the speerm donor option?

Throughout nature, the females chose the BEST male to breed with. Whats with humans that think that some ny0pe addict is suddenly going to become a model father?
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Mosquer

Papage
We also need to have a policy to stop women from opening their legs to all men, there are women with five kids from different fathers, what is wrong with them?
**************************************************************************
Good one
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JajazQueen

@Papage
We also need to have a policy to stop women from opening their legs to all men, there are women with five kids from different fathers, what is wrong with them?
__________________________

We could look at the reasons why that happens....where do these men disappear to after fathering their first child with the woman? Leaving these women to look for another man to spawn their next child. People are bed hoppers both men and women. It's just that women often carry the evidence of sex by being pregnant and men do not.

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skhokho21

JajazQueen
And this double standard on lobola should be investigated. Originally black people had no engagements, no promises to marry, they just married finish and klaar. Now men are taking advantage of this ambiguity and keep women hanging on lobola treating it as a promise to marry. Paying lobola is marriage whether there's a celebration or not.
....................................................................................................................................................
I disagree with you, paying lobola is not marriage, its only an engagement/intention to get married or asking the parents of your future w i f e for a permission to marry her. Once you pay over 50% of the required lobola, then her father will give you a go ahead to get married but you still liable for the outstanding debt. Once you sign that marriage certificate & pronounced husband & w i f e, only then you can say you married in the eyes of the RSA law.
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BaleliM

This is not going to work. They have dismally failed to effectively implement child support and they think they can force these good for nothing men that are abandoning their kids and responsibility?
Get an example of how the USA works on paying maintenance. You aint getting paid by anyone before they deduct maintenance!
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tpaz

@JajazQueen...men don't disappear....we chase them away....sometimes we cheat for money to feed the kids after our wrong choices.
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BaleliM

My take is- The pressure that we as africans put on each other is the reason many marry just so they can be called Mrs. It is this thinking that a woman is not complete until she is married and this is evident in our communities and even in churches.
The pressure makes us marry the wrong person and we end up bringing innocent kids to the table and only once that happens, do we wake up from the dream and leave the marriage. The man then goes off to find the right partner and as a woman, the children go with you everywhere.
We can not force men to do what they do not want to do.
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JajazQueen

skhokho21
JajazQueen
And this double standard on lobola should be investigated. Originally black people had no engagements, no promises to marry, they just married finish and klaar. Now men are taking advantage of this ambiguity and keep women hanging on lobola treating it as a promise to marry. Paying lobola is marriage whether there's a celebration or not.
....................................................................................................................................................
I disagree with you, paying lobola is not marriage, its only an engagement/intention to get married or asking the parents of your future w i f e for a permission to marry her. Once you pay over 50% of the required lobola, then her father will give you a go ahead to get married but you still liable for the outstanding debt. Once you sign that marriage certificate & pronounced husband & w i f e, only then you can say you married in the eyes of the RSA law.
_________________________

That's the modern version. The parents used to "see" a girl who was suitable. Talk to her parents and pay for her to come and stay with them in marriage to their son. If the youngsters fell inlove on their own and decided to marry? There were no engagements, no staying together with incomplete lobola. You were married when someone paid lobola for you and the man could not turn around and claim he only paid lobola, so he is single. Black people can be very opportunistic in their use of culture. And we need to be careful of the consequences.

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skhokho21

BaleliM
This is not going to work. They have dismally failed to effectively implement child support and they think they can force these good for nothing men that are abandoning their kids and responsibility?
Get an example of how the USA works on paying maintenance. You aint getting paid by anyone before they deduct maintenance!
....................................................................................................................................................

They did n`t fail, its your sisters that are corrupt & stupid, hence the gov is cancelling all grants people must re-apply. No working man refuses to support his offspring, the problem is you/mothers of these kids, you want a man to support you & your family by asking rediculers ammounts for maintenance.
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Lehido

It sounds like its targeting men only....

What about absent moms?
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JajazQueen

@tpaz
JajazQueen...men don't disappear....we chase them away....sometimes we cheat for money to feed the kids after our wrong choices.
_________________________

Depends my sister, sometimes we do chase them away. Often times the men are on their own agendas and do not want permanency in the relationship. I remember growing up. Men stuck like glue especially if you gave them a taste of the coconut. But these days they run like h.e.l.l...women need to ensure they do not conceive prematurely thats all.

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MommaC

BaleliM

Its not just in the African communities. Its a world wide issue. The BS we feed our kids with and the 'happily ever after' stories are mostly to blame. Women are programmed by society to believe that they need a man to be happy. We don't. In fact, if we are not happy and whole within ourselves, we can never be happy in a partnership.
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JajazQueen

skhokho21
BaleliM
This is not going to work. They have dismally failed to effectively implement child support and they think they can force these good for nothing men that are abandoning their kids and responsibility?
Get an example of how the USA works on paying maintenance. You aint getting paid by anyone before they deduct maintenance!
....................................................................................................................................................

