If angloamerican think its acceptable to pay 2mil as a settlement to the community which was displaced then I can understand where those calling for nationalisation of mines come from, it seem these ppl like anglo have learnt no lessons frm mistakes committed in Zim by pulling a fast one on the ppl exploiting their being naive, anyway Anglo has more k@k coming on its way, the ppl in Congo apparently got tired of waiting for the gov to force anglo to do the right thing, they've simply taken over the mining apparently some of the rebel groups are so organised they have machines and sk!lled ppl to operate them, anglo is standing breathless and contemplating what to do, in SA we are meek we get screwed and we say thank you b@@s. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
..... and people voted this guy in? Doesn't say much for the intellectual capacity of Limpopo Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
I clarified that at the time. Previous reports said that the 2million was for restitution and Anglo will be paying rent to them every month as well as building facilities and incorporating the surrounding communities (including the claimants) into their work programmes Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
Yes I saw that, but both you and I know that's peanuts, so this is another issue we disagree on, Anglo exploited our ppl and that strengths the calls for nationalisation or somaar grab a mine like its done in Congo, cause if our ppl are not benefiting from our minerals no outsiders shld should, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
You also explained MC abt land reform (against) it, and claiming there is not enough land, if there is not enough land, then the gov must make it happen, slice up private mines and 51% be given to the marginalised farm labourers, they are also entitled to benefit to the spoils, the gov for 18yrs+ has been trying to p@ssyfooty around burning issues, and as a result they have lost 18yrs do we really expect the ppl waiting for this issue to be address to wait for ever for justice to finally be effected, its insensitive MC, the sml percentage of the rich can not hold rest of the ppl to ransom using our national resources. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
1tsotsi
MommaC
..... and people voted this guy in? Doesn't say much for the intellectual capacity of Limpopo
=============
But isnt what his saying true? I wonder why people can be so blind to see the facts, is it coz of your dislike of the man that even when he tells the truth your rubbish it? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Catswhiskers
Yes, that's why Zim.babwe is investigat.ing how their people are being tre.ated by the Ch!nese! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
1tsotsi
sowetan this is an old article, why always recycle news? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
Ther's no move would chase investors away here lona man.
So then katakata have you lost that much faith in yourself as an African child that you believe that allowing these ppl to exploit our resources is the only way to keep them here? you know the gov who really have national pride in tact liek the ones in Indonesia (Bali) the locals own 51% stake on all national resources such as land, in Africa we bend over and get screwed till there are rebels to save the day, why does it always have to be like that, why can't we just get leaders to negotiate in our best interests for a change?
when you say the investors will be chased away if there is nationalisation since they fail to use 18yrs window opportunity to empower (economically) communities from which the land they are mining was forcefully taken from? come on grow a pair will you and fight for this country and fight for justice and fair distribution of resources. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
So the best thing for the people of SA is to have tiny pieces of a half baked pie instead of being given the recipe to make their own pie? You don't have a very high opinion of our people, do you.
China was holding the apartheid government up. If China hadn't been paying a forex to Iscor in breach of the sanctions, then apartheid would have fallen sooner. The sods still get our steel at lower prices than our own manufacturers can get it locally
Zim isn't exactly a shinning example of investor confidence Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
kgomotosku
Im worried at the Mathale and his cabal in Limpopo are running that province as if its independent of SA. Its as if theres a Limpopo League that talks outside the ANC....This man is hellbent on defying the ANC to please the disposed Malema.
@ MommaC i agreee to disagree.This says much about the intellectual capacity of Mathale but not of Limpopo..if JZ F...UP, this does not mean ZULULANDs intellect has dwindled or does it? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Magwazambawula
The love of money,greedy and lack of respect of the poeple you are leading will destroy you.Mathale must be removed as the Premier of Limpopo unless ANC will lose support in Limpopo.Mathale, what do you mean when you say why investors did not leave when Mugabe implement his economic policies?Poeple of Zim are suffering of hunger,shortage of fuel and the economy of Zim has collapsed since he implemented that policy and every day many Zim poeple are coming to SA looking for better life because of that Mugabe of yours.You do not have the interest of improving the lives of the people at heart but only you.I am not going to vote if you are still leading the ANC Mr Mathale. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@somaartakeit and when we look at the e toll fiasco... South Africa could have built and run such a system creating local jobs keeping the profits here in South Africa... and now the profits being made from our roads which we own, go to Austria.....
If you want a stake in the Anglo mines just get some shares....its available to you. the mine equipment and infrastructure still belongs to Anglo and the mineral rights still belong to the country and the goverment can charge any kind of tax any ammount of tax they want at any time.... but at least the mine is run by proper people not cronies and cadres Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
So the best thing for the people of SA is to have tiny pieces of a half baked pie instead of being given the recipe to make their own pie? You don't have a very high opinion of our people, do you.
--------------------------
the problem now MC its tiny pieces of the politically connected who are benefiting from said pie, I also think its unfair that some of us are watching whilst others are eating, if this pie was divided fairly then I wld have no problem with that,
MC you are a smart woman, please understand that us middle class ppl can not expect to ride on the shoulders of those who are being wronged and expect that our national relations will not be damaged by this, you and I are in a position to call for fair division of this pie (everyone is talking about) I haven't seen evidence of it, I don't know about you, but I say if there is a pie it must be shared fairly amongst us (the ppl). Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@mambaaai
I agree with you that all jobs created and revenue made must first and above all benefit SAns, otherwise this regime will never make good on its promise of a better life for all.
I have not read much on this e-tolling-thievery and who benefits but if profits are xploited by external ppl then I am dead against that, Austria claims to not have colonised anyone, which is true, but if they come to milk Africa then they are not doing anything different to what eg the King of Belgium did in Congo and other colonialists, damn these Europeans is there no way for them to make their nests comfortable without exploiting someone in developing countries? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit,
That cannot work in the real world. Communism is a beautiful concept but logistically impossible.
Remember the story of the ant and the grasshopper? Now what would the motiivation be for the ants to do so much work if they know that the grasshopper (who does nothing all summer) will just get most of what the ant has worked for? Given half an opportunity, none of us would work and none of us would go into debt to study. Therein lies the fatal flaw in the communist ideal. If I can have the same rewards for doing a tenth of the work then it stands to reason that human nature will win out and everyone will opt for doing the least amount possible. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
As for those who argue that if there is nationalisation investors will leave, let them leave, fi their being here depends on the ruthlessly exploiting our ppl, I for one don't want any business partners who think that a relationship should be based on them dictating the rules of the game,
Now SAns I know this is an emotional issue for most of us, but let us move away a bit from our personal scenario and look to Argentina they have nationalised, Spain huffed and puffed, China stepped into the picture as well, so what I am saying, when one exploiter leaves he takes with him losses, not the mine, let us stead fast for a change and kick out exploitative investors, it shouldn't be us who are on our knees it is them who want to do business with us, and they must do that on our terms, that are geared towards ensuring no SAn will be exploited in the process of them extracting those minerals, Nigerians guys are fully incharge of their country's resources, do they look like they are dying to you? we shall survive if these exploiters leave our shores, Report Abuse
@Magwazambawula LoL hey lady let me correct you on the mistake you are making cause you have allowed yourself to be mislead by British alligned media, Zimbos are running away from BRUT of ZANU-PF which has turned Zim into a police state, that has been the case for the past 20yrs +
this ploy that investors wld run away is from the ppl who have a low self esteem and no confidence that they have come be comfortable with being treated as slaves by the xploiters of our national resources. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit,
"That cannot work in the real world" We first must define what the real world means?
" Communism is a beautiful concept but logistically impossible" I am tired of this 'communism' scare tactic, the ppl running those mines had ample time to do right by the ppl they whom they exploit, they have failed and have left us with a last resort (nationalisation).
"Remember the story of the ant and the grasshopper?" there are no ants and grasshoppers in this instance just the ppl who think they are entitled to exploit, when challenged call others grasshoppers and communists, you must bare in mind that, a man who has nothing to lose has no reason to respect the rules which were set out to suppress him. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
This is an interesting moment in the history of the ANC that it is the anc comrades calling for nationalisation and land reform and gettign the nation talking, we are heading for interesting times indeed, those of you who don't know the history of the anc, natioalisation and land reform was the core basis of their struggle for liberation hence the fr33dom charter, the only problem is that instead of the comrades implement this after the take over they were too pre-occupied with looting, but for my part I welcome these debates, cause then if we get the ball rolling no one can hold us to ransom, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@ somaartakeit
regarding Astria and colonising....umm the Austrohungarian empire all over europe... the fact of the matter is that kinda stuff has been happening all over the world since forever... if there is anything the minority brothers did here is put all the tribes under one umbrella SA otherwise and the eastern cape guys would be dying like in ethiopia etc. and without our clever little De beers team for example diamonds would have the same value as tigers eye or something like that..did you know that Tanzinite is more rare than diamond .... and where is its price. the debeers guys created value for us and our land...and had we not chased them away to relocate to the england we would have had the benefit of the profits in SA Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
What you are calling for is pure communism. You then tell me that it is just a scare tactic and that old fables are irrelevant?
The real world has fat Zuma nephews and hungry Sipos in it. It isn't made up of Desmond Tutu clones. Human nature is lazy and full of avarice. THAT is reality. Not the fictional world of fairies and huggy bears you imagine it to be. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MC, look at this from the perspective of a have nothing and desperate, and tell me if htey can if they have communism or socialism etc all that is interesting for them is a vehicle that will lead them to prosperity and there is no reason this regime has failed more than they are incompetent, so what right do we (middle class) to say to the downtroddens, look guys its not in the interests fo the rich and middle class to nationalise if these guys believe that's their only salvation from poverty? The rich and the middle class have deserted the issues of the masses, so why must they be inspired to hold ship SA with you and me on board, whilst there are no benefits for them? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
.... because it is not in their best interests either.
Grubbing in the soil for minerals like a bunch of worms is not going to help anyone. The real money is in the actual products which are manufactured. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Mambaai when it comes to Africa Austrians will vehemently argue that they didn't colonised hence they say, there is no reason for the EU to dictate to them abt affording a refugee for war torn African refugees, this is a hot debate actually as you might be aware that there is grown trend of right wing parties since recession....
Yes all the other issues yuo mentioned abt adding value to our minerals, but for whose benefit? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
1tsotsi
MommaC
1tsotsi
What has he said that is true?
China was holding the apartheid government up. If China hadn't been paying a forex to Iscor in breach of the sanctions, then apartheid would have fallen sooner. The sods still get our steel at lower prices than our own manufacturers can get it locally
Zim isn't exactly a shinning example of investor confidence
=========================================
The questions is why didnt the investors leave South african during the B.rutal apartheid government? Thats the question you should be able to answer, the are the investors and they want our minerals, if they want to leave the door is open other inverstors who are willing to listen to us, the owners of the minerals will come and invest. We cant be hold into ranson by the so-called economics trying to put fear in our peoples minds by saying we will chase the invertsors are, even now with those investors, our people are not benefiting, so its time we change how the economy operates, by nationalising. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
".... because it is not in their best interests either" LoL so you know what's in their best interest lol ooh you're so cute when you say these things.
"Grubbing in the soil for minerals like a bunch of worms is not going to help anyone" No one suggests that, but eventually that is what will happen if these companies mining there fail to facilitate community development social projects, in fact it is ruthless of them to not want to do this, considering all the gains everyone will benefit from.
"The real money is in the actual products which are manufactured" this money benefits who MC? cause this nationalisation wld not even be an issue if resources were shared through community development projects, not throwing around peanuts (2mil) as a settlement to a community which has legitimate claim to the land being mined. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
how has China helped with poverty...they have 200 million new people per year, looking for jobs 5 times our entire population... simple they dont have minimum wages which have effectivey blocked a whole lot of people from getting A job and minimum wages causes the little companies to be able to only employ a certain number of people ....along with l@bour laws, has contibuted to an environment for labour brokers to grow...we have fr33dom so, if we are unhappy with a job...we are fr33 to move... Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
1tsotsi
"Zim isn't exactly a shinning example of investor confidence ..." for some Eurpean countries but China are investing in Zim, I am not saying they are the best of investors they cld attract but my argument is that, what is poison for you is a medicine for the other person, besides MC Europe now has not options left (due to this fin crisis engulfing Eurozone) cause their wea lth has amassed so far has been derived from exploiting poor nations, did you know that England has fallen once again into recession? and Spain has even more problems some SPanish youth said they want to migrate to other countries to seek job opportunities, go figure MC the West is not what it once was.... Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
1tsotsi
A lot of investors did leave during sanctions. That is why the greatest number of mineral licences have been granted since the end of apartheid.
Keep very firmly in mind that most of the large mining houses are public entities. Our very own PIC holds vast shares in Anglo American as does a lot of our other local investment houses. Nationalise the mine and you effectively steal the pensions of the average worker.
It is about a lot more than just nationalising a mine. It is about security. We already heard the YL in Cape Town shouting to 'nationalise' the wine industry. What will be next? All pizza parlours will have their cheese nationalised? Once one thing is stolen, the security of all things becomes suspect. No investor will bring their money into a country which cannot ensure that it will not be 'nationalised', Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Mambaai China is confirmed as the new super power and its economy grew by 7% the last time I checked, even rich countries have its poor Chi na is no different to eg the USA's bronx dwellers and the UK/Fra nce/Bel gium slums
and that China is the new super power means that all its interests overseas incl Africa/Eu rope will employ mainly Chin ese, did you know that Chi na is the most taught language now in the West? ask yourself why? Euro parents don't want their kids to be left out in the Chi na economic boom, whilst WEs tern economies are under severe strain. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
LoL so you know what's in their best interest lol ooh you're so cute when you say these things
..... Its called basic economics and has been proven by others - not me.
No one suggests that, but eventually that is what will happen if these companies mining there fail to facilitate community development social projects, in fact it is ruthless of them to not want to do this, considering all the gains everyone will benefit from.
...... Do you know what social development projects are being done and do you know that it is part of the mineral rights licence which the Dept is not doing anything to enforce?
this money benefits who MC? cause this nationalisation wld not even be an issue if resources were shared through community development projects, not throwing around peanuts (2mil) as a settlement to a community which has legitimate claim to the land being mined.
,..... At the moment the money is benefiting China, India and other eastern countries the most.
...... The community still owns the land that is being mined - that is why they will be getting rent every month for it along with a whole bunch of community development projects Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
MommaC
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
"..... At the moment the money is benefiting China, India and other eastern countries the most" only due to the fact that our cabinet ministers are bribable that is why I said, its refreshing that nationalisation debate has been started within the anc, cause this is changing politics of this regime as we know it, cause even they must realised that its the politically connected who are benefiting and their friends.. what is to me interesting is that the ppl at grassroots are standing up for themselves FINALLY. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@somaartakeit 10;4 on the superpower stuff....any idea who owns lots maybe most of our vanadim and ferrochrome mines, the products of which required to manufacture stainless steel and steel products?
a hint the same guys who put pressure on the governement to block the Dali lamas visit... who goes around the world speaking about current human rights violations Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MorenaWaPolelo
A mor.on in suit I wonder how he runs his business!!! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
... and who do you think will be the ones to 'eat' if it is nationalised? The grass isn't going to get any and the grass roots are going to get even less. It will all go to newer waBenzis and waBoeings and waBling Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Sinudeity
"Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government controlled Iscor? Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government established Foskor in Phalaborwa?
The apartheid government was boycotted by most of the world.
Why do the calls for nationalisation, always come from the incompetent/corrupt portion of the government? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Mambaai I hear what you are saying but to the grass-roots nationa lisation seem to be a viable option and don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing in favour of being colo nised by China I just wish we didn't have to be re-colo nised that's all.
@MC hence I said had the current owners cared to develop the ppl, the ppl wld know what has to be done, they neglected that respon sibility cause they were engrossed in their own self enrich ment on the bl00od and swe@t of those they exploited, so why shld I care if their loot is now being threa tened? when the ppl at grassroots don't see improvements in their lives they don't see any reason to continue to respect rules of the games, that is all that I am saying, hence calls for nationa lisation.
and believe MC the downtroddens will throw their weight behind those calling for nationalisation and land reform, cause to them its the ones running these resources who are insensitive to their plight its the incompetent and bribable politicians who are selling their issues short. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
That way lies anarchy and civil war. Not something to be wished upon our people. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
For my part MC, rather than seeing what is happening in Aurora I'd rather the mines are nationalised, cause if ppl are afforded responsibility (ownership) they will have something to work towards with pride. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MC please let us be realistic about our situation, we are already in one way or another in some kind of war (conflict) that's why you have the guy waiting at the traffic light to smash and grab from you and me, hence if the economic empowe rment projects were kicked started, a smash and grab situation wld have been minimised or prevented all together,
let us be under no illusion that we (the middle class) haven't contributed to the situation, for allowing this gov to cause so many to be destitute and ignite the need in them to survive. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
SeshegoGuY
Was Mathale Speaking officially or merely expressing an opinion as an individual??? We all know what the Government Stance on the issue is-- Zuma did Clarify it. Why Mathale making public pronouncement when there is a Policy conference on the way Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
But nationalisation won't give the people who work in the mines or who live in the area any ownership. It will give the state ownership. The same state which allowed the Aurora shame to occur in the first place. When Pomozi went belly up, the state were the ones who took over curatorship and handed it over to the political parasites.
The state already owns the mineral rights. The people who own the property have no say or ownership of the minerals below the soil. Effectively, the state 'nationalises' every piece of ground with minerals under it as the owners can do nothing to stop the government from granting mining rights on their property. There are a number of court cases about that at the moment. Farmers suddenly find equipment being hauled in and their crops being hauled out because someone gave someone else a permit to mine on the farmer's land. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@somtaartakeit we may not like reality but we have to accept it to move on. if professional companies are allowed to run and extract the minerals its ok it the most effective...and efficient..... the laws of the land are still in the hands of the government they can change the tax laws any time to get more money to go to the people ... the companies can also pay to local taxes....
but having these entities in the hands of the government people ...Im sorry they have not shown themselves to be consistent and too many funny stories that are not hahaha
In the soviet union countries the downtrodden didnt benifit from the nationalised industries....and they suffered even more, because with nationalised farms and stuff the lazy government employees did their little bit for the day and as a result there wasnt enough food in the shops.... Zimbabwe style...
Tell it like it is my sister, this investor talk is purely scare tactics by those who stand to benefit from running their slave ships (amistads) on us, we are forever held hostage when we ask for a piece of the pie, I have witnessed one such investor in action and believe me, they aint sh1t. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
1tsotsi
Sinudeity
"Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government controlled Iscor? Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government established Foskor in Phalaborwa?
The apartheid government was boycotted by most of the world.
Why do the calls for nationalisation, always come from the incompetent/corrupt portion of the government?
====================
But the investors never left, also the B.rutal apartheid regime was boycotted coz is was immoral and treated other races as slaves, inhumanity. Why would investors leave now if they failed to leave back then, why why why Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
You know MC in developed world, the rich lobby their gov officials for tax friendly schemes so this helps them to continue making economy happen, the middle class lobby for the deliverance of necessities to ALL, in SA we are selfish everyone is looking out for themselves whilst the poor are left to their devices, first of all, no one is pleased with being called the down-trodden/poor/grassroots these ppl had dreams which were dashed by the gov and the middle-class for failing to raise their issues on their behalf, instead us middle class esp black (myself incl) decided to abandon the town ship life and moved to affluent suburbs bcoz somehow we think if we don't see izinyoka on the streets the problem is none existing so we don't lobby for the gov to roll out necessities we are pre-occupied with our self interests, we have become insensitive to the needs of the ppl hence the gov is taking a que from us, that is why they ONLY ever visit squatter camps to collect votes and make empty promises Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Is this guy for real????
Zimbabwe has investors? Thats news to everyone. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@KeRataBasadi
@ somaartakeit
Tell it like it is my sister, this investor talk is purely scare tactics by those who stand to benefit from running their slave ships (amistads) on us
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and in any case we have an upper hand on these investors, they need our minerals more than we need them, what we should be doing is get best businesses with best social development business plan fo the communities whose land is being mined as partners, that's why I say, at this juncture we need best possible leaders who have interests of the ppl to heart who will negotiate best deals on our behalf not these ja b@@ses
Nigeria is running its own resources from farming to energy they are poised to become economically stronger than SA in 10yrs thina we jama ikhuwa lisirithe umlando uzophela. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
It is like that the world over. Life is what you make of it. If you want to make your life about crying every time the river floods your pondokki then that is what your life will be about. If you want to build a house one brick at a time in a safe area then that is what your life will be about. Government can only do so much.
Yes, the government has failed in many areas and that is despicable but people need to also get out of their comfy little 'woe is me' ruts and do something for themselves. This new entitlement tendency is not helping anyone - least of all the poor Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
1tsotsi take a look at it only from a money point of view. think a little bit it will all become immediatly clear to you...
an investor is one who invests money in order to get returns on the money (dot) if a country nationalises the company he invested in...the initial investment is just taken away from him, and all his returns he was going to get as well , simple....
if they do that to mines why not to a car factory....and so on and so on...and so SA is not the only place on the planet an investor has to choose where to put his money
by the way there is nothing to stop the government building and delivering a new mine itself...question why havent they done this? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Is this guy for real????
Zimbabwe has investors? Thats news to everyone.
------------------------------------------
its prolly new to you not to everyone, cause a Swiss chocolate company amongst others invests in Zim dairy farms owned by Mrs Mugabe and there is also China. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
1tsotsi
Investors would leave because they have spent billions of rands investing in capital projects in this country with guarantees from our government that there will be a return on their investments.
We have no budget to pay for the mining firms, which means we would have to take shares at below market value or at no compensation which is called theft.
Those investors who would then lose billions in such a transaction would probably ask their governments to nuke us to pieces. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Xovizwe
@Some-one who promotes nationalization:
How will you directly benefit from Nationalization, and how will I directly benefit?
How will nationalization change the life of that person living in the shack without a job and an ID book?
For government to recover those moneys, it will take years, in fact, decades. Couple of individuals will be employed (cadres) to management of those mines, with their l0oting. Pe0ple will loose their jobs just like the time when SABC, ESKOM, etc went under government (Nationalization).
The fact is, with the Nationalization, the intended benefactors will never benefit anything, but Khulubuse's and Duduzana's, Malema's, Sexwale's and the few elite already in the mining industry will benefit. With their so called experience in mining, they will be running those mines for government. We all know the end-result.
It is like that the world over. Life is what you make of it. If you want to make your life about crying every time the river floods your pondokki then that is what your life will be about. If you want to build a house one brick at a time in a safe area then that is what your life will be about. Government can only do so much.
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except for in SA this gov hadn't had the time to address issues of the prev marginalised cause they are being held to ransom that the 'investors are goign to run away' when they are not indulging in public purse, also here in SA MC ppl need to be propped up cause of the dis-empower ment which happened not so long ago, and these competing at high levels of our economy had an unfair advantage, so you can't now say ppl need to do stuff for themselves when there are no support for them to do so.
Even in developed countries the gov supported by private sector gives ppl the tools to sustain themselves, why is it that in Africa ppl are expected to be their peak performance after they've been dis empowered for so many years? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Is this guy for real????
Zimbabwe has investors? Thats news to everyone.
------------------------------------------
its prolly new to you not to everyone, cause a Swiss chocolate company amongst others invests in Zim dairy farms owned by Mrs Mugabe and there is also China.
==============================================================================
Zimbabwe has an unemployment rate above 80 percent and its GDP is hovering around $5 billion dollars. It also has debts to the IMF it can never pay back. Yes and then there is China, using Zimbabweans as cattle fodder. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Xovizwe
Nationalization doesn't come for cheap, just like land redistribution. Government have to fork money, not little money but billions from our tax (just like e-tolls) Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MorenaWaPolelo
Why does this Mor0n want to Nationalise when he knows the Government can not afford too, why is Mathale always out of touch Lethuli House must get rid of this cretin!!! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Xovizwe
@Some-one who promotes nationalization:
How will you directly benefit from Nationalization, and how will I directly benefit?
