MommaC

Is there a 'right to self defence' anywhere in those 'rights'?

We have miners openly threatening murder, Malema openly instigating bloodshed and union bosses using workers as cannon fodder. Maybe focusing on the police is a bit short sighted. They are just the poor sods who get there AFTER the stage is set
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Mosquer

Wena wa bhora! vroeg so!! When did they mention the name of Malema here?
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candilious

@MommaC-Morning


Indeed everybody has the right to live ,but nowehere in this whole Marikana event has these mine workers shown any remourse whatsoever.Yes their have the right tot a Better life but not to forget how their wanted that better life at the expense of others.............
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Stumaeza

One of Malema's haters - TSEK
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Nys1

As South African’s , we have rights , Right to protest , right to life and all other rights ...but that does not mean that we should ignore others rights over our own. Violence during protest has become a norm in our country , these lawlessness and unruly behaviours is what led to the massacre at Marikana.
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candilious

!@Stumaeza/Mosquer -So early ............really now use your noodle before commenting AND yes he is behind this whole saga
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Nys1

Charging at Police was outright stupid , especially after two of their own were butchered...!!!
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Mosquer

candilious
!@Stumaeza/Mosquer -So early ............really now use your noodle before commenting AND yes he is behind this whole saga
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The blame should be on the management not Malema. If they should came to agreement, non of this could've happened.
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CheeseBoy

What started off as a genuine concern about money/pay quickly escalated into senseless violence.

The striking workers by taking the lives of people reduced themselves to senseless savages.

The police did not do any wrong by using the apprpriate force to counter what anybody saw as a blatant attack and lack of respect for law enforcement and human lives. there were gun shots coming from that croud its there for all to see.
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Nys1

Political stage open ,lets seat back and enjoy the show...!!!
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What-the-heck

With rights come responsibilities and it seems as if neither the striking workers nor the police took cognisance of this fact. Then comes the mindless Malema and put petrol to the fire! Eish! This is going to get even uglier.
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Chichi7

Where is the right to protect yourself? These miners savagely killed 10 innocent lives and came armed to the teeth when the police were brought in. Exactly what did people expect the police to do, floss teeth whilst these senseless savages came with spears, pangas and God knows what else?
If you come into my home armed with a gun, I have the right to shoot without asking.
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MicaParis

One need only look at the disdain that many captains of industry have for the very people in political authority positions whom they corrupt. It is very sad to realize that Unions and top Government leaders are selling the soul and flash of our workers in exchange of fat BEE deals.
I remain convinced that ours is a country destined for greatness if only we are willing to commit to living our dreams of unity in diversity and respect for dignity every day at the personal, professional and political level.

This requires a commitment to conversations that may at times be uncomfortable, but in the web of the extended family setting there should be enough safety to allow for all to be heard. And if there isn’t, we need to start re-weaving these spaces to become safe.

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Solm

There is no where in the Constitutions where it says rights are absolute, every right has limitations.You can talk all day about rights, if you not balancing these rights with responsibilities.You not really solving anything.The limitations on rights in our Constitution are there to represent responsibilities.If I claim a right to life, then I have a responsibility not to take another person's life.
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What-the-heck

@MicaParis - very well said! So true...

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Doculam

Lets pretend the Police did not start shooting. The headlines would have been the same, only difference would have been that the dead ones would have been Police members and several firearms would have been taken from the Police and been in illegal hands today.
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MommaC

candilious

Morning doll.
They not only show no remorse, they are threatening more of the same!
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Ngiyaphapha

"You cannot enforce the right to life by taking another life."

Agreed.
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star88

The South African Poilce Act is clear. Police MUST protect and serve.
SAPS members are ill-disciplined, trigger happy, and blood lusting
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cornelius

Sorry Sowetan , you are missing the main point - the police shot in self defence - which is a situation that justifies killing. The miners were almost on top of them, charging with very dangerous weapons, with which they were not intending to tickle the police.


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Moffdat

Is it me or are all the mine workers they interviewed either Zulu or Xhosa?
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Sokheshe1905

The right Life..the right to self defence..the right to strike..the right to go to work..The right muthi man...the right to call for calm and the mourning week. Let’s respect the fallen and stop blaming each other. We can learn a lot from Marikana.
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Lehido

@Doculam
Lets pretend the Police did not start shooting. The headlines would have been the same, only difference would have been that the dead ones would have been Police members and several firearms would have been taken from the Police and been in illegal hands today.
-----------------------------------------------

Thank you......

i still say, what happened is sad but the police defended themselves......If you carry a gun and start killing people from my street, or my family, and you start to set your eyes in my direction, i will shoot you before you could blink.....

