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Open letter to South Africa’s students‚ universities and government‚ represented by Minister in the .
By Sowetan LIVE | Aug 29, 2014 |
COMMENTS [ 204 ]
Usashadelani kulamalanga sekuyabheda
ja its a waste of time
even colour3ds and Indi@ns are demanding a lobola if an African man wants to marry them. I remember my friend was complaining that her coloured girlfriend's father said he also wants lobola for her daughter. kubi madoda, asizidleleni nje ikhekhe sishiye kanjalo. bakhona abazo bhatala.
ja I second you mkhabela, plus labantu balahlela wonke umuntu, wena uyabhatala mina ngihla mahala, whats the use
Lol Kunzima ukufa uyimpohlo
Yet it was the kasi kids who invented "vat en sit"
Nigerians a busy marrying south African ladies and what now there is an increase mos
Truth even Somali's and Pakistanis are in the lead
Nigerians are really trying to give our ladies hope.
come on love nothing like that, they are just using them to be §A citizens
You are right Hutton, but if it makes the woman happy, why not.
Her study, conducted on 40 couples, also found that the price of ilobolo now ranges from R35000 to R100 000, a far cry from average 20 000 paid in 1998
It depends the first consideration is qualification , childrens and morals
The decline is not really caused by ilobola, getting married these days is like digging your own grave especially for man, women do not know their role as women anymore they know drinking, cheating blah blah blah
Uyamlobola xa gqiba ayojola nohlukane ayisabuyi back nale lobola funeka uphinde uqalele phansi
ja abe seyihamba no 50% of your assets emvakoko
Mgijimi...Dumela Abut,,,,men do not know their role either, but the report is spot on. Lobola is one of the main reason for decline in marriage. Sometimes, women stupendously, pay their own lobola cause the poor man just cant afford.
for stingy men maybe
If she is willing to help and it is a measure of her character which is admirable. Secondly money exchanged during the negotiations often goes into paying for ceremonies that follow the lobolo negotiations; I know my wife's family used it to pay for the marriage ceremony itself so if she helps she is also helping herself. The problem then becomes some women are so obsessed with power dynamics a man's financial limitations can often be his undoing but then again it depends on the character of the individual you are getting married to, a real woman will respect you regardless.
Short guy, do you know anything about marriage? Do you even have a girlfriend?
I know everything, lobola is only an issue to stingy men,even loaded guys do not bother by getting married coz of how things have turned
with these many beautiful hungry women out there...its very hard to get married...the concept of marriage is good...it grounds a man and brings respect...many people are getting married for the wrong reasons though and thats why they never last...the cost factor is also detrimental...why pay R50k for a second with thousands of mileage...? mxim
Suffocate and Nicky fingers again.....
A piece of paper isn't what makes people 'married' and there aren't enough cows in the world to buy you real love.
ja money is not an issue even loaded guys do not get married these days
Its because MEN are becoming WOMEN these dayz!! mxm!!
your man has become a woman? sorry dear next time be wise to see that a guy is gay
No it is because girls are opening their legs to every Tom and Harry
second that, once u say her u look nice she opens her legs so we dont have women in sa
Lobola is very expensive now lately. Cash cows! Mxm!!
Shredder....Good morning...its amazing what parents look at to determine the price of their daughter. I think it is all about how much money they can pocket at the end of the day.
Education playes a major role in determining a Lobola
Mshove,,,yes, Good Morning...Education plays a major role. But parents forget that they educate their daughters cause they playing their ROLE as parents not to want to claim that money back from groom to-be. That`s why some of our black men, treat women like slaves in marriage. For them, the 'bought' the woman. So, he can do whatever he likes whenever. The very same parents will tell their daughter gore mosadi wa tiisetsa. That`s bull(sorry to say). It is up to us, the educated black women, to stand up against this abuse of women.
lobola is not an issue
When my niece got lobolad, she pleaded with us not to come up with some crazy amounts. She is educated and has a good paying job.
and when are you getting married
After you get married. Don't forget to invite me and VendaLizard.
I don't attend midget weddings
Lol I would not also stand to see someone selling avocados at my wedding
Good morning...the report is spot on. Lobola had indeed been commercialized and many, many men cannot afford to pay this. this is one of our cultural practices that needs to be revised. Often, parents expect to be paid back by the groom to- be, because they say they raised their daughter. But, isn't it what parents must do?
if they can remove the " ...till death do us part" clause i will go for it
I am worried I do not see the old one in all the articles, with this cold fron anything might have happened to him, you know old people and health issues
You are stirring shit with your foot again ne? Yekela umkhulu.
Eish Big Jim you have a heart of gold stru. I think El Presidente RoX has gone to have his Zimmer frame serviced. It happens every 5000 km.
Lol u killed me
You know Big jim from Under the Dome? LOL @Zimmer frame.
U S.Cold ushaywe yi Phuza thursday
Any woman earning above R20000.00 should pay her own lobola, then problem solved.
JTumelo....morning,,,,so that you can use that against that woman? I think, a woman should never, never pay her own lobola.
@Bucs4life. Then who going to marry all this empowered woman, cause they are expensive mos.
No one, Tumelo. That`s why marriage figures have declined.
This women ain't loyal
Venda....morning....are men loyal?
maybe gays are loyal
Cohabiting is a way of life. The biggest pimped ever lived once said: If you know what you've got (in terms of woman)you ain't got nothing".