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Not everything is as about you, the issues of land reform for instance affect those living in rural areas, the issue of mines affects communities in these areas, what is so difficult for you to understand in this? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Rothschild, I know abt high unemployment in Zim but I was correcting your statement that there are no investors there, ppl like you when talking abt zim must please try to stick with facts not emotions. I don't like uncle Bob anymore than you do, for causing ordinary Zimbabweans to be country-less but we must factual in analysing Zim situation we must not lie and say his land reform or nationalisation alone is responsible for the collapse of Zim economy when we all know that the powers be devalued Zim currency amongst other reasons their economy is weak. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Xovizwe
Nationalization doesn't come for cheap, just like land redistribution. Government have to fork money, not little money but billions from our tax (just like e-tolls)
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and the ignorance to use Zim situation as a scare tactic to try hold SA from natioalisation if what is what the ppl is super cillious to say the least, let us nationalise in rational terms, let us land reform in rational terms, let us not wait to be hijacked by rebels cause then it wld be chaos and everyone will lose. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@Rothschild, I know abt high unemployment in Zim but I was correcting your statement that there are no investors there, ppl like you when talking abt zim must please try to stick with facts not emotions. I don't like uncle Bob anymore than you do, for causing ordinary Zimbabweans to be country-less but we must factual in analysing Zim situation we must not lie and say his land reform or nationalisation alone is responsible for the collapse of Zim economy when we all know that the powers be devalued Zim currency amongst other reasons their economy is weak.
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a $5 billion GDP indicates that there are no investors there.
Soweto as a township filled with shacks has a bigger GDP than Zimbabwe
No emotions mate, just facts
I couldnt care less about Zimbabwe, its just another nasty chessboard for the powers as you say. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
1tsotsi
mambaaai
1tsotsi take a look at it only from a money point of view. think a little bit it will all become immediatly clear to you...
an investor is one who invests money in order to get returns on the money (dot) if a country nationalises the company he invested in...the initial investment is just taken away from him, and all his returns he was going to get as well , simple....
if they do that to mines why not to a car factory....and so on and so on...and so SA is not the only place on the planet an investor has to choose where to put his money
by the way there is nothing to stop the government building and delivering a new mine itself...question why havent they done this?
============
No need for you to try and sound smart, by lecturing to me whats an investor. The investor here is putting in money in exchange of our resources. Our resources are much more worth than the money thatthose investors put in our country as they take a huge chunck of it out of the country, The questions is why didnt they leave during those dark days. Thats why we say we must nationalise, the government is the people for the people, we not nationalising the investors profits, but our resources. And what makes you think that the investors will leave? Please dont join in a chorus which you dont know the notes of that song, rather clap your hands. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Lehido
The new meaning of the word IDIOT - "Cassel Mathale" Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
1tsotsi
The-Rothschilds
1tsotsi
Investors would leave because they have spent billions of rands investing in capital projects in this country with guarantees from our government that there will be a return on their investments.
We have no budget to pay for the mining firms, which means we would have to take shares at below market value or at no compensation which is called theft.
Those investors who would then lose billions in such a transaction would probably ask their governments to nuke us to pieces.
==================
You see your problem is that you assuming that the so-called investor would leave, what makes you think that they will leave? are you a fortune teller now? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
KeRataBasadi
@ somaartakeit
My take is, until the truth comes out about what exactly was negotiated upon at CODESA, when these big businesses where setting the agenda on behalf of the oppressor and oppressed , we will not see any significant change to our situation.Here is my theory (humour me), my take is that these guys have dirt on some if not most of the ANC leadership, most or some of which where Imidlwembe as it were, so it was a case of letting them keep the glory (hero status) and they keep the money but will share it with the "best" among them, your Cyrils, Tokyos, etc. and ofcourse f2ck the poor, they are used to the conditions anyway right, (i distinctly remember one such comrade blogger jjq saying something along those lines). Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@somaartakeit but having said that on investors.... the idea about and investor... we have Nandos and mc donalds.... the profits from mc donalds go to the USA and Nandos the profits stay here .... both have created jobs
the bottom line, we need to keep and grow our SA investors Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
How are 'investors' holding our education facilities 'hostage'? How are 'investors' holding Eiskom 'hostage'? How are 'investors' holding water and sewage works 'hostage'? How are 'investors' holding our hospitals and police stations 'hostage'?
The problem is that the previously marginalised don't need a hand out - they need a hand UP. You think that giving them a half expired tin mine is going to do that. I think that a decent job and a lot of job opportunities would be far more effective Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
1tsotsi
Can you read?
Have you ever invested? Would you keep your investment somewhere, if someone threatened to take it or actually takes it?
Zimbabwe could not pay it debts and defaulted in 1999, therefore the US blocked the IMF from giving out any loans until there were political reforms in Zimbabwe. Like Greece has had to take painful reforms, even a change of government for emergency loans. Mad Bob has refused to allow any reforms to happen.
Lehido
The new meaning of the word IDIOT - "Cassel Mathale"
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Explains why there are so many problems in Limpopo Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Rotschilds this irrational and unfounded fear you guys have when we speak about nationalisation and land reform is a direct reason that we are being held to ransom by radicals, I say let us openly and honestly discuss fairly call the bluff of those who want to use this as a vehicle to remain in power, we're calling their bluff and at the same time taking power back, surely if there is nothing alarming/sinister no one should be threatened by an honest and civilised discussion on fair distribution of country's resources.
@MC which part of any of my commentary alluded to what you say about social structures that are collapsing being held to ransom by investors, which part please do tell, and for the sake of savign time, can we please remain on course iro this debate an stop creating ghosts and other scare tactics where there are non. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@1tsotsi you are right about the proportion of the investment compared to the value of the resource.... but the resource still belongs to the land to the people...........the people represented by the government get royalties and taxes from the investors from what they produced and treated in eachh of the mines...........the taxes and royalies are for service delivery to the people the government choses what the taxes and royalies should be.... Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@mambaaai
@somaartakeit but having said that on investors.... the idea about and investor... we have Nandos and mc donalds.... the profits from mc donalds go to the USA and Nandos the profits stay here .... both have created jobs
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@Mambaai I really really don't care abt McDonalds or KFC cause those are USA entities so they can do with it what they want, mines are our national resources and I guess its a reasonable expectation for SAns to expect a share of these? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
You are the one blaming industry for all the ills of the poor and the government's inability to provide service. I just want to know how industry is doing so Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
"You are the one blaming industry for all the ills of the poor and the government's inability to provide service..." you wish that was the case so you can validate your disagreeing with my stand point, you also wld have read my views on the failing social structures which I hve blamed squarely on the regime hence I have called for regime change, so when did I say investors are responsible for collapsing of our social structures, copy paste that message here so we can take it further from there. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@ somaartakeit
there is a mechanism how SAns and nationals from countries around the world benifit from the treatment of the resources via taxes and royalties imposed by the government (the elected peoples representatives) many tried to explain, but it seems some have been completely blinded by emotive politicing Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
I never once gave a view point about nationalisation, i simply questioned Mathale's logic in using Zimbabwe's as a example to justify some made idea he has about investor behavior.
Once again you jumped to conclusions. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
"except for in SA this gov hadn't had the time to address issues of the prev marginalised cause they are being held to ransom that the 'investors are goign to run away' "
Direct quote from you - scroll up and check if you don't believe me. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
mines are our national resources and I guess its a reasonable expectation for SAns to expect a share of these?
MINES are not a national resource MINERALS are a national resource (owned by the state) Mines didn't pop up out of nowhere, they were built.
Why does nobody want the MINERALS but only the MINES? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@mambaaai - do you know about the retribution case lodged in the UK as we speak by some of the (former I think?) mine workers who claimed that their health has been put to risk due to poor working conditions? the calls for nationalisation wldn't be this strong if these so called investors treated their slaves with a shred of humility, those now suing AngloAmerican wld have no case no?
@Rotschilds your original comment said it was new to everyone that there are investors in Zim? your arrogance caused you assume on behalf of everyone that we believe there is no investments in Zim? which of course is lie, same lies pushed by British aligned press to taint Zimbabwe cause of diplomatic stand off btwn Britain and Zim, you know as much as I do that Zim economy collapse was spear headed by amongst other players GB in cahots with USA and this selfishness and political bullyism caused scores of Zimbabweans to become economic refugees. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Wozanami
Nationalisation could conceivably work if government was largely uncorrupted.
The fact of the matter is that if our mines were nationalised, but perhaps managed by private sector, and managed to maintain market competitiveness, they could be a huge help to the welfare of the people.
Instead, we know that in the current climate of honesty in gvt, benefit to the masses would be minimal if any.
In 20 years after nationalisation, there will be none of these "economic freedom in our lifetime" slogan-chanters to explain why the masses felt no tangible benefit. fat cats just get fatter. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
"except for in SA this gov hadn't had the time to address issues of the prev marginalised cause they are being held to ransom that the 'investors are goign to run away' "
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Pliz don't quote bits and pieces of my commentary to suit your agenda, I said that there is no reason whatsover to fear nationalisation or land reform and citing Zim's examples cause this is tantamount to holding SAn regime to ransom, SA since 1994 has been held to ransom by unfounded fears of the minorities to eg land reform, nationalisation these fears which fmr president Nelson Mandela spent a lot of time nursing, guys enough of this BS already, majority citizens here are down troddens those are the real fears and legitimate ones to that effect and they must be addressed with such urgency cause we have already lost 18yrs looking for the boogey man feared by the minorities. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
There are no investors in Zim which is indicated by its $5 billion dollar GDP and its GDP to debt ratio of over 150 percent.
The few investors that are left in Zim are White Rhodesians who are trying to hold on to their family businesses they have developed over decades, but they are living in this dream world that Zimbabwe will return to its former glory...........which is just a dream. There there is those few who are rich in ZANU PF by robing the treasury dry which explains the GDP debt ratio to be at 150% Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Wozanami
Nationalisation could conceivably work if government was largely uncorrupted.
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You see I like that opening statement cause you are dismissing the needs/frustrations of those calling for this, you are first acknowledging (as every human should who is sensitive to the needs of others) the other guys arguing against just go straight out and be arrogant and concl that its not feasible, this is what annoys those who are for it. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
As for Britain and the USA..................they have pulled the plug on Zim, and had every right to do so......................as a investor, i would of also taken my money out of Zim if had any of there........noone in their right mind would keep money in a country where there is no rule of law or respect for property rights............you might as well kiss your money good bye, which is what the Zimbabweans did.......with their Zim dollars, it served better purpose being toilet paper. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Ntjapeli
This manhas GONE INSANE.
Is he MAD? Shame on you STUPID.
Malema infected Limpopo already? Mathale
is as MAD. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Ntjapeli
This man is so
REDUNDANT. He
doesn't say anything
to address issues people
are dealing with. However
what are the intelectuals in
Limpopo doing about this DUMBFUCK?
Waiting for handovers? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
You have no concept of the importance of tenure security, do you?
Lets take the Zim situation with farm invasions.
The majority of those farms had mortgages with the banks. The banks took one hell of a knock and, as a result, the twit Gono decided to print a shed load of moola to cover the loss. We all know how that worked out. An added problem was that the banks then didn't want to loan to farmers (not surprisingly as they never knew if they were going to get their money back or not). Now farms cannot possibly upgrade or repair or even exist without at least a scary overdraft. The inability to secure said overdraft makes effective commercial farming impossible. We also know how that worked out.
One of the greatest hinderer to Africa is the land tenure problem. Community ownership or 'chief' ownership makes taking out a loan to purchase irrigation equipment / tractors / etc impossible. The result is that the full potential of the land is not achieved and the person who works the land is forced to work harder and earn less than if he owned it. It is a direct contributor to the poverty cycle. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
But im still trying to see where i ever spoke about my views on nationalisation where you are trying to impose the view that "we must land reform and nationalize in a rational way" Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
"The few inve stors that are left in Zim are Wh!te Rho desians ...." ROTFLOL they still have those? at least you have confi dence and arrogance to ackno wledge that in Zim there still are Ian Smi th remnants, rednecks ontamo lukhuni, lol no wonder bob is not yielding an inch,
btw in the future please you don't have to express colour of Rhode sians we all know they are all white, the rest are Zimba bweans! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Wozanami
@Somaar
There is no one in this room including you or me, who have a working understanding of the implications of nationalisation, how it would work, who it would benefit, and what the knock-on effects would be. Apart from the fact that none of us can see the future, this is a very complicated economic concept.
Your arguments are just as emotional as the arguments of those who argue against it. You refuse to see their side just as they refuse to see yours. both arguments have good points and are blind to the points of the other.
the irony is that BOTH sets of people want what is best for Mzansi.
"But im still trying to see where i ever spoke about my views on nationalisation where you are trying to impose the view that "we must land reform and nationalize in a rational way" I cld never impose anything on you, I have no need, more than I say this debate is on going with/out your participation in it cause this is what the ppl now want to talk about, after waiting for 18yrs for the regime to deliver. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Wozanami, I see their side alright, and it is selfish to try stiffle the debate cause some have fears or want to hold on ill gotten gains, the ppl represented by the leaders who are calling for nationalisation and land reform have a right to call for this discussion to be opened without it being hindered by unfounded fears at expense of real and legitimate issues,
of course we have no understanding of how this if implemented will pan out, but does that mean we should not try at least work towards that, how will we know if we don't work with it, or should wait for political radicals to hijack this national agenda whilst we allow ourselves to held back by un/real fear of the unknown?
JFYI I have nothing to gain if nationalisation or land reform happens, but just cause I am not affected does not mean I can not see the point of view of the ppl who feel they are not benefiting they way things are iro these projects. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
"But im still trying to see where i ever spoke about my views on nationalisation where you are trying to impose the view that "we must land reform and nationalize in a rational way" I cld never impose anything on you, I have no need, more than I say this debate is on going with/out your participation in it cause this is what the ppl now want to talk about, after waiting for 18yrs for the regime to deliver.
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So let them debate, i never gave my view about nationalization, you assumed i gave a view, when i was questioning Mathale's ridiculous theory on Zimbabwe and investors...............just like Irvin Jim's teeth, you just seem to assume too much. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit"...............just like Irvin Jim's teeth, you just seem to assume too much" at least Irvin Jim has his own teeth wena you have false teeth *sit down* Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
"The few inve stors that are left in Zim are Wh!te Rho desians ...." ROTFLOL they still have those? at least you have confi dence and arrogance to ackno wledge that in Zim there still are Ian Smi th remnants, rednecks ontamo lukhuni, lol no wonder bob is not yielding an inch,
btw in the future please you don't have to express colour of Rhode sians we all know they are all white, the rest are Zimba bweans!
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Well at least now we have covered the investor part. Now that we agree that there are like no investors in Zim, now we can move on and say that Mathale should not use Zimbabwe as a good example when relating to investors? Unless he wants SA to keep those red necks ontamo lukhuni lurking around.
There is nothing wrong with expressing colour.............perhaps you should not call people red necks then MR. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit"...............just like Irvin Jim's teeth, you just seem to assume too much" at least Irvin Jim has his own teeth wena you have false teeth *sit down*
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and btw guys, it is annoying to the majority that each time the minorities have fears (legitimate or not) a discussion on major issues has to be abandoned cause they feel uncomfortable discussing it, such as in this case land reform and renationalisation, you guys must understand that TRC does not translate to, we will only talk about what is convenient, in order for forgiveness to prevail, we must be honest with each other, the majority are the transgressors who want to dictate to those who are expected to forgive the past the rules of the game, this is arrogance and outright undermining others, why are you so against land reform and nationalisation that you have developed a phobia about it?
We (majority) had to swallow our pain for the sake of peace, all that we expect is for you guys to understand that we also have insecurities and we also want to be part of the economic pie, and one of the way to ensure this, is suggested land reform and renationalisation, how can it be wrong for ppl who have been dis empo wered by an unjust system to suggest some of the ways they feel wld help alliviate poverty in their communities, it is ONLY selfish driven interests that anyone could reject this, esp since no one is violent about asking for such a debate to opened/ Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Rothschilds I know what when you Rhodesians an issue of land reform and nationalisation it has the same effect as the red flag to a b#ll, but you must know that here in SA we have democracy we can discuss everything, wena dont' suffocate this discussion with your irrational fears which you are imposing on us, we are not rensponsible for your soured relations with Mugabe, you shld be grateful that we are nice and welcomed you Rhodesian refugees warmly here in SA, you don't have to participate in this debate, cause we see that you have some very deep psychological problems as a direct result your being ntamo lukhuni much to the annoyance of our uncle Bob, but please don't stall the process here, you are a guest after all! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
And its annoying that there are loud mouths like yourself who like to assume what minorities are feeling and debating and what is even more annoying is that you seem to believe you are the official mouth piece for the majority.
There are alot of people elected by your majority of people who would completely disagree with your point of view when regarding the economy & political issues in this country. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
"There are alot of people elected by your majority of people who would completely disagree with your point of view when regarding the economy & political issues in this country" if that were the case why do majority still vote anc and not the DA? have you not been paying attention that most that are voting the DA like myself say that we are doing so AGAINST the anc not because we think they really have interests of majority issues to heart? do you actually think the DA will ever gov SA? cause if you do then you are completely overdosing on your meds, now go drink water and sleep!. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit-
I have never been to ZImbabwe ................. master of assumptions. I could not care less about ZImbabwe, doesnt not mean im oblivious about what is happening in the economics over there and the rest of the world........i have a masters in economics and with that knowledge i am quite capable of deciding what went wrong in ZIm.
As for nationalisation and land reform in SA, i still have not given my views to you yet. And i dont plan to, either, you really not worth any debate.
If anything you should really waste your life researching the pigmentation of skin, since you are so obsessed with it.
There are many in the ANC who do not agree with your economic or political view points (the majority party)
Is that much better than? Christ you like a tumble dryer.................i did not even mention the DA and now you just typed a hole lot of hog wash about the DA i dont care about.
"I have never been to ZImbabwe ................. master of assumptions" but you already know that there Rhodesians who are the white hope rescuing zim economy (you cristal ball owner)!
"I could not care less about ZImbabwe..." so? why are you talking about it then? you're wasting my time engaging me on something you don't care about, go to bed, now!!!
Somaartakeit, I think those investors in Zim are only investing because it's Mrs Mugabe's dairy farm. Some big kickbacks must be in play there. Also, I believe the ones against nasionalisation of the mines are not against it in principle. Our fears are because of the inefficient, corrupt government. It does not help to destroy something that is working fine, the poor stay exactly where they are, and the ones who did have jobs now have nothing. If we could have more faith in our government, we'd be more open to changes. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"There are many in the ANC who do not agree with your economic or political view points (the majority party)"
You're missing the whole point Mister!! Mathale who is anc gov min and premier said mines should be nationalised, and I said I see his point of view and I also said in doing so we need to be honest and open with view to resolve this outstanding (per FC) national issue with fair distribution of national resources, and you must please not talk on behalf of majority cause ppl like you the ONLY real interaction you with ppl from those communities is when they come to house to do chores for your and you think you know them and their aspiration, sit down mlungu ndini I am getting naar with you!! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit-
"I have never been to ZImbabwe ................. master of assumptions" but you already know that there Rhodesians who are the white hope rescuing zim economy (you cristal ball owner)!
"I could not care less about ZImbabwe..." so? why are you talking about it then? you're wasting my time engaging me on something you don't care about, go to bed, now!!!
Because you made an assumption that im a Rhodesian refugee.
I dont care about Zim, what i do care about is that we have politicians making ridiculous theories about Zimbabwe and consumer behaviour, because it effects this country. My home.
I think Mr Mathale has used wrong example of Zimbabwe. We should come up with our own strategy of making our natural resource work for us all. Each country has unique problems and is proven time and time again that, any market system by it self never works. We should have a good mix of market systems that will benefit all our people. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@oldlady2
Somaartakeit, I think those investors in Zim are only investing because it's Mrs Mugabe's dairy farm.
---------------------------------------------
So you agree with me that there are investors who are investing in Zim? can you please transmit this simple msg to Rothschild who seem to think there are no investors, thank you!
Whether they are investing as you suggest on the farms bcoz they are Grace's farms is neither here nor there, the point I was making which you have also confirmed is that, the statement by Rothschild that there are no investors in Zim is FALSE.
And just to entertain your argument that they are investing on the farms cause they belong to Mrs Mugabe, that then will mean there is something 'good about these Mugabe' which attracts the Swiss chocolate company to invest in the farms owned by Mrs Mugabe? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"There are many in the ANC who do not agree with your economic or political view points (the majority party)"
You're missing the whole point Mister!! Mathale who is anc gov min and premier said mines should be nationalised, and I said I see his point of view and I also said in doing so we need to be honest and open with view to resolve this outstanding (per FC) national issue with fair distribution of national resources, and you must please not talk on behalf of majority cause ppl like you the ONLY real interaction you with ppl from those communities is when they come to house to do chores for your and you think you know them and their aspiration, sit down mlungu ndini I am getting naar with you!!
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Oh my god dude, you are really annoying.
I never spoke on behalf of any majority unlike yourself.
I just said that there are many in the ruling party who do not agree with you...........so you must stop acting like the official mouth piece of the majority.
Unlike you, i dont try act like i know whats best for everyone.......................and trust me, from your comments, i dont think you know whats best for anyone either.................you are way to racist Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Because you made an assumption that im a Rhodesian refugee" you are a refugee nonetheless, lol
"I dont care about Zim, what i do care about is that we have politicians making ridiculous theories about Zimbabwe and consumer behaviour..." he has a right to make these comments afterall we are all entitled to our views, yours and mine is seek facts in what he is saying, wena you come up with false claim that there are no investors in Zim just Rhodesian white hope saving the day, who is more lying you or Mathale? that's a rhetorical question, the point is wena you can't restrain yourself from being emotional when we discuss malema (ANCYL, Mugabe) and all those guys who seem to threaten your comfort zone, why? and please be rational in your responses cause for this one I want to assume that you are a sane person not a mental case, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
So you agree with me that there are investors who are investing in Zim? can you please transmit this simple msg to Rothschild who seem to think there are no investors, thank you!
I dont consider a couple of farms & mines in ZImbabwe that provide employment to less than 10% of the working age population investment dude........................every country, even war zones, have some sort of investment in it..................its the magnitude of investment.
Somaartakeit, of course there is something good about the Mugabe dairy farm transaction. Major kickbacks. Like you, I also firmly believe that no investor will run away because of policy changes. They just change their investments accordingly. If the mines are nationalised with our current cadres in place, they'd just invest in those cadres personal bank accounts and the rest of us will have even less. I'd like you to respond on me saying we are not against nationalisation in principle, but because of the "trust" wehave in our current government. Do you honestly think the current government can and will make it work for the poor? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Because you made an assumption that im a Rhodesian refugee" you are a refugee nonetheless, lol
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@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"Oh my god dude, you are really annoying..." very good!!!.
"I never spoke on behalf of any majority unlike yourself" btwn you and me who has most legitimacy talking on behalf of the masses given that I come from those communities, wena you are trying to control how I align myself, which is a problem of your being arrogant, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
"I dont consider...." how did this discussion abt Zim's economy become about you? Jirre do your ego is huge I wonder how you fit into a normal size bldng! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Because you made an assumption that im a Rhodesian refugee" you are a refugee nonetheless, lol
"I dont care about Zim, what i do care about is that we have politicians making ridiculous theories about Zimbabwe and consumer behaviour..." he has a right to make these comments afterall we are all entitled to our views, yours and mine is seek facts in what he is saying, wena you come up with false claim that there are no investors in Zim just Rhodesian white hope saving the day, who is more lying you or Mathale? that's a rhetorical question, the point is wena you can't restrain yourself from being emotional when we discuss malema (ANCYL, Mugabe) and all those guys who seem to threaten your comfort zone, why? and please be rational in your responses cause for this one I want to assume that you are a sane person not a mental case,
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Yes Mathale has the right to express his views just like i have the right to tell him his wrong and should check his facts.
If he wants to turn South Africa into a $5 billion Zimbabwe size economy from its current $500 billion economy, then i have the right to say, that he is completely stupid.
I never said white rhodesians are saving the day, i said they are the only investors left apart from the few in ZANU PF...................those few white rhodesians and ZANU PF control the tiny $5 billion that is left in that forsaken country...............i certainly dont want my country or home to turn into such a hell hole. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"i wont drop to your level " don't worry about it for you have no level to start off with, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
"I dont consider...." how did this discussion abt Zim's economy become about you? Jirre do your ego is huge I wonder how you fit into a normal size bldng!