I work for one of the highest law enforcement agencies in this country and well trained for that matter, I dont miss, and had i been in that situation last week, I would have taken them down as well....
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Danielrjvvuren

Interesting cartoon today, how did the police force violence on the protesters? I finally saw the video and they are clearly running on police and you can see bullets hit the ground in front of the police. If I was there I would open fire too. This was not a sharpville at all, this was self defense. The police were forced to act out of self defense not act out of orders to k1ll.
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MommaC

"Safety of the public is not negotiable. Don't be sorry about what happened," Phiyega was quoted as saying by the Sowetan newspaper.

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME !!!!!!

Sowetan, did the silly woman REALLY say that ????

34 men lay dead and nearly 200 injured and they shouldn't be sorry? What kind of callous is that?
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shrink7

tragic what happened, but i think this was a lesson to any idiotic kind of protest for any low IQ hooligans in future, SAPS fill free to protect yourselves, do it again an gain if necessary, "ga bakwe ka letlalo, ga bana ditsebe le boko mos".....and this week is normal for me, not mourning anything
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Edinburg

"The police officers who were killed were also entitled to their right to life."?????? Really Really who are these officers who were killed? release their name and would know. Please lets not try and make this situation equilibrium yet we know what really happened. however RIP the miners and "police" officers.
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ntiki

why did the SAPS use guns?
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Tabza325is

Watching the news clip again on ETV one of the policeman kept on saying flush them out when the men came out of the bushes they were being flushed out with tear gas they were not charging but were flushed out by the police out of the bushes, but then again maybe I saw another wrong news clip...
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Flemza

its sad what happened on thursday , may the soul of mine workers rest in peace , and may Zuma make Malema Minister of police or appointhim police commisioner we all want to see what difference will Malema bring
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Socrates

I invide anyone to watch aljazeera video and make up your mind
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MicaParis

MommaC
"Safety of the public is not negotiable. Don't be sorry about what happened," Phiyega was quoted as saying by the Sowetan newspaper.

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME !!!!!!

Sowetan, did the silly woman REALLY say that ????

34 men lay dead and nearly 200 injured and they shouldn't be sorry? What kind of callous is that?
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She is already ''shitting on us'' MammoC, ironically those who know pedi or tswana will know what the word ''phiyega'' means in vernacular, it means a ''running stomach'' so in those conditions never mind the results, I guess the police top dog is living by her surname, absolutely nothing but feces, she is very weak to manage that position, cannot even make a meaning and honorable speech as a leader, shame ANC we are in trouble, the other Nathi Mthetwa's deadwood!! Zuma had been advised wrong by his cronies (frienemies) once again!!
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MommaC

Tabza325is

There are 3 clips that I've seen. ETV's, SABC's and Reuters'. They are all from different angles and only the Reuters one shows the miners actually start the rush. The others show more dust and smoke than what happened in the beginning.
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Papage

It is strage that those who died are mostly from Eastern Cape and yet locals have no jobs, is it because they dont have the skill or Batswana can't mine?
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cornelius

@ntiki and Tabza325is

The miners were charging the police and were about 20 metres away ( my estimate from seeing the footage). The SAPS has previoulsy used teargas and rubber bullets, but thi shad not stopped the charge. The miners had some very very scary looking weapons. If the police had not used live ammunition, many of them would have been killed. Already 2 policement had beeen killed. The miners had resolved to make war - some taking muti which made them believe the SAPS bulelts could not harm them.

I t cannot be allowed that illegal protesters can make war on the police like this, and then when they get killed, we blame the police. We will quickly have total lawlessness.

I think some blame should also be pored on the Lonmin management - they should have climbed down from their ivory towers and engaged the protesters. Still this does not justify attacking the police in this manner.
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JungleFever

The constitution gives us those right but we should also remeber that these right have limits even if we say we have rights. You rights are taken away as soon as you infringe on other citizens right away. We have a right to demnstrate and gather peacefully and respect other people's rights not to demonstrate. As soon as we threaten other people's right with violance and intimidation then our right get taken away. Do unto others as you would expect them to do unto you. Other thing intelezi and blankets does not stop bullets. Study the Marikana Scenario correctly and you will findout that some of the protesters were forced to protest or be killed and the medicine man gave these guys umuti telling them they will invincible, I know how this works I was there during the Inkatha Violence in 1989 - 1991 in Katlehong and Thokoza we aslo thought intelezi works but were wrong.
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Roffuz

Would it have been better if it were the police who died that day; would people be making so much noise?

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seutullamakunutu

@mica paris Phiyega is not the meaning of diarrhea in pedi. Diarrhea is letshollo s with apostrophy. I do not know the meaning of Riah's surname but is definitely not diarrhea.

How were the police supposed to defend themselves ,What about the two policemen that were killed by miners before the police opened fire ?

I only was the snippet on sky news, the people commenting all speak zulu, why are there no tswana's commenring, not a racial issue just wondering where is marikana ?