LateralThinking...Morning....I agree with that. Co-habiting works better vthajn marrying cause there are no strings attached. Also, you get to see your would-be wife/husband before committing to them. I think this is good. The problem with this practice, in our culture, is that parents discourage this and they will not recognize it. In fact, one can be excluded from many family functions. However, it takes for a very strong character to convince parents otherwise.
seems the survey was done on sowetan blog,is there one who is/who once married here.LOL.I support marriage for 1 reason,kids growing up with both parents are likely to be better kids.this single parent is one thing destroying our kids.
Obama was raised by a single parent but he better than most childrens who were raised by both parents
Lule...morning....in many, many instance, some children grow up with both parents, but you find that one of the parents was abusive or a drunkard. Child grows up witnessing that. So, either way. A child needs a loving environment NOT necessarily both parents.
Its because women are becoming too "white" lately, no man can tolerate a white tendency(bullying) , if woman goes back to black again...... then we can marry them
Pelo-ya-ntja - Shame, are women bullying you dude? Perhaps you should shack up with another dude instead :P
But why should we get married in the first place??? or paying Lobola for that matter
Too expensive to pay for used goods...women these days are like jacob zuma..they only value your pockets and when it`s done they show you a middle finger
don't have issues paying lobola, even in cows or cash, but the quality of life in marriage has dropped, men and women don't take into consideration the things that attracted them to one another, find men grow big stomachs, and women gets rounder and still eat amagwinya... aitch!
I was also asked to pay a heavy amount for my woman, money that I don't have. They think because my parents are financially well off that that is the same for me. My parents worked very hard and for a long time to be where they are. For my son's sake I decided to save for the shortfall amount, I want my son to take my surname.
Chief are sure its your son ?
Don't call me chief chief.
How much did they ask for?
that's nothing. i can even donate
then we can take turns with that woman
Dude how the f uck are you going to donate? That is more than your annual income.
that's your problem, i am not an employee. i pay salaries to graduates like you.
Are you self-employed or salaried employee?
self employed baba, you can come work for me
good family R40k? nothing people are paying above R100k now
Unfortunately I do not have that kind of money. I am not a millionaire and that family won't settle for less than R40k. If it wasn't for my son I was gona let them marry their child and find someone else, but I want my boy to grow up with both his mom and dad.
mom and dad my foot
Two months back I went on first date with an empowered woman. I tell you my bank account was crying at the end of the day, its like money just disappeared from my account. I also had to
disappear by not answering calls anymore. I will stick to simple girls.
Kikikiiii....why are you dating empowered woman if you don't know your story why?
Lol it served you right,
It was lesson well learned, It do even remember the restaurant name at Bedfordview center.
Ohhh God what a lesson shame sorry broer.
LOL... Hade Tumelo, LOL... I know exactly what you are talking about Chief.
damn... its time you changed jobs or go to business..
Lobola has nothing to do with how educated a lady is , One pays lobola on moral basis like how the lady was raised and how she conducts herself not these girls who open up to any men and have dozen of babies and then they expect you to pay lobola for them
these women are a flook nowadays
What is flook you f ucken peasant?
hey fokof wena maan
Answer me you f ucking k werekwere, what is a flook?
you are also a flook
ok, u got a crush on each other, eish gays!
what are you Maduvula?
Lobola is not an issue here, lack of loyalty and honesty from both parties is the problem. wife is shagging her manager or pastor while husband is busy with the PA and all the young hotties in town. I repeat lobola is an issue only to stingy man
Mgijimi....lobola is not the ONLY issue yes, but it is the MAIN issue. There are other issues- we marry for wrong reasons, and we are extremely materialistic.
ja women want to control men as well, have issues when you bro comes for a weekend but she wont hesitate to bring her siblings for weeks
marriage is just overated
i blame women...
women wants something different always, men are predictable always..... there's the problem.
i blame facebook,whaApp,BBM and all these social,dating sites...........people are just enjoying joling,period.tasting all the Anacondas and pots around the world is what people are doing.
I met an engaged 24 year old woman in the club in Pta, she came to me and told how she likes me and I told her that you have a ring but she said the guy is in Rustenburg she does not know what he does there so why should she wait for someone he is not sure whether he is loyal, after that I tapped her several times until she told me shez losing interest in the guy shez engaged to, then I also ran. I repeat lobola is not an issue but conduct is the cause of decline.
lies? boss in Pta married woman are tapped by us
Certainly NOT you, short man. LOL
wena you tapped my medunsa nyatsi boy, I know where you staying here in Pta and soweto, watch your back I haven't forgot about you
LOL. Gijima mgijimi.
Mgijimi yeka abafazi amanye amadoda
You are playing with trouble man, when she is married you are directly disrespecting the husband whether he knows about the affair or not, people have been shot for far less my brother.
Why not just get with the times and remove lobola?
Sin, morning ....good question. I am one of those blacks who would like to have this practice removed. It was ok then. Not so now.
Buc4life - Good morning Buc. Weddings already cost so much, lobola on top of it is financial suicide.
I say address symptoms of abuse but you can't forego culture just because some people abuse it. Some of us respect and understand what purpose the custom serves, it will be tragic if we were to lose our identity and customs like this.
Dzel....Culture that does not change with the times is doomed.