They did n`t fail, its your sisters that are corrupt & stupid, hence the gov is cancelling all grants people must re-apply. No working man refuses to support his offspring, the problem is you/mothers of these kids, you want a man to support you & your family by asking rediculers ammounts for maintenance.
_______________________________

What is a non ridiculous amount for maintenance? My ex couldnt even pay R50.00 for 23 years. Both my boys are over 18 now?

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JajazQueen

@MommaC
BaleliM

Its not just in the African communities. Its a world wide issue. The BS we feed our kids with and the 'happily ever after' stories are mostly to blame. Women are programmed by society to believe that they need a man to be happy. We don't. In fact, if we are not happy and whole within ourselves, we can never be happy in a partnership.
_________________________

100% true. But "happily ever after" is the only way marriage can be sold. We need to have some form of marriage structure. Our society is not matured enough to raise kids out of a "family" set up.

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MommaC

JajazQueen

The problem is that it is a crock of sh!t. It creates false expectations. Marriage is damn hard work. All your problems don't go away when you get married. He doesn't suddenly morph into Prince Charming and you don't instantly become Martha Stewart. He still picks his toenails and you still detest ironing - only now it becomes an issue.
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Danielrjvv1

Interesting article. I am aware the problem, but did not know it go's to such extents. It would be interesting to see how government will tackle something like this. I think it all again starts with eduction. Empowering the women to let them know there are more then just incubators. Keep the knees together girls and there will be no such problems. I sometimes do not think that people understand the concept of marriage as set forth in the western methodology, but still so many are having "White Weddings" . Please enlighten me more as I do not know as much as I would like on this.
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skhokho21

JJQ, my ex girlfriend wanted R5000 from me, when the court asked her to break it down, she could n`t even get to R1000 that I was giving her & the child was on my medical aid. She was crying when she left the court becoz she was also told to pay half & she was told not to waste the court`s time again.
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Mogwapatholo

This policy will be practically impossible, You can'tt really force some be responsible. any way some kids are better of without this pathetic father.

"She said the promotion of family life, through father-sensitive policies like statutory paternal leave and flexible working hours, among other interventions, would make society catalysts of national development."
***********************************************************
The time given for partenal leave in the statement above will probably be spent with another girlfried or drinking booze. For a child women a natural care givers and it cannot be raplace with monsters called Men.
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mambaaai

this is hailed.... in terms of gender equality, from the article "The paper advocates for family life in the form of marriage, strengthening foster care, gender equality and gender sensitive policies for men and women, even in the workplace". The situation exists where woman fall pregnant, get given custody because they are woman, enjoy the short childhood with the children but sue the man for maintenance... they even stop the fathers from seeing the children

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mambaaai

@tpaz
@JajazQueen...men don't disappear....we chase them away....sometimes we cheat for money to feed the kids after our wrong choices.

-----------------------------------------------------

Thats a realistic view point, woman have this "blue print" idea of men and what they are supposed to do, but they are just people , they dont want conflict, between the "blue print" and life so they often just hide, hide at work, hide in a shabeen, hide in another country, just avoid conflict..... so woman have the abiltity or learn the ability to be attractive enough physically and emotionally (woman can be very unattractive when they give into THEIR insecurities and fears) for him to remain intersted... to be there

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Blackstone.lebs

THE government wants to implement a policy that will force fathers to play a more prominent role in the upbringing of their children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It's a good initiative for dealing with fathers that choose to neglect their kids. The policy should also force mothers to allow fathers to play their roles unconditionally. Some men are deliberately hampered from building relationships with their children.
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rasefatee

Giving women and children more rights destroyed many many families such that we don’t know who is the head of the family men can not correct their children and they do as they wish in the name of rights girls as young as 14 sleeps out fall pregnant throwing foetuses everywhere as if a human being has got no meaning we are just a lost generation with moral decay
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mambaaai

@MommaC
JajazQueen

The problem is that it is a crock of sh!t. It creates false expectations. Marriage is damn hard work. All your problems don't go away when you get married. He doesn't suddenly morph into Prince Charming and you don't instantly become Martha Stewart. He still picks his toenails and you still detest ironing - only now it becomes an issue.
------------------------------------------------------------

you are correct it takes two imperfect people (because everyone is imperfect in anothers eyes) to work hard to make a perfect Marriage. perhaps its like tending a garden, weeds are always growing, and with time and l0ving care the garden can be beautiful for both to enjoy
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imbabazane

MommaC
How about simply encouraging women to keep their legs together and not go for the speerm donor option?