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2shy2call

I wish you could be confronted with a Panga or Spear or a gun for that fact with intention to Kgabitlella while having a gun in your hand lets see what you are going to do. Ftsek
You think we will say the article is interesting Ftsek go and learn from Catoonists.
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Moffdat

THE POLICE DID NOTHING WRONG. THE DEATH OF A POLICE OFFICER IS A TRAGEDY AND ON THIS DAY IT HAPPENED TWICE. WE SHOULD BE MOURNING THE POLICE OFFICERS AND NOT THESE LAWLESS PEOPLE!
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Tabza325is

@Momma&Ccornelius, I am not pointing blames who is wrong who is right, all I saying is my abservation of the news clips, on one clip one police man kept on saying flush them out, before then the men were devided into groups by the police to contain them and some of the men were behind the bushes which was then that the police attemted to flush them out, when the men came out of the bush it's left to everyonce interpretation you say they were charging, I say they were being flushed out of the bush by the police, I'm just stating my view.
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MommaC

Tabz@325is

Not saying you are wrong. Just pointing out that there is more than one rec0rding of what happened and you get a different 'fee1' of what happened from each of them.
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MommaC

MicaParis

I just can't believe she said that.
The cops who were there are probably torn up inside. Instead of urging them to go for counselling to cope with a very real, human reaction, the silly woman is basically telling them to be proud of what happened.

This is what happens when you plonk someone who has absolutely no idea of what a job entails, into a top position.
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Tabza325is

@MommaC, I saw all three clips on ETV which is why I'm pointing out the order from one of the policeman to flush the men out, even before those clips they do state that the police at that point were attempting to dispares the men which ended in spit groups were one group was behind the bushes, the men were not sneaking they were cornered or baricaded into the bushes and based on what I saw from those clips the police were attempint to flush them out as part of their action plan which is why I point one of the police shouting flush them out.
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MommaC

Tabza325is

The question is 'why' did they want them flushed out? Was it to shoot them or was it to avoid being ambushed? They looked pretty damn scary when they were running waving their weapons around. I would have probably pooped myself and started shooting too.

I really wish we could say that we will wait for the professionals to give us the truth. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that any of us trust our 'professionals' to be completely honest with us.
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joyful

Yalo this is unfair to police!

police are not Lonmin - they are also humans! they are also earning a living! what were they supposed to do when being attacked??

and Media is unfair reporting once again: why no mention of the workers killed by this striking killing force??? what of the security guards they killed???

do they also not have a right to life????

I never get it: why strikers would murder other workers, police, passerby - even steal from shops and hawkers on the streets: who are not responsible for their salaries!
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joyful

@Tabza325is
@MommaC, I saw all three clips on ETV which is why I'm pointing out the order from one of the policeman to flush the men out

*********
forget about ETV or even some of our newspapers. the true story of what really happened, who shot who first, what steps were taken before massacre...

all of this was shown live on Al Jazeera network. I can tell you this: Strikers attacked first! don't take my word for it, watch the channel, they were there from start to finish.
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tau365

if u attack me with a gun,im going to react with a gun,so stop saying the police are wrong,those idiots asked for it,how can u demand wage increase with a panga and not with a peacefull demonstration and as for juju he is an opportunist and stupid who ever listened to him is also stupid cause juju does not belong anywhere and his words hold no merit.
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Marquez

Nys1
Political stage open ,lets seat back and enjoy the show...!!!
__________________________________________________________________
What is there to enjoy? People getting killed? Breadwinners getting wounded?
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Mbelewolwazi

The person who must be held liable here is the the sangoma who told those miners that his muthi will make them invincible to bullets. That is why those peolpe came charging like that because they sincerely believed the bullets would not penetrate their bodies. This was the twist to the whole thing.
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RobinH

testing
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Kaylae

I saw 3 recordings and the miners started attack!ng and some were found d3ad with !llegal gu.ns,I am saddened that all this unnecessary act happened and most if not all are bread winners who lost their lives may their souls rest in peace.When did it become that protest will become this v!olent,protesters must value their lives more and respect men in uniform they are not en3mies they are there to ensure that no one gets harm3d but should you pose as a threat to them they will wipe out
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RobinH

One accepts people's right to "d e f e n d themselves". but was it necessary to use l i v e ammu n i t i o n against s t i c k s and p a n g as? One also accepts that there was certainly a degree of f e a r of the vast numbers of "a t ta ck e r s", but again, one asks why no water-c a n n o n were deployed and why greater numbers of PROPERLY TRAINED r i o t control police were not deployed. .


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RobinH

The disorganisation of the police f o r c e s was clearly apparent in the footage we got to see on TV. None of the discipline one sees in such f o r c e s elsewhere, where a virtually impregnable wall of s h i e l ds is established, and forces then move in precise and organised fashion. This was just a m o b of people in blue uniforms.