....and therein lies the problem; you think we need to change for the sake of change? Change to what exactly, white weddings????
What do white weddings mean to you vele, what is the meaning behind them?
Western culture envy and blind adoption can be dangerous especially when you stand to lose an understanding of who you are and where you and your people come from. I don't mean to insult you but you sound like one of those people that address their kids in English because you think that is the fashionable thing to do.
Dzel...Culture that does not move with the times has to change. Nowhere ,in my comments do I mention White weddings. The topic is about Lobola not white weddings but you always have to measure yourself against whites. Talk about inferior complex....hAHAHAHA...LOL. is that really what you think of me? Anyway, im so used to your insults or whatever they are to you. Bring them on.
I don't measure myself against whites, if you know me you'd know I am not a conformist but it is a fact that a lot of our people had white envy and you sound like a prime candidate.
On what argument do you base the statement that culture has to change; change to what exactly, for what reason and what will be achieved by the change?
I don't expect you to have answers as you seem to think people should change for the sake of changing and that is the extent of your reasoning.
I heard cloureds pay labola by a half jag of mellow-wood
I would be happy with that practiced being removed also. it has been blown out of proportion. It is now a business transaction.
ja I have always knew you stingy,ufuna ukudla mahala
No man. The problem is people have lost the essence of lobola and they have turned it into something else. Unfortunately, one can never get married without paying it. With uncles and fathers like you, no man can escape without paying. Coloreds is the way to go. haha. I must visit Newclare and Westbury very often.
LOL. No man. You know that song, "vat en sit"? Ehhh buti. tla kwano, tla kwano. Aa wa nyala kampo o ja hela?
LOL JTumelo....empowered women will ask you to take her car for service,fill up the tank......the simple Kasi girls aint that expensive.
Mshana kasi girls are hot,sexy, beautiful and affordable, the expensive thing you can do for a kasi woman is R500 hairstyle then you take her to Mr price and spend R300,life is simple
R 500 for hairstyle? Mina ngingamtshela ukuthi I am not the one umfundise ama hair piece, R 500...? Hell no!!! I once dated someone who had a young child many years ago, the day she asked me for imali yebisi (powdered milk for the child) was the last time she saw me. I asked her where the baby father at when she is asking me for money, it’s not like I was rooting them on when they were making the baby.
To this day I can't be a step-father and raise someone else's kid, I just can't. I don’t get involved in relationships so I can be the minister of finance
sometimes you have to meet your other half somewhere. help her out. after all, at night she serves you well
Life teaches important lessons my brother, badlokudla left right and centre amantombazane aseJozi uma ulele, buza uMandla Mthembu ukuthi bamenzani with his flashy ways. Of course over time you get to know umuntu and you start worrying less about ukudliwa then things change but ungathi sizwana for one week and sowufuna ukungenza i full-time step-father or uma ubona mina ubona imali izihambela.
Besides I have a moral objective to fake hair and wearing someone else's DNA on your head, I cannot think of a worse expression of self-loathing as that effectively says you wish to be someone or something else and you are not satisfied with how you were created. I have let relationships with serious potential because of self-image and how one presented themselves to the world.
ja ndoda iintombi zasejozi zizakutya uvele ithambo xa ubhayiza,1st day sebefuna ukutshwamna I hit and run ndixakeke gqith for utyiwa kude kangaka
Don't let them bakutshe yihlo especially those abafuna amaGuarana as if that is what they drink every day. eJozi you go into a ralationship eyes wide open oitherwise uzabe ahlekisa ngawe kumaChimmie akhe telling them ukuthi ulele kanjani and ukucuthe kangakanani. They actually use that word, ukucuthile as if you are a chicken.
Hehehehe.....nanso ke majimbos
Lol ustingy d-zel am making an example with 500 unlike those classy woman who would want you to have brazilian hair they do not afford. As for step kids I do not spend on them either fathers must be responsible
Yoh that is R 500 too much if you ask me... I am not stingy but I care about what I spend my money on.
mgijimi.....Blueroom Club i guess.Lots of married,engaged ladies hunting men there.
Jaaaa son wena you know very well what am talking about, sh!t happens there son
First of all one can’t use “lobola” to measure the rate of marriages, 40 is not a big enough sample for these kinds of conclusions and I would have used Home Affairs register as a better indication of measure marriage rates.
Secondly if you are getting married to a family that demands R 100,000 for their child then you are marrying into a family of leaches and they will find a way to milk you dry one way or the other, don’t blame lobola for getting married into a greedy family.
Lastly one has to understand that lobola is but one of a number of steps or events that make up an African marriage, it is wrong to look at lobola in isolation and out of context. Lobola serves a much bigger purpose than just an exchange of money; lobola is meant to bring families closer together and is part of a custom to exchange gifts between the families and in part to compensate for the gift of a wife the husband’s family is foregoing, a wife who would have continued being a helping hand to her maternal family. The intent is never to buy or put a price on the bride so people who talk about the level of education for example misunderstand the very concept of lobola as the intent is never to recoup money spent educating a child, a parent educates their child to give them a brighter future and not as an investment to be recouped through lobola.