Throughout nature, the females chose the BEST male to breed with. Whats with humans that think that some ny0pe addict is suddenly going to become a model father?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aha! Bingo! Now that for me is "Comment of the DAY".


We can blame Men all we want, at the end of the DAY, Mothers get to decide who and when we become parents. Since Women have more reproductive rights (Yes, because it is their bodies) , it is only fair that they carry the lions share of both the blame and burden.
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Idohl

AS LONG AS THE GOVT HAS DETHRONED THE MAN AS THE HEAD OF THE FAMILY, THE PROBLEM WILL FOREVER PREVAIL. THE WOMAN IS NOW FAVOURED IN ALL SPHERES SUCH THAT A MAN FEELS POWERLESS AND CONFUSED. THE WOMAN, WITH HER FAT SALARY, HAS BECOME BIG HEADED AND NO LONGER FEELS LIKE OBEYING THE MAN. THE ROLES ARE REVERSED, NOW THE GOVT WANT TO COME WITH MORE USELESS LEGISLATION TO CONFUSE THE SITUATION FURTHER. THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE, PUT THE MAN BACK IN HIS NATURAL PLACE AND WALLAH, EVERYTHING WILL GO BACK TO NORMAL.
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Shwee

The problm ke gore re a khutelana. U dont know what is in the mind of the other person when u start a relationshp. This guy in his mind is aiming just to sleep (taste) with u and go. But will he ever tell u in the first place? If u walk around dressed very sexy u will attract men who will want to taste u.
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mambaaai

@Blackstone.lebs

The policy should also force mothers to allow fathers to play their roles unconditionally. Some men are deliberately hampered from building relationships with their children.

---------------------------
100% agreed lets hope this adresses this situation regarding the mothers that do this..... it creates massive problems for the children and it also causes children to grow up with all sorts of twisted views about stuff, and themselves which is not good for society at large
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TheDictator

skhokho21
paying lobola is not marriage, its only an engagement/intention to get married or asking the parents of your future w i f e for a permission to marry her. Once you pay over 50% of the required lobola, then her father will give you a go ahead to get married but you still liable for the outstanding debt. Once you sign that marriage certificate & pronounced husband & w i f e, only then you can say you married in the eyes of the RSA law.
......................................................................................................................
You got it twisted comrade.Lobola itself is considered marriage according to RSA law and my culture.In my culture there is no such a thing as engagement.Marriage gets authentic when both parents agree on lobola terms,even if the amount is not complete.In my culture there is no such a thing called 'White' wedding.On the other hand,there's no need to sign any marital papers.
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1stepAtyme

Great initiative Minister.... I encourage the same reseach be done on women who use children for their own selfish motives. Findings can help solve the problem from the root cause.

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maditaba

No goverment can enforce responsible parenthood. Rather community structures have a better chance at doing that. But this goverment has all but disempowered the communities with the pormises to take care of everything
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mambaaai

@ maditaba responsability = the ABILITY to RESPOND
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Di-Anne

Men always fool women promising us heaven and earth, after a senya figure they leave u with a child, they do not care what happens to both you and the child, they carry on with the same story to other women untill he make up to 20 kids with different women, ganti banna bona what wrong with le go rata go kota!!!

Yes it's time they take responsibility
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Papage

@Di-Anne, Is simple, stop being fooled by men you fools
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JB$

Who's going to monitor it? social grants are being misused most of them don't even serve the job it was intended to they play cards & alcohol the kids are forever hungry when you greet the child he doesn't say HELLO he says DIJO
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maditaba

@TheDictaror. I completely agree. Goverment has destroyed our communities
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maditaba

@skhokho21. Lobola is marriage. And you do not need to have the whole amount at once, just an agreement between the families.
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JB$

Let the minister start by telling our president to keep his zip closed
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Blackthought

A bit ambitious if you ask me....This should be a given. All men should be doing this in the first place.
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Blackstone.lebs

@Di-Anne
Men always fool women promising us heaven and earth, after a senya figure they leave u with a child, ....ganti banna bona what wrong with le go rata go kota!!!

Yes it's time they take responsibility
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It goes both ways, some guys will promise heaven and earth just to see your panties off; then you get women ba fa sutlhe kuku just because he promised her this and that...banna ba rata go kota basadi ba ba ratang go kotiwa
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potjiekos

Tsek to whoever came up with this SH!T....some of us are doing good out there, but these woman want more and more all the time.They live expensive lives at our expense, raise high hopes for kids and even brainwash them such that you are called by names by your own kids....The only reason for this is mainly because you have left her for another woman.....because of her shenanigans offcourse. Nxaa!
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zaco'z

start with zuma....
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skhokho21

TheDictator, which c u l t u r e are you talking about? Maditaba, RSA l a w does not recognise lobola as marriage. What you do in a r u r a l v i l l a g e & what happens in c o u r t are m i l e s a p a r t.