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RobinH

I would prefer not to go into the various claimed causes of the ram page, as in the final analysis, causes are irrelevant when effects are so horrendous. Human beings should not behave toward other human beings in such fashion, on either side of the very confused dispute. It's as simple as that. One should not bear a r m s in a supposedly peaceful protest, and to claim that strikers "did not want to a t t a c k police" (as I see in one W Cape daily) is patently absurd. When a few thousand people move on a small f o r c e with such speed and so heavily a r m e d, there is just no logical way in which one can claim that there was no intention to a t t a c k. We South Africans have lost respect for the most basic of human rights - the right to exist!
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Danielrjvvuren

Could anyone comment there for a few min? That was very weird...
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CDP

Let’s be honest though, 34 people should not be shot on sight in front of the worlds media. A lot of mistakes was made during the last week by all involved. But I feel really sorry for the SAPS, just look at the picture accompanying this article. Would the Sowetan editorial be so kind as to explain how they would have effectively dealt with this situation, before just blankly pointing fingers. How do you deal with a war craving crowd wielding deadly weapons??? I am sorry, you cheapen your own live when you storm the police armed, even if it’s only ‘traditional’ weapons. I mean the rumours about the security guards jaws being cut off and then being burned alive after being tortured should not be forgotten. These ‘now being portrayed as poor, exploited natives’ are blood thirsty, witchcraft crazed men. When those guys came so close to the police in an attack formation, it was no longer protesters vs police, it was man vs man, and I am sorry, no one, but no one, would have reacted differently, I certainly would have emptied my gun and anyone who says differently is a rank liar! To even compare this to Sharpeville (where people was shot from behind) is to cheapen the legacy and sacrifice of those who died in 1961. As a white Afrikaner, we have plenty of heroes and tales from the past, especially during the great trek and Anglo Boer war. For a black culture who was severely marginalised historically, do you really want compare these thugs, who had to die unfortunately to those heroes of yours (and all of us really) who died to create freedom. It would seem rather silly to me, and it would make me a little sad to see such short sightedness!!
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RobinH

Daniell, Ja, I was just getting very annoyed - thought the stupid censor was up to its tricks again.
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RobinH

CDP: WELL SAID.
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Lehido

@Danielrjvvuren
Interesting cartoon today, how did the police force violence on the protesters? I finally saw the video and they are clearly running on police and you can see bullets hit the ground in front of the police. If I was there I would open fire too. This was not a sharpville at all, this was self defense. The police were forced to act out of self defense not act out of orders to k1ll.
--------------------------

I agree
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joyful

@RobinH
One also accepts that there was certainly a degree of f e a r of the vast numbers of "a t ta ck e r s", but again, one asks why no water-c a n n o n were deployed and why greater numbers of PROPERLY TRAINED r i o t control police were not deployed

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I think location have to do with all this. this place is far from the abundance of trained Riot police, even the water cannon might not be there ........... not to say getting water up to the hill might also be challenging(as mine had closed and barracaded itself)......

by the time reinforcement of law enforcement arrived, 2 police officers were already dead - sending a message to the police that they are lethal

overall a recipe for disaster, IMHO...

guess the best way for stopping this bloodshed might have been to bring the Sangoma to convince them they will die...... that might have worked
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MommaC

RobinH

According to other sources (Sky, Al Jezeera etc) they did use water cannons and teargas. They claim that the cops were busy laying down the razor wire when a group of the 'protesters' came around the hill and outflanked them.

All told, it should never have got to that stage to start with. The Implats nonsense was in February and all signs have been pointing to an escalation from there. Unfortunately, as per usual, a bunch of people had to pay with their lives before anyone DID something.
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RobinH

MommaC: " it should never have got to that stage to start with" EXACTLY. And I must add that I find it absolutely incomprehensible that in 2012, 1) a "sangoma" should incite this with a claim of muthi to make them safe, and 2) that people actually believe that crap!
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MommaC

RobinH

What can we say? Darwin was wrong.
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RobinH

MommaC: I just hang my head in shame for my country.
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
RobinH
According to some on the sit in our palace balcony and clap at the demise of the African... Dear me is it tea time already? James will bring me my scones on a minute....
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MommaC

RobinH

May as well include the rest of the world in that. The entire human race seems to have gone bonkers.
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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

Of course we do Daniel. Whilst overseeing the polishing of the solid gold walls and wearing ermine cloaks.
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SVR

National day of mourning!?
I feel for their families but I don't mourn crazed murderers thank you very much.
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ChilliesJnr

Some DEMON got into our African police, especialy those in command becacose i believe thats where they get their orders. The "Royal Swaziland Police" on the same day shot atleast more than 5 University students who were in a group protestin for Allawences...
We need divine intervantion on this one.
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Winilen

Yes the right of life is very important but it should work both ways... you cant have a person threatning your life & you stand and think about his/her right of life...police defended themselves & the question which should be asked is there was no other means of defence from the police?

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Moffdat

RobinH
MommaC
Danielrjvvuren

I once knew a guy in law school who had been writing, and failing, his board exams for nine years. He told me while we were studying one day that he knew all the questions but the answers eluded him... i laughed for days.