The biggest challenges when it comes to lobola is the misunderstanding of what it is and what purpose it serves plus you get pseudo-intellectual studies like this one that over-simplify the custom and only address the superficial. I was proud to offer lobola for my wife as an African and a man who understood why it is important to follow the custom. I have also been part of a delegation that sought to build relations between two families, when you are dealing with mature and reasonable people then negotiations become a pleasure and you walk out of the family house having achieved the traditional objective and with a bit of satisfaction for having helped bring the two families together.
Criticism against the custom are driven either by cultural supremacy, ignorance and a perception by some black people that our customs are primitive without them understanding what purpose they serve and why they are important to observe.
well said d-zel,
D-zel_3.0 - "lobola is meant to bring families closer together" - What is that old saying? Dont do business with family and friends? Because it causes tension in the relationship. And what more is lobola than a business agreement?
See my response below...
Dzel... I find it interesting that you discussing and explaining the actual practice of Lobola. We know what it is. We know how it is done..... Like you say, it is meant to bring families together. Yes it does, and as much as this is good, it is equally bad cause its almost like one is married to the family not to the man himself. Marriage is more about the union of two people just those two people not the families.
That is where you are wrong; you cannot marry and then go off towards the sunset in happiness. Women in particular have problems with abomamezala especially these days because we under-estimate the importance of having good relations between the two family and primary role players. If you are not accepted into the family or you don't get along with the sisters, brothers, in-laws, etc life is going to be extremely difficult.
You claim to understand the custom which must mean you should understand why each step is important. To address your concern; that elaborate explanation was for the benefit of Sin and people like him who do not understand why lobolo cannot be said to be a business transaction especially when one considers the number of different points where gifts are exchanged and why these are significant at each of these points and why. I'd rather I be criticised from an informed position rather than a mistaken assumption of cultural supremacy.
Dzel..Im saying again. Marriage is about two people, ONLY two people. Often, women are abused by their in-laws cause for them the woman is uMakoti who must service the entire family. Hell No.I married my husband NOT the entire family. These in-laws expect us to do things that they wouldn't even expect from their daughters. If the woman lives in the same house as the in-laws, then it will be hell for her. she will be their slave cause she is uMAKoti, and she cant even dare question that cause she will be told this is not how things are done here. Let her try to tell the hubby. He will either remain mum about the whole thing or they will fight.
More often than not, Lobola is a business transaction. That`s why women are treated bad.
Buc4life again you are throwing a lot of ingredients into the mix and confusing things. If you marry into a family that enjoys abusing people and taking advantage of them these things will come up lobolo or not, if basile they will abuse you regardless.
Secondly attitude is everything; if your attitude towards your family is dismissive and disrespectful then how you relate to them will be informed by this. If on the other hand uyazithoba and respect the fact that your mother in law gave birth to and raised your husband therefore he is bound to have strong relations with her you won’t have a problem. If however you want to come in and take him away from his family then you have issues hence in African custom it is important you build relations with all your in-laws; it’s a choice between communal living and individualism that is more common amongst European families.
Ukuba umakoti is not necessary especially if you already have your own home but a wife will not be summoned to the in-laws so she can be abuse, again of this happens then look at the character of the people involved. I already owned my house when we got married so she did not need to go and be umakoti at home, besides she is treated like a child. I have to use my experiences, experiences of family and my friends as a point of reference and I cannot think of anyone who was made a slave after marriage; maybe amaXhosa do this but that is not my experience.
A question for you; wena uhlushwa yini when two people agree that lobolo will be exchanged between two families…. Ungena kuphi and what give you the right to say this is wrong… your opinion?
Dzel...I think you are the one confused, my brother. You measure everything against whites or 'white' ways. Why are you doing this to yourself? Higher education teaches us to think of the bigger picture. I providing examples to support why Lobola is damaging our society. You looking at these in isolation from everything else....Do you understand the context of debate, Dzel. Why do you like to get personal? Honestly, nothing bothers me. Im just commenting here. I have the right to? You know that I have the right to voice my opinions. If you feel that you cannot stomach what im saying, by all means, IGNORE ME. You loathe me yet you like to engage with me, Why?
The basics of debating are when you engage in debate you first have to be aware of both sides of the debate and know arguments that are likely to be used by both sides so that not only can you test your own position but you are ready to respond when these are raised. Secondly you must always vet your arguments against various scenarios and see if they still hold and how would they change if the context were different.
You call drawing parallels between African customs and the other side of the debate and given that this is South Africa the other side of the coin are Western weddings so it is only necessary that this becomes a point of reference against which arguments can be vetted and comparisons made.
In your simplistic thinking you assume this is a weakness when you have not thought that far, we do not think the same so that’s fine but reading the situation and assuming that this is a symptom of an inferior complex is simplistic and lazy thinking my sister. I don’t understand why people think it is necessary to insult each other’s mental capacity when the argument is lost, I do not question your intelligence but I do question your outlook in life however. Life becomes much easier when you have the social and emotional intelligence to understand what contributes to positive relations and how to manage these instead of snapping your fingers and proclaiming ukuthi angeke ube umakoti. Sometimes doing these thinks will soften attitude and give you an opportunity to know your in-laws, I suspect this was the original objective and not to enslave and subjugate. A bit more reflection on the reasons behind our customs is recommended as there is a lot of reason and logic behind our customs; objectives and logic that seem to be lost on you and this is what happens when a child is raised not understanding their customs as seems to be the case with you.