Remember the s t o r y of the MTN exec who was d u m p i n g his f i a n c e after paying lobola & giving her an e n g a g e m e n t ring, she went to c o u r t to d i v o r c e him & c l a i m half his
e s t a t e becoz she said they were married, the c o u r t asked her for marriage c e r t i f i c a t e, she only p r o d u c e d an e n g a g e m e n t ring & a v i d e o f o o t a g e that was taken when they went to pay lobola, the c a s e was d i s m i s s e d with c o s t s, r u l i n g in f a v o u r of the guy & said there was no marriage but an i n t e n t i o n to get married. She could only s u e him for
b r e a c h of a p r o m i s e.
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TheDictator

@skhokho21
TheDictator, which c u l t u r e are you talking about? Maditaba, RSA l a w does not recognise lobola as marriage. What you do in a r u r a l v i l l a g e & what happens in c o u r t are m i l e s a p a r t.
................................................
Well..my understanding is different.I have other cases of the same nature that yielded different results.According to my understanding lobola is a legally recognised marriage.In the past man used to pay lobola and stay with the woman for years without signing,and later the man will break-up with the woman and kick her out of the house empty-handed.Based on that there was a need to acknowledge lobola as a legal marriage.

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CAKE

Most of Banna ba batho ba bantsho ba useless when coming to caring ka bana. Instead of feeding them - they will r@pe them....i don't support this!
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MommaC

imbabazane

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the males have ZERO responsibility in this. It does take two to tango. Women simply have more to lose once the tango is danced so they need to make damn sure that if they want to play big kid games that they take big kid precautions or be prepared to take the consequences.
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skhokho21

TheDictator
@skhokho21
TheDictator, which c u l t u r e are you talking about? Maditaba, RSA l a w does not recognise lobola as marriage. What you do in a r u r a l v i l l a g e & what happens in c o u r t are m i l e s a p a r t.
................................................
Well..my understanding is different.I have other cases of the same nature that yielded different results.According to my understanding lobola is a legally recognised marriage.In the past man used to pay lobola and stay with the woman for years without signing,and later the man will break-up with the woman and kick her out of the house empty-handed.Based on that there was a need to acknowledge lobola as a legal marriage.
....................................................................................................................................................
That is why you have to register customary marriages otherwise the l a w sees it as a vat n sit, hence the man can kick her out becoz she does not have any rights.
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Dzel

Now we want to legislate family life?

WTF!

Shouldn't government be concentrating on eradicating corruption and poverty instead?

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TKay

I dont see this policy working...
- How are they going to implement these,
- how many men do we have out there who have been taken to court for child maintenance but they are not paying,
- how many condoms are in public facilities but people are not using them,
- how many clinics are open for fr.ee contraceptives and women are not taking them,
- how many people are behind bars for ra.pe but people are still rap!ng. Do you think a paper will make people own up and take responsibility? Go back to the drawing board and come back with something else
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Dzel

The paper advocates for family life in the form of marriage, strengthening foster care, gender equality and gender sensitive policies for men and women, even in the workplace.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So are you going to force men who have kids to marry the mothers?

Today is not April Fools day is it?

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Dzel

The paper advocates for family life in the form of marriage, strengthening foster care, gender equality and gender sensitive policies for men and women, even in the workplace.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So are you going to force men who have kids to marry the mothers?

Today is not April Fo.ols day is it?

Report Abuse

Dzel

JJQ,
There should be incentives for marriage as well. These kids need to get married instead of this vat n sit sh!t. And this double standard on lobola should be investigated.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The divorce rate is so high because many people view marriage as a “voyager mile”, we’ve been dating for x number of years and therefore should marry. Either that or because of pressure by friends and family, “you have two kids therefore should get married” so people end up at the altar to satisfy others or to prove to their partners that they are committed.

The problem is marriage is hard, you are in each other’s face all the time and if the bond that holds you together is weak you are bound to end up in a messy divorce. What this will achieve is you will have people marrying for financial benefit or because there is a law that says they should marry. This has to be one of the du.mbest proposals ever; someone in government wants to be seen as doing their job so they came up with this...

People who should marry are those who are in it to stay no matter what, the only thing we will achieve by this is increase the number of divorces.