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As having a masters in economics, my view point on investment patterns would mean more than a retard like yourself...................no offense to retards! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"i wont drop to your level " don't worry about it for you have no level to start off with,
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and you have a level? trying to insult people when you have very little or no knowledge of much in life. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Yes Mathale has the right to express his views just like i have the right to tell him his wrong and should check his facts" Except for you have failed to tell him that he is wrong with facts to hand, instead you lie and say there are no investors in Zim a lie I tried to correct but you are a stubborn Rhodesian refugee, judging by your behaviour here I can see how guys like you drove poor uncle Bob mad as he is today, and you blame for it, lol.
"If he wants to turn South Africa..." don't be paranoid mlungu man this is just Mathele's opinion which you rightly stated he is entitled to it, others are for or against it and if majority agrees then there is nothing you can do against that, its democracy my friend:-)
"I never said white Rhodesians are saving the day..." that is how it came across, and btw I said if there are Rhode sians in Zim they can only be white, others are Zimbabweans so don't over emphasise too much on the race of said Rhode sians residing in Zim, just for interests sake do these Rhode sians know that Ian Sm!th is no more? lol Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"and you have a level? trying to insult people when you have very little or no knowledge of much in life" I am glad that you realise that I am not good at insulting ppl cause unlike you I was not brought and handed down a manual of insults:-) Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
Jirre maar Rotschilds why don't you come up straight and admit that you fancy me? cause now you are monopolising my time, do you think over arguing with me will make me change my point of view? just admit it mlungu you fancy me but you have no approach, lol Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Yes Mathale has the right to express his views just like i have the right to tell him his wrong and should check his facts" Except for you have failed to tell him that he is wrong with facts to hand, instead you lie and say there are no investors in Zim a lie I tried to correct but you are a stubborn Rhodesian refugee, judging by your behaviour here I can see how guys like you drove poor uncle Bob mad as he is today, and you blame for it, lol.
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I never gave any wrong facts, there is not investment in Zimbabwe, besides immanence of last remaining rhodesians and ofcourse, the politicians. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"As having a masters in economics, my view point on investment patterns would mean more than a retard like yourself........" history shows us that guys like you with all education and unfair head start and advantages you took you still are stupid cause you replicate same mistakes everywhere you go, plus how do you explain that you lot still are Rhodesians and God knows what not and failing to integrate or speak local lingos? and you assume somehow you are superior? IF anything you guys are advance economy cause fo the brut force employed when your forebears came to Africa to colonise, cause you have no ability to be fair or compete on an equal footing, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"I never gave any wrong facts, there is not investment in Zimbabwe, besides immanence of last remaining rhodesians and ofcourse, the politicians" SO then Mr diploma in economic what do you call investments by Swiss company and China in Zim? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartekeit
"If he wants to turn South Africa..." don't be paranoid mlungu man this is just Mathele's opinion which you rightly stated he is entitled to it, others are for or against it and if majority agrees then there is nothing you can do against that, its democracy my friend:-)
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And in a democracy i have the right to disagree with Mathale Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
And also Rotschilds the inability for guys like you to understand a simple form of life that we can't always be agreeing on same things, I was reading with much amusement that your kind up in arms cause Khaya Dlanga wrote his views on usage of the term 'refugee' by Helen Zille, others calling him an anc sympathiser when Khaya politically is aligned to Cope, it is this irrationality and ignorance that there is always going to be you and us when it comes to you guys, cause you can't accept that a black person has an opinion which differs from yours, you are threatened by everything, you are paranoid and mentally underdeveloped taht you can not engage with your opponents civilly and in a marture manner, hence I say you guys with all the degree you claim you have but you still remain cavemen who still believe domninance of others is the way to go, even the world master bullies (USA) has taken a different approach cause they have realised after tried and failed 'dominance approach' that they will be met with resistance, wena and your ilk are without any ability whatsoever to learn frm yoru mistakes you replicate them, that my friend is a direct reason you will alienate yourselves. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"And in a democracy i have the right to disagree with Mathale..." has anyone denied of that right? you paranoid refugee. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
Herein, dears and dufuses, lays the reason that this debate can never be productive. It simply degenerates into personal insults and pettiness. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@somaartakeit
mambaaai - do you know about the retribution case lodged in the UK as we speak by some of the (former I think?) mine workers who claimed that their health has been put to risk due to poor working conditions? the calls for nationalisation wldn't be this strong if these so called investors treated their slaves with a shred of humility, those now suing AngloAmerican wld have no case no?
the discussion is about nationalisation, so lets suppose for one moment that those very same mines belonged to the government.... this ANC government.... I wonder how the claims would be treated...? ummmm lets guess middle finger treatment again...same like all the other stuff...they have promised us...this is.not even on stuff they didnt promise so almost 100% sure MF for those poor guys if it was this nationalised and was this crowd even
Personnally I think they stand a better chance because its Anglo, because Anglo want to protect its public image...plus the governement can put pressure on them...with health and safety laws to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again
MommaC
Herein, dears and dufuses, lays the reason that this debate can never be productive. It simply degenerates into personal insults and pettiness.
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"...of course there is something good about the Mugabe dairy farm transaction. Major kickbacks..." I am confused now, Mrs Mugabe owns the farm/s Swiss Chocolate firms invest in and btw you do know that Swiss Chocolate is big business in the West after the roses which are sourced from Kenya? so what I wanted to ask why wld Swiss give kick backs to Mrs Mugabe to invest n her business? Pliz you guys stop assuming the worse of Mugabes cause most of us don't agree with them politically.
The belief on the running away of investors on my part is based on the world economic realities today, that is, the West needs Africa (for her resources) more than Africa needs the West plus there are new economic power kids on the block (China, Russia) who are giving the West a run for their monies, that is why I said, we are in a perfect position now, to chose the ones who are most likely to respect us and help us (by funding social development projects) so we can realise a goal of a better life for all. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
Herein, dears and dufuses, lays the reason that this debate can never be productive. It simply degenerates into personal insults and pettiness.
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"It simply degenerates into personal insults and pettiness..." you may disembark frm your high horse now given that you also are guilty of same as you just called ppl dufases, lol Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"And in a democracy i have the right to disagree with Mathale..." has anyone denied of that right? you paranoid refugee.
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You seem to deny everyone what right who posts there views on here by acting like a wh0re that doesnt get paid..................................i know what is right and what is wrong, i never disgareed with Mathale on the basis of nationalisation............i disagreed with him to use ZImbabwe as a good example to follow.
As i said to you before, i never gave my views on nationalization or land reform...........you immediately assumed i was against it because i disagreed with Mathale's views on investor behaviour. And then you result to insults & assumptions you praying would put a dent in my ego.
Some of the insults were uncalled for, but what do you expect from a low life trash like yourself. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@mambaaai
"Personnally I think they stand a better chance because its Anglo, because Anglo want to protect its public image...plus the governement can put pressure on them...with health and safety laws to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again..." wouldn't it be nice if companies didn't wait to be pressured on social responsibility? I doubt Anglo is aware of the mess its in, if they insist on waiting to be pressured in order for them to do the right thing, did you read abt what's happening to them in Congo? I read that the rebels have taken full control of some of its mines, that my friend is a direct of Anglo not being pro-active in its social development projects, that cld happen here, I don't wish for it but that's how the dice rolls when the masses get fed-up for waiting to be partners in the economy, hence I say ppl must repeat mistakes, they must LEARN.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying the anc regime are saints and are capable to do right by the ppl, but the power my friend lies with the ppl, that is why both Anglo and the anc must pay attention to what the ppl want... Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"You seem to deny everyone what right who posts there views..." you seem to be paranoid and crazy my friend, take your meds please. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
LOL
Are you calling yourself a dufus?
By the way, Nestle is now pretty much multinational and their core products are not chocolate but rather infant formula Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"I never gave any wrong facts, there is not investment in Zimbabwe, besides immanence of last remaining rhodesians and ofcourse, the politicians" SO then Mr diploma in economic what do you call investments by Swiss company and China in Zim?
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$5 billion dollar GDP for 11 million people
80 % unemployment and getting worse
3 out of 10 Zimbabweans rely on food parcels
extremely low levels of bank liquidity
LOL
Are you calling yourself a dufus? - don't be daft.
WRT Nestle comment, whether multinational or not its neither here nor there, fact is they are investing in Zim contrary to what Mr diploma in economic wld have us believe that there are no investors in Zim, please tell him that a multinational company that is Nestle are amongst main investors and if I were to research further I have no doubt that Coca Cola fall amongst multinationals investing in Zim as i saw the other day they are with the Belgians on a youth development programme sponsoring Zim cyclists Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
Rothschilds what is so difficult for you to understand that your original statement that there are no investors in Zim to feed on your paranoid about land reform and nationalisation talked abt by the anc youth, is not entirely correct? this is the main thing I spoke to you about, then you decided to say you have a degree and from that you have your concl that Swiss (Nestle) China are not investors, are they then tourists in Zim? hayi suka nawe. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
cause you can't accept that a black person has an opinion which differs from yours, you are threatened by everything, you are paranoid and mentally underdeveloped taht you can not engage with your opponents civilly and in a marture manner
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If a white person gave the same opinion as Mathale, i would of given the same response
Take your own advise and debate in a mature manner before resorting to insults Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"If a white person gave the same opinion as Mathale.." except for you responded to his comments by lying because your paranoid about land reform and nationalisation prevents you from debating issues in a rational manner,and you lie about the obvious, there are investments in Zim yes their economy i snot as big as it should but fact remain they are attracting some of investments, why can you not admit the basic fact then we can move on? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
Rothschilds what is so difficult for you to understand that your original statement that there are no investors in Zim to feed on your paranoid about land reform and nationalisation talked abt by the anc youth, is not entirely correct? this is the main thing I spoke to you about, then you decided to say you have a degree and from that you have your concl that Swiss (Nestle) China are not investors, are they then tourists in Zim? hayi suka nawe.
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No its not correct, that is your assumption. I never gave my view on nationalization. I never said i was against it, i said i was against Mathale views.
Investment in ZImbabwe is so small, it doesnt dent the economic hardships that Zimbabweans will experience for decades to come. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
Ngiyaphapha
Its land expropriation without compensation for arrogant pinkies.... Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Take your own advise and debate in a mature manner before resorting to insults..." and btw way I didn't insult you I just said you are economical with the truth, as a direct result of your inability to acknowledge that a black person has a differing opinion to your superior one which maybe true, you resort to being rude, what did you expect me to do? roll out a red carpet and say yes massa? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Ngiyaphapha
Its land expropriation without compensation for arrogant pinkies....
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the farms which are use to train right wing militants must be confiscated by this regime from these ppl cause clearly those farmers who are allowing for their farmers to do such clearly have no need for that land. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@somaartakeit to be fair there can exist "chancers" to catch some extra money... in the old days the mines and the people didnt know or understand these things and only get to see the results later...
and then Im not sure that the people were ever forced to go into these conditions so.... if they thought it was unsafe they could just refuse...but mostly the laws of the land are quite good and have the companies take preventative measures...
but once again....if the mines were nationalised...... does a party that wants to be re-elected by its people want to have this kind of thing on their hands? I think not...so they let the investors take the risks....and they just receive royalties and taxes....
around pressure and responsbility any idea why this current ANC crew have tried to stop informatuion getting to the people via the press....and try to block information....for the same reasons....they want to keep the people uninformed and uneducated because the educated and informed people are going to put them under pressure and make them act responsably...
Im really of the opinion that nationalisation is unworkable and unpracticle and not an option in todays world. and considering the discussion and the information you "worked for " today...and have learned.... I see this topic as a cheap political manouvre....and it may wash for the ones who have never questioned .... but in reality....naaa Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"If a white person gave the same opinion as Mathale.." except for you responded to his comments by lying because your paranoid about land reform and nationalisation prevents you from debating issues in a rational manner,and you lie about the obvious, there are investments in Zim yes their economy i snot as big as it should but fact remain they are attracting some of investments, why can you not admit the basic fact then we can move on?
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Yes i am paranoid about a Zimbabwe style land reform and company grabs, because i know what it will do to the economy. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
Nestle actually have separate entities in different countries. Nestle Zimbabwe (PTY) Ltd is a registered company in Zim and is run as almost a franchise type operation. Thats how they get around certain local laws.
Coke in Zim is owned by ABI which, in turn, is owned by SABreweries. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Investment in ZImbabwe is so small, it doesnt dent the economic hardships that Zimbabweans will experience for decades to come" you are stating the obvious Mr Big Diploma in Economics, cuz everyone using 1% of their braincells know that Zim economy was being suffocated to punish the cheeky president of Zim who dares stand up to the might British. Unfortunately for them they have no influence in China or Switzerland but they have devalued the currency like they have suffocated Argentina and Cuba because of diplomatic stale mate, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
Nestle actually have separate entities in different countries. Nestle Zimbabwe (PTY) Ltd is a registered company in Zim and is run as almost a franchise type operation. Thats how they get around certain local laws.
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that is NEVER in question, more than I used it show mr big diploma in economics that NESTLE WHICH IS SWISS company INVESTS in ZIM, where he said there are NO INVESTORS in Zim, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Take your own advise and debate in a mature manner before resorting to insults..." and btw way I didn't insult you I just said you are economical with the truth, as a direct result of your inability to acknowledge that a black person has a differing opinion to your superior one which maybe true, you resort to being rude, what did you expect me to do? roll out a red carpet and say yes massa?
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I just said having a masters in economics, my view points on investment in a country are very solid.....................because you seemed to ask my why does my opinion matter.
"Coke in Zim is owned by ABI which, in turn, is owned by SABreweries..." You see mr big diploma in economics another investor in Zim. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"I just said having a masters in economics, my view points on investment in a country are very solid.....................because you seemed to ask my why does my opinion matter..." I don't recall saying your opinion don't matter more than I said, it is FACTUALLY FALSE to say by your Mr big diploma in economics that there ARE NO INVESTORS in Zim. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Yes i am paranoid about a Zimbabwe style land reform and company grabs, because i know what it will do to the economy..." has there been an official announcement that there will be zim style land grabs/nationalising or is this another scaremongering tacts to try prevent discussion on these issues? your paranoid should not result in us not debating what needs to be debated wena you must sort out your paranoid (mental issues) seek professional help. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
I said there is no investment in Zim or should i say, enough investment
I never said there are no investors, i told you, there are investors in Zim, most of them been white Zimabweans and ZANU PF ministers. But Zim is failing to attract enough investment to pull the country out of its slump. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@somaartakeit the question is currently are the people in Zim flourishing , happy, well fed and content or do they go to other countries for "a better life"? and then lets wind back the clock 40 years and see what Zimbabwes economy looked like relative to the others in the world.....and were the people running from the country then? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Yes i am paranoid about a Zimbabwe style land reform and company grabs, because i know what it will do to the economy..." has there been an official announcement that there will be zim style land grabs/nationalising or is this another scaremongering tacts to try prevent discussion on these issues? your paranoid should not result in us not debating what needs to be debated wena you must sort out your paranoid (mental issues) seek professional help.
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dude f*ck off seriously
i never once said noone cant debate, i just disgreed with Mathale's views
get over it now..........noone is stopping any debate Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
"...or should i say, enough investment..." you needed a degree in economics to come this obvious concl? how many times have been trying to say to you that the economy of Zim has been deliberately been suffocated to punish their 'cheeky' president? unfortunately for Mugabe he took on the most powerful who influence WB and IMF amongst other int'l economic controllers.
Most of us without degrees in economics already knew that what is happening to Zimbabwe is what has been done by America to Cuba when America didnt' get its way it used it power to bully economy of that country, you sometimes the West has a lot to answer for destroyed economies and lives. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
As for Britain and the USA..................they have pulled the plug on Zim, and had every right to do so......................as a investor, i would of also taken my money out of Zim if had any of there........noone in their right mind would keep money in a country where there is no rule of law or respect for property rights............you might as well kiss your money good bye, which is what the Zimbabweans did.......with their Zim dollars, it served better purpose being toilet paper. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Yes i am paranoid about a Zimbabwe style land reform and company grabs, because i know what it will do to the economy..." has there been an official announcement that there will be zim style land grabs/nationalising or is this another scaremongering tacts to try prevent discussion on these issues? your paranoid should not result in us not debating what needs to be debated wena you must sort out your paranoid (mental issues) seek professional help.
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"dude f*ck off seriously.." are we back to personal insults? you shld warn me so I can meet you half way, as you know I always rise to the challenge and deliver satisfactorily. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
Actually, ABI isn't invested in Zim, they simply market there Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
As for Britain and the USA..................they have pulled the plug on Zim, and had every right to do so......................as a investor,
------------------------------------I have not said nor alluded to that they didn't' have that right all I was saying you (wena) did not need a degree in economics to see Zim economy you keep saying hasn't got enough investors (investor confidence) was DELIBERATELY being suffocated by the culprits mentioned above they used this tact in Cuba, and Argentina, but now as they are out of the economic game more so the UK as its hitting its second recession, they will come crawling to Africa for her resources in the same way that former colonisers of Angola are being bailed out by Angola, Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
Zimbabwe defaulted on its debts in 1999
It only made sense the for US to bar anymore loans to Mugabe until reforms were put in place.
Greece has had to suffer many reforms including a change in government to get emergency loans to avoid bankruptcy.
And if you understood basic laws of money markets, and the loss of production by farms & money printing caused hyper inflation, you would understand that Cheeky Uncle Bob has himself to blame. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
Actually, ABI isn't invested in Zim, they simply market there - speaking in tongues are we? Coca-cola which (according to you) is owned by ABI is an investor in Zim or no? I know that your h@te for Bob make you guys irrational when speaking about Zim economy but it is a fact that Coca cola which is a multinational has businesses in Zim, Zim regime will draw tax from this business as part of the norm gov practice, what is so hard for you to accept that Zim is investable. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
Zimbabwe defaulted on its debts in 1999
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I am not arguing legitimacy or illegitimate Zim debt default, what I saying and it should be clear for you to understand, its economy rightly or wrongly was suffocated by the USA and UK hence you today argue that they haven't got big enough investments.
"It only made sense the for US to bar anymore loans to Mugabe until reforms were put in place.." No it did make sense at all that they will gang up (economically) against a developing country, anyway that is all now besides the point, their interference in others affairs have left them vulnerable to all kinds of extremism. I wish they had ability and common sense to learn from their gigantic Iraq and other mistakes alas they remain ontamo lukhuni!
"Greece has had to suffer many reforms including a change in government to get emergency loans to avoid bankruptcy.." in the end they are bankrupt and waiting on the EU rescue package, so what's your point vele?
"And if you understood basic laws of money markets, and the loss of production by farms & money printing caused hyper inflation, you would understand that Cheeky Uncle Bob has himself to blame" this is the typical arrogance of ppl like yourself putting others in awkward position and blame them for it, Thixo bob yenza la land reform even strong!!!. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
Coke in Zim was originally owned by an American firm (Atlanta something) but stopped producing there in 2008 / 2009. ABI took over the marketing there. They don't produce in Zim but market there. Its like saying that Lever Brothers is 'investing' in your house because you purchase Sunlight Liquid. Buying the product is not the same as having a manufacturing plant in your livingroom. Report Abuse
Somaartekeit
"dude f*ck off seriously.." are we back to personal insults? you shld warn me so I can meet you half way, as you know I always rise to the challenge and deliver satisfactorily.
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@The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"dude f*ck off seriously.." are we back to personal insults? you shld warn me so I can meet you half way, as you know I always rise to the challenge and deliver satisfactorily.
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"telling you to f*ck off is not an insult.."
okay then go f@k yourself then, and that's a complement!
Zimbabwe suffocated its own economy with failed policies. It chased investment away, driving its GDP to be as low as it is today.
When a country defaults on its debt, you cannot simply carry on giving it more debt unless that country has reforms to will allow it to pay off its debt in the future.
Greece has to go through reforms to recieve funds, Zimbabwe needed to do the same, but chose to stay bankrupt and now you want to pin the blame on the Brits?
We are not talking about Iraq
The typical stupidity from people like you who do know how the money markets work makes it impossible to debate at all
Zimbabwe suffocated its own economy with failed policies.
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this is your belief can we agree to disagree? for the rest I am tired so you can talk I whilst am taking a nap:-) wake me up when you are finished. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
UK as its hitting its second recession, they will come crawling to Africa for her resources in the same way that former colonisers of Angola are being bailed out by Angola,
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Zimbabwe was in a recession in 2000 - 2009, South Africa went into recession in 2009........yet both these countries are so well endowed with natural resources..................When will you African's learn that your natural resources are sooooooooo overrated! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
Zimbabwe suffocated its own economy with failed policies.
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this is your belief can we agree to disagree? for the rest I am tired so you can talk I whilst am taking a nap:-) wake me up when you are finished.
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i dont need to agree with me, i never once asked you to, infact i didnt even ask you to comment on any of my comments...........but clearly my comments really stick a pin through that air head of yours. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
just for hte records Rothschilds have you noticed that its you and MC arguing against nationalisation? you realise that you in the minority? so why shld everyone else bow to your narrow views? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
UK as its hitting its second recession, they will come crawling to Africa for her resources in the same way that former colonisers of Angola are being bailed out by Angola,
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And when Angola runs out of oil, then what? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
@somertakeit nationalisation, mines , Zimbabwe.....health ummm we dont want to open a can of worms when we pop the little word diamonds into the list do we?
umm because those Anglo workers really dont want to be involved there I promise..... Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Zimbabwe was in a recession in 2000 - 2009, South Africa went into recession in 2009........yet both these countries are so well endowed with natural resources..................When will you African's learn that your natural resources are sooooooooo overrated" Whoosh my point went over the tank resting on your shoulders, I said UK is in second term recession since Sunday per CNN they had not recovered frm the prev bout, this means they will go further down on developed economic scales at the beginning of the year they were surpassed by the Brazilians putting them UK in 7th place now this really it doesn't look good for them, and in addition to this Scotland want to be independent and so is N.ireland, plus they can't loot the world anymore to further their nests, this tells me that they are not going to recover, pliz get the picture mr diploma, the mere fact you have to compare developing economy to a supposed developed economy leads me to concl that your economic degree was handed out to you. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
:) You forgot Mambaaai and there is just you left on the other side of the fence. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
just for hte records Rothschilds have you noticed that its you and MC arguing against nationalisation? you realise that you in the minority? so why shld everyone else bow to your narrow views?
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Never said i opposed nationalization.
If we can get a model similar to Norway or even partnerships that we see in Germany and France, then im actually for Nationalization.
There, i have given you my view, now leave me alone, you can go debate with "the majority" in peace. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"And when Angola runs out of oil, then what?" trust you to find scare crows everywhere, I said right this minute Angola is bailing out Portugal, and if GB was nice to its former colonies maybe we just might feel sorry for them and bail them out, but they must humble themselves first. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
:) You forgot Mambaaai and there is just you left on the other side of the fence.
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even with him on board you are still on the minority lol my take is that Mumbai is Patrice Motsepe, lol he is protecting his interests at which point he is the minority of the minority, lol Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"There, i have given you my view, now leave me alone, you can go debate with "the majority" in peace" when we do that you minorities interfere by bringing your paranoid in the debate and trying to pass this facts. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
I never compared any economies...............Im simply saying, all countries go through booms and recessions.............Brazil not too long ago suffered many years of depression during the South American financial crisis. Just like Zimbabwe with all its resources suffered a massive blow for 9 years. England has got the Euro crisis on its shoulders as majority of UK exports go to Europe, so when Europe recovers, the UK will also recover.
Indeed, Brazil overtook the UK in the size of economy but Brazil needs to be 6x larger than the UK economy in order to achieve same GDP per capita as the British. And such growth would require decades at current growth rates and we all know current growth rates do not stay the same forever.
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"And when Angola runs out of oil, then what?" trust you to find scare crows everywhere, I said right this minute Angola is bailing out Portugal, and if GB was nice to its former colonies maybe we just might feel sorry for them and bail them out, but they must humble themselves first.
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And how much is Angola giving Portugal? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"There, i have given you my view, now leave me alone, you can go debate with "the majority" in peace" when we do that you minorities interfere by bringing your paranoid in the debate and trying to pass this facts.
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You the one who seems to be paranoid mate Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
somaartakeit just looking around the world where this has been done before.....
people are people and there are rich , poor and prisons in all countries...