Once are done with your three way i suggest we start commenting about some solution???
Just a thought (correct us wink wink) use it don't use it...
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MommaC

Moffdat

The solutions are easy. You just wouldn't like most of them
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Epitome

Would South African be having the same responses if it were white policemen that opened fire on blackminers demanding a fair raise, considering the conditions they work under? Also, remembering that the strikers were enclosing with a ring fence (barbed-wire), and were left with one way out (where the police were). Also, that the video-clips are not all there is for us to know about the situation.
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Moffdat

MommaC

I would appreciate it if you mentioned one.
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MommaC

Moffdat

No you wouldn't. All you want to do is argue
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Moffdat

MommaC

*blinking* I promise i won't!
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m'zaco'

vivaaaaaaa Juliussssssssss

***Epitome
Would South African be having the same responses if it were white policemen that opened fire on blackminers demanding a fair raise, considering the conditions they work under? Also, remembering that the strikers were enclosing with a ring fence (barbed-wire), and were left with one way out (where the police were). Also, that the video-clips are not all there is for us to know about the situation.
***
i appreciate your perspective!* **the blood of a black man** tears in my eyes
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Danielrjvvuren

Moffdat
The solution isn't just a one sided thing. Much needs to be done. For one, I think, Unions should have less power and shop stewards should be trained to handle crisis situations. Workers should accept what ever is discussed in workshops and accept it that way police should invest in more invasive non lethal equipment such as LRAD and be better trained in crowd control. There are loads that can be done, but what must happen is this culture of destruction if I do not get my way must stop. We are adults not kids throwing tantrums. But again that is just my opinion
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Danielrjvvuren

And James should hurry up with my scones I'm famished! He does know I'm in the east wing....
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MsKinkyakaKamaSutra

But the ki.llings happened because the right to life was demoted to a secondary right.
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They wanted to demote the lives of the police unfortuantely the tide changed and their own lives were demoted.

How do "negotiate with management" armed with an assortment of weapons??????????????//

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MommaC

Moffdat

mmmm not convinced, but .....


1. educate the population
2. incorporate shop floor workers into the negotiating process
3. get the Police Intelligence Agency to stop playing politics and snooping on each other long enough to do their job
4. make the unions responsible for any and all deaths / destruction / intimidation
5. make any public inciting of violence a criminal offence and actually do something about it.
6. learn from the past so that this doesn't KEEP happening twice a year, every year
7. don't send the cops into situations where they are under-resourced, out numbered and completely blind sided
8. stop rewarding violence and destruction
9. if a strike begins to even seem like it may possibly be getting violent - all politicians and labour leaches should be barred from entry.
10. stop unions from using labour like pawns in their power plays. A strike should be the last possible alternative - not the first option
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MsKinkyakaKamaSutra

Rights come with responsibilities..............
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Danielrjvvuren

MsKinkyakaKamaSutra
Amen.
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Moffdat

MommaC

Thank you for your response *not arguing*! Your views are noted!
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Budapat

Patricia de Llile and Helen Zille, do you still want the ARMY to be deployed to the Western Cape? Nathi Mthethwa and Ria Phiyega, you both announced that no more RUBBER BULLETS for cops in situations of crowd control but failed to implement a replacement mechanism for rubber bullets, now water canons and stun grenades never worked and the poor cops were armed with R5 rifles and Z88 9mm pistol, clearly they were thrown into the deep end of labour matters. NUM and AMCU failed the miners, so if non is taking responsibility who was negotiating miners' better wages with management? Mthethwa and Phiyega should resign, Zuma should relook the issue of entrusting the police service ''force'' with a civilian who knows nothing about criminal law and internal country's unrests, PERIOD!!
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Moffdat

MommaC

8. stop rewarding violence and destruction
10. stop unions from using labour like pawns in their power plays. A strike should be the last possible alternative - not the first option
3. get the Police Intelligence Agency to stop playing politics and snooping on each other long enough to do their job

The above are opinions not solutions!!!
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RobinH

Moffdat: AT least her opinions are her own, and not those dictated by power-fiends.
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Danielrjvvuren

RobinH
Don't even bother. He does that, he wants you opinion then you give it an he attacks you. As only a theorist such as Moffdat can. He is a square in a round hole kind of person just ignore him.
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Moffdat

RobinH
Moffdat: AT least her opinions are her own, and not those dictated by power-fiends.

Please elaborate and don't bother with Daniel he's still sore about his whipping from friday.
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Epitome

Us, as young professionals, tend not to relate with the pain of the so many unskilled labourers in our country because we are safe. The Laws of the country protect us, and not them. There's no foreigner that can work in and take my job, nor can I just be fired at willy-nilly, neither can someone be paid more than me when I am doing the same job as them or more.The poor comrades face the threat of being expendable each day, thus forced to keep quiet at the expense of poor living conditions. We are also employed as the YP's to look over (manage and supervise) them, without necessarily doing anything about the people-issues they have.