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Dzel

TheDictator

You got it twisted comrade.Lobola itself is considered marriage according to RSA law and my culture.In my culture there is no such a thing as engagement.Marriage gets authentic when both parents agree on lobola terms,even if the amount is not complete
=======================================================

I am with you on this one my brother, once you've paid lobola then you are married. Full stop.

Report Abuse

BaleliM

skhokho21
BaleliM
This is not going to work. They have dismally failed to effectively implement child support and they think they can force these good for nothing men that are abandoning their kids and responsibility?
Get an example of how the USA works on paying maintenance. You aint getting paid by anyone before they deduct maintenance!
....................................................................................................................................................

They did n`t fail, its your sisters that are corrupt & stupid, hence the gov is cancelling all grants people must re-apply. No working man refuses to support his offspring, the problem is you/mothers of these kids, you want a man to support you & your family by asking rediculers ammounts for maintenance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am a mother to 8 and 6 yr old gals and seperated from husband after 10 yrs due to various reasons. We have been apart for 3 yrs and in the last 3 yrs, he has done absolutely nothing in terms of supporting the kids from a simple loaf of bread to paying school fees.
i have not been to court to "demand" ridiculous amount as i am trying to be mature about this. I have asked that he pays the school fees directly and realised that nothing was paid last year when the billing came from school.
So please, dont tell me about women wanting more money out of men when the men take their issues with their ex as a means to punish innocent kids.
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choice

It’s funny how many fathers out there that want to be with there for their kid/s are dealt the reality of how our system is justice for some, when many of the women know that the system protects them foremost, while we still run in the concept of equality in front of the law, now, the same father that wants to be there, can be given a court order to be with his kids cause now the mother wants it cause he moved on, not from the child but her? I feel like society is breeding a time bomb of gender imbalance. Government can be finding feeding schemes for kids, fighting the crime from inside the jails, and finding long lasting solutions not researched based on one sided views, gez if I asked the right people they will say we should still have apartheid. Anyhow just my thought. Has anyone tried to use our law system to get at the least child visitation rights, it’s a task that I will not wish on my worst enemy. The person can only help u on a Monday any other days he looks at you and says come on Monday? If u do not have the financial backing you will not win nor even see the light of days. Oh before he helps you, he shows you a bunch of other apps and says his not sure when you will even get a response. The people at the top should see the product of their laws, action and choices. Choice is at the end self responsibility. I have got the guy on phone vid, while someone is waiting to be helped. He was playing games on the pc and speaking on his phone. So these new laws are just going to frustrate most and help some?
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imbabazane

MommaC
imbabazane

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the males have ZERO responsibility in this. It does take two to tango. MommaC
imbabazane

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the males have ZERO responsibility in this. It does take two to tango. Women simply have more to lose once the tango is danced so they need to make damn sure that if they want to play big kid games that they take big kid precautions or be prepared to take the consequences.

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Well, I feel that given the consequences, which you yourself outline: " [ Women simply have more to lose once the tango is danced]" ....it then follows that, "takes two to tango" is misleading to women, its a misleading analogy....
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BaleliM

It is amazing just how many men say that they want to be with their kids and the mothers of their kids say no. WTF?
How many men run away from their responsibility? Go to children's court and see how many women/mothers are their in comparison to men fighting to see their kids.
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skhokho21

Dzel & TheDictator google the word LOBOLA, 2 sources from google.

Lobola is a century-old tradition, still common throughout Africa. This system requires that a price be paid for the right to marry a women. This practice is still used extensively in contemporary African society and has raised both critical and supportive voices.
...................................................................................................................................................
Lobola negotiations can be tricky – we speak to an expert to get advice on how to handle it.

The lobola process is when a man or his family pays a certain amount to the bride’s family in order to obtain the right to marry their daughter.
We chat to Lebogo Mpho, founder of the Lobola/Magadi Institute, about lobola negotiations.


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mambaaai

@JJQ,
There should be incentives for marriage as well.
---------------------------------------

for once I agree with you , I would say an incentive to stay married, and not some kind of story that can be abused like.... get marrried get a grant from the rest of the community then just live apart or some game like that... an incentive for the couple who are together with children. theis would have a stabilising effect on society in general, and mostly add to raising well adjusted children
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BlackLion

Love is the answer to all problems on the Earth Farm. How do you expect a cold family to raise good citizens and be sustainable?

Follow the tradition of righteousness from a true Rasta man and your face will only overflow tears of joy, not those of agony.

The blessed communion between the King and his Empress is private and no government law can regulate.

A happy Empress always keeps the house warm and tender; that is tradition which no man will ever change.

This Earth Farm community still has a lot to learn I see

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Bumboklaat

Ba thome ka Zaco le Bizasbono le Mbondozi le Click!