@mambaaai
somaartakeit just looking around the world where this has been done before.....
people are people and there are rich , poor and prisons in all countries...
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Mambaai all I am saying is that we shld not close our options, we shd adopt an open approach suggestions not down right shut the ideas out cause we claim they didnt' work elsewhere. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
somaar just take it
i really believe to get the j0b done efficiently for the w3alth to be realised the investor (the one who makes it w0rk) must put his m0ney where his m0uth is and then he will make it w0rk...otherwise , end up with government employee types picking their n0se all day...and a few f@t guys in purple suits...with wabenzi. and that depends completely on your alighnment with THE PARTY and that my friend is not democracy.....and the whole thing changes from serving the people to a cadre self serving fest.......and that is not the best for the majority
its obvious, that movie has played itself out like that many times before in the world....
so regarding your Patrice Motsepe comment its either a type like him who has a vested interst in making it work its that or a f@t zooma nephew type..... and now we know why juju tried to hang in there Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
BOSS-KEKE
KWAAAAALWAAAAAAAAAAAAALWAAAAAAAAAAA
UNTIL WE GET BENT BY THE ANC AND SHAFTED
WHILE THEY BENEFIT FROM RAIDING THE MINES BECOMING BILLIONAIRES WE WILL STILL SUFFER
THE WORDS THEY SAY IS JUST WOOL OVER YOUR EYES
WE WONT SEE A CENT FROM NATIONALISATION, ANC IS DESTINED TO RUIN OUR COUNTRY Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
boss - keke agreed..... if these guys proved they were trust worthy.... ok it might work.... but eish...its all blah blah blah no delivery and lots and lots too many evidences of pigs in the trough Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
somaartakeit
In all fairness, if a square wheel didn't work anywhere else in the world, the chances of it suddenly being the most logical shape for SA is unlikely at the very least. Learning from the mistakes of others is never a waste of time.
I still feel that everyone is focusing on the wrong point. The mines are not what we should be wanting, it is the minerals from those mines that we should be wanting. Instead of selling the minerals off at bargain basement prices, we should be working the minerals here and selling the finished products to the rest of the world. That will create jobs, extra revenue for the country and a chance for economic freedom for everyone - not just the politically affiliated few Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Anyways everyone, im off, thanks for the debate Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"Brazil not too long ago suffered many years of depression during the South American financial crisis" Yet Brazil surpassed GB for 6th spot on world big economies, and you know the scary part is that they think some miracle will transform their economy, cause all their lives they have been ruthlessly taking from others to build their nest, now they have no influence not in the EU not in Africa or its former colonies, hence I said they must nice to uncle Bob maybe he will let them come back in...lol
"Just like Zimbabwe with all its resources suffered a massive blow for 9 years..." this was man made by British and US and alliance partners and maybe also Bob a little bit.
"England has got the Euro crisis on its shoulders...." hahahahahahahaaaaaaa now that is so funny, did you come up with this all by yourself? the EU are looking fwd to the day UK removes itself from the EU they are considered passangers and non contributors on the EU platform, even Scotland want out of this liaison. SO please don't make it out as if EU's economy depends on the UK cause really Germans, Austrians, Poland whose ecnomies have been growing will be mad at you if you they hear you saying this silly British talk.
MommaC agreed.... we import chains back from Italy made with our gold....at leasst the gold goes out at the world market prices...diamonds we largley w0rk the prices it is said....
I still feel that everyone is focusing on the wrong point. The mines are not what we should be wanting, it is the minerals from those mines that we should be wanting. Instead of selling the minerals off at bargain basement prices, we should be working the minerals here and selling the finished products to the rest of the world. That will create jobs, extra revenue for the country and a chance for economic freedom for everyone - not just the politically affiliated few
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now you're talking... Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
mambaaai
MC
But too true we need factories here producing finished products because thats where the r3al w3alth is....and the biggest v0lume of j0bs....
and like our rooibos tea our clever little minority brothers spoke to their br0thers and sisters in europe and now is a booming trade s3lling to them...
like our grape production they did the same turned it into wine....
Somaartakeit problems are all racial
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You are slandering my good name all this bcoz I disagree with your views on Zim, don't be childish mlungu shame. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
btw Mambaai Patrice is not trying to make it work, he is buttering his slice of the bread that is why he donates to the anc, he want them to let him alone have control of the mines (by extension we@lth) generated from such, all this money he is wasting on politicians shld be channeled towards social development projects, at least he wld be making a real investment that will benefit this coutnry in the long run, damn he cld like Ophrah Winfrey did, build a school or technical college to help our youth, but no he wants to give it to the ppl who already have the money,and you know when I see that, I want to shout loud and say nationalise that mine. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
mambaaai
Do you know that we sel1 fishing rights to China and tin to China and then import tinned fish from China? How daft is that?
A number of years ago there was a company called Commargue in Harrismith. They made those big shiipping containers. A rival company opened up in India and Commargue went bang. The reason was because India gets OUR metal cheeaper than we do. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
I never said the EU depends on England you idiot, i said the UK is in recession because its exports have been hit by the Euro crisis and their financial services are still struggling from the Financial crisis that started on Wall Street.
Brazil's population is 4x greater than the UK, it only makes sense that the economy would of eventually surpassed the UK, France and will surpass Germany as well. It has to do with population. But does this make Brazil and its massive population that still for many decades will live in war zone ghettos better off than any of these Europeans, nope!
Christ you really are a airhead.
Im still waiting to hear from you, how much did Angola give to Portugal?
Im also waiting for your mad theory on how the US and the UK destroyed the Zimbabwean economy. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
The-Rothschilds
She is normally quite a lot less aggressively racial about stuff but I think you bring out the worst in her :)
A bit like Sinu and Jaja. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
MommaC
Somaartakeit problems are all racial
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You are slandering my good name all this bcoz I disagree with your views on Zim, don't be childish mlungu shame.
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haha the white man kicked your a55 in Africa and now you are as bitter as can be. Well im very sorry that the white people did this to you, can you accept my apology on behalf of them? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
MommaC
The-Rothschilds
She is normally quite a lot less aggressively racial about stuff but I think you bring out the worst in her :)
A bit like Sinu and Jaja.
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Somaartakeit and Meercat-is-a-cave-beast the same person? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
The-Rothschilds
Oh HELL NO. Crazy Rorri is someone completely different.
Somaartakeit was also on Times back then but was under a different name - I'll let the Princess tell you what her handle was if she desires. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@Rothschild you can google how much Angola loaned to portugal but what I know is that they are helping them out, hence they haven't asked for the EU bail out like Spain/Greece for instance.
The UK is not in crisis bcoz of the EU they are in crisis cause amongst others they overspent on military as a direct result of their obsession to overpower and conquer the world violently, unfortunately non of these conquests bring money home, and that the UK citizens live beyond their means and not servicing their bank debts such as bonds and other consumable, and London is the main money laundering capital of the West, how long did you think they will remain in business for?
On Brazil they adopted under president Lula good policies which helped their economy to grow and surpass most emerging and soem developed economies, wish SA cld use its association with BRICS to grow our economy even more. Report Abuse
Rorri was beyond crazy - I did not agree with him on a lot of things, but today looking at guys like you I can imagine why guys like Rorri wld behave the way he did, damn he has to deal with the likes of you everyday, as I've said the arrogance of ppl is enough to turn anyone into a proper monster, cause you are not brign yourselves to be rational unless your butts are kicked to curb, so Rorri used full force round house kicking...lol Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
The-Rothschilds
Jirrie, you can say that again. The dude was completely barking.
Strangely enough, he turned out to be a very successful business man. Goes to show that crazy can be hidden Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
No, i want you to tell me how much did Angola give to Portugal?
I want to hear about Zimbabwe as well. (stop avoiding this question)
Money is laundered throughout the world.
Ofcourse the UK is in trouble because of the EU, UK factory production has dropped, exports have dropped...........the 2008 housing bumble has put a dent in UK house prices and house prices all around the world for that matter.........and many british consumers financed their spending through taking bonds on their homes because there was a belief that house prices would always rise and hence a bank would always recover the loan. With consumption & exports been sluggish and austerity measures hitting government spending, it only makes sense that the UK would be in recession.
Well he used to kick your backside from one end of the comments section to the other so I have no idea why he is now your hero. Maybe you just miss his perverted foul mouth?
Where am I being arrogant? Because I have an opinion on this that differs from yours? That isn't being arrogant - maybe opinionated but certainly not arrogant. You are just frustrated because you have not given any concrete facts that would show a benefit to the 'poor' if nationalisation was implemented. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
MommaC
Rorri was beyond crazy - I did not agree with him on a lot of things, but today looking at guys like you I can imagine why guys like Rorri wld behave the way he did, damn he has to deal with the likes of you everyday, as I've said the arrogance of ppl is enough to turn anyone into a proper monster, cause you are not brign yourselves to be rational unless your butts are kicked to curb, so Rorri used full force round house kicking...lol
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expressing your day in day out hatred for the British is not rational thinking or debate. Especially since half the nonsense you post on here is nothing more than Zeitgeist conspiracy theories.
My nickname Rothschild must itch you to the bone. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
MommaC
The-Rothschilds
Jirrie, you can say that again. The dude was completely barking.
Strangely enough, he turned out to be a very successful business man. Goes to show that crazy can be hidden
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I thought he worked at Standard Bank? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
16-12-1838
@ somaartakeit - I refer back to your opening statment "the ppl in Congo apparently got tired of waiting for the gov to force anglo to do the right thing, they've simply taken over the mining apparently some of the rebel groups are so organised they have machines and sk!lled ppl to operate them, anglo is standing breathless and contemplating what to do, in SA we are meek we get screwed and we say thank you b@@s"
- I can presume you have never visited the DRC, if you have you would certainly not be making these statements. Decades of w@r and c0rruption have ensured a total c0llapse of all local economy and infrastructure. Most rural areas are controlled by predat0ry militi@ (mostly sponsored by Burundi, Rwanda and Uganda - not Europe!) who then sell the raw materials to covert Ch1nese and Ind1an companies (off-shore). They f0rce the men through direct or indirect vi0lence to w0rk for less than pe@nuts, just enough to keep them alive. Their daughters and wives are then r@ped and phys1cally m@imed (hands ch0pped off mainly). Many miners per1sh through total lack of a safe w0rking environment, ie: cave-ins and exposure to t0xic or radi0active substances. The conditions and methods are b@rbaric and pre-historic.
So judging by the ever increasing level of c0rruption and klept0cracy in SA, as well as my own personal first hand experiences in the DRC and in other African countries less f0rtunate than us; I can categorically state that nationalisation in SA can only mean much w0rse conditions for the p0or in our country.
There are much better alternatives!!!!! Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
The-Rothschilds
He is an actuary. I guess he was with (wasn't it Absa?) the bank for a time or doing inhouse work for them but he has his own business now Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
16-12-1838
dont hold your breathe with Somaartakeit
This is the same person who wants us to follow the Zimbabwean route because Mugabe's style did not chase any investors away. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
The-Rothschilds
MommaC
The-Rothschilds
He is an actuary. I guess he was with (wasn't it Absa?) the bank for a time or doing inhouse work for them but he has his own business now
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Scary stuff that a lunatic like that is walking amongst us.................i guess his business partners are certainly not Jews and Negroes hahaha (no offense to any Negroes) Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@16-12-1838 I have made that comment analysing what happens if land reform/nationalisation is avoided that is not discussed and concluded upon so everyone knows where they stand, I have not said the economy there is booming as a result of mine grabs taking place there, I also made that point to highlight how Anglo has been reckless in its handling social development projects and I further said, if they continue with being this careless that scenario cld be repeated here, no where did I say this is to support that economy there is booming, I said its a risky situation which must nipped on the bud insteasd of beign avoided, so please don't tell me stuff I already know some of which are my issues which I have lobbied the AU to deal with human destruction in Congo and Sudan amongst others. Report Abuse
This is the same person who wants us to follow the Zimbabwean route because Mugabe's style did not chase any investors away.
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the only thing ppl like you are good at is twisting what's been said, nowhere did I say we must follow Zim land reform model, but you are h3ll bent on scandalising my name cause I have disagreements with you, that is not debatign that is mobbing, and you as an economy degreed person, you shld know better that won't win you or any one the day/argument, but facts will. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
MommaC
The-Rothschilds
LOL
Pretty much guaranteed !
Drive safe
I'm off too. Time to go make sure I don't get mafutu :) Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
The-Rothschilds
"expressing your day in day out hatred for the British is not rational thinking or debate.." I wldn't waste my energy h@ting the British cause really I have better things to do with my time
" Especially since half the nonsense you post on here is nothing more than Zeitgeist conspiracy theories" like you all of us are posting conspiracy theories based on the articles published, do you have a problem with opposing views to your beliefs/theories, its this b@@s mentality which makes guys like me to treat ppl like you with contempt!!.
"My nickname Rothschild must itch you to the bone" I don't give a damn abou your nickname it means nada to me and in the big scope of things, so stop flattering yourself. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
"Well he used to kick your backside from one end of the comments section to the other so I have no idea why he is now your hero...." there you go again puttign words in my mouth did I say he was a hero more than I say I cld understand why in some cases he behaved the way he did?
"Maybe you just miss his perverted foul mouth?" Actually I don't miss strangers, I didn't know the guy so hadn't enough time to accumulate feelings that cld result in me missing him or any of the ppl I interact with in the forum.
"Where am I being arrogant? Because I have an opinion on this that differs from yours? That isn't being arrogant - maybe opinionated but certainly not arrogant. You are just frustrated because you have not given any concrete facts that would show a benefit to the 'poor' if nationalisation was implemented"
we all confer our opinions on the basis of what's on the article and our understand of day to day SAn politics, it is not a fact that nationalisation will fail or succeed in SA cause no one can tell that for sure, its a concept worth debating, but you guys are paranoid abt it why? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
16-12-1838
@ somaartakeit
I am not here to argue my friend and I stand beside you when it comes to opening up the debate but IMO most of your argument is based on idealistic scenarios, you must appreciate that we need to be realistic and work within the confines of our history and current socio-political circumstances. It is also naive to believe we, as conscientious middle class S. Africans, can f1ght a head on b@ttle against the gre_ed of multi-national corporations and p0werful govts. Change is a slow process, even under the most ideal conditions and I know we both agree that conditions here in SA are less that ideal.
Isn't it better to w0rk towards a win/win situation with foreign investors and those who hold economic power locally, than to threaten with sticks and stones? We need to ensure co-existence with those who hold all the capital, educate and encourage them about their social responsibility. Ultimately to ensure that our youth and natural resources are nurtured and protected, not expl0ited. We cannot do this if we have a corrupt self-serving govt at the helm. We need unselfish and responsible leaders first and foremost, otherwise all talk of uplifting the p0or will be just hot air!
I sincerely commend you on lobbying the AU regarding the human attr0cities on our beloved continent, Africa needs more people like you. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@16-12-1838 I really appreciate how much it must have taken you to type this message to me and you still fail to see the point that I was making, that Anglo is repeating same mistakes it made in Congo, by falling behind on social development projects RESPONSIBILITY, which resulted in rebels there taking over some of the mines, this is not an idea of mine but a reality happening in Congo which threatens to ruin their business interests there,
I also of firm belief that IF investors like Anglo don't do right by the ppl in teh communities where they are mining here at home, there is a possibility that these ppl will revolt against them, so why not curtail this before it happens by addressing social development programms where they are operating, so that everyone wins, cause as things stand the ones on the losing side, will align themselves with rougue politicians shouting 'nationalisation' cause THEY not ME don't know that these poltiicians are doing this for political expedience.
I have further said, as a nation, we shld trust in ourselves and open a discussion on these major issues, that way we are calling the bluff of guys like Mathale and other rougues and in the process we empower ourselves, so we know what must be done, and urge our leaders in that direction, why do we instead allow ourselves to be held to ransom by radical politicians who are hijackign our issues? has nothing been learnt in Zim scenario that the ppl left teh land reform issue too late and Mugabe grabbed it to keep himself in power longer than he needed to? Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
I also said we have lost a lot of time the ppl are getting edgy when it comes to deliverance of issues, so how likely it is in SA that we will find ourselves in the situation we could have avoided just by engaging one another openly and honesty iro land reform/nationalisation, since this issues came to public platform they have been used by anc politicians to play power games amongst themselves so I say its high time that ordinary SAns are pro-active and take this debate to another level and finally concl the way forward, but some especially minority seem to have this irrational fear to discuss issues, and it is this fear that is holding the progress, cause really we shouldn't be held to ransom by rougue politicians who want to abuse our issues for self interests,
I don't believe that both Malema or Mathale or even Zuma have ppl's interests to heart they are making all these grandstanding remarks for their p!ssing contests, unfortunately for SA to some these are real issues, so I say lets take the power and get this ball rolling, and the ppl of SA must draft a road map as to where we go with these projects, cause I don't want us to be at the mercy of this politicians, I really don't, what I want to see is that they are delivering servides, timeously and consistently not ONLY during electioneering year. I want them to understand that they are accountable to the ppl and that they are not entitled to lead us it is a privilege for them to given this opportunity. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
16-12-1838
@ somaartakeit
You are right, I'm really sorry. I now understand the point you were making and I wholeheartedly agree. I certainly do not support what Anglo and companies like them are doing, they have to provide much more in the way of social developments both here and further North. It is inexcusable that these multi-nationals can get away with so much and pr0fit so highly off the suffer1ng of the p0werless.
I like your thinking - by bypassing all the jackals in politics and entering into debate with each other, without the interference of those with alterior motives, we can definitely emp0wer ourselves for the good of all in SA. But how do we start this with so much in_security and mistru$t of one another?
We have centuries of bad history to overcome. How do we convince our respective ethnic groups to overcome their fe@rs, to put our differences aside when we are surrounded by misunder$tanding and h@tred? The we@lth divide is not unique to Africa either, it would be fantastic if we could develop a new socio-political model that is transferable globally (this planet needs that!) - unfortunately us humans are not known for our fairness and compassion...and with a rapidly growing global population, gre_ed induced competition is only going to get much fiercer.
You see, you and I are not too different from one another ;)
"Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government controlled Iscor? Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government established Foskor in Phalaborwa? Why did the investors not leave when President Robert Mugabe implemented his economic policies," he asked.
He added: "They cannot leave because they want our chrome, they want our platinum and they want our gold."
Mathale said nationalising the mines would ensure the freedom that was achieved by Azanians..
"Applause" "Applause"... Well sead my brother very well sead... :) And in your face!!! to all the short sighted and Astonishingly ignorant!! neo colonialist white supremacist supporters out there. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
16-12-1838
@ Osirus
Ever heard of Aurora mine?
No! ...then look it up..
A perfect example of how nationalising mines will NOT ensure your economic free_dom.
Without trying to be too short sighted and astonishingly ignorant...Good Luck in the queue behind the neo colonialist white supremacist UN Aid truck.
Don't be deluded brother, only your own hard work will ensure any form of economic freedom!
@16-12-1838 the ONLY thing (IMO) to help us overcome mistrust and get with the pressing issues needing to be debated and put to rest is for those spearheading this to be honest and be committed to seek resolution that is fair for all involved, this is possible if we are all interesting to sustaining so called fr33dom gained in 1994 and empower our ppl,
We must not let fear demobilising us from moving forward with the development plan/strategy, of course there will always be those h3ll bent on destabilising the process cause they are benefiting from our disunity/mistrust of one another they are exploiting these fears to further divide us, whilst we can never be friends and lovey dovey but surely we can all work together for a better SA for us ALL.
My friend I have very fundamental and to a large degree grave disagreements with the anc regime, but h3ll, if they can show a little bit of commitment to work for the ppl instead of self service, I will wholeheartedly work together with them to achieve this goal. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
@16-12-1838 btw its interesting that you bring the example of Aurora into the picture, look my friend, the 700+ families disempowered by the Aurora corrupt glut are prolly amongst those calling for this nationalisatino these are the very ppl the Mathales are appealing to, God help us if these ppl are desperate enough they will then be ripe for exploitation (power games) which is why I say, more than ever it is imperative that we get this elephant in the room out, and openly discuss the status of land reform as well as nationalization,
But what must not happen is use Aurora as a scare tactic against nationalisation, cause Aurora is not being nationalised it had private owners namely, zuma nephew and mandela grandson they made the f@kup, and we must be confident in ourselves to call them to order without fear or favouring the tribes they come from or social status of the families they come from.
BTW you had not reason to apologise, cause you haven't offended me:-), I took your comment on my stride, I also took on my stride that as this land reform and nationalisation are emotive, tempers are bound to raise above sometimes boiling point, so I am big woman, I can handle this stuff, cause all that I want is for us to get to the bottom of things, that way we can never be held to ransom by crook politicians, most importantly we must be in a position where majority own at least 51% of our national resources, this is normal and reasonable expectation. I know that Indonesia is one of the countries which has this process and they like Nigeria are poised to join upcoming super powers. Report Abuse
May 2, 2012
somaartakeit
rothschilds I thought this might interest you, cause it conjures up with what i was saying abt Angola bailing out its former coloniser, of course you didnt' believe me cause you always think the worse of Africa.
h t t p://www.slate.com/blogs/the_reckoning/2011/11/23/portugal_begs_former_colony_angola_for_a_bailout_.html Report Abuse
Why did the investors not leave when President Robert Mugabe implemented his economic policies," he asked!!!!!!!!!OH MY GOD
In which world in this man living?
He thinks Zimbabwe is an good example of economic properity
That is why he nothing wrongwhen he runs down the provinces finances Report Abuse
May 3, 2012
mambaaai
somaartakeit... what do you believe are the practical differences are between the current model relating to mines and what would be different if the mine were nationalised. in what ways would it benifit the masses of people? Report Abuse
May 3, 2012
mambaaai
somaartakeit and then in practical terms if the mines were nationalised they would suffer from all the inefficiencies that happen in governemnt departments people sent home for deisciplinary stuff and never being fired , this cant happen in a pvt company because it would lead towards bankruptcy....and etc Report Abuse
May 7, 2012
STEILOOP
vina Mathale and Juju viva. i am supporting u guyz 100%. Report Abuse
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Comments
somaartakeit
If angloamerican think its acceptable to pay 2mil as a settlement to the community which was displaced then I can understand where those calling for nationalisation of mines come from, it seem these ppl like anglo have learnt no lessons frm mistakes committed in Zim by pulling a fast one on the ppl exploiting their being naive, anyway Anglo has more k@k coming on its way, the ppl in Congo apparently got tired of waiting for the gov to force anglo to do the right thing, they've simply taken over the mining apparently some of the rebel groups are so organised they have machines and sk!lled ppl to operate them, anglo is standing breathless and contemplating what to do, in SA we are meek we get screwed and we say thank you b@@s.Report Abuse
MommaC
..... and people voted this guy in? Doesn't say much for the intellectual capacity of LimpopoReport Abuse
MommaC
somaartakeitI clarified that at the time. Previous reports said that the 2million was for restitution and Anglo will be paying rent to them every month as well as building facilities and incorporating the surrounding communities (including the claimants) into their work programmes
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somaartakeit
Yes I saw that, but both you and I know that's peanuts, so this is another issue we disagree on, Anglo exploited our ppl and that strengths the calls for nationalisation or somaar grab a mine like its done in Congo, cause if our ppl are not benefiting from our minerals no outsiders shld should,Report Abuse
somaartakeit
You also explained MC abt land reform (against) it, and claiming there is not enough land, if there is not enough land, then the gov must make it happen, slice up private mines and 51% be given to the marginalised farm labourers, they are also entitled to benefit to the spoils, the gov for 18yrs+ has been trying to p@ssyfooty around burning issues, and as a result they have lost 18yrs do we really expect the ppl waiting for this issue to be address to wait for ever for justice to finally be effected, its insensitive MC, the sml percentage of the rich can not hold rest of the ppl to ransom using our national resources.Report Abuse
1tsotsi
MommaC..... and people voted this guy in? Doesn't say much for the intellectual capacity of Limpopo
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But isnt what his saying true? I wonder why people can be so blind to see the facts, is it coz of your dislike of the man that even when he tells the truth your rubbish it?
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Catswhiskers
Yes, that's why Zim.babwe is investigat.ing how their people are being tre.ated by the Ch!nese!