I wonder what we will do when that day comes that we will be as expendable as them, because of the foreigner's kids with SA citizenship, having the same rights as us and them willing to be paid less than us to get the job. When we start loosing our 'luxuries' and be forced to take our kids to less than desired schools, and not afford them the necessities of life. Some of us would actually loose ourselves, if their salaries were to be halfed. Some would even turn to other less than desirable means to make ends meet.

During the apartheid era, every white person that kept quiet about the situation was a part and parcel of the system, indirectly so. The same is true for us today that, as black-folk, we are all a part and parcel of a government that does not take its people seriously! We hide behind philosphical and sophisticated ways of explaning things and spend monies 'exploring' than actioning.

If you ask me, if I were to be in their situation, of not being heard, the gun would seem only a minor challenge. I doubt that fear would have the best of me, and unfortunately the police are always called in to manage a mess caused by others (capitalist niggaz aswell).

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RobinH

Moffdat. I respectfully decline. I have watched the interaction and my comment is actually self-explnatory. I do not wish to be drawn into discussion with you.
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Tasto

@Epitome - Wow !!

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MGEEZ

It is a constitutional right that sets South Africa apart from other murderous states. It also sets the rule-of-law-abiding state apart from the apartheid one.
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None of these rights include being armed when you attend a peaceful march! The rule of law means that when civilians are ordered by the police to behave in a specific manner (such as drop the weapon); they act within that instruction. Your problem Sowetan is that you want to be law to yourself and create a storm in a tea cup. Marikana is evidence of what happens when citizens do not obey the very constitution you are referring.
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Moffdat

RobinH

Moffdat. I respectfully decline. I have watched the interaction and my comment is actually self-explnatory. I do not wish to be drawn into discussion with you.
______________________________________________________________________________
Your statements are about as explanatory as Bill Clinton when he cheated!!!
I suppose every teenager has the right to be vague and misunderstood!
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Pointman

The rougue sangoma could very well be the main culprit here. There was a tense situation with police and strikers in a standoff. In steps this sangoma with a potion which he claimed would make people invisible and the strikers bought his nonsense at their peril. From the clips I saw, the crowd were charging the police - what other option was there than to shoot them. The loss of life is regretted. Poor leadership is always has disastrous consequences.
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MommaC

Moffdat
MommaC

8. stop rewarding violence and destruction
10. stop unions from using labour like pawns in their power plays. A strike should be the last possible alternative - not the first option
3. get the Police Intelligence Agency to stop playing politics and snooping on each other long enough to do their job

The above are opinions not solutions!!!

++++++

Told you so.

Anyhow, let me elaborate.

8. Stop rewarding violence and destruction.
Every time a community has a problem, they are ignored. The minute they start killing people or burning down schools, the government goes running and something gets done. That is rewarding violence and destruction. If the ones who put their complaints over in a reasonable way were prioritised and violent / destructive behaviour was penalised, then there wouldn't be so much encouragement to be violent and destructive. Same principle as a spoiled child throwing tantrums.

10. stop unions from using labour like pawns in their power plays. A strike should be the last possible alternative - not the first option
At least three quarters of the strikes is Vavi making political points or (as in this instance) some other power play. The workforce should be made to get a court order allowing them to strike instead of striking and then having the employer get an order for them NOT to strike. Maybe then it would reduce their habit of holding the country to ransom every 5 minutes

3. get the Police Intelligence Agency to stop playing politics and snooping on each other long enough to do their job
Implats was in February. The mining industry was fully aware that this may become a problem. Why did the police not know? The Police Intelligence is a train-smash at the moment with internal politics making any form of public service almost impossible. The cops who were at that hill should have had sufficient data to know how to deal with this and the police should have used that data to diffuse the situation BEFORE bullets started flying

...... back to you - bark away.
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MommaC

RobinH

Unless you are willing to grow hair on your teeth, don't bother. Why do you think I was so reluctant to communicate with him to start with? All the child wants is to argue and insult
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
RobinH

He thinks that only his views are tolerated and anyone who disagrees is just collateral damage and when you try be the bigger person he labels it as a "whipping". Armchair activist are just the best!
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Moffdat

Danielrjvvuren
MommaC
RobinH

Daniel don't you dare say i'm being racist!!!!!!!!! But i need to know - are you guys all white?
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MommaC

Moffdat

NO, I'm green, Daniel is orange and Robin is a powder blue. It may seem a bit odd but, on our planet, colour coding isn't really terribly big - hence my blue father and yellow mother producing all us green sibblings
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RobinH

Moffdiss: With respect, I care little what a dogmatic racist such as yourself thinks. Teenager. Thanks for the laugh. Meanwhile may I suggest a few lessons in very basic reason? I find that a spot of logic really helps in the real world.