Mara seriously. majita ebang le maikarabelo tu assomblief! tlogelang go tsamaya le ny0ka ntho enngwe le enngwe e enang le mab0ya lere le pruva b0nna ba lena. m0nna wa nnete o ira sho gore ngwana wagae a sh0te selo and o kreya lerato le le felletseng. O kereya selo se lekelleditse makatla mo sere sona ke m0nna ka marao ao fela mara se sa itsi g0re ngwana wa ja or wa apara! SIES MAN!
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Bumboklaat

@skhokho21
Dzel & TheDictator google the word LOBOLA, 2 sources from google.

Lobola is a century-old tradition, still common throughout Africa. This system requires that a price be paid for the right to marry a women. This practice is still used extensively in contemporary African society and has raised both critical and supportive voices.
...................................................................................................................................................
Lobola negotiations can be tricky – we speak to an expert to get advice on how to handle it.

The lobola process is when a man or his family pays a certain amount to the bride’s family in order to obtain the right to marry their daughter.
We chat to Lebogo Mpho, founder of the Lobola/Magadi Institute, about lobola negotiations
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is that the real meaning of lobola?
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MommaC

imbabazane

Unless you believe that babies are caused by wind pollination or immaculate conception, then it does take two to tango. Men must also teach their sons to be careful of where they spread their seeds. Just as women should be teaching their daughters that they should stop being tarts.
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choice

@mommac parents should teach not just sides teaching! otherwise we should not nsay its takes a community to raise a child, but its takes a coumminty of female to raise a female and males to rasie a male! " the term parents last time i checked did not mean in a realtionship!
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mthosam

A good thing, why now taking it for public comment. if all other suggestions are given public debate or comments, then Zuma' s admin will be better and les arrogant.
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MommaC

choice

??? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying there.
Very seldom do mothers (or mother figures) speak about sex education to young men and its unusual for a father (or father figure) to speak about sexual responsibility to a female child.
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Tabza325is

@CAKE
Most of Banna ba batho ba bantsho ba useless when coming to caring ka bana. Instead of feeding them - they will r@pe them....i don't support this!

Does this also apply to your Father?....
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imbabazane

MommaC
imbabazane

Unless you believe that babies are caused by wind pollination or immaculate conception, then it does take two to tango. Men must also teach their sons to be careful of where they spread their seeds. Just as women should be teaching their daughters that they should stop being tarts.

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I tend to look at this based on Consequences, so the one who carries most of the burden "afterwards" is the one who should be more careful, simple logic tells me that.

So? Women need to be more careful than boys, unfair? of course! but so is the fact that she can make me a father even when I do not want to...but I can't force her to be a mother, because "its her body". Life is not fair, forcing it to be fair in this contexts is like trying to Square a cirlce. Thats all I am saying Momma.
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Mbelewolwazi

At last somebody woke up to the fact that a family is a cornerstone of any society. Families are manufacturers of individuals who form families, communities and society. If you strengthen families, there is hope that the communities will be strong and the whole society will be standing on good values. This is a good vision as long as the implementation part will be done earnestly. We are where we are because the White people's strategy of industrialization destroyed our family structure and made us imikhovu nezimuka nandwendwe lezi esesaba yizo. Big up Bathabile.
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MommaC

imbabazane

I think that is the crux of the problem. Children of today have no clue about the law of consequence.

In our day, if you got into trouble at school, you didn't dare tell your parents or you'd get another thrashing at home. These days, the parents are more likely to turn their ire on the school. The kids can do as they like without having to face the consequences of their behaviour.

You are right, women have got more invested in this so it is up to them to take more precaution against it. I don't, however, go with the idea that boys should be held to a lower moral standard or even that they should be absolved of all responsibility for their actions
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imbabazane

@ Momma

Absolved? - No, Held to a lower standard? - effectively and practically, yes.
But I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that one.
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TAFreshe

@ Dzel and The Dictator

Paying iLobolo does not mean you are married. iLobolo is just a formality to a marriage. In terms of The Recognition of Customary Marriages Act and common law, there must be a ceremony to celebrate the union. In my culture we call the ceremony uTsiki and the bride is welcome. It is not compulsory for the marriage to be registered to be recognised as long witnesses can attest to the marriage and were part of the ceremony.
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mambaaai

@TAFreshe the collision of cultures, and understandings and significance of components of ceremonies as to the change in status from single to having a responsibility
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Dzel

TAFreshe
@ Dzel and The Dictator

Paying iLobolo does not mean you are married. iLobolo is just a formality to a marriage. In terms of The Recognition of Customary Marriages Act and common law, there must be a ceremony to celebrate the union. In my culture we call the ceremony uTsiki and the bride is welcome. It is not compulsory for the marriage to be registered to be recognised as long witnesses can attest to the marriage and were part of the ceremony.
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Makes sense, my family had to perform traditional cer.emony to for.mally introduce her to my ance.stors and welcome my w.ife into my family. I'm with you all the way.