Dzel...When the argument is lost, I find it appalling that you attack others.Funny that you talking about EQ, when yours is so low. And you know what,,,,STOP COPYING MY COMMENTS. ITS CALLED PHLIGIARISM. ....Theres a lot more reasons for these customs for YOU not for others, please. hahaha...lol, Wa ntshegisa wena Abuti wa ka. Ga o nkitse mara u label and insult me.
I don’t have to know you to understand the way to think ausie, like I said you are easy to psycho-analyse down to these replies which are about the need to be seen to be intelligent so feel you must have the last word. My problem is allowing people like you space to whine about being treated unfairly but I would have thought it is obvious it is the quality of debate that matters, not how many times or how loud you repeat the same arguments. People here offer weak arguments and then act surprised when weak arguments don’t sway opinion.
This is really simple; if you don’t like my debating style then don’t engage me. It gets tiring reading the same old crap about me not taking your views into consideration when the views in question are simplistic, naive, weak and an outcome of lazy thought processes. Lobolo does not ill-treat anyone; it is people and interpersonal relations that lead to abuse. I would have thought this is obvious to someone who claims and elevated intellectual capacity as you do.
Then the killer is the faked laughter meant to create the impression you are in control… well if that makes you feel better then good for you but a seasoned debater sees through these acts desperation. If you were as intelligent as you seem to have convinced yourself you wouldn’t need to pull tricks and gimmicks so people can think of you as intelligent but I don’t like this debate about who is more intelligent than whom to be honest with you as the debate is more often than not misguided and largely pointless, intelligence should be seen and appreciated instead of being debated or claimed.
Dzel....Im laughing at you cause im really laughing. Im not faking it as you claim. Im sure u well aware that we way off the topic, and I am bored and I am stooping down to your level and I got you wrapped right around my pinkie. On a different day, I would have closed you off long time ago. So, don't flatter yourself, Abut. Carry on. Im entertained. Its always amazing how such an intelligent soul can be so vulnerable.
Make up your mind, either you think I am intelligent or you don't. Secondly you need to look up the meaning of the word vulnerable before using it this carelessly. No I am not vulrnable but I do tend to hold one's hand until I know they grasp concepts being explained. My reward would be to show you how wrong you are about culture but I realise that some of us do not think as deep and do not reflect as much on our environment and influences.
Listening to you talk about how you can defeat me is like listening to TI threaten to whip Floyd Mayweather’s butt; theoretically possible and a practical impossibility. You sound like you are a bimbo my sister to be honest which explains the delusions of grandeur. In all my time on this forum intellect is not a word I would have associated with you but if you insist you can be whatever you want to be my sister this after all is cyberspace where we are all free to be whatever it is we want to be.
I am now really bored, time to call an end to this ego massaging exercise.
Agreed Sin...they only smile when you around and bring some goodies...without money a man just a piece of trash
not sure if there is something wrong with me..but ndiyayithanda ikvkv...Lord knows I do
hayi akhonto iwrongo wena ufana nam iveki ininzi ngaphandle kwayo
Mshana kasi girls are hot,sexy, beautiful and affordable, the expensive thing you can do for a kasi woman is R500 hairstyle then you take her to Mr price and spend R300,life is simple.You so right.1000 rand for a kasi girl is a fortune.Blueroom Jimi is slowly turning into a Brothel.during the day its married women hunting side dishes,late might is the real ladies of the night selling.
Its difficult to marry someone these days, everything is just expensive and no one wants to get married. People are not loyal they are always looking for the back door or pastures that look greener.
To the ignorant, uninitiated and ill-informed I can see how lobolo can be seen as a business transaction but an African marriage is characterised by an exchange of gifts from beginning to end hence if you look at lobolo alone one is bound to miss the point completely.
Just to give you a rough idea of what happens during an African marriage:
1. Often the first contact with the in-laws is through lobolo negotiations so typically after you have requested permission and been granted the permission to enter into your in-laws yard and house the potential bride will be asked to come in and confirm that she knows about and is in favour of negotiations taking place.
2. The first gift to be exchanged will be “imvulamlomo”, often this is alcohol that is consumed after negotiations have been concluded.
3. Then comes lobolo itself which by the one does not have to be paid at once and often the asking price is not met 100%
4. Once the negotiations have been concluded then the ceremonies start at her family home and often lobolo money is used to pay for this ceremony. More importantly her family will then give gifts to the family of the groom paying special consideration to family members who were instrumental in raising her up; parents, uncles, aunts, etc. Blankets are the most common gift but clothing can be included, etc, etc.
5. Then there will be a ceremony to bid her well as her family will officially accompany her on her journey to join her new family or the family she will be marrying to.
6. She will then be welcomed to her new family and any family customs will be performed when she is welcome by her new family and officially becomes a new member of the groom’s family.
7. As the final step of the official ceremony the grooms family will then give gifts to the bride’s family; these gifts are in the form of blankets, doeks, a coat for her father, etc, etc.
Now count the number of times gifts are exchanged from the beginning to the end, lobolo is but just one example but blankets are not cheap so a lot of money is used but it is not about the value of the goods as it is about the gift itself the only reason lobolo is singled out is ignorance and I suppose it is easy to look at the fact that it is in the form of cash these days and then call that a price to be [paid but it isn’t.