MommaC: I've had hair on my teeth since my early teens, lol.

Daniel: Agreed. My response to people like that is best read in the rampant middle finger.
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Danielrjvvuren

I'm a p!nk hippopotamus... Who gives a crap any answer given he will go all @pe on..
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
Me orange? Funny because I'm actually a ginger... hahahah
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RobinH

Muppet: I'm green with a serious red line through the heart? You? Khaki? Hope so, then the cr ap won't show so well.
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RobinH

Moffdis and dat: The only time I consider colour is when I contemplate my more colourful turns of phrase.
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16-12-1838

Education, birth control and fully automated manufacturing & mining systems...these are the only solutions when you have an unproductive, uneducated, unskilled, militant labour force such as ours...oh yes..and a govt hell-bent on ensuring that things continue to deteriate, via the systematic destruction of the education system - all so that the WaBenzi can maintain their extraordinary high standards of living.

Modern natural selection, driven by technology, is swift and unforgiving on those who are unable to adjust. Natural resources are becoming increasingly scarce and the basics to maintaining life ever hard to come by. In short - life on this planet will only get harder!

Unfortunately, here in S.Africa, we are regressing at such a rapid rate that perhaps it isn't too early to predict a return of the 'stone-age' hunter-gatherer or artisinal miner in the very near future...but with very little else but a vague and distant memory in our DNA to guide us, this pre-historic lifestyle will be unachievable.

So why do we blindly allow these anc hyena's to lead us back into the dark ages...perhaps an irrational fear of progress, of white people, of commitment and hard work or could it be that us African's are eternal masochists and prefer suffering over all else?...Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika.


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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

:) I'm upgraded to 'auburn' (well that is what the packet says) - used to be a carrot top though
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
I'm all natural ginger and Moffkop calls me cowlick, I find it suiting as I have a pestering part of my hair that refuses to go down so not entirely an insult.
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Moffdat

I don't know where you get that i'm racist from. All i wanted to know was what race you are because i find it a bit weird that you all believe in the same things, share the same opinion and all think i'm an idiot!
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RobinH

Moffdat: Ag shame man, feeling a bit miffed now that people don't agree with you? It must be so awful to experience such a terrible thing. Ask the party for support.
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Danielrjvvuren

RobinH
Just watch out Moffkop is going to insult your intelligence now, call you a name and try to fix your grammar!
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RobinH

Daniel. Great. I hope so. I need another laugh.
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sgubhusenkwishi

The point is policemen are supposed to be trained to serve the public. The priority in their job is to protect the public, not otherway round.
So people who justify police actions of killing upto 34 civilians and injuring hundreds to me are out of their minds. For only two policemen that were killed. First it means the policemen lost proffessionalism and went out on a killing spree to revenge for two police victims. The question is than, if police are to behave like that, we as the public do we still have a trust to them in protecting us? Or we view them as our enemies and killers?
If so does that solve the problem , or it encourage the public to get armed with guns to counteract the police? Wake up people and look what is happening around the world. There is arab spring, people can act against the state if the state seems to engage on unjustifiable acts at the expence of the public.
How many times did these suppose to be trained police , carrying automatic fire arms even try to shoot the approaching mobs on their legs? the answer is none? We saw pictures people running away and policemen mawing them like , animals or soldiers killing their enemies at war. Was this a war or police were there to maintain order. We saw police jumping the bodies of the fallen mob victims pursuing more who were running for their safety, still killing them, would you describe that as defence?
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Moffdat

RobinH
Daniel

One of you very gay individuals reported me to the authorities. Always running to Mummy when the kitchen gets too hot. You should be ashamed of this and all the gay s3x your having
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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

Ag, be nice. He fancies you :)

Did you call him 'racist'? I can't seem to find the reference to that so I'm a bit confused as to why he is being all snarkie.
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Danielrjvvuren

Moffdat
thanks for stating the obvious dude. My bf and I have gay sex every night how does that change anything?
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
No I don't know either. He says I called him a racist. Maybe he is on some LSD and seeing things?
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Moffdat

MommaC

There you go defending him again. He can defend himself lady
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Danielrjvvuren

Moffdat
its called having friends, If you're nice you might actually make some of those...
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Moffdat

So you guys never answered my question please.
*heartbroken* i really wanna know are you all white?

Cross my heart and hope to die that i will not say anything racist. I just need to figure out something
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Danielrjvvuren

Moffdat
We told you what we are.
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MommaC

Moffdat

Who am I defending?
All I did was ask a question.