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1tsotsi
sowetan this is an old article, why always recycle news?Report Abuse
KatakataEmaotoAditshepe
Ther's no move would chase investors away here lona man.Report Abuse
somaartakeit
So then katakata have you lost that much faith in yourself as an African child that you believe that allowing these ppl to exploit our resources is the only way to keep them here? you know the gov who really have national pride in tact liek the ones in Indonesia (Bali) the locals own 51% stake on all national resources such as land, in Africa we bend over and get screwed till there are rebels to save the day, why does it always have to be like that, why can't we just get leaders to negotiate in our best interests for a change?when you say the investors will be chased away if there is nationalisation since they fail to use 18yrs window opportunity to empower (economically) communities from which the land they are mining was forcefully taken from? come on grow a pair will you and fight for this country and fight for justice and fair distribution of resources.
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MommaC
somaartakeitSo the best thing for the people of SA is to have tiny pieces of a half baked pie instead of being given the recipe to make their own pie? You don't have a very high opinion of our people, do you.
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MommaC
1tsotsiWhat has he said that is true?
China was holding the apartheid government up. If China hadn't been paying a forex to Iscor in breach of the sanctions, then apartheid would have fallen sooner. The sods still get our steel at lower prices than our own manufacturers can get it locally
Zim isn't exactly a shinning example of investor confidence
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kgomotosku
Im worried at the Mathale and his cabal in Limpopo are running that province as if its independent of SA. Its as if theres a Limpopo League that talks outside the ANC....This man is hellbent on defying the ANC to please the disposed Malema.@ MommaC i agreee to disagree.This says much about the intellectual capacity of Mathale but not of Limpopo..if JZ F...UP, this does not mean ZULULANDs intellect has dwindled or does it?
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Magwazambawula
The love of money,greedy and lack of respect of the poeple you are leading will destroy you.Mathale must be removed as the Premier of Limpopo unless ANC will lose support in Limpopo.Mathale, what do you mean when you say why investors did not leave when Mugabe implement his economic policies?Poeple of Zim are suffering of hunger,shortage of fuel and the economy of Zim has collapsed since he implemented that policy and every day many Zim poeple are coming to SA looking for better life because of that Mugabe of yours.You do not have the interest of improving the lives of the people at heart but only you.I am not going to vote if you are still leading the ANC Mr Mathale.Report Abuse
mambaaai
@somaartakeit and when we look at the e toll fiasco... South Africa could have built and run such a system creating local jobs keeping the profits here in South Africa... and now the profits being made from our roads which we own, go to Austria.....If you want a stake in the Anglo mines just get some shares....its available to you. the mine equipment and infrastructure still belongs to Anglo and the mineral rights still belong to the country and the goverment can charge any kind of tax any ammount of tax they want at any time.... but at least the mine is run by proper people not cronies and cadres
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
So the best thing for the people of SA is to have tiny pieces of a half baked pie instead of being given the recipe to make their own pie? You don't have a very high opinion of our people, do you.
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the problem now MC its tiny pieces of the politically connected who are benefiting from said pie, I also think its unfair that some of us are watching whilst others are eating, if this pie was divided fairly then I wld have no problem with that,
MC you are a smart woman, please understand that us middle class ppl can not expect to ride on the shoulders of those who are being wronged and expect that our national relations will not be damaged by this, you and I are in a position to call for fair division of this pie (everyone is talking about) I haven't seen evidence of it, I don't know about you, but I say if there is a pie it must be shared fairly amongst us (the ppl).
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somaartakeit
@mambaaaiI agree with you that all jobs created and revenue made must first and above all benefit SAns, otherwise this regime will never make good on its promise of a better life for all.
I have not read much on this e-tolling-thievery and who benefits but if profits are xploited by external ppl then I am dead against that, Austria claims to not have colonised anyone, which is true, but if they come to milk Africa then they are not doing anything different to what eg the King of Belgium did in Congo and other colonialists, damn these Europeans is there no way for them to make their nests comfortable without exploiting someone in developing countries?
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MommaC
somaartakeit,That cannot work in the real world. Communism is a beautiful concept but logistically impossible.
Remember the story of the ant and the grasshopper? Now what would the motiivation be for the ants to do so much work if they know that the grasshopper (who does nothing all summer) will just get most of what the ant has worked for? Given half an opportunity, none of us would work and none of us would go into debt to study. Therein lies the fatal flaw in the communist ideal. If I can have the same rewards for doing a tenth of the work then it stands to reason that human nature will win out and everyone will opt for doing the least amount possible.
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somaartakeit
As for those who argue that if there is nationalisation investors will leave, let them leave, fi their being here depends on the ruthlessly exploiting our ppl, I for one don't want any business partners who think that a relationship should be based on them dictating the rules of the game,Now SAns I know this is an emotional issue for most of us, but let us move away a bit from our personal scenario and look to Argentina they have nationalised, Spain huffed and puffed, China stepped into the picture as well, so what I am saying, when one exploiter leaves he takes with him losses, not the mine, let us stead fast for a change and kick out exploitative investors, it shouldn't be us who are on our knees it is them who want to do business with us, and they must do that on our terms, that are geared towards ensuring no SAn will be exploited in the process of them extracting those minerals, Nigerians guys are fully incharge of their country's resources, do they look like they are dying to you? we shall survive if these exploiters leave our shores,
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Papage
Who said Malema's voice is silenced?Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@Magwazambawula LoL hey lady let me correct you on the mistake you are making cause you have allowed yourself to be mislead by British alligned media, Zimbos are running away from BRUT of ZANU-PF which has turned Zim into a police state, that has been the case for the past 20yrs +this ploy that investors wld run away is from the ppl who have a low self esteem and no confidence that they have come be comfortable with being treated as slaves by the xploiters of our national resources.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit,
"That cannot work in the real world" We first must define what the real world means?
" Communism is a beautiful concept but logistically impossible" I am tired of this 'communism' scare tactic, the ppl running those mines had ample time to do right by the ppl they whom they exploit, they have failed and have left us with a last resort (nationalisation).
"Remember the story of the ant and the grasshopper?" there are no ants and grasshoppers in this instance just the ppl who think they are entitled to exploit, when challenged call others grasshoppers and communists, you must bare in mind that, a man who has nothing to lose has no reason to respect the rules which were set out to suppress him.
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somaartakeit
This is an interesting moment in the history of the ANC that it is the anc comrades calling for nationalisation and land reform and gettign the nation talking, we are heading for interesting times indeed, those of you who don't know the history of the anc, natioalisation and land reform was the core basis of their struggle for liberation hence the fr33dom charter, the only problem is that instead of the comrades implement this after the take over they were too pre-occupied with looting, but for my part I welcome these debates, cause then if we get the ball rolling no one can hold us to ransom,Report Abuse
mambaaai
@ somaartakeitregarding Astria and colonising....umm the Austrohungarian empire all over europe... the fact of the matter is that kinda stuff has been happening all over the world since forever... if there is anything the minority brothers did here is put all the tribes under one umbrella SA otherwise and the eastern cape guys would be dying like in ethiopia etc. and without our clever little De beers team for example diamonds would have the same value as tigers eye or something like that..did you know that Tanzinite is more rare than diamond .... and where is its price. the debeers guys created value for us and our land...and had we not chased them away to relocate to the england we would have had the benefit of the profits in SA
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MommaC
somaartakeitWhat you are calling for is pure communism. You then tell me that it is just a scare tactic and that old fables are irrelevant?
The real world has fat Zuma nephews and hungry Sipos in it. It isn't made up of Desmond Tutu clones. Human nature is lazy and full of avarice. THAT is reality. Not the fictional world of fairies and huggy bears you imagine it to be.
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somaartakeit
@MC, look at this from the perspective of a have nothing and desperate, and tell me if htey can if they have communism or socialism etc all that is interesting for them is a vehicle that will lead them to prosperity and there is no reason this regime has failed more than they are incompetent, so what right do we (middle class) to say to the downtroddens, look guys its not in the interests fo the rich and middle class to nationalise if these guys believe that's their only salvation from poverty? The rich and the middle class have deserted the issues of the masses, so why must they be inspired to hold ship SA with you and me on board, whilst there are no benefits for them?Report Abuse
MommaC
somaartakeit.... because it is not in their best interests either.
Grubbing in the soil for minerals like a bunch of worms is not going to help anyone. The real money is in the actual products which are manufactured.
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somaartakeit
@Mambaai when it comes to Africa Austrians will vehemently argue that they didn't colonised hence they say, there is no reason for the EU to dictate to them abt affording a refugee for war torn African refugees, this is a hot debate actually as you might be aware that there is grown trend of right wing parties since recession....Yes all the other issues yuo mentioned abt adding value to our minerals, but for whose benefit?
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1tsotsi
MommaC1tsotsi
What has he said that is true?
China was holding the apartheid government up. If China hadn't been paying a forex to Iscor in breach of the sanctions, then apartheid would have fallen sooner. The sods still get our steel at lower prices than our own manufacturers can get it locally
Zim isn't exactly a shinning example of investor confidence
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The questions is why didnt the investors leave South african during the B.rutal apartheid government? Thats the question you should be able to answer, the are the investors and they want our minerals, if they want to leave the door is open other inverstors who are willing to listen to us, the owners of the minerals will come and invest. We cant be hold into ranson by the so-called economics trying to put fear in our peoples minds by saying we will chase the invertsors are, even now with those investors, our people are not benefiting, so its time we change how the economy operates, by nationalising.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
".... because it is not in their best interests either" LoL so you know what's in their best interest lol ooh you're so cute when you say these things.
"Grubbing in the soil for minerals like a bunch of worms is not going to help anyone" No one suggests that, but eventually that is what will happen if these companies mining there fail to facilitate community development social projects, in fact it is ruthless of them to not want to do this, considering all the gains everyone will benefit from.
"The real money is in the actual products which are manufactured" this money benefits who MC? cause this nationalisation wld not even be an issue if resources were shared through community development projects, not throwing around peanuts (2mil) as a settlement to a community which has legitimate claim to the land being mined.
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mambaaai
how has China helped with poverty...they have 200 million new people per year, looking for jobs 5 times our entire population... simple they dont have minimum wages which have effectivey blocked a whole lot of people from getting A job and minimum wages causes the little companies to be able to only employ a certain number of people ....along with l@bour laws, has contibuted to an environment for labour brokers to grow...we have fr33dom so, if we are unhappy with a job...we are fr33 to move...Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@MommaC1tsotsi
"Zim isn't exactly a shinning example of investor confidence ..." for some Eurpean countries but China are investing in Zim, I am not saying they are the best of investors they cld attract but my argument is that, what is poison for you is a medicine for the other person, besides MC Europe now has not options left (due to this fin crisis engulfing Eurozone) cause their wea lth has amassed so far has been derived from exploiting poor nations, did you know that England has fallen once again into recession? and Spain has even more problems some SPanish youth said they want to migrate to other countries to seek job opportunities, go figure MC the West is not what it once was....
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MommaC
1tsotsiA lot of investors did leave during sanctions. That is why the greatest number of mineral licences have been granted since the end of apartheid.
Keep very firmly in mind that most of the large mining houses are public entities. Our very own PIC holds vast shares in Anglo American as does a lot of our other local investment houses. Nationalise the mine and you effectively steal the pensions of the average worker.
It is about a lot more than just nationalising a mine. It is about security. We already heard the YL in Cape Town shouting to 'nationalise' the wine industry. What will be next? All pizza parlours will have their cheese nationalised? Once one thing is stolen, the security of all things becomes suspect. No investor will bring their money into a country which cannot ensure that it will not be 'nationalised',
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somaartakeit
@Mambaai China is confirmed as the new super power and its economy grew by 7% the last time I checked, even rich countries have its poor Chi na is no different to eg the USA's bronx dwellers and the UK/Fra nce/Bel gium slumsand that China is the new super power means that all its interests overseas incl Africa/Eu rope will employ mainly Chin ese, did you know that Chi na is the most taught language now in the West? ask yourself why? Euro parents don't want their kids to be left out in the Chi na economic boom, whilst WEs tern economies are under severe strain.
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MommaC
somaartakeit@MommaC
somaartakeit
LoL so you know what's in their best interest lol ooh you're so cute when you say these things
..... Its called basic economics and has been proven by others - not me.
No one suggests that, but eventually that is what will happen if these companies mining there fail to facilitate community development social projects, in fact it is ruthless of them to not want to do this, considering all the gains everyone will benefit from.
...... Do you know what social development projects are being done and do you know that it is part of the mineral rights licence which the Dept is not doing anything to enforce?
this money benefits who MC? cause this nationalisation wld not even be an issue if resources were shared through community development projects, not throwing around peanuts (2mil) as a settlement to a community which has legitimate claim to the land being mined.
,..... At the moment the money is benefiting China, India and other eastern countries the most.
...... The community still owns the land that is being mined - that is why they will be getting rent every month for it along with a whole bunch of community development projects
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somaartakeit
MommaCsomaartakeit
@MommaC
somaartakeit
"..... At the moment the money is benefiting China, India and other eastern countries the most" only due to the fact that our cabinet ministers are bribable that is why I said, its refreshing that nationalisation debate has been started within the anc, cause this is changing politics of this regime as we know it, cause even they must realised that its the politically connected who are benefiting and their friends.. what is to me interesting is that the ppl at grassroots are standing up for themselves FINALLY.
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mambaaai
@somaartakeit 10;4 on the superpower stuff....any idea who owns lots maybe most of our vanadim and ferrochrome mines, the products of which required to manufacture stainless steel and steel products?a hint the same guys who put pressure on the governement to block the Dali lamas visit... who goes around the world speaking about current human rights violations
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MorenaWaPolelo
A mor.on in suit I wonder how he runs his business!!!Report Abuse
MommaC
somaartakeit... and who do you think will be the ones to 'eat' if it is nationalised? The grass isn't going to get any and the grass roots are going to get even less. It will all go to newer waBenzis and waBoeings and waBling
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Sinudeity
"Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government controlled Iscor? Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government established Foskor in Phalaborwa?The apartheid government was boycotted by most of the world.
Why do the calls for nationalisation, always come from the incompetent/corrupt portion of the government?
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somaartakeit
@Mambaai I hear what you are saying but to the grass-roots nationa lisation seem to be a viable option and don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing in favour of being colo nised by China I just wish we didn't have to be re-colo nised that's all.@MC hence I said had the current owners cared to develop the ppl, the ppl wld know what has to be done, they neglected that respon sibility cause they were engrossed in their own self enrich ment on the bl00od and swe@t of those they exploited, so why shld I care if their loot is now being threa tened? when the ppl at grassroots don't see improvements in their lives they don't see any reason to continue to respect rules of the games, that is all that I am saying, hence calls for nationa lisation.
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somaartakeit
and believe MC the downtroddens will throw their weight behind those calling for nationalisation and land reform, cause to them its the ones running these resources who are insensitive to their plight its the incompetent and bribable politicians who are selling their issues short.Report Abuse
MommaC
somaartakeitThat way lies anarchy and civil war. Not something to be wished upon our people.
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somaartakeit
For my part MC, rather than seeing what is happening in Aurora I'd rather the mines are nationalised, cause if ppl are afforded responsibility (ownership) they will have something to work towards with pride.Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@MC please let us be realistic about our situation, we are already in one way or another in some kind of war (conflict) that's why you have the guy waiting at the traffic light to smash and grab from you and me, hence if the economic empowe rment projects were kicked started, a smash and grab situation wld have been minimised or prevented all together,let us be under no illusion that we (the middle class) haven't contributed to the situation, for allowing this gov to cause so many to be destitute and ignite the need in them to survive.
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SeshegoGuY
Was Mathale Speaking officially or merely expressing an opinion as an individual??? We all know what the Government Stance on the issue is-- Zuma did Clarify it. Why Mathale making public pronouncement when there is a Policy conference on the wayReport Abuse
MommaC
somaartakeitBut nationalisation won't give the people who work in the mines or who live in the area any ownership. It will give the state ownership. The same state which allowed the Aurora shame to occur in the first place. When Pomozi went belly up, the state were the ones who took over curatorship and handed it over to the political parasites.
The state already owns the mineral rights. The people who own the property have no say or ownership of the minerals below the soil. Effectively, the state 'nationalises' every piece of ground with minerals under it as the owners can do nothing to stop the government from granting mining rights on their property. There are a number of court cases about that at the moment. Farmers suddenly find equipment being hauled in and their crops being hauled out because someone gave someone else a permit to mine on the farmer's land.
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mambaaai
@somtaartakeit we may not like reality but we have to accept it to move on. if professional companies are allowed to run and extract the minerals its ok it the most effective...and efficient..... the laws of the land are still in the hands of the government they can change the tax laws any time to get more money to go to the people ... the companies can also pay to local taxes....but having these entities in the hands of the government people ...Im sorry they have not shown themselves to be consistent and too many funny stories that are not hahaha
In the soviet union countries the downtrodden didnt benifit from the nationalised industries....and they suffered even more, because with nationalised farms and stuff the lazy government employees did their little bit for the day and as a result there wasnt enough food in the shops.... Zimbabwe style...
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KeRataBasadi
@ somaartakeitTell it like it is my sister, this investor talk is purely scare tactics by those who stand to benefit from running their slave ships (amistads) on us, we are forever held hostage when we ask for a piece of the pie, I have witnessed one such investor in action and believe me, they aint sh1t.
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1tsotsi
Sinudeity"Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government controlled Iscor? Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government established Foskor in Phalaborwa?
The apartheid government was boycotted by most of the world.
Why do the calls for nationalisation, always come from the incompetent/corrupt portion of the government?
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But the investors never left, also the B.rutal apartheid regime was boycotted coz is was immoral and treated other races as slaves, inhumanity. Why would investors leave now if they failed to leave back then, why why why
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somaartakeit
You know MC in developed world, the rich lobby their gov officials for tax friendly schemes so this helps them to continue making economy happen, the middle class lobby for the deliverance of necessities to ALL, in SA we are selfish everyone is looking out for themselves whilst the poor are left to their devices, first of all, no one is pleased with being called the down-trodden/poor/grassroots these ppl had dreams which were dashed by the gov and the middle-class for failing to raise their issues on their behalf, instead us middle class esp black (myself incl) decided to abandon the town ship life and moved to affluent suburbs bcoz somehow we think if we don't see izinyoka on the streets the problem is none existing so we don't lobby for the gov to roll out necessities we are pre-occupied with our self interests, we have become insensitive to the needs of the ppl hence the gov is taking a que from us, that is why they ONLY ever visit squatter camps to collect votes and make empty promisesReport Abuse
The-Rothschilds
Is this guy for real????Zimbabwe has investors? Thats news to everyone.
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somaartakeit
@KeRataBasadi@ somaartakeit
Tell it like it is my sister, this investor talk is purely scare tactics by those who stand to benefit from running their slave ships (amistads) on us
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and in any case we have an upper hand on these investors, they need our minerals more than we need them, what we should be doing is get best businesses with best social development business plan fo the communities whose land is being mined as partners, that's why I say, at this juncture we need best possible leaders who have interests of the ppl to heart who will negotiate best deals on our behalf not these ja b@@ses
Nigeria is running its own resources from farming to energy they are poised to become economically stronger than SA in 10yrs thina we jama ikhuwa lisirithe umlando uzophela.
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MommaC
somaartakeitIt is like that the world over. Life is what you make of it. If you want to make your life about crying every time the river floods your pondokki then that is what your life will be about. If you want to build a house one brick at a time in a safe area then that is what your life will be about. Government can only do so much.
Yes, the government has failed in many areas and that is despicable but people need to also get out of their comfy little 'woe is me' ruts and do something for themselves. This new entitlement tendency is not helping anyone - least of all the poor
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mambaaai
1tsotsi take a look at it only from a money point of view. think a little bit it will all become immediatly clear to you...an investor is one who invests money in order to get returns on the money (dot) if a country nationalises the company he invested in...the initial investment is just taken away from him, and all his returns he was going to get as well , simple....
if they do that to mines why not to a car factory....and so on and so on...and so SA is not the only place on the planet an investor has to choose where to put his money
by the way there is nothing to stop the government building and delivering a new mine itself...question why havent they done this?
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsIs this guy for real????
Zimbabwe has investors? Thats news to everyone.
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its prolly new to you not to everyone, cause a Swiss chocolate company amongst others invests in Zim dairy farms owned by Mrs Mugabe and there is also China.
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The-Rothschilds
1tsotsiInvestors would leave because they have spent billions of rands investing in capital projects in this country with guarantees from our government that there will be a return on their investments.
We have no budget to pay for the mining firms, which means we would have to take shares at below market value or at no compensation which is called theft.
Those investors who would then lose billions in such a transaction would probably ask their governments to nuke us to pieces.
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Xovizwe
@Some-one who promotes nationalization:How will you directly benefit from Nationalization, and how will I directly benefit?
How will nationalization change the life of that person living in the shack without a job and an ID book?
For government to recover those moneys, it will take years, in fact, decades. Couple of individuals will be employed (cadres) to management of those mines, with their l0oting. Pe0ple will loose their jobs just like the time when SABC, ESKOM, etc went under government (Nationalization).
The fact is, with the Nationalization, the intended benefactors will never benefit anything, but Khulubuse's and Duduzana's, Malema's, Sexwale's and the few elite already in the mining industry will benefit. With their so called experience in mining, they will be running those mines for government. We all know the end-result.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
It is like that the world over. Life is what you make of it. If you want to make your life about crying every time the river floods your pondokki then that is what your life will be about. If you want to build a house one brick at a time in a safe area then that is what your life will be about. Government can only do so much.
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except for in SA this gov hadn't had the time to address issues of the prev marginalised cause they are being held to ransom that the 'investors are goign to run away' when they are not indulging in public purse, also here in SA MC ppl need to be propped up cause of the dis-empower ment which happened not so long ago, and these competing at high levels of our economy had an unfair advantage, so you can't now say ppl need to do stuff for themselves when there are no support for them to do so.
Even in developed countries the gov supported by private sector gives ppl the tools to sustain themselves, why is it that in Africa ppl are expected to be their peak performance after they've been dis empowered for so many years?
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
Is this guy for real????
Zimbabwe has investors? Thats news to everyone.
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its prolly new to you not to everyone, cause a Swiss chocolate company amongst others invests in Zim dairy farms owned by Mrs Mugabe and there is also China.
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Zimbabwe has an unemployment rate above 80 percent and its GDP is hovering around $5 billion dollars. It also has debts to the IMF it can never pay back. Yes and then there is China, using Zimbabweans as cattle fodder.
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Xovizwe
Nationalization doesn't come for cheap, just like land redistribution. Government have to fork money, not little money but billions from our tax (just like e-tolls)
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MorenaWaPolelo
Why does this Mor0n want to Nationalise when he knows the Government can not afford too, why is Mathale always out of touch Lethuli House must get rid of this cretin!!!Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@Xovizwe@Some-one who promotes nationalization:
How will you directly benefit from Nationalization, and how will I directly benefit?
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Not everything is as about you, the issues of land reform for instance affect those living in rural areas, the issue of mines affects communities in these areas, what is so difficult for you to understand in this?
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somaartakeit
@Rothschild, I know abt high unemployment in Zim but I was correcting your statement that there are no investors there, ppl like you when talking abt zim must please try to stick with facts not emotions. I don't like uncle Bob anymore than you do, for causing ordinary Zimbabweans to be country-less but we must factual in analysing Zim situation we must not lie and say his land reform or nationalisation alone is responsible for the collapse of Zim economy when we all know that the powers be devalued Zim currency amongst other reasons their economy is weak.Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
XovizweNationalization doesn't come for cheap, just like land redistribution. Government have to fork money, not little money but billions from our tax (just like e-tolls)
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Land is not the issue, government is the issue
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somaartakeit
and the ignorance to use Zim situation as a scare tactic to try hold SA from natioalisation if what is what the ppl is super cillious to say the least, let us nationalise in rational terms, let us land reform in rational terms, let us not wait to be hijacked by rebels cause then it wld be chaos and everyone will lose.Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@Rothschild, I know abt high unemployment in Zim but I was correcting your statement that there are no investors there, ppl like you when talking abt zim must please try to stick with facts not emotions. I don't like uncle Bob anymore than you do, for causing ordinary Zimbabweans to be country-less but we must factual in analysing Zim situation we must not lie and say his land reform or nationalisation alone is responsible for the collapse of Zim economy when we all know that the powers be devalued Zim currency amongst other reasons their economy is weak.