But surely the act of pa.ying lobola must have some legal significance like su.ing for a broken promise or whatever it is they call it.

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TheDictator

TAFreshe
@ Dzel and The Dictator

Paying iLobolo does not mean you are married. iLobolo is just a formality to a marriage. In terms of The Recognition of Customary Marriages Act and common law, there must be a ceremony to celebrate the union. In my culture we call the ceremony uTsiki and the bride is welcome. It is not compulsory for the marriage to be registered to be recognised as long witnesses can attest to the marriage and were part of the ceremony.
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Well.We have different cultures then.Lets agree to disagree.Maybe there is iLobolo and 'magadi'.
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TAFreshe

@ Mambaai

I get your point, cultures differ and our laws should have recognised that. All I am trying to do is just to explain the legal position which strickly says lobolo is not sufficient, there must be a ceremony or celebration of the cultural union. Skhokho made a good example of the case of the former CEO of State Theatre and the Head of MTN which confirmed this position.
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Dzel

mambaaai

...the collision of cultures, and understandings and significance of components of ceremonies as to the change in status from single to having a responsibility
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Yes but the problem is one of understanding, we have been poor in passing on our traditions with many blinded by religion and thinking traditions are regressive practices. Our government is doing a poor job in ensure culture and heritage is preserved.

If I were in the Dept of Arts and Culture I would priorities the development of indigenous languages, the documentation and preservation of African Culture but it appears this is a department of culture only in name. Exhibiting art in foreign galleries / shows and holding festivals is more important. Try googling any on African culture even something as commonly practiced as lobola and you hardly anything online.

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TAFreshe

4sure Dzel, you can sue for breach of promise if the marriage does not take place due to whatever breaches that are caused by intended spouse or her family. Lobolo is an expenditure which you incur in the process of getting married and to me it does not matter whether it is called a gratitudinal gift, it should be paid back in those circumstances.
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mambaaai

maybe a little document (because modern times) signed at some point before labola or anything make the differnecein front of the courts and all the other stuff....on the beach in a church .... consumation , presents , bulls children......absolutely any variation......happens after that
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Dzel

Bumboklaat

is that the real meaning of lobola?
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That is a difficult question to answer because of how li.fe has ch.anged and how the m.eaning has evolved to different people. What I can say is it is incorrect to view lobola in isolation; it is the first step in a number of cer.emonies leading up to the marriage itself.

In my ca.se the sequence was.
1. Negotiating and agreement on the amount to be pa.id,
2. Going to the bride’s family home to formally ask her for her hand in marriage,
3. Bride’s family receiving gifts from the groom’s family,
4. The family then formally delivers the bride to the groom’s home stead,
5. The bride is formally welcome to her new family, at this point she ceases to belong to her family and joins the groom’s family,
6. Celebration of the marriage by all parties and receiving of gifts from the b.ride's family

Lobolo made more sen.se when it co.ws were exchanged because co.ws are a source of food and we.alth. Each co.w had signif.icance like there would be one for the father, one for the father, etc so each one was exchanged for a specific purpose. The way I understand it is because the bride family is forgoing a child this was a form of compensation and to ensure there is a continual source of food for the family.

You will note the number of times gifts are exchanged, the objective was to cultivate a relationship between the two families based on mutual support but it has more to do with the movement of the bride between the two families. This is my interpretation of events, you will need an expect to break this down for you.

What is not true though is that lobola is some form of financial transaction or that the w.ife is being so;ld or bought. Abuse of the tradition has crept in and people start attaching a value to a human being which is abs.urd and unfort.unately is used as justification for abu.se. I did not b.uy my wif.e; I built a relationship w.ife her family. A relationship that is enduring.

Correct me if my interpretation is wr.ong guys.

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Dzel

TAFreshe

Lobolo is an expenditure which you incur in the process of getting married and to me it does not matter whether it is called a gratitudinal gift, it should be paid back in those circumstances.
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It would be difficult to argue this if it is the guy who is reneging but I suppose a guy can demand his money back provided akanamahloni to do that. I'd be a case of a man scorned, highly embarrassing.