Now look at meaningless white weddings; absolutely no symbolism associated, no attempts to build friendship between the families, no tradition or culture and it is about having fun on that day only when African weddings focus on building future relations. The biggest irony about largely meaningless white weddings is even the white dress worn by brides often mocks the intent, how many people marry virgins these days which is the purity the dress is meant to symbolise.
To be honest I did not see the need to have a white wedding after having a traditional wedding because of how comprehension and meaningful African marriages are but I ended up having a white weeding because I know it meant a lot to her and would make her happy but it was unnecessary is you ask me especially to someone who does not believe in god but we exchanged our vows in a church.
Dzel....Good Morning. LObola, just like any of our cultural practices is abused. Lobola is abused by parents. It WAS good in years gone cause then, a bride`s parents would just get cows. Now, bride`s parents demand an unreasonable price which is not affordable. This does not help their child nor the society as a whole.
Again the problem is with the people you are dealing with. Before I paid lobola I sat down with my future wife to be and we discussed the amount and what we both felt was reasonable, she then spoke to her mother just to check if we are on the same page so by the time we went to pay lobola it was a joyous occasion, we got rid of formalities as quickly as we could and then spent the rest of the time laughing and enjoying each other's company but then again that was informed by the fact that we had been going out for years and I was treated like a son by her family.
Like I said, if you are marrying into a family of leaches you will encounter problems whether these manifests themselves during negotiations or at a later stage.
I have contrasted African marriages against western marriages to highlight just how void of meaning western marriages are yet the very people that complain about traditional weddings would not think twice about blowing a small fortune on booking a venue and blowing a small fortune in the process just to be seen to afford a lavish wedding yet they’d complain about paying lobola. It boils down to one’s mentality I suppose but I blame that assumes that western is better, African is primitive.
If you marry into a screwed up family then they will remain screwed up, lobola is never going to change or polish the character of your future in-laws unfortunately.
Dzel....Lets just remove your circumstances out of the pic. Shall we? things might have worked out for you, but lobola is an issue for an average Sa black man.Lobola is the reason why some black men treat their wives bad. as I said, parents no longer have their children`s interests at heart. For them, it all about more money in the pocket. How many couples start from scratch with no house or start-up necessities , yet the parents charged an exorbitant amount? How many grooms pay with their credit cards, or take up expensive loans for Lobola? How many brides pay their own Lobola cause the man cant afford? Note that im talking about what Lobola is doing to our society. Lobola is intended to be good, it is meant to be good but we live in a different times; much different than it was 50 years ago. The practice has to change or we got to do away with it. Lobola or the practice thereof, is a social injustice not only to men, but to the society as a whole.
Bucks4Life but you can’t ask me to ignore all the positive stories I we can focus on the negative, fact is there are many positive stories out there.
Secondly we need to separate issues and address them separately, you are married to someone who views you as a possession and subsequently ill-treats you as a result then the problem lies with your judgment and the kind of person you are getting married to, not lobolo.
You’d be surprised by the fact that newlyweds often get into debt because of the amount of money they spend on lavish white weddings rather than the cost of lobolo which I’d estimate to be between R 20,000.00 to R 30,000.00, tell anyone who asks for more to take a hike. You also cannot ignore the fact that many families use the money to pay for umshanda kabo makoti so this money is not wasted as you want to suggest.
Wena your problem is with culture nje and you think Africans should forgo their traditions and this is based on observations over a period of time, lobolo just happens to be the topic here. I see you trying hard to panel beat your arguments to fit your outlook in life but come on; we can’t change who we are just because we think our traditions are outdated, stay black and proud my sister
If you don’t want lobolo to be paid for you then that is your right, take it up with your parents and (future husband) but I think you are going a bit too far by being an anti-African-culture advocate and wanting to dictate terms to others however benevolent and progressive you may think your views are
Dzel...just to put things in perspective, I am not married at the moment. I have been married. I comment based on my intellectual capacity, and experience in life. To say that I look down on our cultures when you do not know me, is hilarious to say the least. You are refusing to see the damage Lobola is doing to our society and knowing you, you will hammer and label anyone who disagrees with you. U know me by now, akere,Dzel. I am no push over. I have the right to comment here whether you like my views or not.
Intellectual capacity… sometimes we are too clever for our own good, I also have an intellectual capacity yet I disagree with you. You have somehow concocted this idea that lobolo is damaging when it is a good practice with specific objectives, that you do not appreciate these does not make you right. You are cooking up of stew made up of a cacophony of issues many which are not direct consequences of lobolo and you think these are valid arguments when they are not.
This is not about whether you are a push over or not but rather whether you have valid arguments or not. Of course you have a right to comment but when you comment avoid being prescriptive as you are not an authority on the subject and at best your arguments can be described as ill-informed opinion.
Don’t allow lobolo to be paid for you but never assume you can tell others to do the same as well, your arguments are not strong enough for you to assume that position. Sorry it didn’t work out but I recall you saying you make him make tea for you and your friends whilst you and your friends sit around chatting… poor man I said at the time remember…
Dzel....I have sais this over and over again, you would not like to debate with me cause I will turn you inside out that you wouldn't ever come back to block. you get away with this cause you play me instead of the topic. Im a highly intelligent woman. Otherwise, you wouldn't even be responding to my comments cause u do not respond to 'stupid' comments. Right Dzel?....Lobola is damaging our society, You are upset with this cause for you I play down everything black. If you weak enough to be told by others what to do, don't assume other bloggers are. Im commenting here out of my right to, but not to tell others what to do..... as for your last sentences, why do you always point a finger at me for words I didn't say? you either hate me that much or you hallucinating
Again the problem is you think you need to compete with me when all I care about is getting my point of view across. You can continue being preoccupied by wanting to look more intelligent or we can listen to each other without egos getting in the way. Never ever shine a spotlight on yourself and scream at everyone, “look at how clever I am” because it says more about you than you realise. Your intelligence should shine through on its own without you putting effort into looking intelligent, true intelligence does not need to be justified or be held up as if it were some kind of badge or award.