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a $5 billion GDP indicates that there are no investors there.
Soweto as a township filled with shacks has a bigger GDP than Zimbabwe
No emotions mate, just facts
I couldnt care less about Zimbabwe, its just another nasty chessboard for the powers as you say.
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1tsotsi
mambaaai1tsotsi take a look at it only from a money point of view. think a little bit it will all become immediatly clear to you...
an investor is one who invests money in order to get returns on the money (dot) if a country nationalises the company he invested in...the initial investment is just taken away from him, and all his returns he was going to get as well , simple....
if they do that to mines why not to a car factory....and so on and so on...and so SA is not the only place on the planet an investor has to choose where to put his money
by the way there is nothing to stop the government building and delivering a new mine itself...question why havent they done this?
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No need for you to try and sound smart, by lecturing to me whats an investor. The investor here is putting in money in exchange of our resources. Our resources are much more worth than the money thatthose investors put in our country as they take a huge chunck of it out of the country, The questions is why didnt they leave during those dark days. Thats why we say we must nationalise, the government is the people for the people, we not nationalising the investors profits, but our resources. And what makes you think that the investors will leave? Please dont join in a chorus which you dont know the notes of that song, rather clap your hands.
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Lehido
The new meaning of the word IDIOT - "Cassel Mathale"Report Abuse
1tsotsi
The-Rothschilds1tsotsi
Investors would leave because they have spent billions of rands investing in capital projects in this country with guarantees from our government that there will be a return on their investments.
We have no budget to pay for the mining firms, which means we would have to take shares at below market value or at no compensation which is called theft.
Those investors who would then lose billions in such a transaction would probably ask their governments to nuke us to pieces.
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You see your problem is that you assuming that the so-called investor would leave, what makes you think that they will leave? are you a fortune teller now?
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KeRataBasadi
@ somaartakeitMy take is, until the truth comes out about what exactly was negotiated upon at CODESA, when these big businesses where setting the agenda on behalf of the oppressor and oppressed , we will not see any significant change to our situation.Here is my theory (humour me), my take is that these guys have dirt on some if not most of the ANC leadership, most or some of which where Imidlwembe as it were, so it was a case of letting them keep the glory (hero status) and they keep the money but will share it with the "best" among them, your Cyrils, Tokyos, etc. and ofcourse f2ck the poor, they are used to the conditions anyway right, (i distinctly remember one such comrade blogger jjq saying something along those lines).
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mambaaai
@somaartakeit but having said that on investors.... the idea about and investor... we have Nandos and mc donalds.... the profits from mc donalds go to the USA and Nandos the profits stay here .... both have created jobsthe bottom line, we need to keep and grow our SA investors
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MommaC
somaartakeitHow are 'investors' holding our education facilities 'hostage'? How are 'investors' holding Eiskom 'hostage'? How are 'investors' holding water and sewage works 'hostage'? How are 'investors' holding our hospitals and police stations 'hostage'?
The problem is that the previously marginalised don't need a hand out - they need a hand UP. You think that giving them a half expired tin mine is going to do that. I think that a decent job and a lot of job opportunities would be far more effective
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The-Rothschilds
1tsotsiCan you read?
Have you ever invested? Would you keep your investment somewhere, if someone threatened to take it or actually takes it?
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitThe powers did nothing to Zimbabwe.
Zimbabwe could not pay it debts and defaulted in 1999, therefore the US blocked the IMF from giving out any loans until there were political reforms in Zimbabwe. Like Greece has had to take painful reforms, even a change of government for emergency loans. Mad Bob has refused to allow any reforms to happen.
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The-Rothschilds
LehidoThe new meaning of the word IDIOT - "Cassel Mathale"
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Explains why there are so many problems in Limpopo
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somaartakeit
@Rotschilds this irrational and unfounded fear you guys have when we speak about nationalisation and land reform is a direct reason that we are being held to ransom by radicals, I say let us openly and honestly discuss fairly call the bluff of those who want to use this as a vehicle to remain in power, we're calling their bluff and at the same time taking power back, surely if there is nothing alarming/sinister no one should be threatened by an honest and civilised discussion on fair distribution of country's resources.@MC which part of any of my commentary alluded to what you say about social structures that are collapsing being held to ransom by investors, which part please do tell, and for the sake of savign time, can we please remain on course iro this debate an stop creating ghosts and other scare tactics where there are non.
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mambaaai
@1tsotsi you are right about the proportion of the investment compared to the value of the resource.... but the resource still belongs to the land to the people...........the people represented by the government get royalties and taxes from the investors from what they produced and treated in eachh of the mines...........the taxes and royalies are for service delivery to the people the government choses what the taxes and royalies should be....Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@mambaaai@somaartakeit but having said that on investors.... the idea about and investor... we have Nandos and mc donalds.... the profits from mc donalds go to the USA and Nandos the profits stay here .... both have created jobs
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@Mambaai I really really don't care abt McDonalds or KFC cause those are USA entities so they can do with it what they want, mines are our national resources and I guess its a reasonable expectation for SAns to expect a share of these?
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MommaC
somaartakeitYou are the one blaming industry for all the ills of the poor and the government's inability to provide service. I just want to know how industry is doing so
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
"You are the one blaming industry for all the ills of the poor and the government's inability to provide service..." you wish that was the case so you can validate your disagreeing with my stand point, you also wld have read my views on the failing social structures which I hve blamed squarely on the regime hence I have called for regime change, so when did I say investors are responsible for collapsing of our social structures, copy paste that message here so we can take it further from there.
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mambaaai
@ somaartakeitthere is a mechanism how SAns and nationals from countries around the world benifit from the treatment of the resources via taxes and royalties imposed by the government (the elected peoples representatives) many tried to explain, but it seems some have been completely blinded by emotive politicing
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitI never once gave a view point about nationalisation, i simply questioned Mathale's logic in using Zimbabwe's as a example to justify some made idea he has about investor behavior.
Once again you jumped to conclusions.
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MommaC
somaartakeit"except for in SA this gov hadn't had the time to address issues of the prev marginalised cause they are being held to ransom that the 'investors are goign to run away' "
Direct quote from you - scroll up and check if you don't believe me.
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MommaC
mines are our national resources and I guess its a reasonable expectation for SAns to expect a share of these?MINES are not a national resource MINERALS are a national resource (owned by the state) Mines didn't pop up out of nowhere, they were built.
Why does nobody want the MINERALS but only the MINES?
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somaartakeit
@mambaaai - do you know about the retribution case lodged in the UK as we speak by some of the (former I think?) mine workers who claimed that their health has been put to risk due to poor working conditions? the calls for nationalisation wldn't be this strong if these so called investors treated their slaves with a shred of humility, those now suing AngloAmerican wld have no case no?@Rotschilds your original comment said it was new to everyone that there are investors in Zim? your arrogance caused you assume on behalf of everyone that we believe there is no investments in Zim? which of course is lie, same lies pushed by British aligned press to taint Zimbabwe cause of diplomatic stand off btwn Britain and Zim, you know as much as I do that Zim economy collapse was spear headed by amongst other players GB in cahots with USA and this selfishness and political bullyism caused scores of Zimbabweans to become economic refugees.
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Wozanami
Nationalisation could conceivably work if government was largely uncorrupted.The fact of the matter is that if our mines were nationalised, but perhaps managed by private sector, and managed to maintain market competitiveness, they could be a huge help to the welfare of the people.
Instead, we know that in the current climate of honesty in gvt, benefit to the masses would be minimal if any.
In 20 years after nationalisation, there will be none of these "economic freedom in our lifetime" slogan-chanters to explain why the masses felt no tangible benefit. fat cats just get fatter.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
"except for in SA this gov hadn't had the time to address issues of the prev marginalised cause they are being held to ransom that the 'investors are goign to run away' "
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Pliz don't quote bits and pieces of my commentary to suit your agenda, I said that there is no reason whatsover to fear nationalisation or land reform and citing Zim's examples cause this is tantamount to holding SAn regime to ransom, SA since 1994 has been held to ransom by unfounded fears of the minorities to eg land reform, nationalisation these fears which fmr president Nelson Mandela spent a lot of time nursing, guys enough of this BS already, majority citizens here are down troddens those are the real fears and legitimate ones to that effect and they must be addressed with such urgency cause we have already lost 18yrs looking for the boogey man feared by the minorities.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitThere are no investors in Zim which is indicated by its $5 billion dollar GDP and its GDP to debt ratio of over 150 percent.
The few investors that are left in Zim are White Rhodesians who are trying to hold on to their family businesses they have developed over decades, but they are living in this dream world that Zimbabwe will return to its former glory...........which is just a dream. There there is those few who are rich in ZANU PF by robing the treasury dry which explains the GDP debt ratio to be at 150%
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somaartakeit
@WozanamiNationalisation could conceivably work if government was largely uncorrupted.
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You see I like that opening statement cause you are dismissing the needs/frustrations of those calling for this, you are first acknowledging (as every human should who is sensitive to the needs of others) the other guys arguing against just go straight out and be arrogant and concl that its not feasible, this is what annoys those who are for it.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitAs for Britain and the USA..................they have pulled the plug on Zim, and had every right to do so......................as a investor, i would of also taken my money out of Zim if had any of there........noone in their right mind would keep money in a country where there is no rule of law or respect for property rights............you might as well kiss your money good bye, which is what the Zimbabweans did.......with their Zim dollars, it served better purpose being toilet paper.
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Ntjapeli
This manhas GONE INSANE.Is he MAD? Shame on you STUPID.
Malema infected Limpopo already? Mathale
is as MAD.
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Ntjapeli
This man is soREDUNDANT. He
doesn't say anything
to address issues people
are dealing with. However
what are the intelectuals in
Limpopo doing about this DUMBFUCK?
Waiting for handovers?
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MommaC
somaartakeitYou have no concept of the importance of tenure security, do you?
Lets take the Zim situation with farm invasions.
The majority of those farms had mortgages with the banks. The banks took one hell of a knock and, as a result, the twit Gono decided to print a shed load of moola to cover the loss. We all know how that worked out. An added problem was that the banks then didn't want to loan to farmers (not surprisingly as they never knew if they were going to get their money back or not). Now farms cannot possibly upgrade or repair or even exist without at least a scary overdraft. The inability to secure said overdraft makes effective commercial farming impossible. We also know how that worked out.
One of the greatest hinderer to Africa is the land tenure problem. Community ownership or 'chief' ownership makes taking out a loan to purchase irrigation equipment / tractors / etc impossible. The result is that the full potential of the land is not achieved and the person who works the land is forced to work harder and earn less than if he owned it. It is a direct contributor to the poverty cycle.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitBut im still trying to see where i ever spoke about my views on nationalisation where you are trying to impose the view that "we must land reform and nationalize in a rational way"
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartakeit
"The few inve stors that are left in Zim are Wh!te Rho desians ...." ROTFLOL they still have those? at least you have confi dence and arrogance to ackno wledge that in Zim there still are Ian Smi th remnants, rednecks ontamo lukhuni, lol no wonder bob is not yielding an inch,
btw in the future please you don't have to express colour of Rhode sians we all know they are all white, the rest are Zimba bweans!
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Wozanami
@SomaarThere is no one in this room including you or me, who have a working understanding of the implications of nationalisation, how it would work, who it would benefit, and what the knock-on effects would be. Apart from the fact that none of us can see the future, this is a very complicated economic concept.
Your arguments are just as emotional as the arguments of those who argue against it. You refuse to see their side just as they refuse to see yours. both arguments have good points and are blind to the points of the other.
the irony is that BOTH sets of people want what is best for Mzansi.
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartakeit
"But im still trying to see where i ever spoke about my views on nationalisation where you are trying to impose the view that "we must land reform and nationalize in a rational way" I cld never impose anything on you, I have no need, more than I say this debate is on going with/out your participation in it cause this is what the ppl now want to talk about, after waiting for 18yrs for the regime to deliver.
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somaartakeit
@Wozanami, I see their side alright, and it is selfish to try stiffle the debate cause some have fears or want to hold on ill gotten gains, the ppl represented by the leaders who are calling for nationalisation and land reform have a right to call for this discussion to be opened without it being hindered by unfounded fears at expense of real and legitimate issues,of course we have no understanding of how this if implemented will pan out, but does that mean we should not try at least work towards that, how will we know if we don't work with it, or should wait for political radicals to hijack this national agenda whilst we allow ourselves to held back by un/real fear of the unknown?
JFYI I have nothing to gain if nationalisation or land reform happens, but just cause I am not affected does not mean I can not see the point of view of the ppl who feel they are not benefiting they way things are iro these projects.
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
"But im still trying to see where i ever spoke about my views on nationalisation where you are trying to impose the view that "we must land reform and nationalize in a rational way" I cld never impose anything on you, I have no need, more than I say this debate is on going with/out your participation in it cause this is what the ppl now want to talk about, after waiting for 18yrs for the regime to deliver.
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So let them debate, i never gave my view about nationalization, you assumed i gave a view, when i was questioning Mathale's ridiculous theory on Zimbabwe and investors...............just like Irvin Jim's teeth, you just seem to assume too much.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschildssomaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit"...............just like Irvin Jim's teeth, you just seem to assume too much" at least Irvin Jim has his own teeth wena you have false teeth *sit down*
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit
"The few inve stors that are left in Zim are Wh!te Rho desians ...." ROTFLOL they still have those? at least you have confi dence and arrogance to ackno wledge that in Zim there still are Ian Smi th remnants, rednecks ontamo lukhuni, lol no wonder bob is not yielding an inch,
btw in the future please you don't have to express colour of Rhode sians we all know they are all white, the rest are Zimba bweans!
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Well at least now we have covered the investor part. Now that we agree that there are like no investors in Zim, now we can move on and say that Mathale should not use Zimbabwe as a good example when relating to investors? Unless he wants SA to keep those red necks ontamo lukhuni lurking around.
There is nothing wrong with expressing colour.............perhaps you should not call people red necks then MR.
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit"...............just like Irvin Jim's teeth, you just seem to assume too much" at least Irvin Jim has his own teeth wena you have false teeth *sit down*
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Like i said, you assume too much
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somaartakeit
and btw guys, it is annoying to the majority that each time the minorities have fears (legitimate or not) a discussion on major issues has to be abandoned cause they feel uncomfortable discussing it, such as in this case land reform and renationalisation, you guys must understand that TRC does not translate to, we will only talk about what is convenient, in order for forgiveness to prevail, we must be honest with each other, the majority are the transgressors who want to dictate to those who are expected to forgive the past the rules of the game, this is arrogance and outright undermining others, why are you so against land reform and nationalisation that you have developed a phobia about it?We (majority) had to swallow our pain for the sake of peace, all that we expect is for you guys to understand that we also have insecurities and we also want to be part of the economic pie, and one of the way to ensure this, is suggested land reform and renationalisation, how can it be wrong for ppl who have been dis empo wered by an unjust system to suggest some of the ways they feel wld help alliviate poverty in their communities, it is ONLY selfish driven interests that anyone could reject this, esp since no one is violent about asking for such a debate to opened/
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somaartakeit
@Rothschilds I know what when you Rhodesians an issue of land reform and nationalisation it has the same effect as the red flag to a b#ll, but you must know that here in SA we have democracy we can discuss everything, wena dont' suffocate this discussion with your irrational fears which you are imposing on us, we are not rensponsible for your soured relations with Mugabe, you shld be grateful that we are nice and welcomed you Rhodesian refugees warmly here in SA, you don't have to participate in this debate, cause we see that you have some very deep psychological problems as a direct result your being ntamo lukhuni much to the annoyance of our uncle Bob, but please don't stall the process here, you are a guest after all!Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitAnd its annoying that there are loud mouths like yourself who like to assume what minorities are feeling and debating and what is even more annoying is that you seem to believe you are the official mouth piece for the majority.
There are alot of people elected by your majority of people who would completely disagree with your point of view when regarding the economy & political issues in this country.
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartakeit
"There are alot of people elected by your majority of people who would completely disagree with your point of view when regarding the economy & political issues in this country" if that were the case why do majority still vote anc and not the DA? have you not been paying attention that most that are voting the DA like myself say that we are doing so AGAINST the anc not because we think they really have interests of majority issues to heart? do you actually think the DA will ever gov SA? cause if you do then you are completely overdosing on your meds, now go drink water and sleep!.
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The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit-I have never been to ZImbabwe ................. master of assumptions. I could not care less about ZImbabwe, doesnt not mean im oblivious about what is happening in the economics over there and the rest of the world........i have a masters in economics and with that knowledge i am quite capable of deciding what went wrong in ZIm.
As for nationalisation and land reform in SA, i still have not given my views to you yet. And i dont plan to, either, you really not worth any debate.
If anything you should really waste your life researching the pigmentation of skin, since you are so obsessed with it.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartekeitThere are many in the ANC who do not agree with your economic or political view points (the majority party)
Is that much better than? Christ you like a tumble dryer.................i did not even mention the DA and now you just typed a hole lot of hog wash about the DA i dont care about.
You waste my time seriously.
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartakeit-
"I have never been to ZImbabwe ................. master of assumptions" but you already know that there Rhodesians who are the white hope rescuing zim economy (you cristal ball owner)!
"I could not care less about ZImbabwe..." so? why are you talking about it then? you're wasting my time engaging me on something you don't care about, go to bed, now!!!
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oldlady2
Somaartakeit, I think those investors in Zim are only investing because it's Mrs Mugabe's dairy farm. Some big kickbacks must be in play there. Also, I believe the ones against nasionalisation of the mines are not against it in principle. Our fears are because of the inefficient, corrupt government. It does not help to destroy something that is working fine, the poor stay exactly where they are, and the ones who did have jobs now have nothing. If we could have more faith in our government, we'd be more open to changes.Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartekeit
"There are many in the ANC who do not agree with your economic or political view points (the majority party)"
You're missing the whole point Mister!! Mathale who is anc gov min and premier said mines should be nationalised, and I said I see his point of view and I also said in doing so we need to be honest and open with view to resolve this outstanding (per FC) national issue with fair distribution of national resources, and you must please not talk on behalf of majority cause ppl like you the ONLY real interaction you with ppl from those communities is when they come to house to do chores for your and you think you know them and their aspiration, sit down mlungu ndini I am getting naar with you!!
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
Somaartakeit-
"I have never been to ZImbabwe ................. master of assumptions" but you already know that there Rhodesians who are the white hope rescuing zim economy (you cristal ball owner)!
"I could not care less about ZImbabwe..." so? why are you talking about it then? you're wasting my time engaging me on something you don't care about, go to bed, now!!!
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Because you made an assumption that im a Rhodesian refugee.
I dont care about Zim, what i do care about is that we have politicians making ridiculous theories about Zimbabwe and consumer behaviour, because it effects this country. My home.
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Bornday
I think Mr Mathale has used wrong example of Zimbabwe. We should come up with our own strategy of making our natural resource work for us all. Each country has unique problems and is proven time and time again that, any market system by it self never works. We should have a good mix of market systems that will benefit all our people.Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@oldlady2Somaartakeit, I think those investors in Zim are only investing because it's Mrs Mugabe's dairy farm.
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So you agree with me that there are investors who are investing in Zim? can you please transmit this simple msg to Rothschild who seem to think there are no investors, thank you!
Whether they are investing as you suggest on the farms bcoz they are Grace's farms is neither here nor there, the point I was making which you have also confirmed is that, the statement by Rothschild that there are no investors in Zim is FALSE.
And just to entertain your argument that they are investing on the farms cause they belong to Mrs Mugabe, that then will mean there is something 'good about these Mugabe' which attracts the Swiss chocolate company to invest in the farms owned by Mrs Mugabe?
Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"There are many in the ANC who do not agree with your economic or political view points (the majority party)"
You're missing the whole point Mister!! Mathale who is anc gov min and premier said mines should be nationalised, and I said I see his point of view and I also said in doing so we need to be honest and open with view to resolve this outstanding (per FC) national issue with fair distribution of national resources, and you must please not talk on behalf of majority cause ppl like you the ONLY real interaction you with ppl from those communities is when they come to house to do chores for your and you think you know them and their aspiration, sit down mlungu ndini I am getting naar with you!!
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Oh my god dude, you are really annoying.
I never spoke on behalf of any majority unlike yourself.
I just said that there are many in the ruling party who do not agree with you...........so you must stop acting like the official mouth piece of the majority.
Unlike you, i dont try act like i know whats best for everyone.......................and trust me, from your comments, i dont think you know whats best for anyone either.................you are way to racist
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"Because you made an assumption that im a Rhodesian refugee" you are a refugee nonetheless, lol
"I dont care about Zim, what i do care about is that we have politicians making ridiculous theories about Zimbabwe and consumer behaviour..." he has a right to make these comments afterall we are all entitled to our views, yours and mine is seek facts in what he is saying, wena you come up with false claim that there are no investors in Zim just Rhodesian white hope saving the day, who is more lying you or Mathale? that's a rhetorical question, the point is wena you can't restrain yourself from being emotional when we discuss malema (ANCYL, Mugabe) and all those guys who seem to threaten your comfort zone, why? and please be rational in your responses cause for this one I want to assume that you are a sane person not a mental case,
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeitSo you agree with me that there are investors who are investing in Zim? can you please transmit this simple msg to Rothschild who seem to think there are no investors, thank you!
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I dont consider a couple of farms & mines in ZImbabwe that provide employment to less than 10% of the working age population investment dude........................every country, even war zones, have some sort of investment in it..................its the magnitude of investment.
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oldlady2
Somaartakeit, of course there is something good about the Mugabe dairy farm transaction. Major kickbacks. Like you, I also firmly believe that no investor will run away because of policy changes. They just change their investments accordingly. If the mines are nationalised with our current cadres in place, they'd just invest in those cadres personal bank accounts and the rest of us will have even less. I'd like you to respond on me saying we are not against nationalisation in principle, but because of the "trust" wehave in our current government. Do you honestly think the current government can and will make it work for the poor?Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"Because you made an assumption that im a Rhodesian refugee" you are a refugee nonetheless, lol
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i wont drop to your level
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschildssomaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"Oh my god dude, you are really annoying..." very good!!!.
"I never spoke on behalf of any majority unlike yourself" btwn you and me who has most legitimacy talking on behalf of the masses given that I come from those communities, wena you are trying to control how I align myself, which is a problem of your being arrogant,
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschildssomaartakeit
"I dont consider...." how did this discussion abt Zim's economy become about you? Jirre do your ego is huge I wonder how you fit into a normal size bldng!
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"Because you made an assumption that im a Rhodesian refugee" you are a refugee nonetheless, lol
"I dont care about Zim, what i do care about is that we have politicians making ridiculous theories about Zimbabwe and consumer behaviour..." he has a right to make these comments afterall we are all entitled to our views, yours and mine is seek facts in what he is saying, wena you come up with false claim that there are no investors in Zim just Rhodesian white hope saving the day, who is more lying you or Mathale? that's a rhetorical question, the point is wena you can't restrain yourself from being emotional when we discuss malema (ANCYL, Mugabe) and all those guys who seem to threaten your comfort zone, why? and please be rational in your responses cause for this one I want to assume that you are a sane person not a mental case,
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Yes Mathale has the right to express his views just like i have the right to tell him his wrong and should check his facts.
If he wants to turn South Africa into a $5 billion Zimbabwe size economy from its current $500 billion economy, then i have the right to say, that he is completely stupid.
I never said white rhodesians are saving the day, i said they are the only investors left apart from the few in ZANU PF...................those few white rhodesians and ZANU PF control the tiny $5 billion that is left in that forsaken country...............i certainly dont want my country or home to turn into such a hell hole.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"i wont drop to your level " don't worry about it for you have no level to start off with,
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit
"I dont consider...." how did this discussion abt Zim's economy become about you? Jirre do your ego is huge I wonder how you fit into a normal size bldng!
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As having a masters in economics, my view point on investment patterns would mean more than a retard like yourself...................no offense to retards!