Robin and I are of a similar age group and have a similar background. Daniel is younger but his knowledge of economics makes up for his lack of experience. Apart from that (and our lack of political affiliations), we all live in different cities and don't have a hell of a lot in common.
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Epitome

I wonder how many of us have ever been shopstewards, or are members and attend meetings regularly. The top tier (>R200k pa) of the Burgaining unit tends to have logical solutions to matters, which infact are not based on experience of the battle-field. Political/ TUism dwarfism is dangerous. In our work-places, TU's are still led by middle-to-bottom tier (=/< R200k pa) employees who do not understand certain matters, and are rough around the edges. The top-tier only attends when there's wage negotiations/ an issue that relates to them. Even, at my workplace,
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
Well said.
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Moffdat

I find it weird that you guys always agree on everything.
There's a saying we use in the legal field that says if two lawyers agree on a subject one of them is not thinking. I believe that is overly true in economics. So the part about you all share the same economic principals... yeah right! You don't relate in age experience or sense of humour!!! Leaves me with one very obvious option. It's either a cultural thing or Daniel is riding your coattails cause he's clearly the stup!d one
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
You want to answer or are we just going to ignore his general lack of upper brain function?
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MommaC

Moffdat

You seem to be taking only one story and extrapolating out. There are a lot of people on this site that I interact with and a lot of them who have very similar views to me. There are others who have different views but prove a great source of information as well as make me question my beliefs and see things from a different perspective.

Providing people come with thought through arguments and keep a civil tongue, I enjoy conversing with them all. It is only when the childishness creeps in that I lose interest and stop taking them seriously.
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Danielrjvvuren

Moffdat
Hows about we just agree to ignore each other in future? It will ease both our lives and we can comment without bickering like two old hags.
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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

Got a couple of minutes free until I have to start the bread for supper so - why not?
Cool having a ginger Zu1u on the forum :)
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
Hahah yes, but its taxing to contend with such things now. Yes I must also almost go to varsity. Have a few minutes so lets entertain it for 10 more minutes.
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Moffdat

Moffdat has come to the conclusion that he is speaking to the same person! you schizophrenic id!ot.
If there are two people one of you needs to get a brain! You boring retards i am through with.
Moffdat 1 - Single minded monotony 0.

Don't talk to me any more children you have nothing diverse to say
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Danielrjvvuren

MommaC
Can't admit defeat rather do the cowardice thing and insult, but I'm done I'm off to varsity. Enjoy feeding the hordes and good luck!
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MommaC

Danielrjvvuren

Whole clan is around tonight so it is going to be fun.
Enjoy and drive safe.
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mambaaai

SA needs some laws in place, in terms of the leaders and leadership of a group of people, who call a gathering, must be held accountable for the actions of the group or legal gathering to some extent. Including things like a set of monitors to control the group the leades have gathered the leaders also set the tone for the gathering, in this case tell the people no weapons are required or even allowed. and as leaders who would be accountable and responsible to send members back.... in addition it would also get leaders to sort things out over a table through constructive dialogue.....
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sgubhusenkwishi

Why are we sooo steriotype and only think we are clever when we admire the state, protecting the police and investors? Why dont we ask ourself the open questions, were these people demands for fair payments justified? of which the answer is yes.
Were this protected investers to pay people beyond the living standards? answer is no. If employers responded to workers demands, would they have prolong the strikes and behave like this? the answer is no. Are our police so ignorent of the workers demands? answer is no. Have the police been used against their people to silence them from ventilating their anger about their working conditions? the answer is obviously yes.Is it right to suppress people right and silence them into slavery submission to please the foreign investers? the answer is no.
We all obviously agree on this, without looking for people's weaknessess and capitalise on them, cause none of us is perfect here. So let us stop silly questions and statements like, people who are robbed of fair pay for hardwork, when they make their demand for better pay, should be smilling for oppressors, should be talking nicely, even if the capitalists are taking pierce, should be using love words, This are people who have wrk for their money, not asking for favour and who should be taken serious on their demands. They dont need to massage them for that.

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chava9005

Commission of inquiry is another way of saying lets sweep this horror under the carpet and move on.
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RobinH

Moffdat. Listen, you peevish little freak. Number one. I am not gay, although that is really the most pathetic attempt at insult you can come up with, as I have no issue with gay people, so it fails dismally, as does your putrid logic. Just accept that you are intellectually way out of your depth here and rather save face and keep quiet. You are a blot on an intelligent landscape. Dogmatic racist jerk.
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sgubhusenkwishi

Britain is one of the biggest countries and superpowers from the west always outspoken and partaking to wars against those countries that are known for human rights abuse, being backed by the british media. And it is amongst the front line in applying sunctions to such countries that are seen as deserving punishment for such atrocities and human rights suppression. But one wonders about its silence in this juncture and this incident in particular, more especially taking into consideration that,it is the biggest investor and share holder to this plantnum mine where this unspoken human right abuse has taken place, not only with slavery, to make things worse, where so many lives have been lost.
One would have expected that it proactively came amongst the first international countries, to say something as the world is watching with great concerns.
Its silence has a lot to be desired and some countries, through this wont stop shouting the double standards that this superpower. appears to be playing, based on this.
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