Fact is you THINK lobolo is harmful and that is informed by your own limited experiences, some of us view the world differently and are comfortable in our black skins and do not see the need to change for the sake of change. I asked you what you think needs to change when it comes to lobolo, why does it need to change and what will be achieved by changing and you ignored these basic questions.
Dzel....I don't know how many times I have told you that I don't have to try to do anything. I don't have to try to be intelligent. I am. You are not at that high a level to begin to debate with me. Debate is about competition. Isnt it? I debate to put my point across without getting personal. You cant. the winner is someone who can successfully put points across without getting arrogant. It is never about Buc4life or Dzel....And yes, all you care about is putting your skewed points across. You do not take others` views....Of course, I think Lobola is harmful but it seems like im hurting you more than you realize. Why? I ignore some questions cause I lose interest as soon as you start to get personal.
Yah neh, ithi ngikuyeke nokuhlanipha kwakho... give that ego time to recover as it looks very bruised at the moment. Of course you will shred me to pieces and every topic that comes up; it must be satisfying being as intelligent as you are Buc4Life, well done and I hope you feel better about yourself now.
The difference between you and me is I don't need to pat myself on the back to feel good about myself so well done to you; I bow down to your superior intellect.
hahahaha....lol, gosh, how I laughed....
....jah neh,,,,I never say people are stupid but you can sound so stupid and hilarious. yerrrr, man.....it is extremely satisfying being intelligent. This is a God-given talent. Others, have their own talents. And I tell myself im intelligent. I do not need to be validated by others. So, irrespective of what you say, I remain humble, and my credibility stays intact.....I challenge you Dzel, let me and you debate(no personal attacks). Then not only will you bow down, you will kneel before me.
You can say anything you want but that you said something does not make it true. Again my ego is not fragile enough to enter into a contest of wits with you, like I said if you want the badge I'll give it to you so well done. I have bowed and now I kneel; I can imagine just how validated that makes you feel Oh Intelligent One!
Anything else you need me to tell you so you can feel better about yourself; how about you look smashing in that outfit which I am sure you will claim is ultra-expensive, how about that hair, is it Brazilian, did it cost you thousands of Rands?
I find myself asking why am I still responding to you
Hhahahaha....lol, yes...Dzel...why are you? I also want to know...Im an African woman with African hair. I don't wear weaves....Yerrr, now you have outdone urself.
So you claim, did you know I can be Chris Rock online if I wanted to?
"3. Then comes lobolo itself which by the one does not have to be paid at once and often the asking price is not met 100%"
This is the main problem: If they no that the men is well off they will ask for a huge amounts. Itumeleng khune knows that.
But often it is the well off man who wants to show just how rich he is and offer ridiculour amounts. If Khune allowed himself to be screwed then that is his problem but he should have managed exceptations.
No, Dzel...It is the parents who expect that; just because it is Itu or any of these famous guys, that they can 'charge' more. that`s why our parents ask us when we dating, what the guy does for a living.
No your parents asked because they want you to be financially secure rather than worrying about how much money they are going to make out of you; if that is what you think of your parents then that raises questions about them Bucks.
I repeat, no self-respecting parent will put a price on their daughter’s head as if they are tradable commodities. My mother married my sister off, she did not sell her off; HUGE DIFFERENCE there my sister.
...Dzel, but that`s what parents do. they put a price on their daughter`s head. Like I said, just because things worked well in your family does not mean they work well for other people.
Parents pocket this money Dzel. Yes, some of it is used for the 'WELCOMING' ceremony but most of it goes into their pockets.
No they don't in many cases and if they do it is because they are allowed to abuse the system. If you feel during negotiations you feel the custom is beiung abused then you have every right to stand up and walk out until they come to their senses. no right thinking person would risk their child's happiness because they did not get the money they wanted. If they really abuse the system then marry without their blessing but that is for extrame cases.
...Dzel....I AM SAYING AGAIN, PARENTS ABUSE THIS. For one minute, come out of that Mars planet you living on, and visit Earth. Parents do that right here on planet earth. Parents mean well, but they do not see this as risking their children`s happiness. they conveniently see this as culture.
Your opinion is not reality, at best qualify your statement by starting with I THINK....
Dzel....Well aware of that my Friend.
Peace... I don't want to fight you but please respect the fact that many of us appreciate and continue to practise these customs. More over these are customs that will be passed on to our kids because it is important that they too need to know who they are, where they come from and what traditions and customs define them and why these are performed or practised.
The last thing I want is for my children to read about our customs from a book and then still miss the essence of these traditions. Similarly I made a conscious decision that Zulu will be a primary language spoken at home and they will learn English at school because I am not about to converse with my child in English
To some people this is important but to me it is at the core of how I relate to and interact with my kids and what lessons do I teach them from a young age.