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"i wont drop to your level " don't worry about it for you have no level to start off with,
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and you have a level? trying to insult people when you have very little or no knowledge of much in life.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"Yes Mathale has the right to express his views just like i have the right to tell him his wrong and should check his facts" Except for you have failed to tell him that he is wrong with facts to hand, instead you lie and say there are no investors in Zim a lie I tried to correct but you are a stubborn Rhodesian refugee, judging by your behaviour here I can see how guys like you drove poor uncle Bob mad as he is today, and you blame for it, lol.
"If he wants to turn South Africa..." don't be paranoid mlungu man this is just Mathele's opinion which you rightly stated he is entitled to it, others are for or against it and if majority agrees then there is nothing you can do against that, its democracy my friend:-)
"I never said white Rhodesians are saving the day..." that is how it came across, and btw I said if there are Rhode sians in Zim they can only be white, others are Zimbabweans so don't over emphasise too much on the race of said Rhode sians residing in Zim, just for interests sake do these Rhode sians know that Ian Sm!th is no more? lol
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"and you have a level? trying to insult people when you have very little or no knowledge of much in life" I am glad that you realise that I am not good at insulting ppl cause unlike you I was not brought and handed down a manual of insults:-)
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somaartakeit
Jirre maar Rotschilds why don't you come up straight and admit that you fancy me? cause now you are monopolising my time, do you think over arguing with me will make me change my point of view? just admit it mlungu you fancy me but you have no approach, lolReport Abuse
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"Yes Mathale has the right to express his views just like i have the right to tell him his wrong and should check his facts" Except for you have failed to tell him that he is wrong with facts to hand, instead you lie and say there are no investors in Zim a lie I tried to correct but you are a stubborn Rhodesian refugee, judging by your behaviour here I can see how guys like you drove poor uncle Bob mad as he is today, and you blame for it, lol.
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I never gave any wrong facts, there is not investment in Zimbabwe, besides immanence of last remaining rhodesians and ofcourse, the politicians.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"As having a masters in economics, my view point on investment patterns would mean more than a retard like yourself........" history shows us that guys like you with all education and unfair head start and advantages you took you still are stupid cause you replicate same mistakes everywhere you go, plus how do you explain that you lot still are Rhodesians and God knows what not and failing to integrate or speak local lingos? and you assume somehow you are superior? IF anything you guys are advance economy cause fo the brut force employed when your forebears came to Africa to colonise, cause you have no ability to be fair or compete on an equal footing,
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"I never gave any wrong facts, there is not investment in Zimbabwe, besides immanence of last remaining rhodesians and ofcourse, the politicians" SO then Mr diploma in economic what do you call investments by Swiss company and China in Zim?
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The-Rothschilds
somaartekeit"If he wants to turn South Africa..." don't be paranoid mlungu man this is just Mathele's opinion which you rightly stated he is entitled to it, others are for or against it and if majority agrees then there is nothing you can do against that, its democracy my friend:-)
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And in a democracy i have the right to disagree with Mathale
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somaartakeit
And also Rotschilds the inability for guys like you to understand a simple form of life that we can't always be agreeing on same things, I was reading with much amusement that your kind up in arms cause Khaya Dlanga wrote his views on usage of the term 'refugee' by Helen Zille, others calling him an anc sympathiser when Khaya politically is aligned to Cope, it is this irrationality and ignorance that there is always going to be you and us when it comes to you guys, cause you can't accept that a black person has an opinion which differs from yours, you are threatened by everything, you are paranoid and mentally underdeveloped taht you can not engage with your opponents civilly and in a marture manner, hence I say you guys with all the degree you claim you have but you still remain cavemen who still believe domninance of others is the way to go, even the world master bullies (USA) has taken a different approach cause they have realised after tried and failed 'dominance approach' that they will be met with resistance, wena and your ilk are without any ability whatsoever to learn frm yoru mistakes you replicate them, that my friend is a direct reason you will alienate yourselves.Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"And in a democracy i have the right to disagree with Mathale..." has anyone denied of that right? you paranoid refugee.
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MommaC
Herein, dears and dufuses, lays the reason that this debate can never be productive. It simply degenerates into personal insults and pettiness.Report Abuse
mambaaai
@somaartakeitmambaaai - do you know about the retribution case lodged in the UK as we speak by some of the (former I think?) mine workers who claimed that their health has been put to risk due to poor working conditions? the calls for nationalisation wldn't be this strong if these so called investors treated their slaves with a shred of humility, those now suing AngloAmerican wld have no case no?
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the discussion is about nationalisation, so lets suppose for one moment that those very same mines belonged to the government.... this ANC government.... I wonder how the claims would be treated...? ummmm lets guess middle finger treatment again...same like all the other stuff...they have promised us...this is.not even on stuff they didnt promise so almost 100% sure MF for those poor guys if it was this nationalised and was this crowd even
Personnally I think they stand a better chance because its Anglo, because Anglo want to protect its public image...plus the governement can put pressure on them...with health and safety laws to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again
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The-Rothschilds
MommaCHerein, dears and dufuses, lays the reason that this debate can never be productive. It simply degenerates into personal insults and pettiness.
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agreed
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somaartakeit
@oldlady2"...of course there is something good about the Mugabe dairy farm transaction. Major kickbacks..." I am confused now, Mrs Mugabe owns the farm/s Swiss Chocolate firms invest in and btw you do know that Swiss Chocolate is big business in the West after the roses which are sourced from Kenya? so what I wanted to ask why wld Swiss give kick backs to Mrs Mugabe to invest n her business? Pliz you guys stop assuming the worse of Mugabes cause most of us don't agree with them politically.
The belief on the running away of investors on my part is based on the world economic realities today, that is, the West needs Africa (for her resources) more than Africa needs the West plus there are new economic power kids on the block (China, Russia) who are giving the West a run for their monies, that is why I said, we are in a perfect position now, to chose the ones who are most likely to respect us and help us (by funding social development projects) so we can realise a goal of a better life for all.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCHerein, dears and dufuses, lays the reason that this debate can never be productive. It simply degenerates into personal insults and pettiness.
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"It simply degenerates into personal insults and pettiness..." you may disembark frm your high horse now given that you also are guilty of same as you just called ppl dufases, lol
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"And in a democracy i have the right to disagree with Mathale..." has anyone denied of that right? you paranoid refugee.
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You seem to deny everyone what right who posts there views on here by acting like a wh0re that doesnt get paid..................................i know what is right and what is wrong, i never disgareed with Mathale on the basis of nationalisation............i disagreed with him to use ZImbabwe as a good example to follow.
As i said to you before, i never gave my views on nationalization or land reform...........you immediately assumed i was against it because i disagreed with Mathale's views on investor behaviour. And then you result to insults & assumptions you praying would put a dent in my ego.
Some of the insults were uncalled for, but what do you expect from a low life trash like yourself.
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somaartakeit
@mambaaai"Personnally I think they stand a better chance because its Anglo, because Anglo want to protect its public image...plus the governement can put pressure on them...with health and safety laws to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again..." wouldn't it be nice if companies didn't wait to be pressured on social responsibility? I doubt Anglo is aware of the mess its in, if they insist on waiting to be pressured in order for them to do the right thing, did you read abt what's happening to them in Congo? I read that the rebels have taken full control of some of its mines, that my friend is a direct of Anglo not being pro-active in its social development projects, that cld happen here, I don't wish for it but that's how the dice rolls when the masses get fed-up for waiting to be partners in the economy, hence I say ppl must repeat mistakes, they must LEARN.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying the anc regime are saints and are capable to do right by the ppl, but the power my friend lies with the ppl, that is why both Anglo and the anc must pay attention to what the ppl want...
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschildssomaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"You seem to deny everyone what right who posts there views..." you seem to be paranoid and crazy my friend, take your meds please.
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MommaC
somaartakeitLOL
Are you calling yourself a dufus?
By the way, Nestle is now pretty much multinational and their core products are not chocolate but rather infant formula
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"I never gave any wrong facts, there is not investment in Zimbabwe, besides immanence of last remaining rhodesians and ofcourse, the politicians" SO then Mr diploma in economic what do you call investments by Swiss company and China in Zim?
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$5 billion dollar GDP for 11 million people
80 % unemployment and getting worse
3 out of 10 Zimbabweans rely on food parcels
extremely low levels of bank liquidity
Thank you Switzerland and China!
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
LOL
Are you calling yourself a dufus? - don't be daft.
WRT Nestle comment, whether multinational or not its neither here nor there, fact is they are investing in Zim contrary to what Mr diploma in economic wld have us believe that there are no investors in Zim, please tell him that a multinational company that is Nestle are amongst main investors and if I were to research further I have no doubt that Coca Cola fall amongst multinationals investing in Zim as i saw the other day they are with the Belgians on a youth development programme sponsoring Zim cyclists
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somaartakeit
Rothschilds what is so difficult for you to understand that your original statement that there are no investors in Zim to feed on your paranoid about land reform and nationalisation talked abt by the anc youth, is not entirely correct? this is the main thing I spoke to you about, then you decided to say you have a degree and from that you have your concl that Swiss (Nestle) China are not investors, are they then tourists in Zim? hayi suka nawe.Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeitcause you can't accept that a black person has an opinion which differs from yours, you are threatened by everything, you are paranoid and mentally underdeveloped taht you can not engage with your opponents civilly and in a marture manner
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If a white person gave the same opinion as Mathale, i would of given the same response
Take your own advise and debate in a mature manner before resorting to insults
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"If a white person gave the same opinion as Mathale.." except for you responded to his comments by lying because your paranoid about land reform and nationalisation prevents you from debating issues in a rational manner,and you lie about the obvious, there are investments in Zim yes their economy i snot as big as it should but fact remain they are attracting some of investments, why can you not admit the basic fact then we can move on?
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeitRothschilds what is so difficult for you to understand that your original statement that there are no investors in Zim to feed on your paranoid about land reform and nationalisation talked abt by the anc youth, is not entirely correct? this is the main thing I spoke to you about, then you decided to say you have a degree and from that you have your concl that Swiss (Nestle) China are not investors, are they then tourists in Zim? hayi suka nawe.
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No its not correct, that is your assumption. I never gave my view on nationalization. I never said i was against it, i said i was against Mathale views.
Investment in ZImbabwe is so small, it doesnt dent the economic hardships that Zimbabweans will experience for decades to come.
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Ngiyaphapha
Its land expropriation without compensation for arrogant pinkies....Report Abuse
somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"Take your own advise and debate in a mature manner before resorting to insults..." and btw way I didn't insult you I just said you are economical with the truth, as a direct result of your inability to acknowledge that a black person has a differing opinion to your superior one which maybe true, you resort to being rude, what did you expect me to do? roll out a red carpet and say yes massa?
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somaartakeit
@NgiyaphaphaIts land expropriation without compensation for arrogant pinkies....
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the farms which are use to train right wing militants must be confiscated by this regime from these ppl cause clearly those farmers who are allowing for their farmers to do such clearly have no need for that land.
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mambaaai
@somaartakeit to be fair there can exist "chancers" to catch some extra money... in the old days the mines and the people didnt know or understand these things and only get to see the results later...and then Im not sure that the people were ever forced to go into these conditions so.... if they thought it was unsafe they could just refuse...but mostly the laws of the land are quite good and have the companies take preventative measures...
but once again....if the mines were nationalised...... does a party that wants to be re-elected by its people want to have this kind of thing on their hands? I think not...so they let the investors take the risks....and they just receive royalties and taxes....
around pressure and responsbility any idea why this current ANC crew have tried to stop informatuion getting to the people via the press....and try to block information....for the same reasons....they want to keep the people uninformed and uneducated because the educated and informed people are going to put them under pressure and make them act responsably...
Im really of the opinion that nationalisation is unworkable and unpracticle and not an option in todays world. and considering the discussion and the information you "worked for " today...and have learned.... I see this topic as a cheap political manouvre....and it may wash for the ones who have never questioned .... but in reality....naaa
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"If a white person gave the same opinion as Mathale.." except for you responded to his comments by lying because your paranoid about land reform and nationalisation prevents you from debating issues in a rational manner,and you lie about the obvious, there are investments in Zim yes their economy i snot as big as it should but fact remain they are attracting some of investments, why can you not admit the basic fact then we can move on?
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Yes i am paranoid about a Zimbabwe style land reform and company grabs, because i know what it will do to the economy.
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MommaC
somaartakeitNestle actually have separate entities in different countries. Nestle Zimbabwe (PTY) Ltd is a registered company in Zim and is run as almost a franchise type operation. Thats how they get around certain local laws.
Coke in Zim is owned by ABI which, in turn, is owned by SABreweries.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"Investment in ZImbabwe is so small, it doesnt dent the economic hardships that Zimbabweans will experience for decades to come" you are stating the obvious Mr Big Diploma in Economics, cuz everyone using 1% of their braincells know that Zim economy was being suffocated to punish the cheeky president of Zim who dares stand up to the might British. Unfortunately for them they have no influence in China or Switzerland but they have devalued the currency like they have suffocated Argentina and Cuba because of diplomatic stale mate,
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
Nestle actually have separate entities in different countries. Nestle Zimbabwe (PTY) Ltd is a registered company in Zim and is run as almost a franchise type operation. Thats how they get around certain local laws.
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that is NEVER in question, more than I used it show mr big diploma in economics that NESTLE WHICH IS SWISS company INVESTS in ZIM, where he said there are NO INVESTORS in Zim,
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"Take your own advise and debate in a mature manner before resorting to insults..." and btw way I didn't insult you I just said you are economical with the truth, as a direct result of your inability to acknowledge that a black person has a differing opinion to your superior one which maybe true, you resort to being rude, what did you expect me to do? roll out a red carpet and say yes massa?
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I just said having a masters in economics, my view points on investment in a country are very solid.....................because you seemed to ask my why does my opinion matter.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
"Coke in Zim is owned by ABI which, in turn, is owned by SABreweries..." You see mr big diploma in economics another investor in Zim.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"I just said having a masters in economics, my view points on investment in a country are very solid.....................because you seemed to ask my why does my opinion matter..." I don't recall saying your opinion don't matter more than I said, it is FACTUALLY FALSE to say by your Mr big diploma in economics that there ARE NO INVESTORS in Zim.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"Yes i am paranoid about a Zimbabwe style land reform and company grabs, because i know what it will do to the economy..." has there been an official announcement that there will be zim style land grabs/nationalising or is this another scaremongering tacts to try prevent discussion on these issues? your paranoid should not result in us not debating what needs to be debated wena you must sort out your paranoid (mental issues) seek professional help.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitI said there is no investment in Zim or should i say, enough investment
I never said there are no investors, i told you, there are investors in Zim, most of them been white Zimabweans and ZANU PF ministers. But Zim is failing to attract enough investment to pull the country out of its slump.
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mambaaai
@somaartakeit the question is currently are the people in Zim flourishing , happy, well fed and content or do they go to other countries for "a better life"? and then lets wind back the clock 40 years and see what Zimbabwes economy looked like relative to the others in the world.....and were the people running from the country then?Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"Yes i am paranoid about a Zimbabwe style land reform and company grabs, because i know what it will do to the economy..." has there been an official announcement that there will be zim style land grabs/nationalising or is this another scaremongering tacts to try prevent discussion on these issues? your paranoid should not result in us not debating what needs to be debated wena you must sort out your paranoid (mental issues) seek professional help.
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dude f*ck off seriously
i never once said noone cant debate, i just disgreed with Mathale's views
get over it now..........noone is stopping any debate
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartakeit
"...or should i say, enough investment..." you needed a degree in economics to come this obvious concl? how many times have been trying to say to you that the economy of Zim has been deliberately been suffocated to punish their 'cheeky' president? unfortunately for Mugabe he took on the most powerful who influence WB and IMF amongst other int'l economic controllers.
Most of us without degrees in economics already knew that what is happening to Zimbabwe is what has been done by America to Cuba when America didnt' get its way it used it power to bully economy of that country, you sometimes the West has a lot to answer for destroyed economies and lives.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitAs for Britain and the USA..................they have pulled the plug on Zim, and had every right to do so......................as a investor, i would of also taken my money out of Zim if had any of there........noone in their right mind would keep money in a country where there is no rule of law or respect for property rights............you might as well kiss your money good bye, which is what the Zimbabweans did.......with their Zim dollars, it served better purpose being toilet paper.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschildssomaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds
"Yes i am paranoid about a Zimbabwe style land reform and company grabs, because i know what it will do to the economy..." has there been an official announcement that there will be zim style land grabs/nationalising or is this another scaremongering tacts to try prevent discussion on these issues? your paranoid should not result in us not debating what needs to be debated wena you must sort out your paranoid (mental issues) seek professional help.
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"dude f*ck off seriously.." are we back to personal insults? you shld warn me so I can meet you half way, as you know I always rise to the challenge and deliver satisfactorily.
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MommaC
somaartakeitActually, ABI isn't invested in Zim, they simply market there
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartakeit
As for Britain and the USA..................they have pulled the plug on Zim, and had every right to do so......................as a investor,
------------------------------------I have not said nor alluded to that they didn't' have that right all I was saying you (wena) did not need a degree in economics to see Zim economy you keep saying hasn't got enough investors (investor confidence) was DELIBERATELY being suffocated by the culprits mentioned above they used this tact in Cuba, and Argentina, but now as they are out of the economic game more so the UK as its hitting its second recession, they will come crawling to Africa for her resources in the same way that former colonisers of Angola are being bailed out by Angola,
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeitZimbabwe defaulted on its debts in 1999
It only made sense the for US to bar anymore loans to Mugabe until reforms were put in place.
Greece has had to suffer many reforms including a change in government to get emergency loans to avoid bankruptcy.
And if you understood basic laws of money markets, and the loss of production by farms & money printing caused hyper inflation, you would understand that Cheeky Uncle Bob has himself to blame.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
Actually, ABI isn't invested in Zim, they simply market there - speaking in tongues are we? Coca-cola which (according to you) is owned by ABI is an investor in Zim or no? I know that your h@te for Bob make you guys irrational when speaking about Zim economy but it is a fact that Coca cola which is a multinational has businesses in Zim, Zim regime will draw tax from this business as part of the norm gov practice, what is so hard for you to accept that Zim is investable.
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschildssomaartakeit
Zimbabwe defaulted on its debts in 1999
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I am not arguing legitimacy or illegitimate Zim debt default, what I saying and it should be clear for you to understand, its economy rightly or wrongly was suffocated by the USA and UK hence you today argue that they haven't got big enough investments.
"It only made sense the for US to bar anymore loans to Mugabe until reforms were put in place.." No it did make sense at all that they will gang up (economically) against a developing country, anyway that is all now besides the point, their interference in others affairs have left them vulnerable to all kinds of extremism. I wish they had ability and common sense to learn from their gigantic Iraq and other mistakes alas they remain ontamo lukhuni!
"Greece has had to suffer many reforms including a change in government to get emergency loans to avoid bankruptcy.." in the end they are bankrupt and waiting on the EU rescue package, so what's your point vele?
"And if you understood basic laws of money markets, and the loss of production by farms & money printing caused hyper inflation, you would understand that Cheeky Uncle Bob has himself to blame" this is the typical arrogance of ppl like yourself putting others in awkward position and blame them for it, Thixo bob yenza la land reform even strong!!!.
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MommaC
somaartakeitCoke in Zim was originally owned by an American firm (Atlanta something) but stopped producing there in 2008 / 2009. ABI took over the marketing there. They don't produce in Zim but market there. Its like saying that Lever Brothers is 'investing' in your house because you purchase Sunlight Liquid. Buying the product is not the same as having a manufacturing plant in your livingroom.
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mambaaai
check Zimbabwe out... hahahttp://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=5.59290322580644;ti=2010$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj1jiMAkmq1iMg;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj2tPLxKvvnNPA;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL%5Fn5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=295;dataMax=79210$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=19;dataMax=86$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=i256_t001800,,,,;modified=75
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The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit"dude f*ck off seriously.." are we back to personal insults? you shld warn me so I can meet you half way, as you know I always rise to the challenge and deliver satisfactorily.
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telling you to f*ck off is not an insult
its a request
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartekeit
"dude f*ck off seriously.." are we back to personal insults? you shld warn me so I can meet you half way, as you know I always rise to the challenge and deliver satisfactorily.
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"telling you to f*ck off is not an insult.."
okay then go f@k yourself then, and that's a complement!
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartekeitZimbabwe suffocated its own economy with failed policies. It chased investment away, driving its GDP to be as low as it is today.
When a country defaults on its debt, you cannot simply carry on giving it more debt unless that country has reforms to will allow it to pay off its debt in the future.
Greece has to go through reforms to recieve funds, Zimbabwe needed to do the same, but chose to stay bankrupt and now you want to pin the blame on the Brits?
We are not talking about Iraq
The typical stupidity from people like you who do know how the money markets work makes it impossible to debate at all
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsSomaartekeit
Zimbabwe suffocated its own economy with failed policies.
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this is your belief can we agree to disagree? for the rest I am tired so you can talk I whilst am taking a nap:-) wake me up when you are finished.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartekeitUK as its hitting its second recession, they will come crawling to Africa for her resources in the same way that former colonisers of Angola are being bailed out by Angola,
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Zimbabwe was in a recession in 2000 - 2009, South Africa went into recession in 2009........yet both these countries are so well endowed with natural resources..................When will you African's learn that your natural resources are sooooooooo overrated!
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
Zimbabwe suffocated its own economy with failed policies.
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this is your belief can we agree to disagree? for the rest I am tired so you can talk I whilst am taking a nap:-) wake me up when you are finished.
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i dont need to agree with me, i never once asked you to, infact i didnt even ask you to comment on any of my comments...........but clearly my comments really stick a pin through that air head of yours.
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somaartakeit
just for hte records Rothschilds have you noticed that its you and MC arguing against nationalisation? you realise that you in the minority? so why shld everyone else bow to your narrow views?Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
The-RothschildsSomaartekeit
UK as its hitting its second recession, they will come crawling to Africa for her resources in the same way that former colonisers of Angola are being bailed out by Angola,
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And when Angola runs out of oil, then what?
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mambaaai
@somertakeit nationalisation, mines , Zimbabwe.....health ummm we dont want to open a can of worms when we pop the little word diamonds into the list do we?umm because those Anglo workers really dont want to be involved there I promise.....
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"Zimbabwe was in a recession in 2000 - 2009, South Africa went into recession in 2009........yet both these countries are so well endowed with natural resources..................When will you African's learn that your natural resources are sooooooooo overrated" Whoosh my point went over the tank resting on your shoulders, I said UK is in second term recession since Sunday per CNN they had not recovered frm the prev bout, this means they will go further down on developed economic scales at the beginning of the year they were surpassed by the Brazilians putting them UK in 7th place now this really it doesn't look good for them, and in addition to this Scotland want to be independent and so is N.ireland, plus they can't loot the world anymore to further their nests, this tells me that they are not going to recover, pliz get the picture mr diploma, the mere fact you have to compare developing economy to a supposed developed economy leads me to concl that your economic degree was handed out to you.
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MommaC
somaartakeit:) You forgot Mambaaai and there is just you left on the other side of the fence.
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeitjust for hte records Rothschilds have you noticed that its you and MC arguing against nationalisation? you realise that you in the minority? so why shld everyone else bow to your narrow views?
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Never said i opposed nationalization.
If we can get a model similar to Norway or even partnerships that we see in Germany and France, then im actually for Nationalization.
There, i have given you my view, now leave me alone, you can go debate with "the majority" in peace.
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsThe-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"And when Angola runs out of oil, then what?" trust you to find scare crows everywhere, I said right this minute Angola is bailing out Portugal, and if GB was nice to its former colonies maybe we just might feel sorry for them and bail them out, but they must humble themselves first.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
:) You forgot Mambaaai and there is just you left on the other side of the fence.
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even with him on board you are still on the minority lol my take is that Mumbai is Patrice Motsepe, lol he is protecting his interests at which point he is the minority of the minority, lol
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds"There, i have given you my view, now leave me alone, you can go debate with "the majority" in peace" when we do that you minorities interfere by bringing your paranoid in the debate and trying to pass this facts.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartekeitI never compared any economies...............Im simply saying, all countries go through booms and recessions.............Brazil not too long ago suffered many years of depression during the South American financial crisis. Just like Zimbabwe with all its resources suffered a massive blow for 9 years. England has got the Euro crisis on its shoulders as majority of UK exports go to Europe, so when Europe recovers, the UK will also recover.