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Schumi

JajazQueen:
I'm sorry but would like to disagree with the point that the black family structure needs help. The black family structure worked very well until policies that sought to undermine it and present it as an ancient, backwards and abusive structure were developed, implemented and brain washed Africans into beleiving that the western family structure is the ideal 1, well ever since we embraced western values, the moral decay of our societies happens at a very fast and alarming rate. Unfortunately most black men choose to ignore their responsibilities. As a man firmly believes in African values, I what m,y responsibilities are and will be very embarassed if a peice of legislation were to force me to take responsibility for my actions. If we were to really embrace the values of ubuntu, these interventions would not be necessary!!!
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skhokho21

Dzel, 1&2 is the same thing, I see this is a traditional wedding becoz between 3&4 there is a white wedding, only then is the bride going to emzini ayotya utsiki. She does not cease to belong to her family but the 2 families become one. This is basically the same for all cultures.

Where are b l a c k writers, surely we cannot wait for the dept of culture to write about our culture wereas we have writers.

Dzel only a man who has taken this path can explain it, uyindoda yoqobo, unlike these boys & girls bashaya ama vat n sit kwezi flats in suburbs.
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Bumboklaat

Dzel
Bumboklaat

is that the real meaning of lobola?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That is a difficult question to answer because of how li.fe has ch.anged and how the m.eaning has evolved to different people. What I can say is it is incorrect to view lobola in isolation; it is the first step in a number of cer.emonies leading up to the marriage itself.

In my ca.se the sequence was.
1. Negotiating and agreement on the amount to be pa.id,
2. Going to the bride’s family home to formally ask her for her hand in marriage,
3. Bride’s family receiving gifts from the groom’s family,
4. The family then formally delivers the bride to the groom’s home stead,
5. The bride is formally welcome to her new family, at this point she ceases to belong to her family and joins the groom’s family,
6. Celebration of the marriage by all parties and receiving of gifts from the b.ride's family

Lobolo made more sen.se when it co.ws were exchanged because co.ws are a source of food and we.alth. Each co.w had signif.icance like there would be one for the father, one for the father, etc so each one was exchanged for a specific purpose. The way I understand it is because the bride family is forgoing a child this was a form of compensation and to ensure there is a continual source of food for the family.

You will note the number of times gifts are exchanged, the objective was to cultivate a relationship between the two families based on mutual support but it has more to do with the movement of the bride between the two families. This is my interpretation of events, you will need an expect to break this down for you.

What is not true though is that lobola is some form of financial transaction or that the w.ife is being so;ld or bought. Abuse of the tradition has crept in and people start attaching a value to a human being which is abs.urd and unfort.unately is used as justification for abu.se. I did not b.uy my wif.e; I built a relationship w.ife her family. A relationship that is enduring.

Correct me if my interpretation is wr.ong guys.
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Y0u are right, a l0t has changed 0ver the years and has distorted the trad!tion of ilob0lo. it differs from cu.lture to cul.ture but what I know is that there are many similarities irrespective of cu.lture. My understanding of ilob0lo is to create a b0nd between the families and yes also to sh0w appreciation to the br!de's family for their da.ughter but our pe0ple have turned it into a financial transaction because they will l00k at their own we.alth and also say that their daughter is educated and blah...blah....blah....! But the b0ttom line is that you can never put a pr!ce on l0bola and the less you p.ay d0es not mean y0u d0n't value y0ur w!fe to be nor her family!

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Dzel

Skhokho,

By 2 I meant the night before the ceremonies start officially, the singing and dancing hence I separated 1 & 2.

i also had a ceremony between 3 & 4 but it was a traditional one rather than a western one. I am always amused by people who hold western culture over ours, many don't even understand the meaning of a white dress which is supposed to symbolize purity or virginity to be specific.

Yes we have black writers but this is a question of national heritage hence needs to be directed and coordinated by the state. the problem with one writer is the material is going to be subject to availability of resources and interpretation among others.

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Dzel

Bumboklaat,

... but our pe0ple have turned it into a financial transaction because they will l00k at their own we.alth and also say that their daughter is educated and blah...blah....blah....! But the b0ttom line is that you can never put a pr!ce on l0bola and the less you p.ay d0es not mean y0u d0n't value y0ur w!fe to be nor her family!
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Often the people abamosha indaba are the uncles who in many cases did not part-take in the upbringing of the child and are seeing an opportunity to make a quick buck.

It saddens me when I see culture being abused for financial gain and to perpetuate and chauvinistic behaviour.

it is advisable for the couple itself to agree on what is affordable and reasonable then the family can formalise negotiations. The last thing you want is for the relationship to breakdown because of unreasonable parental involvement.

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Osirus

Very very good initiative.
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SteppingRazor

Gender equality? Somebody please explain to me what that is.
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Mosadii

Papage
We also need to have a policy to stop women from opening their legs to all men, there are women with five kids from different fathers, what is wrong with them
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And there are men with a lot of kids from different mothers?I dont care how it is done, ad long as we stop these hit and run men.
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