Good for you, Dzel,,,,but respect the fact that others(like me) don't appreciate customs like that and I will speak out against. I am commenting based on the topic not to attack anyone. You see others` views as attacks on you. This is sad. You should not debating if you are relating topics to your personal circumstances. debate is about being able to stand the heat without burning yourself. Me and you differ in this regard, I am able to dissociate myself from topics and you are not. That`s why you always attack others. Like I said before, you know a lot, u sound like an intelligent man, but if you come across as abrupt and rude to others, you will lose your credibility. I know what i'm talking about. LEARN, Dzel. We never too old too.
Hence I said you have a very loose relationship with your culture and you cried foul when that fact is obvious, psycho-analysing you is not difficult at all so it is easy establishing why you think the way you do. It is obvious we are now in ego-preservation mode as you feel bruised by the debate so now we are talking about my perceived behaviour during debates.
Secondly you don’t seem to understand that who we are in by and large informed by our experiences; who we are, what communities we were raised in, behaviour, social norms, etc but most importantly everyday interactions will form your outlook in life so it is odd you should find my using personal experiences as examples as odd, did you expect me to use your experiences instead?
Buc this is not going anywhere and you are not enhancing your reputation by dragging this out when you have nothing of substance to add. Do you want us to continue massaging your ego or should we move on?
....im asking the same question Dzel. I told you I`m no pushover. Did I not ask u to ignore me?....And you are absolutely spot on in saying I have a loose relationship with culture. I hate to be bound by senseless practices. These days we have freedom to be really who we want to be. we have freedom to question. We have freedom to teach our children what we want without being bound by the 'system'....You do not seem to understand that you can choose to live anyway you want,even though you were raised in a certain way. Its all about choices we make, Dzel.
My psycho-analysis about reasons for foregoing culture tells me otherwise, like I said you strike me as one of those people who converse with their kids in English and I know I am right.
You call it being free to think however you like but here is where you miss the point; culture does not stop you from being an individual but it grounds you and defines your people's past, their beliefs, etc. so you are free to take forward what makes sense to you.
Clearly you believe in God, a god you nothing about yet you look down on cultural beliefs and customs. You are not difficult to read my sister and people like you sadden me but it is up to you want you are and what you want to become. I often draw parallels between culture and western beliefs to point out just how pathetic western beliefs are and that ours are better in that they make sense but to you everything western is good. Self-loathing da.rk.ies who think they are advanced make me sad like I said but ya keep on believing in your perceived correctness my sister if that makes sense to you. It is when one is not grounded and comfortable with whom they are that they flow with the wind, one hopes one day you will find yourself.
To be honest you come across as a bit of a bimbo Buc and you are not reflective enough in your thinking and thoughts but jah, you seem happy being a bimbo. Let me guess, fake hair has been dyed blond and you see nothing wrong with that?!?!?!?!
Personally I do not think ilobola is the main deter for most man but cause could be attributed to priorities more than anything. People in general they want to have their own things (house, car, expensive furniture, lavish lifestyle basically + a family to support back home) once they start working and as we know these assets come at a price which leaves a hole in most men’s pockets. Family values could be another issue, people in general are putting less emphasis on the whole notion about family.
One thing I have learned in life is that man don’t want woman that work for the self’s “independent woman” black bone, izimdudla.. lol!! all their look for are yellow bone with brazil hair…. So yes for you to get that you have to pay…#expensivelobola...
Marriage communion is misrepresented and worse now that it is infiltrated by money.
@Mshove, i am going to Sakhi(Sakhumzi), will you join me later?
maybe marriages are on the decline because people are becoming more and more superficial and fake everyday. maybe people are focused on their careers. maybe coz women grew up watching living single. maybe coz lobola is so expensive. maybe coz women are trying to be more like men, unwittingly sabotaging themselves by going against their graceful nature, and I dont mean that in the context of sexual preference. or maybe coz there's a few real men left, and I dont mean that in the context of sexual preference. or maybe coz true love between 2 people doesnt need to be validated by a piece of paper. maybe
marriages are on the decline coz of facebook, twitter and sowetan articles.
marriages are on the decline coz of phuza thursday, and jabula lova monday...and generations
maybe marriages are on the decline because of racism
maybe marriages are on the decline because of BEE and African Bank
The guy, he wants to pomp the lady without the consequences and the lady wants to be pomped with consequences. This is where the whole thing fails.
lefase ga le na basadi plz GOD send us desent women so that we can get married, basadi ba lehono ba tshilafetse sis dats y we have so many gays cos ba bona gore gwa swana mos
G_d can send you decent man to marry as well, hey?
Eish mara marriage in indeed a chatastrophic department these days. I mean how do we hope to try when things in that institution are so deur-mekaar. 1 minute we r all happy ululating to banyadi six months down the line is serparation which clearly leads to divorce in most cases. Hai nna o kare ke feditse le maikutlo, I'll just buy a sausage there are many supermarkets I really don't need the whole PIG to have a slice of bacon. A me a kalo.
Yha wena s febe.
N iggas and biatches cold heinekens are waiting for me lemme go and have em. I will also grab Remy Martin VSOP for the night, bye biatches.
Every day Monday to Friday 15 Market street JHB so full of couples divorcing scary..