Indeed, Brazil overtook the UK in the size of economy but Brazil needs to be 6x larger than the UK economy in order to achieve same GDP per capita as the British. And such growth would require decades at current growth rates and we all know current growth rates do not stay the same forever.
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
The-Rothschilds
Somaartekeit
"And when Angola runs out of oil, then what?" trust you to find scare crows everywhere, I said right this minute Angola is bailing out Portugal, and if GB was nice to its former colonies maybe we just might feel sorry for them and bail them out, but they must humble themselves first.
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And how much is Angola giving Portugal?
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
"There, i have given you my view, now leave me alone, you can go debate with "the majority" in peace" when we do that you minorities interfere by bringing your paranoid in the debate and trying to pass this facts.
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You the one who seems to be paranoid mate
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mambaaai
somaartakeit just looking around the world where this has been done before.....people are people and there are rich , poor and prisons in all countries...
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somaartakeit
@mambaaaisomaartakeit just looking around the world where this has been done before.....
people are people and there are rich , poor and prisons in all countries...
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Mambaai all I am saying is that we shld not close our options, we shd adopt an open approach suggestions not down right shut the ideas out cause we claim they didnt' work elsewhere.
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mambaaai
somaar just take iti really believe to get the j0b done efficiently for the w3alth to be realised the investor (the one who makes it w0rk) must put his m0ney where his m0uth is and then he will make it w0rk...otherwise , end up with government employee types picking their n0se all day...and a few f@t guys in purple suits...with wabenzi. and that depends completely on your alighnment with THE PARTY and that my friend is not democracy.....and the whole thing changes from serving the people to a cadre self serving fest.......and that is not the best for the majority
its obvious, that movie has played itself out like that many times before in the world....
so regarding your Patrice Motsepe comment its either a type like him who has a vested interst in making it work its that or a f@t zooma nephew type..... and now we know why juju tried to hang in there
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BOSS-KEKE
KWAAAAALWAAAAAAAAAAAAALWAAAAAAAAAAAUNTIL WE GET BENT BY THE ANC AND SHAFTED
WHILE THEY BENEFIT FROM RAIDING THE MINES BECOMING BILLIONAIRES WE WILL STILL SUFFER
THE WORDS THEY SAY IS JUST WOOL OVER YOUR EYES
WE WONT SEE A CENT FROM NATIONALISATION, ANC IS DESTINED TO RUIN OUR COUNTRY
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mambaaai
boss - keke agreed..... if these guys proved they were trust worthy.... ok it might work.... but eish...its all blah blah blah no delivery and lots and lots too many evidences of pigs in the troughReport Abuse
MommaC
somaartakeitIn all fairness, if a square wheel didn't work anywhere else in the world, the chances of it suddenly being the most logical shape for SA is unlikely at the very least. Learning from the mistakes of others is never a waste of time.
I still feel that everyone is focusing on the wrong point. The mines are not what we should be wanting, it is the minerals from those mines that we should be wanting. Instead of selling the minerals off at bargain basement prices, we should be working the minerals here and selling the finished products to the rest of the world. That will create jobs, extra revenue for the country and a chance for economic freedom for everyone - not just the politically affiliated few
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The-Rothschilds
Anyways everyone, im off, thanks for the debateReport Abuse
somaartakeit
The-RothschildsSomaartekeit
"Brazil not too long ago suffered many years of depression during the South American financial crisis" Yet Brazil surpassed GB for 6th spot on world big economies, and you know the scary part is that they think some miracle will transform their economy, cause all their lives they have been ruthlessly taking from others to build their nest, now they have no influence not in the EU not in Africa or its former colonies, hence I said they must nice to uncle Bob maybe he will let them come back in...lol
"Just like Zimbabwe with all its resources suffered a massive blow for 9 years..." this was man made by British and US and alliance partners and maybe also Bob a little bit.
"England has got the Euro crisis on its shoulders...." hahahahahahahaaaaaaa now that is so funny, did you come up with this all by yourself? the EU are looking fwd to the day UK removes itself from the EU they are considered passangers and non contributors on the EU platform, even Scotland want out of this liaison. SO please don't make it out as if EU's economy depends on the UK cause really Germans, Austrians, Poland whose ecnomies have been growing will be mad at you if you they hear you saying this silly British talk.
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mambaaai
MommaC agreed.... we import chains back from Italy made with our gold....at leasst the gold goes out at the world market prices...diamonds we largley w0rk the prices it is said....I have a c0ncern abour ferro alloy metals....
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The-Rothschilds
MommaCSomaartakeit problems are all racial
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somaartakeit
@MommaCI still feel that everyone is focusing on the wrong point. The mines are not what we should be wanting, it is the minerals from those mines that we should be wanting. Instead of selling the minerals off at bargain basement prices, we should be working the minerals here and selling the finished products to the rest of the world. That will create jobs, extra revenue for the country and a chance for economic freedom for everyone - not just the politically affiliated few
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now you're talking...
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mambaaai
MCBut too true we need factories here producing finished products because thats where the r3al w3alth is....and the biggest v0lume of j0bs....
and like our rooibos tea our clever little minority brothers spoke to their br0thers and sisters in europe and now is a booming trade s3lling to them...
like our grape production they did the same turned it into wine....
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsMommaC
Somaartakeit problems are all racial
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You are slandering my good name all this bcoz I disagree with your views on Zim, don't be childish mlungu shame.
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somaartakeit
btw Mambaai Patrice is not trying to make it work, he is buttering his slice of the bread that is why he donates to the anc, he want them to let him alone have control of the mines (by extension we@lth) generated from such, all this money he is wasting on politicians shld be channeled towards social development projects, at least he wld be making a real investment that will benefit this coutnry in the long run, damn he cld like Ophrah Winfrey did, build a school or technical college to help our youth, but no he wants to give it to the ppl who already have the money,and you know when I see that, I want to shout loud and say nationalise that mine.Report Abuse
MommaC
mambaaaiDo you know that we sel1 fishing rights to China and tin to China and then import tinned fish from China? How daft is that?
A number of years ago there was a company called Commargue in Harrismith. They made those big shiipping containers. A rival company opened up in India and Commargue went bang. The reason was because India gets OUR metal cheeaper than we do.
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartekeitI never said the EU depends on England you idiot, i said the UK is in recession because its exports have been hit by the Euro crisis and their financial services are still struggling from the Financial crisis that started on Wall Street.
Brazil's population is 4x greater than the UK, it only makes sense that the economy would of eventually surpassed the UK, France and will surpass Germany as well. It has to do with population. But does this make Brazil and its massive population that still for many decades will live in war zone ghettos better off than any of these Europeans, nope!
Christ you really are a airhead.
Im still waiting to hear from you, how much did Angola give to Portugal?
Im also waiting for your mad theory on how the US and the UK destroyed the Zimbabwean economy.
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MommaC
The-RothschildsShe is normally quite a lot less aggressively racial about stuff but I think you bring out the worst in her :)
A bit like Sinu and Jaja.
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
MommaC
Somaartakeit problems are all racial
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You are slandering my good name all this bcoz I disagree with your views on Zim, don't be childish mlungu shame.
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haha the white man kicked your a55 in Africa and now you are as bitter as can be. Well im very sorry that the white people did this to you, can you accept my apology on behalf of them?
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The-Rothschilds
MommaCThe-Rothschilds
She is normally quite a lot less aggressively racial about stuff but I think you bring out the worst in her :)
A bit like Sinu and Jaja.
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Somaartakeit and Meercat-is-a-cave-beast the same person?
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MommaC
The-RothschildsOh HELL NO. Crazy Rorri is someone completely different.
Somaartakeit was also on Times back then but was under a different name - I'll let the Princess tell you what her handle was if she desires.
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somaartakeit
@Rothschild you can google how much Angola loaned to portugal but what I know is that they are helping them out, hence they haven't asked for the EU bail out like Spain/Greece for instance.The UK is not in crisis bcoz of the EU they are in crisis cause amongst others they overspent on military as a direct result of their obsession to overpower and conquer the world violently, unfortunately non of these conquests bring money home, and that the UK citizens live beyond their means and not servicing their bank debts such as bonds and other consumable, and London is the main money laundering capital of the West, how long did you think they will remain in business for?
On Brazil they adopted under president Lula good policies which helped their economy to grow and surpass most emerging and soem developed economies, wish SA cld use its association with BRICS to grow our economy even more.
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The-Rothschilds
MommaCRorri was beyond crazy
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somaartakeit
@The-RothschildsMommaC
Rorri was beyond crazy - I did not agree with him on a lot of things, but today looking at guys like you I can imagine why guys like Rorri wld behave the way he did, damn he has to deal with the likes of you everyday, as I've said the arrogance of ppl is enough to turn anyone into a proper monster, cause you are not brign yourselves to be rational unless your butts are kicked to curb, so Rorri used full force round house kicking...lol
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MommaC
The-RothschildsJirrie, you can say that again. The dude was completely barking.
Strangely enough, he turned out to be a very successful business man. Goes to show that crazy can be hidden
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The-Rothschilds
SomaartakeitNo, i want you to tell me how much did Angola give to Portugal?
I want to hear about Zimbabwe as well. (stop avoiding this question)
Money is laundered throughout the world.
Ofcourse the UK is in trouble because of the EU, UK factory production has dropped, exports have dropped...........the 2008 housing bumble has put a dent in UK house prices and house prices all around the world for that matter.........and many british consumers financed their spending through taking bonds on their homes because there was a belief that house prices would always rise and hence a bank would always recover the loan. With consumption & exports been sluggish and austerity measures hitting government spending, it only makes sense that the UK would be in recession.
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MommaC
somaartakeitWell he used to kick your backside from one end of the comments section to the other so I have no idea why he is now your hero. Maybe you just miss his perverted foul mouth?
Where am I being arrogant? Because I have an opinion on this that differs from yours? That isn't being arrogant - maybe opinionated but certainly not arrogant. You are just frustrated because you have not given any concrete facts that would show a benefit to the 'poor' if nationalisation was implemented.
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The-Rothschilds
somaartakeit@The-Rothschilds
MommaC
Rorri was beyond crazy - I did not agree with him on a lot of things, but today looking at guys like you I can imagine why guys like Rorri wld behave the way he did, damn he has to deal with the likes of you everyday, as I've said the arrogance of ppl is enough to turn anyone into a proper monster, cause you are not brign yourselves to be rational unless your butts are kicked to curb, so Rorri used full force round house kicking...lol
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expressing your day in day out hatred for the British is not rational thinking or debate. Especially since half the nonsense you post on here is nothing more than Zeitgeist conspiracy theories.
My nickname Rothschild must itch you to the bone.
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The-Rothschilds
MommaCThe-Rothschilds
Jirrie, you can say that again. The dude was completely barking.
Strangely enough, he turned out to be a very successful business man. Goes to show that crazy can be hidden
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I thought he worked at Standard Bank?
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16-12-1838
@ somaartakeit - I refer back to your opening statment "the ppl in Congo apparently got tired of waiting for the gov to force anglo to do the right thing, they've simply taken over the mining apparently some of the rebel groups are so organised they have machines and sk!lled ppl to operate them, anglo is standing breathless and contemplating what to do, in SA we are meek we get screwed and we say thank you b@@s"- I can presume you have never visited the DRC, if you have you would certainly not be making these statements. Decades of w@r and c0rruption have ensured a total c0llapse of all local economy and infrastructure. Most rural areas are controlled by predat0ry militi@ (mostly sponsored by Burundi, Rwanda and Uganda - not Europe!) who then sell the raw materials to covert Ch1nese and Ind1an companies (off-shore). They f0rce the men through direct or indirect vi0lence to w0rk for less than pe@nuts, just enough to keep them alive. Their daughters and wives are then r@ped and phys1cally m@imed (hands ch0pped off mainly). Many miners per1sh through total lack of a safe w0rking environment, ie: cave-ins and exposure to t0xic or radi0active substances. The conditions and methods are b@rbaric and pre-historic.
So judging by the ever increasing level of c0rruption and klept0cracy in SA, as well as my own personal first hand experiences in the DRC and in other African countries less f0rtunate than us; I can categorically state that nationalisation in SA can only mean much w0rse conditions for the p0or in our country.
There are much better alternatives!!!!!
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MommaC
The-RothschildsHe is an actuary. I guess he was with (wasn't it Absa?) the bank for a time or doing inhouse work for them but he has his own business now
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The-Rothschilds
16-12-1838
dont hold your breathe with Somaartakeit
This is the same person who wants us to follow the Zimbabwean route because Mugabe's style did not chase any investors away.
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The-Rothschilds
MommaCThe-Rothschilds
He is an actuary. I guess he was with (wasn't it Absa?) the bank for a time or doing inhouse work for them but he has his own business now
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Scary stuff that a lunatic like that is walking amongst us.................i guess his business partners are certainly not Jews and Negroes hahaha (no offense to any Negroes)
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somaartakeit
@16-12-1838 I have made that comment analysing what happens if land reform/nationalisation is avoided that is not discussed and concluded upon so everyone knows where they stand, I have not said the economy there is booming as a result of mine grabs taking place there, I also made that point to highlight how Anglo has been reckless in its handling social development projects and I further said, if they continue with being this careless that scenario cld be repeated here, no where did I say this is to support that economy there is booming, I said its a risky situation which must nipped on the bud insteasd of beign avoided, so please don't tell me stuff I already know some of which are my issues which I have lobbied the AU to deal with human destruction in Congo and Sudan amongst others.Report Abuse
The-Rothschilds
Anyways guysgoing home
cheers
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somaartakeit
@The-Rothschilds16-12-1838
dont hold your breathe with Somaartakeit
This is the same person who wants us to follow the Zimbabwean route because Mugabe's style did not chase any investors away.
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the only thing ppl like you are good at is twisting what's been said, nowhere did I say we must follow Zim land reform model, but you are h3ll bent on scandalising my name cause I have disagreements with you, that is not debatign that is mobbing, and you as an economy degreed person, you shld know better that won't win you or any one the day/argument, but facts will.
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MommaC
The-RothschildsLOL
Pretty much guaranteed !
Drive safe
I'm off too. Time to go make sure I don't get mafutu :)
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somaartakeit
The-Rothschilds"expressing your day in day out hatred for the British is not rational thinking or debate.." I wldn't waste my energy h@ting the British cause really I have better things to do with my time
" Especially since half the nonsense you post on here is nothing more than Zeitgeist conspiracy theories" like you all of us are posting conspiracy theories based on the articles published, do you have a problem with opposing views to your beliefs/theories, its this b@@s mentality which makes guys like me to treat ppl like you with contempt!!.
"My nickname Rothschild must itch you to the bone" I don't give a damn abou your nickname it means nada to me and in the big scope of things, so stop flattering yourself.
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somaartakeit
@MommaCsomaartakeit
"Well he used to kick your backside from one end of the comments section to the other so I have no idea why he is now your hero...." there you go again puttign words in my mouth did I say he was a hero more than I say I cld understand why in some cases he behaved the way he did?
"Maybe you just miss his perverted foul mouth?" Actually I don't miss strangers, I didn't know the guy so hadn't enough time to accumulate feelings that cld result in me missing him or any of the ppl I interact with in the forum.
"Where am I being arrogant? Because I have an opinion on this that differs from yours? That isn't being arrogant - maybe opinionated but certainly not arrogant. You are just frustrated because you have not given any concrete facts that would show a benefit to the 'poor' if nationalisation was implemented"
we all confer our opinions on the basis of what's on the article and our understand of day to day SAn politics, it is not a fact that nationalisation will fail or succeed in SA cause no one can tell that for sure, its a concept worth debating, but you guys are paranoid abt it why?
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16-12-1838
@ somaartakeitI am not here to argue my friend and I stand beside you when it comes to opening up the debate but IMO most of your argument is based on idealistic scenarios, you must appreciate that we need to be realistic and work within the confines of our history and current socio-political circumstances. It is also naive to believe we, as conscientious middle class S. Africans, can f1ght a head on b@ttle against the gre_ed of multi-national corporations and p0werful govts. Change is a slow process, even under the most ideal conditions and I know we both agree that conditions here in SA are less that ideal.
Isn't it better to w0rk towards a win/win situation with foreign investors and those who hold economic power locally, than to threaten with sticks and stones? We need to ensure co-existence with those who hold all the capital, educate and encourage them about their social responsibility. Ultimately to ensure that our youth and natural resources are nurtured and protected, not expl0ited. We cannot do this if we have a corrupt self-serving govt at the helm. We need unselfish and responsible leaders first and foremost, otherwise all talk of uplifting the p0or will be just hot air!
I sincerely commend you on lobbying the AU regarding the human attr0cities on our beloved continent, Africa needs more people like you.
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somaartakeit
@16-12-1838 I really appreciate how much it must have taken you to type this message to me and you still fail to see the point that I was making, that Anglo is repeating same mistakes it made in Congo, by falling behind on social development projects RESPONSIBILITY, which resulted in rebels there taking over some of the mines, this is not an idea of mine but a reality happening in Congo which threatens to ruin their business interests there,I also of firm belief that IF investors like Anglo don't do right by the ppl in teh communities where they are mining here at home, there is a possibility that these ppl will revolt against them, so why not curtail this before it happens by addressing social development programms where they are operating, so that everyone wins, cause as things stand the ones on the losing side, will align themselves with rougue politicians shouting 'nationalisation' cause THEY not ME don't know that these poltiicians are doing this for political expedience.
I have further said, as a nation, we shld trust in ourselves and open a discussion on these major issues, that way we are calling the bluff of guys like Mathale and other rougues and in the process we empower ourselves, so we know what must be done, and urge our leaders in that direction, why do we instead allow ourselves to be held to ransom by radical politicians who are hijackign our issues? has nothing been learnt in Zim scenario that the ppl left teh land reform issue too late and Mugabe grabbed it to keep himself in power longer than he needed to?
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somaartakeit
I also said we have lost a lot of time the ppl are getting edgy when it comes to deliverance of issues, so how likely it is in SA that we will find ourselves in the situation we could have avoided just by engaging one another openly and honesty iro land reform/nationalisation, since this issues came to public platform they have been used by anc politicians to play power games amongst themselves so I say its high time that ordinary SAns are pro-active and take this debate to another level and finally concl the way forward, but some especially minority seem to have this irrational fear to discuss issues, and it is this fear that is holding the progress, cause really we shouldn't be held to ransom by rougue politicians who want to abuse our issues for self interests,I don't believe that both Malema or Mathale or even Zuma have ppl's interests to heart they are making all these grandstanding remarks for their p!ssing contests, unfortunately for SA to some these are real issues, so I say lets take the power and get this ball rolling, and the ppl of SA must draft a road map as to where we go with these projects, cause I don't want us to be at the mercy of this politicians, I really don't, what I want to see is that they are delivering servides, timeously and consistently not ONLY during electioneering year. I want them to understand that they are accountable to the ppl and that they are not entitled to lead us it is a privilege for them to given this opportunity.
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16-12-1838
@ somaartakeitYou are right, I'm really sorry. I now understand the point you were making and I wholeheartedly agree. I certainly do not support what Anglo and companies like them are doing, they have to provide much more in the way of social developments both here and further North. It is inexcusable that these multi-nationals can get away with so much and pr0fit so highly off the suffer1ng of the p0werless.
I like your thinking - by bypassing all the jackals in politics and entering into debate with each other, without the interference of those with alterior motives, we can definitely emp0wer ourselves for the good of all in SA. But how do we start this with so much in_security and mistru$t of one another?
We have centuries of bad history to overcome. How do we convince our respective ethnic groups to overcome their fe@rs, to put our differences aside when we are surrounded by misunder$tanding and h@tred? The we@lth divide is not unique to Africa either, it would be fantastic if we could develop a new socio-political model that is transferable globally (this planet needs that!) - unfortunately us humans are not known for our fairness and compassion...and with a rapidly growing global population, gre_ed induced competition is only going to get much fiercer.
You see, you and I are not too different from one another ;)
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Osirus
"Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government controlled Iscor? Why did the investors not leave when the apartheid government established Foskor in Phalaborwa? Why did the investors not leave when President Robert Mugabe implemented his economic policies," he asked.He added: "They cannot leave because they want our chrome, they want our platinum and they want our gold."
Mathale said nationalising the mines would ensure the freedom that was achieved by Azanians..
"Applause" "Applause"... Well sead my brother very well sead... :) And in your face!!! to all the short sighted and Astonishingly ignorant!! neo colonialist white supremacist supporters out there.
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16-12-1838
@ OsirusEver heard of Aurora mine?
No! ...then look it up..
A perfect example of how nationalising mines will NOT ensure your economic free_dom.
Without trying to be too short sighted and astonishingly ignorant...Good Luck in the queue behind the neo colonialist white supremacist UN Aid truck.
Don't be deluded brother, only your own hard work will ensure any form of economic freedom!
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somaartakeit
@16-12-1838 the ONLY thing (IMO) to help us overcome mistrust and get with the pressing issues needing to be debated and put to rest is for those spearheading this to be honest and be committed to seek resolution that is fair for all involved, this is possible if we are all interesting to sustaining so called fr33dom gained in 1994 and empower our ppl,We must not let fear demobilising us from moving forward with the development plan/strategy, of course there will always be those h3ll bent on destabilising the process cause they are benefiting from our disunity/mistrust of one another they are exploiting these fears to further divide us, whilst we can never be friends and lovey dovey but surely we can all work together for a better SA for us ALL.
My friend I have very fundamental and to a large degree grave disagreements with the anc regime, but h3ll, if they can show a little bit of commitment to work for the ppl instead of self service, I will wholeheartedly work together with them to achieve this goal.
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somaartakeit
@16-12-1838 btw its interesting that you bring the example of Aurora into the picture, look my friend, the 700+ families disempowered by the Aurora corrupt glut are prolly amongst those calling for this nationalisatino these are the very ppl the Mathales are appealing to, God help us if these ppl are desperate enough they will then be ripe for exploitation (power games) which is why I say, more than ever it is imperative that we get this elephant in the room out, and openly discuss the status of land reform as well as nationalization,But what must not happen is use Aurora as a scare tactic against nationalisation, cause Aurora is not being nationalised it had private owners namely, zuma nephew and mandela grandson they made the f@kup, and we must be confident in ourselves to call them to order without fear or favouring the tribes they come from or social status of the families they come from.
BTW you had not reason to apologise, cause you haven't offended me:-), I took your comment on my stride, I also took on my stride that as this land reform and nationalisation are emotive, tempers are bound to raise above sometimes boiling point, so I am big woman, I can handle this stuff, cause all that I want is for us to get to the bottom of things, that way we can never be held to ransom by crook politicians, most importantly we must be in a position where majority own at least 51% of our national resources, this is normal and reasonable expectation. I know that Indonesia is one of the countries which has this process and they like Nigeria are poised to join upcoming super powers.
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somaartakeit
rothschilds I thought this might interest you, cause it conjures up with what i was saying abt Angola bailing out its former coloniser, of course you didnt' believe me cause you always think the worse of Africa.h t t p://www.slate.com/blogs/the_reckoning/2011/11/23/portugal_begs_former_colony_angola_for_a_bailout_.html
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BoetieInBrasil
ZIMBABWE, VENEZUELA, CUBA....SOUTH AFRICA?Report Abuse
muzaba
Why did the investors not leave when President Robert Mugabe implemented his economic policies," he asked!!!!!!!!!OH MY GODIn which world in this man living?
He thinks Zimbabwe is an good example of economic properity
That is why he nothing wrongwhen he runs down the provinces finances
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mambaaai
somaartakeit... what do you believe are the practical differences are between the current model relating to mines and what would be different if the mine were nationalised. in what ways would it benifit the masses of people?Report Abuse
mambaaai
somaartakeit and then in practical terms if the mines were nationalised they would suffer from all the inefficiencies that happen in governemnt departments people sent home for deisciplinary stuff and never being fired , this cant happen in a pvt company because it would lead towards bankruptcy....and etcReport Abuse
STEILOOP
vina Mathale and Juju viva. i am supporting u guyz 100%.Report Abuse
STEILOOP
Ecomic freedom that's what we need.Report Abuse
PleaseGetReal
STEILOOPEcomic freedom that's what we need.
Everybody got it, just get off your ass and work.
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